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mafaky
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Ex-TAM (Now LATAM Brasil) A332S

Wed Nov 30, 2016 7:42 am

Does anybody have solid knowledge as why TAM was not so pleased with their A332 ops and disposed this fleet while many of the frames were pretty young?
A veteran Electronics & Communications Engineer from Istanbul-Turkey, highly interested in civil and military aviation.
 
hkcanadaexpat
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Re: Ex-TAM (Now LATAM Brasil) A332S

Wed Nov 30, 2016 7:57 am

i believe they were all leased and when the economic downturn hit Brazil, they were the easiest frames to get rid of quickly. I don't think it had anything to do against the A330 per se.
 
LPSHobby
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Re: Ex-TAM (Now LATAM Brasil) A332S

Wed Nov 30, 2016 10:24 am

they were replaced by 767-300ERs, and this was after the formation of LATAM, so I think this was due to a stardardization politics as LAN has a big fleet of 767-300ERs
 
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Polot
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Re: Ex-TAM (Now LATAM Brasil) A332S

Wed Nov 30, 2016 11:39 am

hkcanadaexpat wrote:
i believe they were all leased and when the economic downturn hit Brazil, they were the easiest frames to get rid of quickly. I don't think it had anything to do against the A330 per se.

They were mostly retired before the downturn, and before the brand merger to LATAM.

While the A330s were "mostly young," a majority of the 767s are even younger. LAN had less need for them as 787s were delivered, so it made sense to shuffle them to TAM and eliminate the small A330 fleet, especially as many of 767s were only 2-3 years old.
 
steve6666
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Re: Ex-TAM (Now LATAM Brasil) A332S

Wed Nov 30, 2016 12:30 pm

Polot wrote:
They were mostly retired before the downturn, and before the brand merger to LATAM.


No, they were mostly retired from 2014 onwards, when Brazil was already in recession and even though that was before the brand merger started, it was several years after the merger of LAN and TAM was announced and largely executed. I think they may have been waiting for final competition clearance still in 2014, but the merger was a 2012 occurrence. Swapping the A330s for 767s has LAN written all over it.

http://www.airfleets.net/flottecie/TAM-history-a330.htm
A306, A318, A319, A320, A321, A332, A333, A343, A346, A388, B722, B732, B733, B734, B735, B73G, B738, B742, B744, B752, B753, B762, B763, B764, B772, B773, B77W, B787-8, BAe-146, Cessna Something, DC-10, E175, E195, ERJ145, MD-11, MD-80, PA Something
 
asuflyer
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Re: Ex-TAM (Now LATAM Brasil) A332S

Wed Nov 30, 2016 1:29 pm

At some airlines A332's are on the way out, and this includes even newer ones. Most notably this year with JJ and EK.
BR and QR have started retirements. AV has retired 2 and has 5 in storage some are NTU frames. TK has stored 11 A332's and will replace them with A333's.
 
Newbiepilot
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Re: Ex-TAM (Now LATAM Brasil) A332S

Wed Nov 30, 2016 1:47 pm

After buying the 777-300ERs TAM had too much capacity added too quickly along with a weakening international market. Smaller point to point routes were either not having very good load factors especially in business and first class or having really low yields. The lower trip costs for the 767s and smaller capacity was advantageous.

The retirement of the A330s was part of a bigger shift. After only a couple years in service, TAM overhauled the interiors on the 777s by removing first class and adding more economy seats. The 777s work well for high capacity routes like GRU-MIA, but the A330s were a bit big for smaller markets. With the A350s coming as well, there was simply too much capacity with the A330. The 767 helped allow more point to point flights and reduce seat count to protect yields.
 
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mafaky
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Re: Ex-TAM (Now LATAM Brasil) A332S

Wed Nov 30, 2016 3:58 pm

TK has stored 11 A332's and will replace them with A333's.


Slightly wrong: TK has already grounded and stored 15 (fifteen) a332s. All these frames have been on operational lease and include 8 ex-TAM frames, leased from AerCap... In fact 7 of these ex-TAM planes were recently configured to 24J255Y cabin layout by TK, during 2016. Now all 8 are available for sublease either "wet" or "dry". Fate/decision for the remaining 7 are yet unknown. 3 of these have been dry leased from Jet Airways with a rather rare cabin configuration (30J in 1-1-1 spacing) and 190Y.

In reality, TK never ever used these 15 frames for real long range flights; none seem to be equipped with that cabin crew rest module in the cargo bay.

The reason why they have been stored is not due to capacity/yield factors: purely due to the market weakening, especially for the winter timetable plus for reasons that Turkey is undergoing a harder time for air travellers in the international arena.

All or part of these 15 A332s seem to be replaced by 7 ex-Skymark A333s that TK will start receiving from the beginning of 2017.
A veteran Electronics & Communications Engineer from Istanbul-Turkey, highly interested in civil and military aviation.
 
