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EMB190 Lands On St. Helena

Thu Dec 01, 2016 1:39 pm

In the spirit of our earlier thread, AVRO RJ100 Lands on St. Helena, we now read at Embraer 190 Trial Flight Lands At St Helena Airport from Darrin Henry's blog, What the Saints Did Next, that the EMB-190 operated by Embraer Commercial Aviation indeed landed successfully at St Helena Island and will be doing touch-and-gos today and will be leaving tomorrow.

As usual, his blog posts has some great photos:

Image

Image

Also he has uploaded a video to You Tube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=p ... vkfm2MDKeo

Please access Embraer 190 Trial Flight Lands At St Helena Airport for more details and more photos.
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AIR MALTA
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Re: EMB190 Lands On St. Helena

Thu Dec 01, 2016 1:43 pm

Excellent news. Could the E90 serve St. Helena may be from Cape Town or Windhoek?
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TOGA10
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Re: EMB190 Lands On St. Helena

Thu Dec 01, 2016 1:50 pm

The distance from Saint Helena to Cape Town 1953 nm, so in theory it could be done with the E190LR (max range is 2400nm). But I guess it comes downs to suitable alternates, seeing that Saint Helena is quite remote. WDH at 1573nm sounds more viable.
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Re: EMB190 Lands On St. Helena

Thu Dec 01, 2016 2:39 pm

TOGA10 wrote:
The distance from Saint Helena to Cape Town 1953 nm, so in theory it could be done with the E190LR (max range is 2400nm). But I guess it comes downs to suitable alternates, seeing that Saint Helena is quite remote. WDH at 1573nm sounds more viable.


Actually it's 1953 mi as opposed to 1953 nm, from what I see.

I used http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=REC-HLE,CP ... -HLE&DU=nm to come up with the below. I included REC since I believe this aircraft did REC-HLE:

Image

REC HLE 1,781 nm
CPT HLE 1,697 nm
WDH HLE 1,367 nm
ASI HLE 701 nm

So we know the EMB190 can do REC-HLE legally but of course this flight was non-commercial and of course it did not have full pax and bags onboard. However since EMB did the flight I am presuming they have judged it to be commercially viable.

http://www.embraercommercialaviation.co ... rmance.pdf has the payload-range chart. It suggests there are a lot of possibilities:

Image

I agree it does come down to what alternatives you'd be able to file. Above I included ASI in case it is allowed.

Note the (originally proposed) Boeing 738 brochure range is 3,060 nm vs the 2,400 nm range of E190 and 2,800 nm of E190-E2.

It will be interesting to see how this all plays out.
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Re: EMB190 Lands On St. Helena

Thu Dec 01, 2016 2:53 pm

Revelation wrote:
TOGA10 wrote:
The distance from Saint Helena to Cape Town 1953 nm, so in theory it could be done with the E190LR (max range is 2400nm). But I guess it comes downs to suitable alternates, seeing that Saint Helena is quite remote. WDH at 1573nm sounds more viable.


Actually it's 1953 mi as opposed to 1953 nm, from what I see.

I used http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=REC-HLE,CP ... -HLE&DU=nm to come up with the below. I included REC since I believe this aircraft did REC-HLE:

Image

REC HLE 1,781 nm
CPT HLE 1,697 nm
WDH HLE 1,367 nm
ASI HLE 701 nm

So we know the EMB190 can do REC-HLE legally but of course this flight was non-commercial and of course it did not have full pax and bags onboard. However since EMB did the flight I am presuming they have judged it to be commercially viable.

http://www.embraercommercialaviation.co ... rmance.pdf has the payload-range chart. It suggests there are a lot of possibilities:

Image

I agree it does come down to what alternatives you'd be able to file. Above I included ASI in case it is allowed.

Note the (originally proposed) Boeing 738 brochure range is 3,060 nm vs the 2,400 nm range of E190 and 2,800 nm of E190-E2.

It will be interesting to see how this all plays out.


I do apologise. I used the same great circle mapper but didn't realise it uses statute miles iso nautical. Makes more sense that way!
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Re: EMB190 Lands On St. Helena

Thu Dec 01, 2016 3:07 pm

I did some math based on the runway length at HLE and the E190-E2 should be able to do 1880nm (it splits slightly above halfway 1800 and 1950nm on the chart) legally with 92 pax... which puts both CPT and REC in range, along with the major cities on the bite of Africa.
Image

REC might not have a legal alternate though...

Now the E175-E2 should have better performance but nothing is posted for it in detail performance wise?

But assuming a 2000nm range, that puts JNB and SSA in the marginally viable range

Image

Now obviously these numbers are rough based on posted information online... so don't blame me when they aren't 100% correct.
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oldannyboy
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Re: EMB190 Lands On St. Helena

Thu Dec 01, 2016 3:24 pm

This is excellent news. Let's just keep our fingers crossed that the lovely wee 190 will ease matters for our beloved Saints!
 
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Re: EMB190 Lands On St. Helena

Thu Dec 01, 2016 3:41 pm

northstardc4m wrote:
I did some math based on the runway length at HLE and the E190-E2 should be able to do 1880nm (it splits slightly above halfway 1800 and 1950nm on the chart) legally with 92 pax... which puts both CPT and REC in range, along with the major cities on the bite of Africa.


