Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
StuckInCA
Topic Author
Posts: 1657
Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2005 12:55 pm

AS canceling flights due to a bit of snow in SEA?

Mon Dec 05, 2016 5:15 am

I'm sure I'm not the only one that finds this odd. Is this because they expect people will have trouble showing up at the airport?

https://blog.alaskaair.com/alaska-airli ... n-seattle/
 
Prost
Posts: 2601
Joined: Wed Oct 03, 2012 6:23 pm

Re: AS canceling flights due to a bit of snow in SEA?

Mon Dec 05, 2016 5:18 am

It's Seattle, even the threat of snow makes us quiver in fear.
 
StuckInCA
Topic Author
Posts: 1657
Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2005 12:55 pm

Re: AS canceling flights due to a bit of snow in SEA?

Mon Dec 05, 2016 5:20 am

But... I live in the area and I'm surprised by AS canceling flights. My best guess is that they figure enough ill prepared people won't show up for flights that it's a financial move.
 
PlanesNTrains
Posts: 9524
Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2005 4:19 pm

Re: AS canceling flights due to a bit of snow in SEA?

Mon Dec 05, 2016 6:39 am

I'd assume that it's simply their way of making sure that they are prepared for employees not showing up. Otherwise, why cancel these specific flights early? Instead, they will simply reassign crews as needed to cover the slightly reduced schedule based on who can and can't show up for work.

It will be a minor event but I guess they figure it's preferable to cancel these particular flights ahead instead of having to cancel a potentially more important flight due to the luck of the draw. Not sure which flights these are, but at 1300 re-accommodations over 20 flights, that's only 65 or so people per flight.
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
Newbiepilot
Posts: 3642
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2016 10:18 pm

Re: AS canceling flights due to a bit of snow in SEA?

Mon Dec 05, 2016 2:38 pm

StuckInCA wrote:
But... I live in the area and I'm surprised by AS canceling flights. My best guess is that they figure enough ill prepared people won't show up for flights that it's a financial move.


I highly doubt that is true. The DOT does not look kindly on airlines canceling flights with low load factors and blaming weather if it is a financial move.

What I think is more likely is that Alaska acknowledges that they can't run a full schedule with de icing going on. Alaska Airlines fixed their on time performance problem from a few years ago by employing lean principles to carefully choreograph their gate turns. They are committed to getting the first passenger off the plane within 60 seconds of the airplane stopping at the gate. They guarantee 20 mi the baggage delivery. They have done many things to position equipment and do a better job of reducing the amount of ground equipment on the ramp and ensuring it all works.

It would not surprise me if they know exactly how much time running a full de-icing operation takes. SEA doesn't go through 100% de icing very often. There is limited equipment and more so limited space to do it. When it happens, it slows gate turns since it has to be done at the gate. Alaska has very high gate utilization at SEA since it is a space constrained airport. I suspect that there is an engineer in headquarters that has calculated the extra ground time needed. For example each turn may be 8 minutes longer. With limited gates and the aggressive schedules for turnaround time that Alaska has in their network, they might know that if they cancel 20-30 flights and reduce capacity by 10%, the operation can continue to operate on time. That likely is more efficient for the airline than have everything backup and get 1-3 hour delays, gate holds, misconnects, duty time limits etc.
 
raylee67
Posts: 968
Joined: Mon Oct 24, 2011 11:06 pm

Re: AS canceling flights due to a bit of snow in SEA?

Mon Dec 05, 2016 3:04 pm

You can't apply the standard of Northeast to West Coast in terms of winter weather preparedness. I used to live in Toronto. In Toronto, many drivers don't even bother with winter tires. We just keep driving with all-season tires, and when it is snowing heavily, people are still driving 40mph on highways. In Vancouver, drivers put on snow tires when there is flurries, and the city will be in chaos with multiple accidents blocking streets. The same would apply to SEA vs. ORD. It simply would not have the infrastructure to handle weather that only happens once several years, including snow plow, de-icing capacity or even preparedness of pilots to fly in those conditions.
319/20/21 332/33 342/43/45 359/51 388 707 717 732/36/3G/38/39 74R/42/43/44/4E/48 757 762/63 772/7L/73/7W 788/89 D10 M80 135/40/45 175/90 DH1/4 CRJ/R7 L10
AY LH OU SR BA FI LX
AA DL UA NW AC CP WS FL NK PD
CI NH SQ KA CX JL BR OZ TG KE CA CZ NZ JQ RS
 
Sooner787
Posts: 2758
Joined: Thu Jul 18, 2013 1:44 am

Re: AS canceling flights due to a bit of snow in SEA?

