Hello all,
Forgive me if this has been directly discussed. So it seems Delta has said the MD-88 retirements will begin when next summer starts to slow down. What will become of these planes? On one hand, they have been flying for a long time now and I'm sure will all have a pretty high number of hours. On the other, Delta tech ops takes immaculate care of all the Delta fleet and the MD-88s are no exception to that. Will these planes have enough life left in them to serve in another capacity or do you think the age will dictate otherwise and they will be destin for the chopping block? Thoughts? Thank you!
Re: Where will Deltas MD-88s go post retirement?
Chopping block.
This is like the DC-9 Classics. DL and AA have the skills and $$ to maintain and run the M80s. I bet they COULD have some life, but any project to build a fleet of them is surely unwise. Even the Allegiant business model of low utilization charters / P2P for M80 is fading away. There is no business model left... or manufacturer support, or parts....
Boneyard... IMO.
The less skilled airlines actually need NEWER airplanes and MORE support than an AA or a Delta.
This is like the DC-9 Classics. DL and AA have the skills and $$ to maintain and run the M80s. I bet they COULD have some life, but any project to build a fleet of them is surely unwise. Even the Allegiant business model of low utilization charters / P2P for M80 is fading away. There is no business model left... or manufacturer support, or parts....
Boneyard... IMO.
The less skilled airlines actually need NEWER airplanes and MORE support than an AA or a Delta.
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- KrustyTheKlown
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Re: Where will Deltas MD-88s go post retirement?
One aircraft could become an exhibit at the Delta museum. All others will be scrapped
Re: Where will Deltas MD-88s go post retirement?
To Allegiant.
(Sorry, couldn't resist.)
(Sorry, couldn't resist.)
Re: Where will Deltas MD-88s go post retirement?
JBLUA320 wrote:To Allegiant.
(Sorry, couldn't resist.)
You jest....but I wish !
"We must accept finite disappointment, but never lose infinite hope." - Martin Luther King, Jr.
Re: Where will Deltas MD-88s go post retirement?
Probably my next car
Q300/ATR72-600/737-200/-300/-400/-700/-800/A320/767-200/-300/757-200/777-300ER/
747-200/-300/-400/ER/A340-300/A380-800/MD-83/-88/CRJ-700/-900
747-200/-300/-400/ER/A340-300/A380-800/MD-83/-88/CRJ-700/-900
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- Northwest1988
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Re: Where will Deltas MD-88s go post retirement?
Unfortunately the chopping block is what I feared. Seems like such a shame. However I guess you can't avoid the inevitable.
Re: Where will Deltas MD-88s go post retirement?
All of the -88s are retiring before a heavy check is due, so unless an airline would like to shell out the cash to put them through an overhaul, they'll be scrapped.
Re: Where will Deltas MD-88s go post retirement?
To the other side of Atlanta to be made into Coke cans.
When wasn't America great?
The thoughts and opinions shared under this username are mine and are not influenced by my employer.
The thoughts and opinions shared under this username are mine and are not influenced by my employer.
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- jeffrey0032j
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Re: Where will Deltas MD-88s go post retirement?
Probably stored until the last A321s get retired, and they will use one of the stored Mad Dogs or DC9s to ferry the A321 pilots out.
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lightsaber
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Re: Where will Deltas MD-88s go post retirement?
Flighty wrote:Chopping block.
This is like the DC-9 Classics. DL and AA have the skills and $$ to maintain and run the M80s. I bet they COULD have some life, but any project to build a fleet of them is surely unwise. Even the Allegiant business model of low utilization charters / P2P for M80 is fading away. There is no business model left... or manufacturer support, or parts....
Boneyard... IMO.
The less skilled airlines actually need NEWER airplanes and MORE support than an AA or a Delta.
Parts are a big deal. After AA announced the retirement of their MD-80 fleet, the vendors gave airlines one year of notice to buy parts at prior prices or that prices were going up. Only DL made a significant order. An order large enough to sustain them to their planned fleet retirement.
One reason Allegiant is retiring their fleet is vendors were serious. While wear items remain in production, other parts are less common.
Expect a rapid retirement of most of the remaining MD-80 fleet. There will be a tail of operations off scavenged parts for a long time though. But not at DL, AA, or G4. Or less than 40% of today's fleet and probably less than 150 examples in 2021.
Lightsaber
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Re: Where will Deltas MD-88s go post retirement?
lightsaber wrote:There will be a tail of operations off scavenged parts for a long time though. But not at DL, AA, or G4. Or less than 40% of today's fleet and probably less than 150 examples in 2021.
I'm not even really expecting that. By 2021 used 737NGs/A320s will be hitting the market heavily with a ton of support. Boeing has built ~6,400 737NGs so far, Airbus ~7,300 A320s. For comparison there were only 2439 DC9/MD80/MD90/717s built total, just under half of which were the MD-80.
I imagine once DL is done with the MD-80 G4 will quickly be done and MD-80 ops, worldwide, will basically be nonexistent. The MD-80 was a great plane, but now with the Neo and soon Max it is two generations old.
