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UA considering converting some of its A35K order to A359 and/or A330

Wed Nov 30, 2016 7:41 pm

Aloha All,

It appears UA is thinking about converting the 35K's to smaller frames. The article specifically mentions the 330 series. I wonder if they aren't looking into the 321 as well.

It appears they're open to the C Series and in the Mad Max if Boeing decides to build it.

Article below:
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... o.headline
Last edited by SQ22 on Sat Dec 03, 2016 6:04 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Reason: Clarified to some instead of whole order
 
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LAXintl
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Re: UA Narrowbody Airbus Order

Wed Nov 30, 2016 7:47 pm

As article mentions they are considering converting the 35K order by going back to the A350-900 which can fly longer routes, or the smaller A330s.

The narrowbody discussion is unrelated and has to do around what to do with pending 737 order and possible interest in the -10X.
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Re: UA Narrowbody Airbus Order

Wed Nov 30, 2016 7:48 pm

As far as I can see, the article says that UA might or might not convert some of the A350-1000 to either A330s or to A359s.
Then it says that US might convert some of their deferred B737 to other B737 models.

I can't see any mentioning of a Airbus nb order from UA in the article?
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Re: UA Narrowbody Airbus Order

Wed Nov 30, 2016 7:49 pm

The article says they are looking ta converting them to smaller long haul models. I suspect that means the A359, I don't see much of a role for the A330neo in the fleet since they have no A330ceos/A340s and quite a large 787 fleet.

Not necessarily a surprise. With all the 77Ws coming in, and what looks like softness in the global economy, UA management is probably starting to second guess having 35 A35Ks coming in (they would have 49 A35Ks/77Ws...they only have 20 747s today).
Last edited by Polot on Wed Nov 30, 2016 7:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
ikramerica
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Re: UA Narrowbody Airbus Order

Wed Nov 30, 2016 7:50 pm

Can't understand A330. New type, even if similar pilot group to A350/A320, when they already have 787, A350, 767, 777 (747s leaving soon). What does a fifth WB type offer them other than complication?
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Dutchy
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Re: UA Narrowbody Airbus Order

Wed Nov 30, 2016 7:50 pm

That's surprising. Seems they don't know what they want or need.
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Re: UA Narrowbody Airbus Order

Wed Nov 30, 2016 7:52 pm

Thunderboltdrgn wrote:
As far as I can see, the article says that UA might or might not convert some of the A350-1000 to either A330s or to A359s.
Then it says that US might convert some of their deferred B737 to other B737 models.

I can't see any mentioning of a Airbus nb order from UA in the article?


OP was confused. Basically the talk is possibly converting the A350-1000 orders to the A359 & possibly ordering the A330 (800/900) models as well as placing an order for the 737 Max 10 for the deferred 73G orders.
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Re: UA Narrowbody Airbus Order

Wed Nov 30, 2016 7:55 pm

A359-900 and later versions of 737 Max are good ideas. The last thing United needs are A330-900's. UA has many 777 and 787 already which would fit nicely with the A350's. A330ceo or neo are based on old technology which 787 could do better. Why is United messing around with it A350 order when that is what they need, remember the 747 are collecting social security and Medicare.
 
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Re: UA Narrowbody Airbus Order

Wed Nov 30, 2016 7:57 pm

jfk777 wrote:
Why is United messing around with it A350 order when that is what they need, remember the 747 are collecting social security and Medicare.

Since converting to the A35K UA has also ordered 14 77Ws to help get rid of the 747s even faster though. They could probably still use some A35Ks, but 35 of them?
 
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Re: UA Narrowbody Airbus Order

Wed Nov 30, 2016 7:58 pm

Dutchy wrote:
That's surprising. Seems they don't know what they want or need.


Probably a mix of not knowing what they want and also wanting to review major aircraft orders that were placed almost entirely by executives that are no longer there.

All I learned in that article is that UA has recently ordered or is considering an order of the 73G, 738MAX, 739MAX, 737-10MAX, 77W, CSeries, A35K, A359, and A330neo. They probably have taken a whiff at the new A320s as well, though it's not mentioned there. Still, that's a lot of different planes to consider!!
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Dutchy
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Re: UA Narrowbody Airbus Order

Wed Nov 30, 2016 8:02 pm

intotheair wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
That's surprising. Seems they don't know what they want or need.