Mon Dec 05, 2016 4:16 pm

Plus the Seattle metro area is VERY hilly. I'm sure a glaze of frozen stuff on
some of those streets would turn them into ski slopes in no time
 
hiflyeras
Posts: 2318
Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2011 6:48 pm

Re: AS canceling flights due to a bit of snow in SEA?

Mon Dec 05, 2016 4:26 pm

At first it seemed a bit premature but it's started to snow as of about 730am Seattle time.
http://www.king5.com/weather/sea-tac-airport-cam
 
dc10lover
Posts: 1594
Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2014 6:11 pm

Re: AS canceling flights due to a bit of snow in SEA?

Mon Dec 05, 2016 4:27 pm

If it snows it will be very little. We'll see.
Why endure the nightmare and congestion of LAX when BUR, LGB, ONT & SNA is so much easier to fly in and out of. Same with OAK & SJC when it comes to SFO.
 
User avatar
readytotaxi
Posts: 7692
Joined: Mon Dec 11, 2006 2:09 am

Re: AS canceling flights due to a bit of snow in SEA?

Mon Dec 05, 2016 4:45 pm

Perhaps it is some of that Hawaii snow. :rotfl:
you don't get a second chance to make a first impression!
Growing older, but not up.
 
User avatar
piedmontf284000
Posts: 480
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 12:00 pm

Re: AS canceling flights due to a bit of snow in SEA?

Mon Dec 05, 2016 6:17 pm

Looking at the radar, it appears that PDX is getting it worse than SEA. The flight board shows zero cancellations for PDX and only a handful of delays. Seems to me that PDX can 'weather' a storm much better then SEA.
 
User avatar
Stitch
Posts: 27462
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 4:26 am

Re: AS canceling flights due to a bit of snow in SEA?

Mon Dec 05, 2016 7:07 pm

Prost wrote:
It's Seattle, even the threat of snow makes us quiver in fear.


Seriously. The highways will be parking lots within minutes with rolled-over SUVs and jack-knifed articulated busses blocking every other mile.

Overall, looks like we ducked it as we were dry in Bellevue until 7am when it started to rain.


StuckInCA wrote:
But... I live in the area and I'm surprised by AS canceling flights. My best guess is that they figure enough ill prepared people won't show up for flights that it's a financial move.


And what about all the people at the destination airports expecting to get to Seattle on the return flight? I've been on a number of near-empty planes that still go out because the return flight is heavily/fully booked and having to accommodate and compensate them would cost more then the "empty" ferry.

Newbiepilot is on the mark with his comments - SEA does not handle heavy snow well (because it is so rare) and therefore I see this as a pre-emptive move by AS to better accommodate airport disruptions.
 
802flyguy
Posts: 267
Joined: Thu May 10, 2012 1:56 pm

Re: AS canceling flights due to a bit of snow in SEA?

Mon Dec 05, 2016 7:39 pm

[quote="Prost"]It's Seattle, even the threat of snow makes us quiver in fear.[/


Seattle when it snows = Los Angeles when it rains.
 
ooslc
Posts: 312
Joined: Thu Nov 20, 2008 12:51 am

Re: AS canceling flights due to a bit of snow in SEA?

Mon Dec 05, 2016 7:48 pm

Here in PDX it snowed.....Didn't stick at all so no worries here. Seattle it looked like it stuck. Lots of people on AS's facebook page complaining about 3 hour delays waiting for their plane to get deiced and 1+ hours for inbound planes waiting for gates. Not a fun morning at SeaTac.
    Ironically, I don't work for OO anymore, and I'm not in SLC anymore. PDX based, aviation enthusiast, non-aviation worker.
 
User avatar
ER757
Posts: 3951
Joined: Tue May 10, 2005 10:16 am

Re: AS canceling flights due to a bit of snow in SEA?

Mon Dec 05, 2016 8:24 pm

Prost wrote:
It's Seattle, even the threat of snow makes us quiver in fear.

Ha - so true. What cracks me up is how almost everyone in the state (except me apparently) goes skiing all winter and never has an issue getting to the ski area. But Lord forbid a flake hit the pavement in town....then the whole city shuts down.