..CPT is all that really matters at the moment.... the saints don't really need anything else frankly. Anything on top of Cape Town is a bonus. They need a simple, reliable "lifeline" support schedule that will function in the absence of the old Royal Mail vessel which is about to be decommissioned, and that hopefully will make things far easier work- and health-wise.
 
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Re: EMB190 Lands On St. Helena

Thu Dec 01, 2016 3:47 pm

I don't see an alternative airport in this calculations. What if the plane canot land in HLE e.g. due to wheather conditions? Is there another island with airport nearby? The range is not sufficient to fly to WDH after trying to land in HLE without success.
 
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Re: EMB190 Lands On St. Helena

Thu Dec 01, 2016 3:55 pm

A350 wrote:
I don't see an alternative airport in this calculations. What if the plane canot land in HLE e.g. due to wheather conditions? Is there another island with airport nearby? The range is not sufficient to fly to WDH after trying to land in HLE without success.


Possibly ASI (Ascension Island), or use similar procedures as those in place for flights to IPC (Easter Island), and LYR (Longyearbyen, Svalbard)?
 
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Re: EMB190 Lands On St. Helena

Thu Dec 01, 2016 3:58 pm

northstardc4m wrote:
I did some math based on the runway length at HLE and the E190-E2 should be able to do 1880nm (it splits slightly above halfway 1800 and 1950nm on the chart) legally with 92 pax... which puts both CPT and REC in range, along with the major cities on the bite of Africa.
Image

REC might not have a legal alternate though...

Now the E175-E2 should have better performance but nothing is posted for it in detail performance wise?

But assuming a 2000nm range, that puts JNB and SSA in the marginally viable range

Image

Now obviously these numbers are rough based on posted information online... so don't blame me when they aren't 100% correct.


Couldn't Fernando de Noronha be an alternate for REC?

And how long till someone starts a thread about copying KEF operations at St. Helena?... 4...3...2...1... :duck:
 
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Re: EMB190 Lands On St. Helena

Thu Dec 01, 2016 4:12 pm

I still fail to see how an airplane, much less one the size of an RJ, will manage to replace a cargo ship.

I will be great for transporting passengers and mail, but what about what I assume are dozens of tons of cargo and fuel which are required for the survival of the local community?
An Embraer or anything similar would not be able to carry much more than pax and their bags on that kind of distance, and the price of shuttling everything by air instead of sea would be orders of magnitude higher...

Am I missing something?
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Re: EMB190 Lands On St. Helena

Thu Dec 01, 2016 4:15 pm

MalevTU134 wrote:
A350 wrote:
I don't see an alternative airport in this calculations. What if the plane canot land in HLE e.g. due to wheather conditions? Is there another island with airport nearby? The range is not sufficient to fly to WDH after trying to land in HLE without success.


Possibly ASI (Ascension Island), or use similar procedures as those in place for flights to IPC (Easter Island), and LYR (Longyearbyen, Svalbard)?


Yes, I would hope the Military would grant ASI diversion status for Saint Helena flights...after all they are part of the same "Overseas Territory", and have close links, with many Saints working on Ascension. It has been mentioned elsewhere that it was initially intended to operate a fortnightly "shuttle" to meet/connect with the Royal Air Force flight to/from Brize Norton, that continues onwards to the Falkland Islands.
If you refer to may post above, following Cape Town, the two other "likely/desired destinations for Saints would exactly be Ascension and the Falkland Islands, where a relatively large Saints' diaspora lives and works.
 
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Re: EMB190 Lands On St. Helena

Thu Dec 01, 2016 4:22 pm

Francoflier wrote:
I still fail to see how an airplane, much less one the size of an RJ, will manage to replace a cargo ship.

I will be great for transporting passengers and mail, but what about what I assume are dozens of tons of cargo and fuel which are required for the survival of the local community?
An Embraer or anything similar would not be able to carry much more than pax and their bags on that kind of distance, and the price of shuttling everything by air instead of sea would be orders of magnitude higher...

Am I missing something?

I see what you mean, but at least they can have much greater frequency, as well as 737 cargo service. I'd imagine if they really needed anything bigger than what a 737 can carry, they can always charter a ship.
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Re: EMB190 Lands On St. Helena

Thu Dec 01, 2016 4:25 pm

Francoflier wrote:
I still fail to see how an airplane, much less one the size of an RJ, will manage to replace a cargo ship.

I will be great for transporting passengers and mail, but what about what I assume are dozens of tons of cargo and fuel which are required for the survival of the local community?
An Embraer or anything similar would not be able to carry much more than pax and their bags on that kind of distance, and the price of shuttling everything by air instead of sea would be orders of magnitude higher...

Am I missing something?


They will still be getting cargo by boat, but in the future they will merely charter a cargo vessel that is travelling along that route anyway to drop off a few containers on the way, as opposed to having a dedicated cargo/passenger ship.
 