Probably a mix of not knowing what they want and also wanting to review major aircraft orders that were placed almost entirely by executives that are no longer there.

All I learned in that article is that UA has recently ordered or is considering an order of the 73G, 738MAX, 739MAX, 737-10MAX, 77W, CSeries, A35K, A359, and A330neo. They probably have taken a whiff at the new A320s as well, though it's not mentioned there. Still, that's a lot of different planes to consider!!


Indeed, lot of different segment, although I was pleased to read that the CS-series seems to have a fighting chance as well.
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Re: UA Airbus Order

Wed Nov 30, 2016 8:02 pm

I wouldnt be surprised if the want to drop out of the A350 entirely. Can they though? Thats the 12.4 billion dollar question.
 
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Re: UA Airbus Order

Wed Nov 30, 2016 8:05 pm

The 280t a359 would be a ideal growth aircraft for some of the current 789 routes. A small jump in capacity and payload.
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Re: UA Airbus Order

Wed Nov 30, 2016 8:08 pm

Maybe A321NEO/ LR. They have old 757s up for replacement. They probably need them badly, and everybody knows. Still they want early slots and good prices. Better put everything you have / can think of on the table. I wouldn't consider their 737-9 order solid.
Last edited by keesje on Wed Nov 30, 2016 8:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: UA Airbus Order

Wed Nov 30, 2016 8:10 pm

OneSexyL1011 wrote:
I wouldnt be surprised if the want to drop out of the A350 entirely. Can they though? Thats the 12.4 billion dollar question.


Sure. Airbus would happily keep the deposits and sell those slots to some other airline.
 
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Re: UA Narrowbody Airbus Order

Wed Nov 30, 2016 8:10 pm

Dutchy wrote:
That's surprising. Seems they don't know what they want or need.


Pretty typical UA management. It's a revolving door of internal conflict.
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Re: UA Airbus Order

Wed Nov 30, 2016 8:11 pm

I think this is simply the new guy from AA ( Scott Kirby) reviewing all of UA's
current and future orders.
 
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Re: UA Narrowbody Airbus Order

Wed Nov 30, 2016 8:20 pm

Varsity1 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
That's surprising. Seems they don't know what they want or need.


Pretty typical UA management. It's a revolving door of internal conflict.


I think it's a new President and CFO with a more conservative financial view. These are long term decisions and it's smart for them to think through fleet planning.
 
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Re: UA Airbus Order

Wed Nov 30, 2016 8:21 pm

ap305 wrote:
The 280t a359 would be a ideal growth aircraft for some of the current 789 routes. A small jump in capacity and payload.


Interesting. Or maybe they see this as an opportunity to gradually replace 767s with A330s as DL is doing? DL seems to be pleased with the A330 as a TATL hauler. UA did an about-face on the 763 retirement schedule, but surely they won't keep those forever?
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Re: UA Airbus Order

Wed Nov 30, 2016 8:29 pm

intotheair wrote:
ap305 wrote:
The 280t a359 would be a ideal growth aircraft for some of the current 789 routes. A small jump in capacity and payload.


Interesting. Or maybe they see this as an opportunity to gradually replace 767s with A330s as DL is doing? DL seems to be pleased with the A330 as a TATL hauler. UA did an about-face on the 763 retirement schedule, but surely they won't keep those forever?


DL also has no 787s and an existing fleet of A330s however, and if we want to be real nitpicky has yet to replace any international 767s with anything, A330 or otherwise (and still technically has 18 788s on order).
 
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Re: UA Airbus Order

Wed Nov 30, 2016 8:32 pm

Polot wrote:
intotheair wrote:
ap305 wrote:
The 280t a359 would be a ideal growth aircraft for some of the current 789 routes. A small jump in capacity and payload.


Interesting. Or maybe they see this as an opportunity to gradually replace 767s with A330s as DL is doing? DL seems to be pleased with the A330 as a TATL hauler. UA did an about-face on the 763 retirement schedule, but surely they won't keep those forever?


DL also has no 787s and an existing fleet of A330s however, and if we want to be real nitpicky has yet to replace any international 767s with anything, A330 or otherwise (and still technically has 18 788s on order).