I come from an area that gets LOTS of snow (Chicago) but I'll acknowledge that Seattle is hilly where Chicago is flat and that Chicago knows how to treat the roads (salt/deicer etc) whereas Seattle thinks a little sand will do the trick.
 
clrd4t8koff
Posts: 1722
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2005 3:57 am

Re: AS canceling flights due to a bit of snow in SEA?

Mon Dec 05, 2016 8:27 pm

Yikes, looks like quite the day so far. Looking at the morning SEA-BOS flight (AS 12), which is scheduled for a 9:30am departure, is now estimated for 1:20pm. Is the snow that bad it's creating delays of 4-hours for flights like this?!?

Also - what's going on with AS 8 (SEA-EWR)? It departed 14-mins late but is arrving 2-hours late?
 
32andBelow
Posts: 5089
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 2:54 am

Re: AS canceling flights due to a bit of snow in SEA?

Mon Dec 05, 2016 8:43 pm

clrd4t8koff wrote:
Yikes, looks like quite the day so far. Looking at the morning SEA-BOS flight (AS 12), which is scheduled for a 9:30am departure, is now estimated for 1:20pm. Is the snow that bad it's creating delays of 4-hours for flights like this?!?

Also - what's going on with AS 8 (SEA-EWR)? It departed 14-mins late but is arrving 2-hours late?

it probably blocked out and then had to wait for de-ice and taxi.
 
Okie
Posts: 4221
Joined: Wed Jul 16, 2003 11:30 am

Re: AS canceling flights due to a bit of snow in SEA?

Mon Dec 05, 2016 8:44 pm

clrd4t8koff wrote:
Also - what's going on with AS 8 (SEA-EWR)? It departed 14-mins late but is arrving 2-hours late?

Use a wild guess. It left the gate 14 min late and had to wait 1.5 hours for deicing.

Newbiepilot wrote:
What I think is more likely is that Alaska acknowledges that they can't run a full schedule with de icing going on.

I think you are going to be pretty close.
This is not the first time it has ever snowed in SEA, unless of course you listen to CNN, I suspect AS has a pretty good idea how to handle the situation with the least interruption.

Edited to add
Every Airline is suffering from delays and cancellations as the day wears on at SEA. Massive delays and cancellations.
Looks like AS just took the preemptive approach.

Okie
 
clrd4t8koff
Posts: 1722
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2005 3:57 am

Re: AS canceling flights due to a bit of snow in SEA?

Mon Dec 05, 2016 8:55 pm

Okie wrote:
Use a wild guess. It left the gate 14 min late and had to wait 1.5 hours for deicing.


Give me a break. Where are you getting this 1.5 hours from? It pushed at 8:14 and didn't take off until 10:47am, 2.5 hours later. What station is so poorly managed that it takes 2.5 hours to get de-iced?!?!?!?!? Is this AS first time dealing with an inch or two of snow @ SEA?
Last edited by clrd4t8koff on Mon Dec 05, 2016 9:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
clrd4t8koff
Posts: 1722
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2005 3:57 am

Re: AS canceling flights due to a bit of snow in SEA?

Mon Dec 05, 2016 9:01 pm

Okie wrote:
Edited to add
Every Airline is suffering from delays and cancellations as the day wears on at SEA. Massive delays and cancellations.
Looks like AS just took the preemptive approach.

Okie


That's quite a bold statement considering DL had a flight that left at 9am for ATL and took off at 10:18am - https://flightaware.com/live/flight/DAL555. Doesn't seem massive with DL ops.
 
United1
Posts: 4225
Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2003 9:21 am

Re: AS canceling flights due to a bit of snow in SEA?

Mon Dec 05, 2016 9:17 pm

clrd4t8koff wrote:
Okie wrote:
Edited to add
Every Airline is suffering from delays and cancellations as the day wears on at SEA. Massive delays and cancellations.
Looks like AS just took the preemptive approach.

Okie


That's quite a bold statement considering DL had a flight that left at 9am for ATL and took off at 10:18am - https://flightaware.com/live/flight/DAL555. Doesn't seem massive with DL ops.


Taking a look at the period between 1200-1500 local DL had 14 flights depart late and one cancellation out of SEA....0900-1200 was worse.

Every airline is being effected by snow and DL is certainly not immune.

http://www.flightstats.com/go/FlightSta ... Airport.do
I know the voices in my head aren't real but sometimes their ideas are just awesome!!!
 
clrd4t8koff
Posts: 1722
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2005 3:57 am

Re: AS canceling flights due to a bit of snow in SEA?