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- lavalampluva
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Re: Where will Deltas MD-88s go post retirement?
I wonder where they will be stored after retired. AA sends theirs to Roswell, and some other go to Victorville.
Remind me to send a thank you note to Mr. Boeing.
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- B757Forever
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Re: Where will Deltas MD-88s go post retirement?
lavalampluva wrote:I wonder where they will be stored after retired. AA sends theirs to Roswell, and some other go to Victorville.
DL typically uses Marana Arizona and Blytheville Arkansas for storage and chop up. They still have some airframes in Victorville though.
The Rolls Royce Dart. Noise = Shaft Horsepower.
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- Northwest1988
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Re: Where will Deltas MD-88s go post retirement?
Did the DL DC-9-50s get chopped or are they still sitting out in the desert mostly intact?
Re: Where will Deltas MD-88s go post retirement?
The will be sold to Northwest and used between MSP, ORD and DTW on an hourly basis....lol
Re: Where will Deltas MD-88s go post retirement?
Polot wrote:lightsaber wrote:There will be a tail of operations off scavenged parts for a long time though. But not at DL, AA, or G4. Or less than 40% of today's fleet and probably less than 150 examples in 2021.
I'm not even really expecting that. By 2021 used 737NGs/A320s will be hitting the market heavily with a ton of support. Boeing has built ~6,400 737NGs so far, Airbus ~7,300 A320s. For comparison there were only 2439 DC9/MD80/MD90/717s built total, just under half of which were the MD-80.
I imagine once DL is done with the MD-80 G4 will quickly be done and MD-80 ops, worldwide, will basically be nonexistent. The MD-80 was a great plane, but now with the Neo and soon Max it is two generations old.
Thanks for the data on the total DC-9/MD-80/MD-90/717 build. The fact that were were so few MD-90s (116?) and 717s (156?) built - and thus the narrowing supply of parts, new, used, or refurb - is one reason why I am very skeptical that Delta's MD90s and 717s will routinely see 27-30 years of flight life, the way MD-80s and 757s have.
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- Northwest1988
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Re: Where will Deltas MD-88s go post retirement?
I guess the main reason I ask is when you look at companies like USAJet and Kalitta with their fleet of DC-9s and 727s, from a life span standpoint, what's to keep other bigger airlines from doing the same? I know they are far less efficient and way more noisy, but I see those old freight dogs come and go like there is no tomorrow. So clearly they are still getting the job done!
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lightsaber
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Re: Where will Deltas MD-88s go post retirement?
MIflyer12 wrote:Polot wrote:lightsaber wrote:There will be a tail of operations off scavenged parts for a long time though. But not at DL, AA, or G4. Or less than 40% of today's fleet and probably less than 150 examples in 2021.
I'm not even really expecting that. By 2021 used 737NGs/A320s will be hitting the market heavily with a ton of support. Boeing has built ~6,400 737NGs so far, Airbus ~7,300 A320s. For comparison there were only 2439 DC9/MD80/MD90/717s built total, just under half of which were the MD-80.
I imagine once DL is done with the MD-80 G4 will quickly be done and MD-80 ops, worldwide, will basically be nonexistent. The MD-80 was a great plane, but now with the Neo and soon Max it is two generations old.
Thanks for the data on the total DC-9/MD-80/MD-90/717 build. The fact that were were so few MD-90s (116?) and 717s (156?) built - and thus the narrowing supply of parts, new, used, or refurb - is one reason why I am very skeptical that Delta's MD90s and 717s will routinely see 27-30 years of flight life, the way MD-80s and 757s have.
Pilot makes a good point on the attractiveness of discounted used A320CEO and 737NGs in the timeframe I listed. It takes new airframes representing 20%+ of the flying fleet before the resale of the prior generation resale dives.
With production ramps on the NEO and MAX completing on 2019 and the small quantity of C-series sales, we will not see 3000 NEO + MAX + C-series until 2021.
So used MD-80s will then face punishing competition. It will not be possible to compete even in low utilization duty I concede. But some airlines will lack the funds for wise upgrades and so MD-80s will continue to fly.
Although I noticed that in the last week a Venezuelan airline retired an MD-80. So I'm confident taking the 'under' for 150 operational MD-80s in 2021.
Lightsaber
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Re: Where will Deltas MD-88s go post retirement?
Northwest1988 wrote:Did the DL DC-9-50s get chopped or are they still sitting out in the desert mostly intact?
They are at MZJ taped up and stored. One of the -MCs was scrapped and N401EA was scrapped, according to overfly photos I saw recently.
The horizontal stab of N401EA is the reception desk at DeltaOne check in at LAX.
DH84 E135/145/175/190 CR2/7/9 A319/20/21 A332/3 D95 M80/83/88/90/95 73W/8/9 752/3 763/4 772/L
Re: Where will Deltas MD-88s go post retirement?
Northwest1988 wrote:I guess the main reason I ask is when you look at companies like USAJet and Kalitta with their fleet of DC-9s and 727s, from a life span standpoint, what's to keep other bigger airlines from doing the same? I know they are far less efficient and way more noisy, but I see those old freight dogs come and go like there is no tomorrow. So clearly they are still getting the job done!
The economics are different with cargo haulers like USAJet and Kalitta than they are with passenger airlines.
There is also a lot to be said for the economies of scale: USA Jet is a very small operation. Their Wikipedia article states that they had only 11 aircraft as of 3 years ago: Six DC-9s (3 -10s and 3 -30s), an MD-83, a 722, and a Falcon 20. USA Jet operates a primarily on-demand business model, so most of those aircraft don't operate on heavy, regular frequencies. They don't have a strong financial need to operate the newest, most efficient aircraft, and aircraft cargo is such a business that they can charge enough for their services to cover the costs of maintaining older airframes. The lower utilization rate also makes it easier to keep them well maintained.
Kalitta isn't very large, either. Their Wiki article lists 18 aircraft as of last August: two 763s, four 742s, and the rest are 744s.
I'd take the awe of understanding over the awe of ignorance any day.
Re: Where will Deltas MD-88s go post retirement?
Could some become freighters?
"We must accept finite disappointment, but never lose infinite hope." - Martin Luther King, Jr.
Re: Where will Deltas MD-88s go post retirement?
727LOVER wrote:
Could some become freighters?
It's possible a few more will, but I see the number as less than a dozen. AS VTM (Aeronaves) recently shows, it seems they take one airframe as a freighter conversion and 2 more get flown direct down to Mexico for parts. I think the situation with JT8Ds is going to end up being the limiting factor with numbers and continued length of service.
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Re: Where will Deltas MD-88s go post retirement?
Parts availability is an issue I became very familiar with when running the local airport FBO in 1998-2000. There are certain moderately popular GA airplanes with minimal or no support, specifically Grumman and Beech singles. One of the last things I did before leaving was examine a Beech Musketeer that had had a landing mishap at a nearby airport for the insurance company, and ask my mechanic (who was taking over the FBO) if he wanted to tackle it. It was not badly damaged, but one main landing gear leg was pretty much wiped out. Turned out the parts were unavailable new OR used, and the plane ended up being scrapped. In the case of the MD-80 series there are enough of them that parts off of parked ones will probably last quite a while, but the end of the line is most definitely in sight. I think you will see all airlines that use them heavily migrate to other planes in the next few years. It would not surprise me at all to see only charter and other occasional users flying them after 2020.
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Re: Where will Deltas MD-88s go post retirement?
Sorry couldn't resist
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- CATIIIevery5yrs
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Re: Where will Deltas MD-88s go post retirement?
vhqpa wrote:
Sorry couldn't resist
Exactly. A lot of people on this site get nostalgic for the old airplanes and equally super excited to spot the first of a new airframe. It can't be both. Airlines don't need a gas guzzler when there's plenty of better options out there. They're running a business not a museum. Time moves on, although I'm sure a person could buy one and be the envy of their neighborhood (sarcasm) if they're that much in love with a particular used up airframe. They'll go to the desert, some oddball operator will buy a couple, and the rest will go the way of the dodo bird.
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- blacksoviet
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Re: Where will Deltas MD-88s go post retirement?
KrustyTheKlown wrote:One aircraft could become an exhibit at the Delta museum. All others will be scrapped
Will any MD-88 be sold to rich people who could use them to replace 727-100s in VIP configuration?
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- flyDTW1992
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Re: Where will Deltas MD-88s go post retirement?
JBo wrote:Kalitta isn't very large, either. Their Wiki article lists 18 aircraft as of last August: two 763s, four 742s, and the rest are 744s.
Not to nitpick, but Kalitta Charters is the carrier that operates DC-9s and 727s (and now 734s). Kalitta Air is the widebody operator. Separate companies, run independently despite being related in many ways.
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lightsaber
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Re: Where will Deltas MD-88s go post retirement?
blacksoviet wrote:KrustyTheKlown wrote:One aircraft could become an exhibit at the Delta museum. All others will be scrapped
Will any MD-88 be sold to rich people who could use them to replace 727-100s in VIP configuration?
There is currently a surplus of used business jets. Due to the lack of range with the MD-80s, I would expect an older 738/73G or A319/A320 would be more appealing.
Lightsaber
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Re: Where will Deltas MD-88s go post retirement?
blacksoviet wrote:KrustyTheKlown wrote:One aircraft could become an exhibit at the Delta museum. All others will be scrapped
Will any MD-88 be sold to rich people who could use them to replace 727-100s in VIP configuration?
Well, anything's possible.....an -87 would be the most practical, like the one Steve Wynn had. But there aren't but a dozen or so of those left airworthy. I could personally go for a low-cycle one with -219's and an extra center fuel cell....and of course, a well thought-out cabin for 30 or so pals....
I remember when......a plane trip was a big deal.
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