Fair enough. But the point still stands that according to Bloomberg, UA is at least considering the A330 in addition to the A359, and my point is that it's possible UA could see value in acquiring A330s, a plane that is as far as I can tell ideal for TATL runs. Most of UA's 787s are on TPAC routes, only a handful on TATL ones.
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Re: UA Airbus Order

Wed Nov 30, 2016 8:38 pm

keesje wrote:
Maybe A321NEO/ LR. They have old 757s up for replacement. They probably need them badly, and everybody knows. Still they want early slots and good prices. Better put everything you have / can think of on the table. I wouldn't consider their 737-9 order solid.


Especially with Scott Kirby on board now. I wouldn't be at all surprised if UA
re-worked the A35J order to include some new A321NEO's and possibly some A359ULR's.
 
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Re: UA Airbus Order

Wed Nov 30, 2016 8:44 pm

Well, for now, the production list says that MSN194,222,237 are United's first A35Ks.

https://sites.google.com/site/a350xwbpr ... ction-list

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Re: UA Airbus Order

Wed Nov 30, 2016 8:46 pm

In short, United is contemplating almost every airplane that's manufactured in the western hemisphere.

The article says Boeing is getting serious about a 737-10. If they go the option of hanging the Leap 1A on it, how much of a thrust bump and range addition would that be? With the slump of TATL traffic and Brexit, (yeah, someone had to say it), would they really need the capacity of a 757 or A321LR for secondary Euro cities? This is where I think the 737-7 and even the CSeries would fit nicely. It'd also be easier to move around the network if/when TATL traffic comes back up also.

Stitch said in a previous thread that the 787-10 can do 90% of what the A359s does, hence the bump up to the -1000, unless they want the -900 to use as a 77E replacement.

And the A330 makes no sense at all. UA is all about frequency in the TATL market. If they need a smaller widebody, the easiest thing to do would to order more 788s.

Also, what's the utilization rate look like for the Micronesia fleet compared to the mainland? Are there any plans for that fleet? Replacements? Additions?
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Re: UA Airbus Order

Wed Nov 30, 2016 8:55 pm

Sooner787 wrote:
keesje wrote:
Maybe A321NEO/ LR. They have old 757s up for replacement. They probably need them badly, and everybody knows. Still they want early slots and good prices. Better put everything you have / can think of on the table. I wouldn't consider their 737-9 order solid.


Especially with Scott Kirby on board now. I wouldn't be at all surprised if UA
re-worked the A35J order to include some new A321NEO's and possibly some A359ULR's.


Well the A321 is one airplane not mentioned in the article. If the 737-10 doesn't end up happening, we could see it.

I think there is more interest in examining the Airbus widebody order. Between the 777-300ER and A350-1000, that is a lot of widebody airplanes with over 300 seats. I can see United shifting some A350s to A350-900s. With more and more point to point routes, the smaller planes might be beneficial. The A350-900 in long range configuration might be better for some of the longer flights like LAX-MEL, EWR-HKG/BOM and SFO-SIN. 787-9s or 77Ws can fly those routes, but it might be nice to have the A359 which fits nicely in between in size and is a great long range plane. Having both the A351 and A359 would add some capacity flexibility.

A330neo orders would shock me. With the huge 787 fleet, I struggle to see what purpose they would serve. Replacing 767s with A330s could work but I don't think a fleet of four widebody airplanes is needed. The 787, 777 and A350 can adequately cover the entire network.
 
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UA considering downgauging A35K orders into A330 and/or A359

Wed Nov 30, 2016 9:03 pm

As stated by CFO Andrew Levy:

The airline may convert some of the Airbus A350-1000s to smaller long-haul models, Chief Financial Officer Andrew Levy said in an interview at United’s Chicago headquarters.

"These fleet decision are big decisions, they affect your balance sheet for a long time,” Levy, 47, said in the interview. “These are big capital decisions that you have to live with for a really long time, so you need to make sure you get it right."

http://viewfromthewing.boardingarea.com ... ft-orders/


.....funnily enough, it wouldn't be the first A330s that UA has actually owned. ;)
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Re: UA Airbus Order

Wed Nov 30, 2016 9:09 pm

Newbiepilot wrote:
Sooner787 wrote:
keesje wrote:
Maybe A321NEO/ LR. They have old 757s up for replacement. They probably need them badly, and everybody knows. Still they want early slots and good prices. Better put everything you have / can think of on the table. I wouldn't consider their 737-9 order solid.