Mon Dec 05, 2016 9:28 pm

United1 wrote:
clrd4t8koff wrote:
Okie wrote:
Edited to add
Every Airline is suffering from delays and cancellations as the day wears on at SEA. Massive delays and cancellations.
Looks like AS just took the preemptive approach.

Okie


That's quite a bold statement considering DL had a flight that left at 9am for ATL and took off at 10:18am - https://flightaware.com/live/flight/DAL555. Doesn't seem massive with DL ops.


Taking a look at the period between 1200-1500 local DL had 14 flights depart late and one cancellation out of SEA....0900-1200 was worse.

Every airline is being effected by snow and DL is certainly not immune.

http://www.flightstats.com/go/FlightSta ... Airport.do


Not trying to be a smart a** - but how can you know what's happening between 1200-1500 when it's only 13:27 there now. Do you have a crystal ball, lol?
 
United1
Posts: 4225
Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2003 9:21 am

Re: AS canceling flights due to a bit of snow in SEA?

Mon Dec 05, 2016 9:59 pm

clrd4t8koff wrote:
United1 wrote:
clrd4t8koff wrote:

That's quite a bold statement considering DL had a flight that left at 9am for ATL and took off at 10:18am - https://flightaware.com/live/flight/DAL555. Doesn't seem massive with DL ops.


Taking a look at the period between 1200-1500 local DL had 14 flights depart late and one cancellation out of SEA....0900-1200 was worse.

Every airline is being effected by snow and DL is certainly not immune.

http://www.flightstats.com/go/FlightSta ... Airport.do


Not trying to be a smart a** - but how can you know what's happening between 1200-1500 when it's only 13:27 there now. Do you have a crystal ball, lol?


Simple...the flights have already been delayed by DL due to weather.... probably inbound aircraft are delayed and that has a rolling effect on later flights.

If you want to look at the period between 0000-1200 DL had 11 on time departures and 41 delayed flights....1201-2359 isn't looking like it's going to turn out any better.
I know the voices in my head aren't real but sometimes their ideas are just awesome!!!
 
Newbiepilot
Posts: 3642
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2016 10:18 pm

Re: AS canceling flights due to a bit of snow in SEA?

Mon Dec 05, 2016 10:04 pm

clrd4t8koff wrote:
Okie wrote:
Use a wild guess. It left the gate 14 min late and had to wait 1.5 hours for deicing.


Give me a break. Where are you getting this 1.5 hours from? It pushed at 8:14 and didn't take off until 10:47am, 2.5 hours later. What station is so poorly managed that it takes 2.5 hours to get de-iced?!?!?!?!? Is this AS first time dealing with an inch or two of snow @ SEA?


Before you start exclaiming about a station being so poorly managed, take a look at an aerial view of SEA. There are only three parking areas away from the terminal and all of them are used to park overnight airplanes due to lack of gates. Next look at how tight the space around the north and south satellite are. Now try to find somewhere to put a deicing pad. You won't find any space. Airports that can handle a full operation in snow tend to have a lot more space. A Toronto or Denver style drive thru deicing pad is not going to work. Neither is it going to be easy to back off the gate and do it without slowing down movements. Another factor is equipment. SEA is tight and is only doing 100% deicing about a dozen times per year. Between 7 and 8am there are usually a dozen airplanes being towed to gates from remote parking.

It is not worth the investment in equipment or space to make the airport capable of handling 100% daily capacity in snow. SEA had the runway capacity to deal with IFR conditions and fog, which are very common. It can't keep 100% of flights on time with snow just like how Chicago, Boston, Newark, Laguardia and JFK can't keep a full on time schedule. It is a waste of space and money to keep the airport at max capacity during snow and ice removal.

What I do agree with is that 2 hour de icing delays are excessive. That is more than reasonably expected delays. If delays are that long during the morning rush, I wonder what it would have been like if they had not cancelled a few flights.
 
StrandedAtMKG
Posts: 304
Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2015 5:51 pm

Re: AS canceling flights due to a bit of snow in SEA?

Mon Dec 05, 2016 10:37 pm

Newbiepilot wrote:
clrd4t8koff wrote:
Okie wrote:
It is not worth the investment in equipment or space to make the airport capable of handling 100% daily capacity in snow.


It clearly is, if two measly inches of snow can bring the entire airport to its knees for days on end. How in the world do AS and DL expect to run profitable hub/focus city operations if everything grinds to a standstill the second it snows?
 
Newbiepilot
Posts: 3642
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2016 10:18 pm

Re: AS canceling flights due to a bit of snow in SEA?