EddieDude
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Re: Ex-TAM (Now LATAM Brasil) A332S

Wed Nov 30, 2016 4:53 pm

I think it made sense for LATAM to standardize its "smaller" long-haul fleet. The A332 is a great aircraft, but LA runs a really nice 763ER fleet, with nice interiors and a young average age. Even though it was sad to see the A332s leave, the silver lining is that the 2-3-2 configuration in Y is better for passengers than 2-4-2. I wonder if all of the 763ERs based out of Brazil have the same interiors as the Chile-based ones. I also wonder what LATAM is thinking in terms of replacement and timing. I would imagine that most current LATAM 763ER routes could be served in the future with 788s (but I am crossing my fingers that GRU-MEX will be A359 in due time hehe).
Upcoming flights:
April/May: AM MEX-SCL 788 (J), AM EZE-MEX 789 (J).
 
rg787
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Re: Ex-TAM (Now LATAM Brasil) A332S

Wed Nov 30, 2016 5:11 pm

EddieDude wrote:
I would imagine that most current LATAM 763ER routes could be served in the future with 788s (but I am crossing my fingers that GRU-MEX will be A359 in due time hehe).


Isn't the 788 a lot bigger than the 763? I imagine that markets such as BSB and CNF-MIA don't have capacity to sustain a 788, and those are the ones JJ tried in recent times with the 763. I know Brazil is in an economic downturn, but one day this will end and I feel point-to-point routes will be important, as we can see by AA and TP strategy in recent times flying to a lot of smaller cities.
 
EddieDude
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Re: Ex-TAM (Now LATAM Brasil) A332S

Wed Nov 30, 2016 6:51 pm

rg787 wrote:
Isn't the 788 a lot bigger than the 763?


Well, it certainly offers way more cargo capacity, but in terms of passenger capacity, it is perhaps only marginally bigger, and in the end it all comes down to how the different airlines that operate those planes configure their cabins (number of classes, type of business seats, seat pitch in economy, etc.).

Plus, the negatives of "unsold seats" when upgrading from a 763ER to a 788 are offset by the substantial fuel efficiency advantage of the 788. I think many carriers have found that the 788 is a natural replacement for the 763ER while also improving range, cargo and cost capabilities. AM's entire 762ER and 763ER has been replaced with 788s and AM seems to be ultrahappy with them.

Finally, the 788 is quite similar in terms of seating capacity to the A332 and we just established that the JJ A332s were replaced with 763ERs not because they had too many seats but because LATAM thought it would be more efficient to standardize its "smaller" widebody fleet. Therefore, replacing the 763ERs with 788s would simply be reinstating the seating capacity previously offered by the A332s.

In short, I think it would be a smart move in the future. That said, if on average the LATAM 763ERs are young, who knows how long it will take before these birds need to be replaced and what the circumstances will be at that point in time (growth of demand, growth of LATAM's passenger numbers, newer available aircraft for these missions, LATAM's financials, etc.).
Upcoming flights:
April/May: AM MEX-SCL 788 (J), AM EZE-MEX 789 (J).
 
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Polot
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Re: Ex-TAM (Now LATAM Brasil) A332S

Wed Nov 30, 2016 6:54 pm

There is no smaller modern widebody than the 788/A332[/8] (recognizing that the pax 763 is effectively dead at this point).

So currently in the future when LATAM wants to replace the 763s they will have to go bigger (788/A338) or smaller (narrowbody) unless Boeing or Airbus launch a new product.
 
rg787
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Re: Ex-TAM (Now LATAM Brasil) A332S

Thu Dec 01, 2016 11:34 am

EddieDude wrote:
rg787 wrote:
Isn't the 788 a lot bigger than the 763?


Well, it certainly offers way more cargo capacity, but in terms of passenger capacity, it is perhaps only marginally bigger, and in the end it all comes down to how the different airlines that operate those planes configure their cabins (number of classes, type of business seats, seat pitch in economy, etc.).

Plus, the negatives of "unsold seats" when upgrading from a 763ER to a 788 are offset by the substantial fuel efficiency advantage of the 788. I think many carriers have found that the 788 is a natural replacement for the 763ER while also improving range, cargo and cost capabilities. AM's entire 762ER and 763ER has been replaced with 788s and AM seems to be ultrahappy with them.

Finally, the 788 is quite similar in terms of seating capacity to the A332 and we just established that the JJ A332s were replaced with 763ERs not because they had too many seats but because LATAM thought it would be more efficient to standardize its "smaller" widebody fleet. Therefore, replacing the 763ERs with 788s would simply be reinstating the seating capacity previously offered by the A332s.