Especially with Scott Kirby on board now. I wouldn't be at all surprised if UA
re-worked the A35J order to include some new A321NEO's and possibly some A359ULR's.


Well the A321 is one airplane not mentioned in the article. If the 737-10 doesn't end up happening, we could see it.

I think there is more interest in examining the Airbus widebody order. Between the 777-300ER and A350-1000, that is a lot of widebody airplanes with over 300 seats. I can see United shifting some A350s to A350-900s. With more and more point to point routes, the smaller planes might be beneficial. The A350-900 in long range configuration might be better for some of the longer flights like LAX-MEL, EWR-HKG/BOM and SFO-SIN. 787-9s or 77Ws can fly those routes, but it might be nice to have the A359 which fits nicely in between in size and is a great long range plane. Having both the A351 and A359 would add some capacity flexibility.

A330neo orders would shock me. With the huge 787 fleet, I struggle to see what purpose they would serve. Replacing 767s with A330s could work but I don't think a fleet of four widebody airplanes is needed. The 787, 777 and A350 can adequately cover the entire network.


Ordering A330(NEO) as a new type would indeed be odd with all the 787s they have. United is in a position where they can factually pull the plug on the 737-9. Airbus would hate it if they cancel the A350-1000s. It seems there's some powerplay, UA probably have pretty a good idea what they want, probably the best of both worlds. Now they are creating uncertainty to get the best prices/ conditions..
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Re: UA Airbus Order

Wed Nov 30, 2016 9:17 pm

UA is reevaluating what the evolving world market is indicating they need now vs what they thought was needed before. They're looking at all the options on the table (old and new) sorting out what will work best for them going forward.
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Re: UA considering converting A351 order to A359 and/or A330

Wed Nov 30, 2016 9:34 pm

I would not be surprised to see a few A350 900 ULRs in the mx, to enable more effective competition with SQ
 
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Re: UA Airbus Order

Wed Nov 30, 2016 9:40 pm

keesje wrote:
Newbiepilot wrote:
Sooner787 wrote:

Especially with Scott Kirby on board now. I wouldn't be at all surprised if UA
re-worked the A35J order to include some new A321NEO's and possibly some A359ULR's.


Well the A321 is one airplane not mentioned in the article. If the 737-10 doesn't end up happening, we could see it.

I think there is more interest in examining the Airbus widebody order. Between the 777-300ER and A350-1000, that is a lot of widebody airplanes with over 300 seats. I can see United shifting some A350s to A350-900s. With more and more point to point routes, the smaller planes might be beneficial. The A350-900 in long range configuration might be better for some of the longer flights like LAX-MEL, EWR-HKG/BOM and SFO-SIN. 787-9s or 77Ws can fly those routes, but it might be nice to have the A359 which fits nicely in between in size and is a great long range plane. Having both the A351 and A359 would add some capacity flexibility.

A330neo orders would shock me. With the huge 787 fleet, I struggle to see what purpose they would serve. Replacing 767s with A330s could work but I don't think a fleet of four widebody airplanes is needed. The 787, 777 and A350 can adequately cover the entire network.


Ordering A330(NEO) as a new type would indeed be odd with all the 787s they have. United is in a position where they can factually pull the plug on the 737-9. Airbus would hate it if they cancel the A350-1000s. It seems there's some powerplay, UA probably have pretty a good idea what they want, probably the best of both worlds. Now they are creating uncertainty to get the best prices/ conditions..



Don't think Airbus would mind if the order was changed to A359 or A330NEO, I would guess the A359 would be looked at. Although what missions is the A359 better at then the B789? I mean they are so close in performance
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Re: UA Airbus Order

Wed Nov 30, 2016 9:41 pm

A330NEO could be a 777-222A replacement for UA, and also some of the 777-222ERs. 13 of the 777-222As were delivered in 1995/96; 12 of the 777-222ERs were delivered in 1997. Now 19-21 years isn't that old when IAG are extending the lives of BA's 777s to be in service for 30 years. However, UA may think that a number of A330NEOs could be ideal for TATL flights from ORD/EWR/IAD rather than a 777. Plus these wouldn't all come on stream at the same time, so a number of those 777s could be getting on for twenty-five years of service when they do get replaced.
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Re: UA Airbus Order

Wed Nov 30, 2016 9:43 pm

TWA772LR wrote:
Stitch said in a previous thread that the 787-10 can do 90% of what the A359s does, hence the bump up to the -1000, unless they want the -900 to use as a 77E replacement.