Mon Dec 05, 2016 11:10 pm

Strandedatmkg, I think the answer is simple. The hub is more profitable since they run more flights than the airport can handle in snowy conditions the 98% of days a year when there is no snow.

Have you looked at the on time performance in other hubs like UA at SFO, AA at PHL and anyone at EWR, LGA or JFK?
 
User avatar
SEAtown
Posts: 76
Joined: Tue Feb 11, 2014 5:21 am

Re: AS canceling flights due to a bit of snow in SEA?

Mon Dec 05, 2016 11:18 pm

This has to do with the de-ice operation. There is no de-ice pad at SEA and planes are de-iced at the gate. AS is just being proactive.

As a former ground agent and de-icer at SEA, I know we practiced for one day on how to use the trucks, a month later we had a night of light snow, but our policy was spray every plane in those conditions. It was a rough night as we struggled to maneuver the truck around the planes and even know the proper procedure for a sustained operation vs. an hour of training. Some of the planes were leaving 2 hours late because of us. Sadly most companies dont invest in de-ice training at SEA.
"When you go out to battle against your enemies and see horses and chariots and people more numerous than you, do not be afraid of them; for the LORD your God is with you." Deuteronomy 20:1
 
User avatar
Stitch
Posts: 27462
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 4:26 am

Re: AS canceling flights due to a bit of snow in SEA?

Mon Dec 05, 2016 11:21 pm

StrandedAtMKG wrote:
Newbiepilot wrote:
clrd4t8koff wrote:


It clearly is, if two measly inches of snow can bring the entire airport to its knees for days on end. How in the world do AS and DL expect to run profitable hub/focus city operations if everything grinds to a standstill the second it snows?


It rarely snows at SEA. I'm not sure it even snowed there this morning, but temps were close to freezing with rain so I imagine all planes were de-iced as a precaution, as SEAtown notes above and that is what caused the mess as morning is when SEA has one of their heaviest departure banks.
 
User avatar
BobPatterson
Posts: 3416
Joined: Thu Nov 26, 2015 7:18 am

Re: AS canceling flights due to a bit of snow in SEA?

Mon Dec 05, 2016 11:34 pm

StrandedAtMKG wrote:
Newbiepilot wrote:
clrd4t8koff wrote:


It clearly is, if two measly inches of snow can bring the entire airport to its knees for days on end. How in the world do AS and DL expect to run profitable hub/focus city operations if everything grinds to a standstill the second it snows?


Pure hyperbole nonsense. The airport has not been brought to its knees for even one day.

According to FlightRadar 24: https://www.flightradar24.com/airport/sea/arrivals There were about 60 cancellation out of 400 operations (inbound and outbound combined) between midnight and 15:00. Sure, there have been many significant delays, but the planes are arriving and departing.

According to FlightAware: http://flightaware.com/live/cancelled/today Seattle is about in a dead heat with Chicago ORD in many respect today.
Facts are fragile things. Treat them with care. Sources are important. Alternative facts do not exist.
 
iamlucky13
Posts: 1355
Joined: Wed Aug 08, 2007 12:35 pm

Re: AS canceling flights due to a bit of snow in SEA?

Tue Dec 06, 2016 2:18 am

ER757 wrote:
Prost wrote:
It's Seattle, even the threat of snow makes us quiver in fear.

Ha - so true. What cracks me up is how almost everyone in the state (except me apparently) goes skiing all winter and never has an issue getting to the ski area. But Lord forbid a flake hit the pavement in town....then the whole city shuts down.

I come from an area that gets LOTS of snow (Chicago) but I'll acknowledge that Seattle is hilly where Chicago is flat and that Chicago knows how to treat the roads (salt/deicer etc) whereas Seattle thinks a little sand will do the trick.


Three things about this, although this is largely off-topic from the limited de-icing capacity at SEA:

1.) It's not everybody in the state. It's maybe 10%, and I'm not even sure it's that high. Those who ski are less likely to be the people having trouble in the snow. It takes one bad driver to shut down a road with thousands of people on it, but 50% of the drivers on the road are worse than average in general, and 90% of them have less experience in the snow than the average Chicago driver. That includes a lot of people who moved from further south with no experience in the snow, and who don't comprehend that AWD helps you get in trouble faster, but doesn't help you stop faster. Basically, 90% of the drivers here give the rest of us a bad reputation.