In short, I think it would be a smart move in the future. That said, if on average the LATAM 763ERs are young, who knows how long it will take before these birds need to be replaced and what the circumstances will be at that point in time (growth of demand, growth of LATAM's passenger numbers, newer available aircraft for these missions, LATAM's financials, etc.).


At the higher end of the spectrum I agree with you, 788 would be a very good replacement on some routes, mainly the ones leaving GRU. I still have the opinion that the 763 is better for the lower end, those routes that cannot fill a 788 profitably, but can do so on a 763. I remember once it was said that the 788 has a whole column of seats more than the 763, that is a lot of seats.

Maybe, as the 763 are pretty young and LAN (therefore LATAM) has loads of them, we will see the A358 replacing the 763 on the routes previously flown by the A332 that need higher capacity, and the 763 being used on lower capacity, P2P and regional routes in south america. That leaves LATAM with a great capability to adjust capacity to demand and time to wait for the possible (probable?) MOM.
 
Newbiepilot
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Re: Ex-TAM (Now LATAM Brasil) A332S

Thu Dec 01, 2016 1:57 pm

There most likely will not be an A358 and such a plane would be worse than a 788. Airbus is building the A330neo because the A350 was not going to compete with the 787 since it is closer in size to the 777. If you were referring to the A359 then yes it will replace some of the routes that the A332s once flew. I think we will eventually see 787s in Brazil and A350s in Chile.

I think LATAM would be a perfect customer for a MOM plane. That would be enough range to connect any two cities in South America. It also could fly anywhere in the United States from Lima and even make it from Brazil to the United States. The 767-300ER works well in the LATAM network. The 788 is likely a good extension, but I could see interest in something smaller.
 
AirbusOnly
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Re: Ex-TAM (Now LATAM Brasil) A332S

Thu Dec 01, 2016 2:27 pm

LPSHobby wrote:
they were replaced by 767-300ERs,


so a big step backward in technology and effenciency..
 
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Polot
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Re: Ex-TAM (Now LATAM Brasil) A332S

Thu Dec 01, 2016 2:35 pm

AirbusOnly wrote:
LPSHobby wrote:
they were replaced by 767-300ERs,


so a big step backward in technology and effenciency..

Technology yes. Efficiency no if you don't need the A332's extra payload capability (or size). The 767 is not a gas guzzler (compared to the A330, obviously it is compared to the new generation of jets), it just can't lift as much as far as the A330.
 
TW
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Re: Ex-TAM (Now LATAM Brasil) A332S

Thu Dec 01, 2016 2:56 pm

Actually the 788 has more seats than the 332 (for LATAM)

B763 (30C191Y) = 221
A332 (4F36J183Y) = 223
B788 (30J217Y) = 247
 
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Polot
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Re: Ex-TAM (Now LATAM Brasil) A332S

Thu Dec 01, 2016 3:06 pm

TW wrote:
Actually the 788 has more seats than the 332 (for LATAM)

B763 (30C191Y) = 221
A332 (4F36J183Y) = 223
B788 (30J217Y) = 247


Granted that is because of the A332's more premium heavy layout. If they had stuck around F would have eventually been removed (like on the 77Ws) and it would have had a seat count similar to the 788.

LATAM Brazil currently has:

Small C (30), small Y (763s).
Small C (30), large Y (A359s- has almost as many Y seats as the 77Ws).
Large C (56), large Y (77W).

It wouldn't surprise me if the A35Ks were Large C, smaller Y (TAM's 77Ws are 10Y, so the A35Ks will seat less unless they gut the C cabin)
 
Newbiepilot
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Re: Ex-TAM (Now LATAM Brasil) A332S

Thu Dec 01, 2016 3:56 pm

Polot wrote:
AirbusOnly wrote:
LPSHobby wrote:
they were replaced by 767-300ERs,


so a big step backward in technology and effenciency..

Technology yes. Efficiency no if you don't need the A332's extra payload capability (or size). The 767 is not a gas guzzler (compared to the A330, obviously it is compared to the new generation of jets), it just can't lift as much as far as the A330.


As far as engine technology goes, the CF6-80C2 on the 767-300ER and PW4170 on the A330-200 aren't that different in technology. The original 767-200s had dinosaur engines pre FADEC, but the 767-300ER uses a similar technology to the A330. The airframe side of the A330-200 is more advanced and it has a much bigger wing. The A330-200 has a big payload and capacity advantage, which is attractive for many airlines. However that payload advantage is not needed flying from Brazil to the United States since it is only 4000 miles and the capacity advantage isn't that useful with Brazil in a recession and limited demand to the United States outside of the core markets of MIA and JFK to GRU and GIG. The A330 was better for Europe, but now they can fly 777s and A350s to Europe. I think TAM wanted a plane which could fly to Europe and the United States when they bought the A332. Neither the 767 nor the A333 are optimized for a 6000 mile flight to Europe. I think that is why the A332s were the best choice.

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