IMO 777-200ER replacement is exactly what they're planning for the "smaller long-haul models" which would be taken instead of the A350-1000s. And the A350-900 would be a near-perfect replacement for the 77Es with huge gains in efficiency. The A35K is a pretty big jump in capacity from anything in the UA fleet apart from the 77Ws and 744s (which are to be replaced by the 77Ws) -- and obviously new 77Ws aren't leaving any time soon. With the prospects for international long-haul traffic looking murky in pretty much all regions from the U.S., it makes some sense to try to mitigate capacity risk down the road.

keesje wrote:
Maybe A321NEO/ LR. They have old 757s up for replacement. They probably need them badly, and everybody knows.


The ex-CO 757s (which are the ones needed for the thin transatlantic markets) are relatively new compared to the ex-UA aircraft which have mostly exited the fleet already. And it helps that the CO 757s were on the transatlantic sectors, racking up a modest number of cycles considering their age in years. The 757-200 fleet can likely soldier on well into the 2020s so UA has some time to decide on a replacement. I'm pretty skeptical that the A321neolrxyzpdqrotflmao works well as a 757 replacement for UA in the transatlantic market given that the UA routes from EWR do tend to operate at the very edge of the 757's capabilities and the A321 doesn't quite match that. I think they could make it work for the British Isles and Iberian Peninsula but even then winter operations could be problematic.

Polot wrote:
I suspect that means the A359, I don't see much of a role for the A330neo in the fleet since they have no A330ceos/A340s and quite a large 787 fleet.


I only think they'd go for the A330neo if they got a screaming deal on it -- maintenance commonality would absolutely favor the A359 which is also likely to retain higher residual value. I'm not convinced the A330neo will be offered for an extended period of time unless the widebody jet market picks up significantly or Airbus offers fire sale prices to shift aircraft. With 63 net widebody orders in the first ten months of the year, the market hasn't been exactly robust for Airbus, and the 777+787 only have racked up 85 units net (the 747 & 767 have shown some life in cargo & military but those programs are in their twilight years). Unless Airbus is getting huge margins on the A330neo, the A350 is the future for that segment at the company.
 
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Re: UA Narrowbody Airbus Order

Wed Nov 30, 2016 9:45 pm

Polot wrote:
The article says they are looking ta converting them to smaller long haul models.


Before people are getting too excited, the article says some of the aircraft on order may be altered (not the entire order):

The airline may convert some of the Airbus A350-1000s to smaller long-haul models, Chief Financial Officer Andrew Levy said in an interview at United’s Chicago headquarters. United also is considering the so-called Max 10X, a stretch of Boeing’s largest 737, to replace some of the single-aisle jet orders it recently deferred as part of a cost-savings push.


I can see UA operating a mix of A350-1000s and A350-900s.
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Re: UA Airbus Order

Wed Nov 30, 2016 9:50 pm

ScottB wrote:
744s (which are to be replaced by the 77Ws)

No they aren't. The A35K was to replace the 744s, and for all we know, still may.

The 77Ws, at least initially, are specifically intended to upgauge current 77E routes at EWR.
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Re: UA Airbus Order

Wed Nov 30, 2016 10:03 pm

FlyCaledonian wrote:
A330NEO could be a 777-222A replacement for UA, and also some of the 777-222ERs. 13 of the 777-222As were delivered in 1995/96; 12 of the 777-222ERs were delivered in 1997. Now 19-21 years isn't that old when IAG are extending the lives of BA's 777s to be in service for 30 years. However, UA may think that a number of A330NEOs could be ideal for TATL flights from ORD/EWR/IAD rather than a 777. Plus these wouldn't all come on stream at the same time, so a number of those 777s could be getting on for twenty-five years of service when they do get replaced.

That was my thought too.

I seem to recall some of the first 772A off the line had some kind of cycle restriction on various structures. As they are also domestic aircraft at UA their cycles are probably getting higher than comparable later -ER versions, so UAL may be looking at the ideal replacement for the first 777 tranche. A 787 of whatever flavour might not be it, especially on price grounds.