2.) Because we don't get frequent snow in the winter, we don't invest heavily in snow removal. Having a standing army of plows, staff to drive them regularly, and huge stockpile of de-icer is more expensive in our area than than the occasional loss of productivity, so roads don't get cleared nearly as quickly.

3.) In areas with regular snow, most of it tends to fall in conditions colder than freezing. The Pacific NW marine climate lowlands have different weather patterns, and our coldest weather is usually very dry. When we do get lowland snow, it's usually in conditions right around freezing.

The result is the snow is usually just barely frozen. When compacted, you get slush if the temperature is above freezing, resulting in potential for extreme hydroplaning, as well as freezing to ice overnight. At or just below freezing, when compacted you get a thin melted film between your tire and the the compact snow that results in an almost soapy consistency. It's remarkably bad for traction.

I described this to a coworker from upstate NY when he moved here. He was used to dealing with several feet of snow at a time,so he just politely nodded at me and kept his mouth shut about the dumb Washingtonian who assumed he didn't know how to drive in snow. After we got our first decent snow of the year, he actually sought me out to comment about how he had several close calls on the drive in that morning because he hadn't realized how much worse the traction was than what he was used to.
 
dc10lover
Posts: 1594
Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2014 6:11 pm

Re: AS canceling flights due to a bit of snow in SEA?

Tue Dec 06, 2016 2:45 am

There is a little snow on the ground in Wenatchee, Washington. Alaska cancelled the night time flight. Yet it snows in Pasco, Yakima & Spokane and they still have flights. This Winter is suppose to have many snow days which means even more cancelled flights into Wenatchee, Washington.

http://www.pangbornairport.com/flightsa ... ebcam.html
Why endure the nightmare and congestion of LAX when BUR, LGB, ONT & SNA is so much easier to fly in and out of. Same with OAK & SJC when it comes to SFO.
 
PlanesNTrains
Posts: 9524
Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2005 4:19 pm

Re: AS canceling flights due to a bit of snow in SEA?

Tue Dec 06, 2016 2:53 am

dc10lover wrote:
There is a little snow on the ground in Wenatchee, Washington. Alaska cancelled the night time flight. Yet it snows in Pasco, Yakima & Spokane and they still have flights. This Winter is suppose to have many snow days which means even more cancelled flights into Wenatchee, Washington.

http://www.pangbornairport.com/flightsa ... ebcam.html


Clearly we don't have all the inside information on why flights are canceled or not.
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
dc10lover
Posts: 1594
Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2014 6:11 pm

Re: AS canceling flights due to a bit of snow in SEA?

Tue Dec 06, 2016 5:59 pm

This Winter is going to be a mess with all of the cancelled flights at Wenatchee.
Why endure the nightmare and congestion of LAX when BUR, LGB, ONT & SNA is so much easier to fly in and out of. Same with OAK & SJC when it comes to SFO.
 
winginit
Posts: 3067
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2013 9:23 pm

Re: AS canceling flights due to a bit of snow in SEA?

Tue Dec 06, 2016 6:44 pm

Newbiepilot wrote:
What I think is more likely is that Alaska acknowledges that they can't run a full schedule with de icing going on.


Bingo. You see the same scenario in DFW a few times a year.
 
b6sea
Posts: 569
Joined: Mon Aug 22, 2005 5:44 pm

Re: AS canceling flights due to a bit of snow in SEA?

Tue Dec 06, 2016 10:41 pm

So... This is something I have to explain a lot because so many people have moved here from elsewhere and many people mock Seattle for how we respond to snow. In Seattle often, when it snows, it does not just start snowing on dry ground. In fact, the ground in Seattle is rarely completely dry between October and June. Typically, when a snow storm system comes in, it starts as rain during the day and then converts to snow, often at night. That rain then freezes on the ground and there is a very thick sheet of ice underneath that layer of snow. Typically the snow accumulations are not that great because they are at the tail end of a storm system followed by a cold area of high pressure, so the snow does not really pack down on top of the ice. So, often, the problem is not the snow itself, rather, it is the layer of solid ice underneath that has coated every single road by the time the morning commute rolls around. Seattle also has very significant hills, which compounds the problem. It is a very messy and dangerous situation. Many Seattle people have experience driving in the snow, particularly those of us who enjoy skiing or snowboard or other winter sports, I can attest that the conditions on the roads when it has snowed in the lowlands vs. mountain snow are very different and much more challenging, mainly due to the ice.