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Re: EMB190 Lands On St. Helena

Thu Dec 01, 2016 4:30 pm

MalevTU134 wrote:
A350 wrote:
I don't see an alternative airport in this calculations. What if the plane canot land in HLE e.g. due to wheather conditions? Is there another island with airport nearby? The range is not sufficient to fly to WDH after trying to land in HLE without success.


Possibly ASI (Ascension Island), or use similar procedures as those in place for flights to IPC (Easter Island), and LYR (Longyearbyen, Svalbard)?


As above, ASI-HLE is 701 nm. Also it's not a public airport, it's a military airport owned by the UK and leased to the US.

It would be nice to have more info about if it is allowed as a diversion point.

We do know that Comair had already announced service with a 737-800 for JNB-HLE (1,990 nm) and its brochure range is 3060 nm so a viable plan exists for that a/c and route.

I am guessing, then, that ASI must be allowed as a diversion since going back to WDH from JNB would be beyond the 738's range ( ref: http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=REC-HLE%2C ... =wls&DU=nm ).

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Re: EMB190 Lands On St. Helena

Thu Dec 01, 2016 4:33 pm

VSMUT wrote:
Francoflier wrote:
I still fail to see how an airplane, much less one the size of an RJ, will manage to replace a cargo ship.

I will be great for transporting passengers and mail, but what about what I assume are dozens of tons of cargo and fuel which are required for the survival of the local community?
An Embraer or anything similar would not be able to carry much more than pax and their bags on that kind of distance, and the price of shuttling everything by air instead of sea would be orders of magnitude higher...

Am I missing something?


They will still be getting cargo by boat, but in the future they will merely charter a cargo vessel that is travelling along that route anyway to drop off a few containers on the way, as opposed to having a dedicated cargo/passenger ship.


Yes, from what I read they will get cargo shipments in the future to the wharf that was build as a part of the airport project, and they already get fuel shipped by tanker that docks offshore and offloads via a pipeline.
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Re: EMB190 Lands On St. Helena

Thu Dec 01, 2016 4:34 pm

Francoflier wrote:
I still fail to see how an airplane, much less one the size of an RJ, will manage to replace a cargo ship.

I will be great for transporting passengers and mail, but what about what I assume are dozens of tons of cargo and fuel which are required for the survival of the local community?
An Embraer or anything similar would not be able to carry much more than pax and their bags on that kind of distance, and the price of shuttling everything by air instead of sea would be orders of magnitude higher...

Am I missing something?


No, yours is a very legitimate question... which should be directly forwarded to the UK Parliament...
Saint Helena will still undoubtedly need regular cargo ship visits.
The airport is/was supposed to be finally giving the Saints the ability to be better linked to the outside world, especially for work and medical evacuation reasons.

Secondly, the UK Govt, in its usual progressive ramblings about "economic self-sufficiency" and "progressive laissez-faire" economic attitudes was hoping to attract visitors and investors, hence kick-starting a regular influx of tourism, the building of new infrastructure and thus turn the Island into an independent economy....
The inherently delicate environment of this amazingly beautiful -and isolated- ecosystem should instead dictate it be treated with the utmost level of care, such as in the case of the Galapagos Islands, or Easter Island, and not be seen as the next target of tourism development...
The case however rests in the hands of HM Govt..they are not willing to spend any more money in the Island and are adamant to render it self-sufficient.. Let's just hope this will not spell the end for a truly unique place..one of the very last remaining isolated communities in an increasingly homogenized, globalized world..
 
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Re: EMB190 Lands On St. Helena

Thu Dec 01, 2016 4:50 pm

REC might not have a legal alternate though...


Couldn't Fernando de Noronha be an alternate for REC?



Absolutely no need to connect Saint Helena to Recife. No market for such a flight. It's not as if the Saints need to go to Recife for recreation.. :-) It's just the next dot across a vast ocean!
 
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Re: EMB190 Lands On St. Helena

Thu Dec 01, 2016 4:53 pm

Revelation wrote:
Possibly ASI (Ascension Island), or use similar procedures as those in place for flights to IPC (Easter Island), and LYR (Longyearbyen, Svalbard)?

As above, ASI-HLE is 701 nm. Also it's not a public airport, it's a military airport owned by the UK and leased to the US.

It would be nice to have more info about if it is allowed as a diversion point.

We do know that Comair had already announced service with a 737-800 for JNB-HLE (1,990 nm) and its brochure range is 3060 nm so a viable plan exists for that a/c and route.

I am guessing, then, that ASI must be allowed as a diversion since going back to WDH from JNB would be beyond the 738's range ( ref: http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=REC-HLE%2C ... =wls&DU=nm ).

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Of course ASI is available as a divert airport:

http://www.flyertalk.com/the-gate/blog/13659-flyertalk-members-report-on-experience-of-emergency-airplane-diversion-to-ascension-island-%E2%80%94-with-photographs.html

As is Shemya Island.

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Re: EMB190 Lands On St. Helena

Thu Dec 01, 2016 5:31 pm

diverdave wrote:
Of course ASI is available as a divert airport:


Thanks for the info and interesting link, David.

It seems they are set up for diversions but strictly on an ad-hoc basis, presumably the same as Shemya.