The A350 takes care of the longer haul, higher capacity need and the A330NEO medium range routes that it is ideal for. The 788 and 789 can then sweep up the 763ER sector handily.
 
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Re: UA considering converting A35K order to A359 and/or A330

Wed Nov 30, 2016 10:38 pm

UA is a 78X customer. That aircraft is ideal for TATL flight and would yield higher margins [UA's stated goal] than the A330neo while offering commonality and fleet flexibility. All the neo brings is a lower purchase price but it is worse for UA in nearly every other metric.

The A359 does make sense as it could upgauge 789 flights or improve efficiency on 77E flights that aren't upgauged to 77Ws. I do still see a role for some A351s to replace the 744s but 35 does appear to be excessive given UA's preference to resist capacity growth.

I could see some A321LRs too if Boeing's 737-10x doesn't have TATL range. That EWR hub could benefit from some of those. Notice the CFO did not say widebody aircraft when saying which aircraft they were looking at. The article references 'long haul'. I could see TATL being coined as long haul.

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Re: UA considering converting A35K order to A359 and/or A330

Wed Nov 30, 2016 10:58 pm

Adding the A350-900 could be used to commence 772/77E replacing. Having a 787/A350/77W fleet isn't a terrible strategy, but adding the A330neo would complicate things further, the way I see it, and UA doesn't need it right now. Converting some A35Js to A359s is a fine idea, and if they need additional units, exercise the options they have.

Now, on the topic of narrowbodies, I'm still not convinced that the 737 MAX 10 would be as useful to UA as the A321neo would be, and that's assuming if it's launched. The A321neo unlocks a lot of potential for UA, including, but not limited to, P.S. service, replacing domestic 757/767 service, Hawaii, and EWR-TATL.

The 73G should then be converted to the 737 MAX 8 and should be used to replace the oldest A320s.

I
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MIflyer12
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Re: UA considering converting A351 order to A359 and/or A330

Wed Nov 30, 2016 11:32 pm

JerseyFlyer wrote:
I would not be surprised to see a few A350 900 ULRs in the mx, to enable more effective competition with SQ


That's the thing: We don't know if they want longer range for yet more ULH flying, or if they want fewer seats (fearing a relative weakening of long-haul demand). UA's recent earnings conference pointing to refocus on domestic flying suggests to me it may be the latter.
 
Tedd
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Re: UA considering converting A35K order to A359 and/or A330

Wed Nov 30, 2016 11:38 pm

Interesting post. Seems the consensus is the A339 isn`t a good idea. While price is mentioned in it`s favour,
what about availability? Is it possible that UA may be able to get them earlier, & that this may be attractive to
them?
 
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TWA772LR
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Re: UA considering converting A35K order to A359 and/or A330

Wed Nov 30, 2016 11:48 pm

Boeing778X wrote:

Now, on the topic of narrowbodies, I'm still not convinced that the 737 MAX 10 would be as useful to UA as the A321neo would be, and that's assuming if it's launched. The A321neo unlocks a lot of potential for UA, including, but not limited to, P.S. service, replacing domestic 757/767 service, Hawaii, and EWR-TATL.


I

A MAX 10 would still be longer than the A321neo. And the present 739ER fleet does everything a domestic 757 can except get out of SNA or EGE, and the TATL flights. Europe in the foreseeable future will be on the decline. A smaller aircraft is what will be needed for the secondary and tertiary markets. Once the UK invokes Article 50, the financial power of Europe will switch to Germany, so the long 757 routes like CGN and TXL will be able to handle a 763 from EWR, but the bulk of the TATL 757 routes (cough UK cough) will need a downgauge. Others like OSL and ARL, well, we'll just have to see how future plays out. The -7 MAX would be of great use to the UK and other cities in Europe with its 4402 statue mile range (per wiki), even IAH to deep South America could see a boost.

Honestly, I don't see why people insist on having a p.s.-like service on the A321. The 739 would do the job just as well.
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VC10er
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Re: UA considering converting A35K order to A359 and/or A330

Wed Nov 30, 2016 11:51 pm

So, "potentially" the 737 MAX 10 would be the new p.s. transcon aircraft? My first thought is what First Class BED seats go into a 737? I ask because I fly p.s. often and would welcome a fresh start, even if they kept the 757 for p.s. - it could use a spruce up (especially for UA who sort of invented this premium transcon thing)
Last edited by VC10er on Wed Nov 30, 2016 11:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Stitch
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Re: UA considering converting A35K order to A359 and/or A330

Wed Nov 30, 2016 11:53 pm

TWA772LR wrote:
And the present 739ER fleet does everything a domestic 757 can except get out of SNA or EGE, and the TATL flights.


Well it can get out of SNA since I left on an AS 739ER from there earlier this month. :)

VC10er wrote:
So, "potentially" the 737 MAX 10 would be the new p.s. transcon aircraft? My first thought is what First Class BED seats go into a 737?


Are B6's or AA's seats patented? They'd fit.
 
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Re: UA considering converting A35K order to A359 and/or A330

Wed Nov 30, 2016 11:58 pm

VC10er wrote:
So, "potentially" the 737 MAX 10 would be the new p.s. transcon aircraft? My first thought is what First Class BED seats go into a 737? I ask because I fly p.s. often and would welcome a fresh start, even if they kept the 757 for p.s. - it could use a spruce up (especially for UA who sort of invented this premium transcon thing)

he 757 and 737 have the same cross section, so yes.
Stitch wrote:
Well it can get out of SNA since I left on an AS 739ER from there earlier this month.

I bet that was one loooong SNA take off roll!
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Re: UA considering converting A35K order to A359 and/or A330

Thu Dec 01, 2016 12:19 am

TWA772LR wrote:
Boeing778X wrote:

Now, on the topic of narrowbodies, I'm still not convinced that the 737 MAX 10 would be as useful to UA as the A321neo would be, and that's assuming if it's launched. The A321neo unlocks a lot of potential for UA, including, but not limited to, P.S. service, replacing domestic 757/767 service, Hawaii, and EWR-TATL.


I

A MAX 10 would still be longer than the A321neo. And the present 739ER fleet does everything a domestic 757 can except get out of SNA or EGE, and the TATL flights. Europe in the foreseeable future will be on the decline. A smaller aircraft is what will be needed for the secondary and tertiary markets. Once the UK invokes Article 50, the financial power of Europe will switch to Germany, so the long 757 routes like CGN and TXL will be able to handle a 763 from EWR, but the bulk of the TATL 757 routes (cough UK cough) will need a downgauge. Others like OSL and ARL, well, we'll just have to see how future plays out. The -7 MAX would be of great use to the UK and other cities in Europe with its 4402 statue mile range (per wiki), even IAH to deep South America could see a boost.

Honestly, I don't see why people insist on having a p.s.-like service on the A321. The 739 would do the job just as well.


I don't think the MAX being longer than the A321neo is particularly a good thing. Like you said, the 739ER taking off from shorter fields is a chore in itself. The A321neo can also hold pallets, whereas, the 737 cannot.

What would help the MAX 10 is if it had longer wings, taller gear and uprated engines. If those issues were rectified, sure. As far as I know, the MAX will be a stretch.

I would also ask why not the A321 for P.S. service? AA and B6 are doing Transcons with A321s now, and from the looks of it, with far better products too. UA is introducing Polaris. Perhaps they should unveil a fresh Transcon service!
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Re: UA considering converting A35K order to A359 and/or A330

Thu Dec 01, 2016 12:38 am

Boeing778X wrote:
TWA772LR wrote:
Boeing778X wrote:

Now, on the topic of narrowbodies, I'm still not convinced that the 737 MAX 10 would be as useful to UA as the A321neo would be, and that's assuming if it's launched. The A321neo unlocks a lot of potential for UA, including, but not limited to, P.S. service, replacing domestic 757/767 service, Hawaii, and EWR-TATL.


I

A MAX 10 would still be longer than the A321neo. And the present 739ER fleet does everything a domestic 757 can except get out of SNA or EGE, and the TATL flights. Europe in the foreseeable future will be on the decline. A smaller aircraft is what will be needed for the secondary and tertiary markets. Once the UK invokes Article 50, the financial power of Europe will switch to Germany, so the long 757 routes like CGN and TXL will be able to handle a 763 from EWR, but the bulk of the TATL 757 routes (cough UK cough) will need a downgauge. Others like OSL and ARL, well, we'll just have to see how future plays out. The -7 MAX would be of great use to the UK and other cities in Europe with its 4402 statue mile range (per wiki), even IAH to deep South America could see a boost.

Honestly, I don't see why people insist on having a p.s.-like service on the A321. The 739 would do the job just as well.


I don't think the MAX being longer than the A321neo is particularly a good thing. Like you said, the 739ER taking off from shorter fields is a chore in itself. The A321neo can also hold pallets, whereas, the 737 cannot.

What would help the MAX 10 is if it had longer wings, taller gear and uprated engines. If those issues were rectified, sure. As far as I know, the MAX will be a stretch.

I would also ask why not the A321 for P.S. service? AA and B6 are doing Transcons with A321s now, and from the looks of it, with far better products too. UA is introducing Polaris. Perhaps they should unveil a fresh Transcon service!

Take off performance for the current TCON premium routes isn't a factor. All airports in question have regularly scheduled A380/777/747 service on those runways.

I agree with the larger wings part. Boeing should've done to the MAX what they did to the 777X, larger wing area. The stubby MLG of the 737 is a hindrance, but there are ways around it to make it effective. In this regard, the 737MAX will not be Boeing's finest product. They could have done better.

I'm not saying it should solely be the A321. The aircraft itself doesn't matter. The product on the inside does. With the 739ERs UA is taking in droves, they could easily make a p.s. subfleet without adding a new fleet type. Yeah the A321 has a wider cabin, but the 737 has the same cross section as the 757. It wouldn't be a problem.

Speaking of premium service on narrrowbodies, does anyone know how the new Polaris seat will fit in a 757? Will the TATL 757s even receive the hard product? Polaris on the 77W is 1-2-1, current 777 BF is 2-2-2, and the 757 is 2-2 in BF, so on paper the Polaris seat should fit.
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iahcsr
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Re: UA considering converting A35K order to A359 and/or A330

Thu Dec 01, 2016 1:00 am

What would work for a 73-10 is move the engines/MLG outboard enough to lengthen the gear. Of course this will never happen for cost/ certification reasons, but it's a thought.
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Re: UA Narrowbody Airbus Order

Thu Dec 01, 2016 1:08 am

Polot wrote:
jfk777 wrote:
Why is United messing around with it A350 order when that is what they need, remember the 747 are collecting social security and Medicare.

Since converting to the A35K UA has also ordered 14 77Ws to help get rid of the 747s even faster though. They could probably still use some A35Ks, but 35 of them?


United operates a tremendous schedule over two oceans to many cities far far away from 6 hubs. 35 is a small number, remember the 777-200ER are now 20 years old and needing replacing soon too.
 
United1
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Re: UA considering converting A35K order to A359 and/or A330

Thu Dec 01, 2016 1:22 am

TWA772LR wrote:
Boeing778X wrote:
TWA772LR wrote:

Speaking of premium service on narrrowbodies, does anyone know how the new Polaris seat will fit in a 757? Will the TATL 757s even receive the hard product? Polaris on the 77W is 1-2-1, current 777 BF is 2-2-2, and the 757 is 2-2 in BF, so on paper the Polaris seat should fit.


They haven't announced any hard product upgrades for the 752 fleet but supposedly they were looking into if they could retrofit a Polaris style seat onto the 752s. For the moment P.S. will only receive the Polaris soft product that debuts tomrrow worldwide.
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SCAT15F
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Re: UA considering converting A35K order to A359 and/or A330

Thu Dec 01, 2016 1:27 am

If the market is starting to get soft, I could see a better business case for doing a Keesje MAX-11 with the 35K LEAP-1A, wing root extension, and a ~218K MAX TOW to fill the MOM role instead of building both a simple stretch MAX-10 and MOM
 
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Re: UA Narrowbody Airbus Order

Thu Dec 01, 2016 1:34 am

jfk777 wrote:
35 is a small number

Since when?

There's only a handful of airlines on earth that have that many 350+ seaters of a single model, and none of them have more than two hubs. UA has half a dozen gateway hubs.

That many large aircraft are extremely hard to fill to yield, year-round, in a multi-hub system.


jfk777 wrote:
remember the 777-200ER are now 20 years old and needing replacing soon too.

There's no 772ER in the world that's 20yrs old yet, and most of UA's are several years from that.
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