I don't know if this factored in to AS' decision, someone else can answer that better than I can, but this ought to help explain why we respond to snow in the way that we do.
 
jumbojet
Posts: 2957
Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2003 3:01 am

Re: AS canceling flights due to a bit of snow in SEA?

Tue Dec 06, 2016 10:47 pm

hiflyeras wrote:
At first it seemed a bit premature but it's started to snow as of about 730am Seattle time.
http://www.king5.com/weather/sea-tac-airport-cam


absolutely premature. AS needs to get there act together, a bit of snow cant leave you running scared to cancel flights. We aren't talking a blizzard here. Shame on AS.
 
jumbojet
Posts: 2957
Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2003 3:01 am

Re: AS canceling flights due to a bit of snow in SEA?

Tue Dec 06, 2016 10:49 pm

b6sea wrote:
So... This is something I have to explain a lot because so many people have moved here from elsewhere and many people mock Seattle for how we respond to snow. In Seattle often, when it snows, it does not just start snowing on dry ground. In fact, the ground in Seattle is rarely completely dry between October and June. Typically, when a snow storm system comes in, it starts as rain during the day and then converts to snow, often at night. That rain then freezes on the ground and there is a very thick sheet of ice underneath that layer of snow. Typically the snow accumulations are not that great because they are at the tail end of a storm system followed by a cold area of high pressure, so the snow does not really pack down on top of the ice. So, often, the problem is not the snow itself, rather, it is the layer of solid ice underneath that has coated every single road by the time the morning commute rolls around. Seattle also has very significant hills, which compounds the problem. It is a very messy and dangerous situation. Many Seattle people have experience driving in the snow, particularly those of us who enjoy skiing or snowboard or other winter sports, I can attest that the conditions on the roads when it has snowed in the lowlands vs. mountain snow are very different and much more challenging, mainly due to the ice.

I don't know if this factored in to AS' decision, someone else can answer that better than I can, but this ought to help explain why we respond to snow in the way that we do.


No excuse. Just poor preparation on the part of AS. Plain and simple. What you described also happens on the east coast. AS needs a better plan on preparing for minimal weather events like this. What year are we in now, 2016 and they cant handle a few inches of snow?
 
b6sea
Posts: 569
Joined: Mon Aug 22, 2005 5:44 pm

Re: AS canceling flights due to a bit of snow in SEA?

Tue Dec 06, 2016 11:32 pm

jumbojet wrote:

No excuse. Just poor preparation on the part of AS. Plain and simple. What you described also happens on the east coast. AS needs a better plan on preparing for minimal weather events like this. What year are we in now, 2016 and they cant handle a few inches of snow?


Not a few inches, trace amounts. Big difference. You aren't driving on snow, you're driving on ice, and inch or two of snow would make it much easier to drive on. Although, if they don't have enough equipment to de-ice the aircraft that's another story, but getting people to and from the airport in these conditions is not at all like it is on the East Coast. I have enough relatives who come out here talking big about how we respond to snow and then drive in it for 5 minutes and understand completely. It's not the same, sorry. I did my best to explain it, as I'm not a meteorologist, but perhaps not well enough. All-wheel-drive and "driving ability" isn't going to help you driving on an ice rink.
 
PlanesNTrains
Posts: 9524
Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2005 4:19 pm

Re: AS canceling flights due to a bit of snow in SEA?

Wed Dec 07, 2016 3:43 am

jumbojet wrote:
hiflyeras wrote:
At first it seemed a bit premature but it's started to snow as of about 730am Seattle time.
http://www.king5.com/weather/sea-tac-airport-cam


absolutely premature. AS needs to get there act together, a bit of snow cant leave you running scared to cancel flights. We aren't talking a blizzard here. Shame on AS.


Is there no shame with you?
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
alasizon
Posts: 2719
Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2007 8:57 pm

Re: AS canceling flights due to a bit of snow in SEA?

Wed Dec 07, 2016 4:12 am

Just curious, may part of the issue be the Port of Seattle's ability/resources to clean up the deicing fluid after a deicing event? I know here in PHX (and lets face it, we deice three times a year), we can't use the gate until the fluid has been cleaned up by a sweeper/scrubber and when multiple aircraft are all departing and being deiced at the same time, the cleanup can take a while.
Airport (noun) - A construction site which airplanes tend to frequent
 
flyDTW1992
Posts: 1059
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2015 1:04 am

Re: AS canceling flights due to a bit of snow in SEA?