From your link:

When we deplaned we went to the British ‘terminal’. There was probably only about 40 seats inside for people to sit on but the evening was very nice so most people sat on large picnic benches outside or leaned against the walls and fence. They luckily had a tiny little play area in terminal already there where the little kids could play. They brought in a few of the cold sandwiches meant for the midflight snack to the base but there were not enough for everyone. We were also short on the refreshment said, the Brits brewed up some coffee and tea and there was a water fountain but that is all we had (I was smart and grabbed a few extra water bottles before we landed). We had some weak cell phone reception at the base so most of us were able to text or call people back in the States if we needed to.


It was nice to see how the ASI personnel coped well with a 777-worth of unexpected guests.

http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=CPT-HLE-AS ... =wls&DU=nm gives us:

CPT HLE 1,697 nm
HLE ASI 701 nm
Total 2,399 nm

JNB HLE 1,990 nm
HLE ASI 701 nm
Total 2,691 nm

So the first is almost the same as the brochure range of the E190 and the second is under the brochure range of the E190-E2.
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Re: EMB190 Lands On St. Helena

Thu Dec 01, 2016 5:47 pm

Revelation wrote:
diverdave wrote:
Of course ASI is available as a divert airport:


Thanks for the info and interesting link, David.

It seems they are set up for diversions but strictly on an ad-hoc basis, presumably the same as Shemya.

From your link:o

When we deplaned we went to the British ‘terminal’. There was probably only about 40 seats inside for people to sit on but the evening was very nice so most people sat on large picnic benches outside or leaned against the walls and fence. They luckily had a tiny little play area in terminal already there where the little kids could play. They brought in a few of the cold sandwiches meant for the midflight snack to the base but there were not enough for everyone. We were also short on the refreshment said, the Brits brewed up some coffee and tea and there was a water fountain but that is all we had (I was smart and grabbed a few extra water bottles before we landed). We had some weak cell phone reception at the base so most of us were able to text or call people back in the States if we needed to.


It was nice to see how the ASI personnel coped well with a 777-worth of unexpected guests.

http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=CPT-HLE-AS ... =wls&DU=nm gives us:

CPT HLE 1,697 nm
HLE ASI 701 nm
Total 2,399 nm

JNB HLE 1,990 nm
HLE ASI 701 nm
Total 2,691 nm

So the first is almost the same as the brochure range of the E190 and the second is under the brochure range of the E190-E2.


That's assuming that you are already at (or rather, above) HLE when you decide to divert, of course. An earlier decision to divert could save quite a few miles.
 
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Re: EMB190 Lands On St. Helena

Thu Dec 01, 2016 6:17 pm

What would the ETOPS requirement be for each of the routes listed as feasible above? From what I read, the E190 only is certified for Etops120.

In an earlier thread, someone suggested an A318 as the perfect aircraft for the challenges of Saint Helena.

I was on the "baby bus" BA1 (LCY-JFK) last week, and had an amazing (20min!!) chat with the copilot when he took a break and walked around the cabin. He agreed with me when I said that BA seems to be winding down the 32-seat A318 service. He said he has heard that his compang is trying decide what to do with or where to deploy these 2 A318's. We discussed Saint Helena, all the $ spent, and the tricky crosswinds. I predict that these two planes would eventually be serving that island. (with BA, or a different carriers' paint job).

On a side note, I was surprised that the little A318 had so much fuel endurance. I'm sure the 32-seat config helped a ton... He said they only needed to depart with 16.5 tons of fuel from Shannon to JFK but they had the capacity for 19 tons if there would have been bad weather predicted for the eastern US.
 
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Re: EMB190 Lands On St. Helena

Thu Dec 01, 2016 7:34 pm

expert7700 wrote:
What would the ETOPS requirement be for each of the routes listed as feasible above? From what I read, the E190 only is certified for Etops120.

In an earlier thread, someone suggested an A318 as the perfect aircraft for the challenges of Saint Helena.

I was on the "baby bus" BA1 (LCY-JFK) last week, and had an amazing (20min!!) chat with the copilot when he took a break and walked around the cabin. He agreed with me when I said that BA seems to be winding down the 32-seat A318 service. He said he has heard that his compang is trying decide what to do with or where to deploy these 2 A318's. We discussed Saint Helena, all the $ spent, and the tricky crosswinds. I predict that these two planes would eventually be serving that island. (with BA, or a different carriers' paint job).

On a side note, I was surprised that the little A318 had so much fuel endurance. I'm sure the 32-seat config helped a ton... He said they only needed to depart with 16.5 tons of fuel from Shannon to JFK but they had the capacity for 19 tons if there would have been bad weather predicted for the eastern US.



BA could lease them to Comair or the RAF or Air Tanker or whatever... but 2 planes seems a bit much for just one destination that will probably need what... 3 flights to Cape Town a week at most? I can't see even Daily service being worthwhile... unless there is a big compensation to pay for a flight for mail delivery every day? I doubt the default range works off of the ~6300' HLE runway, but if it does it puts most of Africa and a good chunk of South America in range... including GIG and GRU... even marginally EZE. I can't find a takeoff performance chart for the 318 though. One stop UK via something like Sal or Tenerife is also doable.

BA could do something like LHR-TFS-HLE-CPT return 3x weekly with them itself (or again more if it's compensated enough), but it would probably need to reconfigure the 318s to a J/Y mix or all Y config of some kind... i don't think the 32J config will work.
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Re: EMB190 Lands On St. Helena

Thu Dec 01, 2016 7:42 pm

MalevTU134 wrote:
That's assuming that you are already at (or rather, above) HLE when you decide to divert, of course. An earlier decision to divert could save quite a few miles.

True, but one needs to plan for the worst case scenario, like getting to HLE and finding unplanned problems with visibility.

northstardc4m wrote:
BA could lease them to Comair or the RAF or Air Tanker or whatever... but 2 planes seems a bit much for just one destination that will probably need what... 3 flights to Cape Town a week at most?

Indeed, but there's really not much else to do with A318s that go out of service other than scrapping them. These are being mentioned because they have the short field kit installed. However the BA accountants are going to do whatever the numbers tell them to do if/when they decide to stop using them at LCY.
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Re: EMB190 Lands On St. Helena

Thu Dec 01, 2016 8:15 pm

Revelation wrote:
MalevTU134 wrote:
That's assuming that you are already at (or rather, above) HLE when you decide to divert, of course. An earlier decision to divert could save quite a few miles.

True, but one needs to plan for the worst case scenario, like getting to HLE and finding unplanned problems with visibility.


Quite, which is why I suggested that a protocol such as the one being used for operations to IPC and LYR, could also be used for HLE. As far as I understand (and pilots or others in the know, please feel free to correct me), the alternate for SCL-IPC flights is SCL, and for TOS (Tromsø)-LYR flights it's TOS, meaning that there is a point during the flight at which, unless there is a 100% chance of the destination field being suitable for landing, the flight returns to the alternate (i.e. its origin, for lack of alternate airports due to the geographical isolation of IPC and LYR). However, once the decision to continue to destination is communicated to ATC, that airport cannot be used for departures nor arrivals by other aircraft, not to jeopardise the serviceability of the runway. I don't see why HLE would be any different...
 
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Re: EMB190 Lands On St. Helena

Thu Dec 01, 2016 9:15 pm

MalevTU134 wrote:
Revelation wrote:
MalevTU134 wrote:
That's assuming that you are already at (or rather, above) HLE when you decide to divert, of course. An earlier decision to divert could save quite a few miles.

True, but one needs to plan for the worst case scenario, like getting to HLE and finding unplanned problems with visibility.


Quite, which is why I suggested that a protocol such as the one being used for operations to IPC and LYR, could also be used for HLE. As far as I understand (and pilots or others in the know, please feel free to correct me), the alternate for SCL-IPC flights is SCL, and for TOS (Tromsø)-LYR flights it's TOS, meaning that there is a point during the flight at which, unless there is a 100% chance of the destination field being suitable for landing, the flight returns to the alternate (i.e. its origin, for lack of alternate airports due to the geographical isolation of IPC and LYR). However, once the decision to continue to destination is communicated to ATC, that airport cannot be used for departures nor arrivals by other aircraft, not to jeopardise the serviceability of the runway. I don't see why HLE would be any different...


Yes, that's interesting input.

http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=SCL-IPC,CP ... -LYR&DU=nm says:

SCL IPC 2,029 nm
CPT HLE 1,697 nm
TOS LYR 519 nm

So IPC is an even more challenging flight whereas LYR is a lot less risky if distance is the main measure. As per earlier posts, HLE-ASI is around 700nm and is an available diversion point, so it might be a better alternative than doubling back to Africa, depending on conditions.
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diverdave
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Re: EMB190 Lands On St. Helena

Thu Dec 01, 2016 10:18 pm

Revelation wrote:

It seems they are set up for diversions but strictly on an ad-hoc basis, presumably the same as Shemya.


You are correct. Certainly seems the ASI on-island folks provided pretty good hospitality to their unexpected guests.

And of course you can visit Ascension as a tourist, which is not the case for Shemya.

Shemya took a divert in 2015, but the aircraft was declared operable and went to Anchorage.

http://onemileatatime.boardingarea.com/2015/07/30/video-of-cathay-pacifics-terrifying-diversion-over-the-pacific/

I have always had a fascination with Ascension as my father landed his B-25 there during WWII while in transit to China. But that's another story.

I have been to Shemya twice, and hope to visit Ascension sometime. Maybe I would be able to tag on a trip to St. Helena. 8-)

David
 
9252fly
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Re: EMB190 Lands On St. Helena

Thu Dec 01, 2016 10:43 pm

It's very interesting to see that HLE has had some interesting visitors so far this year. From memory it's a B738, E190 and a BAe 146. Each one of these has it's strengths and weaknesses in respect to operating in and out of HLE. Does anyone have the range chart for the Bombardier CS100 to see how it would compare?
 
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northstardc4m
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Re: EMB190 Lands On St. Helena

Fri Dec 02, 2016 12:08 am

The approximate range out of LCY on the CS-100 has been posted as 2300 or 2350nm... at MTOW... how many pax though isn't clear... one source says 108, one says 80 and another 92... but whatever to HLE even 80 is far more than needed.

If the same holds for HLE... CPT, JNB, REC are all well within range, even GIG and marginally GRU.

Image
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9252fly
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Re: EMB190 Lands On St. Helena

Fri Dec 02, 2016 12:54 am

northstardc4m wrote:
The approximate range out of LCY on the CS-100 has been posted as 2300 or 2350nm... at MTOW... how many pax though isn't clear... one source says 108, one says 80 and another 92... but whatever to HLE even 80 is far more than needed.

If the same holds for HLE... CPT, JNB, REC are all well within range, even GIG and marginally GRU.

Image


Thanks for posting,very interesting. Is it fair to conclude the CS-100 has the range to fly CPT - HLE and have enough fuel to hold ASI as the alternate?
 
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northstardc4m
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Re: EMB190 Lands On St. Helena

Fri Dec 02, 2016 5:59 pm

Max still air range off of a normal runway (6500'+ at MSL) is about 3100nm for 90pax and MTOW, so yes CPT-HLE-ASI would be doable at 2399nm... even CPT-HLE-WDH is marginally doable (3064nm) with the initial performance specs, they have already announced improved fuel consumption beyond when the numbers i have were provided so it should be slightly better, and with a say 70 passenger restricted payload should be feasible with legal holds and a couple approaches at HLE.
Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.
 
lolder
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Re: EMB190 Lands On St. Helena

Sat Dec 03, 2016 9:48 pm

St. Helena will be getting monthly scheduled cargo ship visits: http://awshipmanagement.com/2016/03/aw- ... st-helena/
 
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VirginFlyer
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Re: EMB190 Lands On St. Helena

Sun Dec 04, 2016 4:42 am

expert7700 wrote:
What would the ETOPS requirement be for each of the routes listed as feasible above? From what I read, the E190 only is certified for Etops120.

Here's what the Great Circle Mapper shows:
Image
http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=HLE-CPT%0D ... U=mi&E=120

It doesn't have HLE in its ETOPS database, so I've added inner circle which is [email protected] (the other two circles are the 1880nm range for the E190 and the 2350nm range for the CS100 which were mentioned above). As you can see, REC, JNB and CPT (indeed any point in range in Africa) would all work under 120 minute ETOPS, while GIG/GRU (unlikely routes anyway) would require 180 minutes.

V/F
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lolder
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Re: EMB190 Lands On St. Helena

Sun Dec 04, 2016 10:34 am

Here's an interview with the Embraer Co. Pilot about their St. Helena tests. Very positive: https://whatthesaintsdidnext.com/2016/1 ... re-normal/
 
f4f3a
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Re: EMB190 Lands On St. Helena

Sun Dec 04, 2016 2:24 pm

I still think that the answer to this problem would be solved with an amphibian. If the airport is no good then it can just land in the harbour
 
dopplerd
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Re: EMB190 Lands On St. Helena

Sun Dec 04, 2016 3:48 pm

Would it be possible to fit one of the aux tanks from a Lineage 1000 to extend the range of the 190 or would that violate the 190's certification?
 
Natflyer
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Re: EMB190 Lands On St. Helena

Sun Dec 04, 2016 5:21 pm

MalevTU134 wrote:
Revelation wrote:
MalevTU134 wrote:
That's assuming that you are already at (or rather, above) HLE when you decide to divert, of course. An earlier decision to divert could save quite a few miles.

True, but one needs to plan for the worst case scenario, like getting to HLE and finding unplanned problems with visibility.


Quite, which is why I suggested that a protocol such as the one being used for operations to IPC and LYR, could also be used for HLE. As far as I understand (and pilots or others in the know, please feel free to correct me), the alternate for SCL-IPC flights is SCL, and for TOS (Tromsø)-LYR flights it's TOS, meaning that there is a point during the flight at which, unless there is a 100% chance of the destination field being suitable for landing, the flight returns to the alternate (i.e. its origin, for lack of alternate airports due to the geographical isolation of IPC and LYR). However, once the decision to continue to destination is communicated to ATC, that airport cannot be used for departures nor arrivals by other aircraft, not to jeopardise the serviceability of the runway. I don't see why HLE would be any different...


You are correct. I have been to both IPC and ASI. Inbound to IPC, once an aircraft is beyond the "point of no return", all movements at the airport are banned until it is on the ground at IPC. Likewise, outbound no movements until the aircraft has passed the ETP to destination (or closest alternate on shore). Easter Island is an interesting place. For one visit.

I used ASI as a fuel stop CPT-GIG on a commercial pax charter. We got that approved quickly, although the fuel price was on a par with whiskey. Service was quick and we were on our way. Ascencion is a pretty barren volcanic island, not much to see.
 
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TOGA10
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Re: EMB190 Lands On St. Helena

Sun Dec 04, 2016 6:03 pm

lolder wrote:
Here's an interview with the Embraer Co. Pilot about their St. Helena tests. Very positive: https://whatthesaintsdidnext.com/2016/1 ... re-normal/


It says they have the option to use the steep approach to land 'over the gusts'. To me that sounds a bit strange, as you normally won't be able to tell where the gust will actually happen. Of course you have a rough idea, but you can't just alter your final approach at the last moment, that would destabilise the approach entirely. Also, on a regular airport you would have other traffic to get info form, in this case, you'll be on your own!
Good job by Embraer, but sounds a bit too much like easy promotion.
Love flying, hate the alarm at 3 in the morning, love watching the sun rise at 5:30. It's all about compromises.
 
9252fly
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Re: EMB190 Lands On St. Helena

Sun Dec 04, 2016 6:36 pm

TOGA10 wrote:
lolder wrote:
Here's an interview with the Embraer Co. Pilot about their St. Helena tests. Very positive: https://whatthesaintsdidnext.com/2016/1 ... re-normal/


It says they have the option to use the steep approach to land 'over the gusts'. To me that sounds a bit strange, as you normally won't be able to tell where the gust will actually happen. Of course you have a rough idea, but you can't just alter your final approach at the last moment, that would destabilise the approach entirely. Also, on a regular airport you would have other traffic to get info form, in this case, you'll be on your own!
Good job by Embraer, but sounds a bit too much like easy promotion.


I watched,listened and read the transcripts of the interview. In respect to landing over the gusts,I don't think it's strange at all;why would you want to fly through any more than necessary while on final when the aircraft has the option to do a steeper approach as the gusts tend to be between 200-500 feet. Indeed it was a good job done by Embraer,especially the data collection which was meant to be shared. The Chief Pilot admitted it was a promotional flight at their own expense,it's not like they expected to enrich themselves from this test flight. This can truly be summed up as positive news for the airport after so many negative stories. There's no doubt in mind that whatever pilots operate commercial passenger aircraft into HLE in the future would need to be experienced with this type of category C airport,Rio being the example mentioned where hand flying the final approach is common.
 
lolder
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Re: EMB190 Lands On St. Helena

Sun Dec 04, 2016 8:08 pm

On the full stop landing on 20, they touched down on the displaced threshold, not the touchdown aiming spot 2000 ft. from the beginning of the pavement. Bravo ! On the arrival on 02 which has about a 500 ft. unpaved underun, they touched down about 600 ft. past the beginning of the pavement or 300 ft. past the 300 ft. displaced threshold. The interview said they switched pilot seats during the approaches with pilots from another unnamed company. SA Airlink?
 
2travel2know2
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Re: EMB190 Lands On St. Helena

Sun Dec 04, 2016 9:58 pm

Ember happens to be a Brazilian company.
Not sure if there is some hidden diplomacy from Brazil's part to let the inhabitants of St Helena know REC Brazil is within reach and from there South and North America could too.
Had REC a LON (BA/VS) flight then that would be another set of conditions in favour of a possible HLE-REC flight.
I'm not on CM's payroll.
 
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TOGA10
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Re: EMB190 Lands On St. Helena

Sun Dec 04, 2016 10:53 pm

9252fly wrote:
TOGA10 wrote:
lolder wrote:
Here's an interview with the Embraer Co. Pilot about their St. Helena tests. Very positive: https://whatthesaintsdidnext.com/2016/1 ... re-normal/


It says they have the option to use the steep approach to land 'over the gusts'. To me that sounds a bit strange, as you normally won't be able to tell where the gust will actually happen. Of course you have a rough idea, but you can't just alter your final approach at the last moment, that would destabilise the approach entirely. Also, on a regular airport you would have other traffic to get info form, in this case, you'll be on your own!
Good job by Embraer, but sounds a bit too much like easy promotion.


I watched,listened and read the transcripts of the interview. In respect to landing over the gusts,I don't think it's strange at all;why would you want to fly through any more than necessary while on final when the aircraft has the option to do a steeper approach as the gusts tend to be between 200-500 feet. Indeed it was a good job done by Embraer,especially the data collection which was meant to be shared. The Chief Pilot admitted it was a promotional flight at their own expense,it's not like they expected to enrich themselves from this test flight. This can truly be summed up as positive news for the airport after so many negative stories. There's no doubt in mind that whatever pilots operate commercial passenger aircraft into HLE in the future would need to be experienced with this type of category C airport,Rio being the example mentioned where hand flying the final approach is common.


I understand your point about the gusts and I agree with it, but I think when you're doing a steeper than normal approach, its's easier to get destabilised anyway because of the higher energy of the aircraft. Add some gusts to that equation and it's very easy for an approach to become unstable, which would (should anyway) lead to a go around. But hey, I'm far from a test pilot, I would think these guys would have thought about it in a bit more detail than I have!
Fully agree with you on the positive news point. About time HLE gets the kickstart it deserves. Just very curious about who, how, when and which aircraft.
Love flying, hate the alarm at 3 in the morning, love watching the sun rise at 5:30. It's all about compromises.
 
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Revelation
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Re: EMB190 Lands On St. Helena

Mon Dec 05, 2016 12:12 am

lolder wrote:
Here's an interview with the Embraer Co. Pilot about their St. Helena tests. Very positive: https://whatthesaintsdidnext.com/2016/1 ... re-normal/


Excellent interview by Darrin Henry. We have some definitive statements from Captain Joel Faermann, Embraer test pilot and flight instructor.

So you could come here from Cape Town and get back?

…and get back. So we don’t depend on Ascension Island. Ascension is a nice alternate because it is so close, the closest one, 700 miles and we have Africa 1,100 miles. This aeroplane is capable to do that.

If Embraer was to operate here what would be your passenger capacity?

This aeroplane can carry 96 passengers, then the engineering department for every company must calculate how much payload they want to carry. Because not only passengers you have the cargo and baggage of the people and the fuel to alternate. But our airplane is capable to carry 96 passengers and depending on the alternate you can come here with a full payload, let’s say like that and then return to Africa.

With 96 [passengers]?

Yes. Yes. And then this depends also how many cargo you have in the cargo compartment. This then can vary. Maybe you are limited in the compartment a little bit. Because the total payload of this airplane is 13,000 kilos, and the maximum landing weight is 44,000 kilos. With 44,000 kilos we can land safely on both runways. With 44,000 kilos it’s including 96 passengers. Then only the cargo compartment that will vary if you load up or not.


It's very interesting, also, to read that the flight was paid for by the commercial department of Embraer. That makes it pretty clear to me at least that they feel there are decent possibilities that an EMB product will operate this service.

In general, one has to wonder why the impression left after the Comair 737-800 flights was that much more study was needed before flights could be operated, whereas the EMB crew is saying that it's very feasible to operate this route with EMB 190 and pilots with the appropriate (Category C) training. Could it be the EMB 190 is that much better in this role? Or could it be that EMB's test pilots have a lot more experience than the Comair ones? Or did the Comair flight just happen to get more challenging wind conditions? So many question, I know...
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
C010T3
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Re: EMB190 Lands On St. Helena

Mon Dec 05, 2016 12:57 am

northstardc4m wrote:
REC might not have a legal alternate though...


What do you mean? JPA and MCZ are perfect alternates.
 
C010T3
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Re: EMB190 Lands On St. Helena

Mon Dec 05, 2016 1:04 am

VirginFlyer wrote:
expert7700 wrote:
As you can see, REC, JNB and CPT (indeed any point in range in Africa) would all work under 120 minute ETOPS, while GIG/GRU (unlikely routes anyway) would require 180 minutes.


I don't know, but maybe a monthly HLE-GIG-MPN flight synchronized with a GIG-LHR would work well.
 
2travel2know2
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Re: EMB190 Lands On St. Helena

Mon Dec 05, 2016 1:58 am

C010T3 wrote:
VirginFlyer wrote:
expert7700 wrote:
As you can see, REC, JNB and CPT (indeed any point in range in Africa) would all work under 120 minute ETOPS, while GIG/GRU (unlikely routes anyway) would require 180 minutes.
I don't know, but maybe a monthly HLE-GIG-MPN flight synchronized with a GIG-LHR would work well.
While there's a demand for passanger transportation between HLE and MPN as The Falkland/Malvinas is where many St Helena locals have found jobs, getting British authorities to negotiate with the Brazil to allow flights between Brazil and MPN may be somewhat tricky.
If someone has a chance to move passengers between HLE and MPN as frequent as the market demands, that someone could be a Brazilian airline.
Chile has (had) flights to MPN so it's not so far fetched that Brazil could if the market (from HLE and U.K.) is there.
I'm not on CM's payroll.
 
oldannyboy
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Re: EMB190 Lands On St. Helena

Mon Dec 05, 2016 10:59 am

f4f3a wrote:
I still think that the answer to this problem would be solved with an amphibian. If the airport is no good then it can just land in the harbour


Saint Helena has no harbour as such, only a pier. An amphibian needs a sheltered, protected bay of some sort in order to "land" on water. The strong sea (Atlantic ocean actually) swell does nothing to help the case for an amphibian. Given how rough the sea gets around Saint Helena (many a times the Royal Mail vessel has had to wait for days) an amphibious would probably see a higher number of cancellations than a landplane due to the winds.
 
oldannyboy
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Re: EMB190 Lands On St. Helena

Mon Dec 05, 2016 11:10 am

In general, one has to wonder why the impression left after the Comair 737-800 flights was that much more study was needed before flights could be operated, whereas the EMB crew is saying that it's very feasible to operate this route with EMB 190 and pilots with the appropriate (Category C) training. Could it be the EMB 190 is that much better in this role? Or could it be that EMB's test pilots have a lot more experience than the Comair ones? Or did the Comair flight just happen to get more challenging wind conditions? So many question, I know...

[/quote]

I would simply tend to think that the 190 is in a different league altogether than the 738 when it comes to difficult airports with a short runway.. The 190 operates into airports such as LCY, FLR, JER, IOM (I know, comparing apples to oranges here... BUT . . . )..the 738 can only dream of doing that. The 738 is a much bigger aircraft too, so the feasibility of a service would inevitably have to rely on a much bigger number of passengers...for what is essentially a very small market!
 
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AirlineCritic
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Re: EMB190 Lands On St. Helena

Mon Dec 05, 2016 11:12 am

Pardon my lack of knowledge.

But what are the rules and expectations regarding alternates. If I fly to HLE but can't land, and ASI is my alternate, am I required to have a second alternate, in case ASI is not workable either?

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