Wed Dec 07, 2016 5:03 am

I was at SEA for much of the afternoon yesterday, once the snow tapered off around noon, things were fine. I assume the majority of the CXLs were morning/kickoff flights, as they probably were concerned about A) airfield capacity and B) deice capacity early on. That's how these things work when it comes to prioritizing and preplanning.

While they probably would've come out alright, they likely had concerns about long taxiway/deice delays and sought to alleviate those potential issues.
Now you're flying smart
 
frmrCapCadet
Posts: 4626
Joined: Thu May 29, 2008 8:24 pm

Re: AS canceling flights due to a bit of snow in SEA?

Wed Dec 07, 2016 4:45 pm

A back of the envelope 'systems analysis' might compare lost time and expense of rare snow storm and the cost of equipment and training against spending the same amount of money on recovery plans from any major slowdown. At SeaTac the later may be the better way to spend money.
Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
 
wn676
Posts: 1751
Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2005 5:33 am

Re: AS canceling flights due to a bit of snow in SEA?

Wed Dec 07, 2016 5:15 pm

alasizon wrote:
Just curious, may part of the issue be the Port of Seattle's ability/resources to clean up the deicing fluid after a deicing event? I know here in PHX (and lets face it, we deice three times a year), we can't use the gate until the fluid has been cleaned up by a sweeper/scrubber and when multiple aircraft are all departing and being deiced at the same time, the cleanup can take a while.


That was my thought too as the aprons in PHX drain directly into the city stormwater system. However, SEA appears to have an industrial wastewater recovery system around the terminal areas.
Tiny, unreadable text leaves ample room for interpretation.
 
32andBelow
Posts: 5089
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 2:54 am

Re: AS canceling flights due to a bit of snow in SEA?

Wed Dec 07, 2016 7:27 pm

You guys realize AS flys Jets into places like Barrow, Nome, Kotzebue, Deadhorse, Adak, and SE Alaska every single day. I think they know how to operate in the freaking snow.
 
dennisho115
Posts: 21
Joined: Tue Jun 14, 2016 9:04 pm

Re: AS canceling flights due to a bit of snow in SEA?

Wed Dec 07, 2016 8:45 pm

In Seattle each airline is responsible for de-icing themselves, it has been reported some of Alaska's equipment was not functioning. I happened to arrive in SEA that same morning on ANA and waited for an hour for a Delta plane to deice and clear our gate.
 
bhill
Posts: 1883
Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2001 8:28 am

Re: AS canceling flights due to a bit of snow in SEA?

Wed Dec 07, 2016 9:29 pm

Carpe Pices
 
dc10lover
Posts: 1594
Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2014 6:11 pm

Re: AS canceling flights due to a bit of snow in SEA?

Thu Dec 08, 2016 3:58 am

The real snow starts Thursday December 8 - Friday December 9.
Why endure the nightmare and congestion of LAX when BUR, LGB, ONT & SNA is so much easier to fly in and out of. Same with OAK & SJC when it comes to SFO.
 
n7371f
Posts: 1861
Joined: Fri Jul 04, 2008 3:54 pm

Re: AS canceling flights due to a bit of snow in SEA?

Thu Dec 08, 2016 4:39 am

Everyone blaming de-icers and broken de-icers need to ask the mechanics. From an AS VP Monday & Tuesday are because of a labor dispute between AS & mechanics.
 
User avatar
BobPatterson
Posts: 3416
Joined: Thu Nov 26, 2015 7:18 am

Re: AS canceling flights due to a bit of snow in SEA?

Thu Dec 08, 2016 5:32 am

b6sea wrote:
You aren't driving on snow, you're driving on ice, and inch or two of snow would make it much easier to drive on. Although, if they don't have enough equipment to de-ice the aircraft that's another story, but getting people to and from the airport in these conditions is not at all like it is on the East Coast..


I just curious, how does the airport deal with taxiways and runways under such glazed surface conditions. Do they used liquid deicers of some kind? I don't imagine a plow or snowblower works well on glass-like surfaces.
Facts are fragile things. Treat them with care. Sources are important. Alternative facts do not exist.
 
ASFlyer
Posts: 1750
Joined: Sat May 28, 2005 1:25 pm

Re: AS canceling flights due to a bit of snow in SEA?

Thu Dec 08, 2016 5:34 am

n7371f wrote:
Everyone blaming de-icers and broken de-icers need to ask the mechanics. From an AS VP Monday & Tuesday are because of a labor dispute between AS & mechanics.


What's your source?

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos