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LAXintl
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Hawaiian to acquire additional A321/A330s, accelerated 767 retirement

Mon Dec 05, 2016 4:24 pm

At investor event today, Hawaiian Airlines said it will purchase of one additional A330-200 and lease of two additional A321neos. Additional A332 will be delivered in Q4 2017, and the additional pair of 321s will arrive in early 2018.

At the same time, carrier will accelerated retirement of its 767 fleet, with last frame leaving property in 2018.

Hawaiian Airlines Optimizes Fleet Plan
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/hawaiian- ... 00324.html

=

Related at todays investor event they basically confirmed what we largely knew that the A321 fleet would serve both at replacement of some existing West Coast routes, and serve as growth capacity for new markets, including allowing HA to better connect outer islands to West Coast as well.
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TC957
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Re: Hawaiian to acquire additional A321/A330s, accelerated 767 retirement

Mon Dec 05, 2016 5:08 pm

I'd say WestJet should be good candidate to pick-up those newer 763's.
 
azjubilee
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Re: Hawaiian to acquire additional A321/A330s, accelerated 767 retirement

Mon Dec 05, 2016 7:14 pm

With only 8 767s left, and 4 of them owned, it made little sense to keep them around until 2020, especially with the 321neo fleet. 2 are rather old so will likely be scrapped but the other 6 could likely see life after HAL, especially the leased ones from BCC.
 
whywhyzee
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Re: Hawaiian to acquire additional A321/A330s, accelerated 767 retirement

Mon Dec 05, 2016 7:19 pm

Their 767's were by far my favourite looking aircrafts world wide, it'll be a sad day when they are gone.
 
coolian2
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Re: Hawaiian to acquire additional A321/A330s, accelerated 767 retirement

Mon Dec 05, 2016 7:33 pm

Well this will be a really popular decision on this forum
Q300/ATR72-600/737-200/-300/-400/-700/-800/A320/767-200/-300/757-200/777-300ER/
747-200/-300/-400/ER/A340-300/A380-800/MD-83/-88/CRJ-700/-900
 
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RL777
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Re: Hawaiian to acquire additional A321/A330s, accelerated 767 retirement

Mon Dec 05, 2016 7:39 pm

Will be sad to see the 767s leave HA. I had some great flights on them, at least the 717s will be staying for the meantime.
 
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nikeson13
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Re: Hawaiian to acquire additional A321/A330s, accelerated 767 retirement

Mon Dec 05, 2016 7:49 pm

Will miss seeing them at SMF... Remember flying it once SFO-HNL ironically, will be missed.
Nikolas
 
airzona11
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Re: Hawaiian to acquire additional A321/A330s, accelerated 767 retirement

Mon Dec 05, 2016 8:08 pm

Both the HA 767 and A332 are great looking birds. Will miss seeing their 767s, no doubt they served HA well.

Will be interesting to see when PHX gets the A332. I say this bc anecdotally it appears the current flight is often full and the on my last few trips to the islands HA was always more expensive than US/AA.
 
ILNFlyer
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Re: Hawaiian to acquire additional A321/A330s, accelerated 767 retirement

Mon Dec 05, 2016 8:39 pm

Would be nice if ATN would pick up some newer feedstock for their 763 needs.....
 
MrBretz
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Re: Hawaiian to acquire additional A321/A330s, accelerated 767 retirement

Tue Dec 06, 2016 12:31 am

I wonder what 767's the A321 will replace. My first bet would be on the SMF to HNL route. I think HA does 1 daily arriving late at night in SMF, sitting there over night, and then returning in the AM. It always seemed like a waste to keep the 767 8 or 9 hours in SMF. Or maybe HA will add some nonstops year around from larger cities like LAX or SFO to KOA or LIH. I'm just wondering.
 
Newbiepilot
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Re: Hawaiian to acquire additional A321/A330s, accelerated 767 retirement

Tue Dec 06, 2016 12:45 am

I am a bit surprised to not see any references to the A330-800 order. I wonder if these extra A321s and A332 have something to do with a potential change to the A338 order. With only 6 A338s on order and Hawaiian being the only customer, I would have expected at least a comment regarding when they anticipate getting the A338s or saying that they are considering an alternative.
 
azjubilee
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Re: Hawaiian to acquire additional A321/A330s, accelerated 767 retirement

Tue Dec 06, 2016 1:08 am

Newbiepilot wrote:
I am a bit surprised to not see any references to the A330-800 order. I wonder if these extra A321s and A332 have something to do with a potential change to the A338 order. With only 6 A338s on order and Hawaiian being the only customer, I would have expected at least a comment regarding when they anticipate getting the A338s or saying that they are considering an alternative.


I'm guessing there was no mention of it, because there was nothing new to share.
 
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OzarkD9S
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Re: Hawaiian to acquire additional A321/A330s, accelerated 767 retirement

Tue Dec 06, 2016 1:15 am

Now what will replace the 717s? :stirthepot:

Glad to see this though. I keep hoping beyond hope that HA will set up some scissor hubs in Cali such as HNL/OGG/KOA-SAN-Pick Three Cities and do the same at OAK and SJC, maybe even ONT. Or even throw Hawaii-LAS-XXX into the mix. So far they've been loathe to due intra-Mainland ops but there may be a few opportunities for such an operation without ticking off the big boys.
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flyfresno
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Re: Hawaiian to acquire additional A321/A330s, accelerated 767 retirement

Tue Dec 06, 2016 1:23 am

MrBretz wrote:
I wonder what 767's the A321 will replace. My first bet would be on the SMF to HNL route. I think HA does 1 daily arriving late at night in SMF, sitting there over night, and then returning in the AM. It always seemed like a waste to keep the 767 8 or 9 hours in SMF. Or maybe HA will add some nonstops year around from larger cities like LAX or SFO to KOA or LIH. I'm just wondering.


I could see them replacing one 767 per day to HNL with one A321 to HNL (daily) and one A321 (3X-5X per week) to OGG. AS has been flying to OGG for a few years, and while I'm sure there are some onward connections to OGG on the current HNL flight, a non-stop would certainly be in order.
 
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Re: Hawaiian to acquire additional A321/A330s, accelerated 767 retirement

Tue Dec 06, 2016 1:37 am

nikeson13 wrote:
Will miss seeing them at SMF... Remember flying it once SFO-HNL ironically, will be missed.

I was lucky enough to be on the inaugural SMF-HNL flight. Special event in the gate lounge, got leid, with a luau of snacks, music and the Hawaiian blessing of the plane. Taxied out under the water cannons.
(Photo thanks to Mike Durbin.)
Worked for WestAir, Apollo Airways, Desert Pacific, Western, AirCal and American Airlines (Retired). Flight Memory: 181 airports, 92 airlines, 78 a/c types, 403 routes, 58 countries (by air), 6 continents. 1,119,414 passenger miles.

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remymartin11
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Re: Hawaiian to acquire additional A321/A330s, accelerated 767 retirement

Tue Dec 06, 2016 1:46 am

About time HA gets rid of 767 and their 1990'era quality F seats...........bring out the lie flat 330 to PHX-HNL and add PHX-OGG. AA flying 1985 quality F product on their dinosaur 757's. Pitiful.
 
flyfresno
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Re: Hawaiian to acquire additional A321/A330s, accelerated 767 retirement

Tue Dec 06, 2016 1:47 am

OzarkD9S wrote:
Now what will replace the 717s? :stirthepot:

Glad to see this though. I keep hoping beyond hope that HA will set up some scissor hubs in Cali such as HNL/OGG/KOA-SAN-Pick Three Cities and do the same at OAK and SJC, maybe even ONT. Or even throw Hawaii-LAS-XXX into the mix. So far they've been loathe to due intra-Mainland ops but there may be a few opportunities for such an operation without ticking off the big boys.


You have to wonder whether the A321 will will be deployed on some of their inter-island routes, especially during parts of the day when there is a lot of connecting traffic from the mainland. Some of the current 717 routes have an insane number of frequencies (HNL-OGG has over 20 round trips per day) so I could see them replacing the 717s 2-to-1 without taking a major hit from reducing frequency but saving quite a bit of cash.

I definitely think you will see HA duplicating some current AS routes (particularly out of OGG) with the A321s, and probably adding service to a few of their current markets out of KOA. Aside from that, you might see a few new non-stop markets out of HNL that are too thin for the A330 (ONT, LGB, RNO, FAT, TUS, BOI, EUG). The biggest question would be whether HA will fly to the mainland from LIH, which is the thinnest of the four major Hawaiian markets and also has the shortest runways. Resurrecting the one-stop service that Aloha used to fly would be interesting, but would it be practical?
 
Cointrin330
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Re: Hawaiian to acquire additional A321/A330s, accelerated 767 retirement

Tue Dec 06, 2016 2:23 am

Inter island flying is tricky, because they need an aircraft who's engines won't overheat from the quick turns these routes generate. They keep buying second and third hand 717's but at some point, one has to wonder if they are going to replace them all, and with what? The 717 is the ideal plane for inter-island hops.
 
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Re: Hawaiian to acquire additional A321/A330s, accelerated 767 retirement

Tue Dec 06, 2016 2:48 am

Why is HA's aircraft selection so fascinating? Other airlines can make similar selections, even buy in far greater quantity, but for some reason HA's selection of aircraft is fascinating.

Maybe its because a few years into HA buying the 767s I mistakenly asked "Hey, when will Hawaiian replace these 767s" (I thought they were older planes). I was thinking A332 or an early 787 order...

Since then, I've been looking into HA's needs.



flyfresno wrote:
OzarkD9S wrote:
Now what will replace the 717s? :stirthepot:

Glad to see this though. I keep hoping beyond hope that HA will set up some scissor hubs in Cali such as HNL/OGG/KOA-SAN-Pick Three Cities and do the same at OAK and SJC, maybe even ONT. Or even throw Hawaii-LAS-XXX into the mix. So far they've been loathe to due intra-Mainland ops but there may be a few opportunities for such an operation without ticking off the big boys.


You have to wonder whether the A321 will will be deployed on some of their inter-island routes, especially during parts of the day when there is a lot of connecting traffic from the mainland. Some of the current 717 routes have an insane number of frequencies (HNL-OGG has over 20 round trips per day) so I could see them replacing the 717s 2-to-1 without taking a major hit from reducing frequency but saving quite a bit of cash.

I definitely think you will see HA duplicating some current AS routes (particularly out of OGG) with the A321s, and probably adding service to a few of their current markets out of KOA. Aside from that, you might see a few new non-stop markets out of HNL that are too thin for the A330 (ONT, LGB, RNO, FAT, TUS, BOI, EUG). The biggest question would be whether HA will fly to the mainland from LIH, which is the thinnest of the four major Hawaiian markets and also has the shortest runways. Resurrecting the one-stop service that Aloha used to fly would be interesting, but would it be practical?

I think we will see the A321s do some intra-island turns, but only one pair and then back to the mainland IMHO.

The A321s will have longer turn times by virtue of the long airframe length, 6-across seating, not to mention that PW1100s need some cooldown time. :duck:


Now what will replace the 717s? The PW1200G is designed for a much quicker turn time than the other GTFs. Due to the one fewer low compressor stages, the engine will run much cooler. It should have the turn times HA needs. But I haven't worked for Pratt a long time, so I do not know the particulars. A mix of MRJs and A321s mixed in would work well for HA.

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Varsity1
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Re: Hawaiian to acquire additional A321/A330s, accelerated 767 retirement

Tue Dec 06, 2016 3:17 am

This will be HA's one and only 242T A330.
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1989worstyear
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Re: Hawaiian to acquire additional A321/A330s, accelerated 767 retirement

Tue Dec 06, 2016 3:35 am

It seems that all 757's and 767's built between 1999-04 are pieces of sh** that airlines can't seem to get rid of fast enough - they'll probably all be converted to beer cans since nobody wants them, if not hacked to bits to become freighters.

This can't be said of the newer Boeing models that were built at that time (737NG, 777) - which are still going strong about 12-18 years later.

Weren't they planning on dumping them all in 2017 anyway?
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leleko747
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Re: Hawaiian to acquire additional A321/A330s, accelerated 767 retirement

Tue Dec 06, 2016 3:40 am

Sad to see the 767 leaving, it seems that Hawaiian didn't enjoy them that much
I wonder when people will understand:
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MSPNWA
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Re: Hawaiian to acquire additional A321/A330s, accelerated 767 retirement

Tue Dec 06, 2016 3:57 am

I won't be sad to see the 767s go, except if it means an A321 instead. From a passenger perspective, HA's 767s are pretty bad.
 
obrienct
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Re: Hawaiian to acquire additional A321/A330s, accelerated 767 retirement

Tue Dec 06, 2016 4:03 am

Not to be "That Guy" but I wonder if they'll begin passenger service to MSP with the additional A330s. They already have their A330s come to MSP for Maintenance quite often.
 
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RWA380
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Re: Hawaiian to acquire additional A321/A330s, accelerated 767 retirement

Tue Dec 06, 2016 4:17 am

airzona11 wrote:
Both the HA 767 and A332 are great looking birds. Will miss seeing their 767s, no doubt they served HA well.

Will be interesting to see when PHX gets the A332. I say this bc anecdotally it appears the current flight is often full and the on my last few trips to the islands HA was always more expensive than US/AA.


HA flights to & from the mainland enjoy a high passenger count no matter the city served. I believe HA does evening maintenance on their 767's in PHX, so I bet it'll be one of, if not the last city to see the HA 767's.
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hkcanadaexpat
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Re: Hawaiian to acquire additional A321/A330s, accelerated 767 retirement

Tue Dec 06, 2016 4:22 am

If i were a betting man, at least 3 if not 6 of those 767s are going to end up with Air Canada Rouge and could well still feature in the Hawaii Islands for years to come!
 
MrBretz
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Re: Hawaiian to acquire additional A321/A330s, accelerated 767 retirement

Tue Dec 06, 2016 8:10 am

MSPNWA, certainly you are kidding. The HA 767's with 2-3-2 are far superior to 3-3 A32x seating or A330-200 2-4-2 seating. It is conceivable that HA might install slim line seats on the A321's just like they have on the their 717's. Can you imagine the "comfort" on one of those?
 
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XAM2175
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Re: Hawaiian to acquire additional A321/A330s, accelerated 767 retirement

Tue Dec 06, 2016 10:02 am

1989worstyear wrote:
It seems that all 757's and 767's built between 1999-04 are pieces of sh** that airlines can't seem to get rid of fast enough - they'll probably all be converted to beer cans since nobody wants them, if not hacked to bits to become freighters.

This can't be said of the newer Boeing models that were built at that time (737NG, 777) - which are still going strong about 12-18 years later.


What exactly leads you to that conclusion?

As far as I can tell, the major death knell for the 767 in recent times is that it cannot compete on efficiency grounds with the A330 (which entered service in 1994, against 1982 for the 767) and that its place in the market for capacity and range is being nibbled away at all sides by the A321, A330, and 787.

The 757 similarly suffers when compared in efficiency against newer competitors.

As to other Boeings from that time - the 777-300ER first flew in 2004 and that's the one everybody wants now, while 777-200As and other earlier builds are already finding their way to storage and scrap yards. 737NGs are still in demand, oh yes, but the 736 didn't rate too highly at the time and is even less desirable now, and the 73G doesn't have the strongest second-hand market either.

Meanwhile the 712 didn't really go anywhere at the time, was killed off with little fanfare, and is now one of the hottest second-hand frames not on the market with DL, HA, and QF all vying to grab as many as they can.

Markets change, mate.

As a personal aside, I believe the 767's departure from passenger service at any airline should be saddening as they are unquestionably the gold standard for passenger comfort in Y-class.
 
IceAir778
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Re: Hawaiian to acquire additional A321/A330s, accelerated 767 retirement

Tue Dec 06, 2016 12:37 pm

TC957 wrote:
I'd say WestJet should be good candidate to pick-up those newer 763's.


Iceair should be good candidate to pick-up those 763s ...
 
77H
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Re: Hawaiian to acquire additional A321/A330s, accelerated 767 retirement

Tue Dec 06, 2016 12:59 pm

flyfresno wrote:
OzarkD9S wrote:
Now what will replace the 717s? :stirthepot:

Glad to see this though. I keep hoping beyond hope that HA will set up some scissor hubs in Cali such as HNL/OGG/KOA-SAN-Pick Three Cities and do the same at OAK and SJC, maybe even ONT. Or even throw Hawaii-LAS-XXX into the mix. So far they've been loathe to due intra-Mainland ops but there may be a few opportunities for such an operation without ticking off the big boys.


You have to wonder whether the A321 will will be deployed on some of their inter-island routes, especially during parts of the day when there is a lot of connecting traffic from the mainland. Some of the current 717 routes have an insane number of frequencies (HNL-OGG has over 20 round trips per day) so I could see them replacing the 717s 2-to-1 without taking a major hit from reducing frequency but saving quite a bit of cash.

I definitely think you will see HA duplicating some current AS routes (particularly out of OGG) with the A321s, and probably adding service to a few of their current markets out of KOA. Aside from that, you might see a few new non-stop markets out of HNL that are too thin for the A330 (ONT, LGB, RNO, FAT, TUS, BOI, EUG). The biggest question would be whether HA will fly to the mainland from LIH, which is the thinnest of the four major Hawaiian markets and also has the shortest runways. Resurrecting the one-stop service that Aloha used to fly would be interesting, but would it be practical?


For interisland routes frequency is everything. HA and the other interisland carriers are not solely focused on tourist travel. Many people in the state have business to conduct on other islands. This is certainly not limited to commercial business. Frequency helps to ensure that people can move about the state in a very timely manner.

That said, there may be opportunity to up gauge particular flights that have higher volumes on tourism connecting traffic from HNL to the outer islands especially when positioning the plane for a mainland flight. I once had the pleasure of flying the 763 from HNL-OGG which was continuing on to PDX.

Where I see the 321's strength for HA will be competing with AS to the secondary West Coast cities. AS has been successful in exploiting demand from these cities that HA could not due to lack of proper aircraft. AQ started the trend of avoiding SFO/LAX and connecting the outer islands to the mainland. When they folded AS took up the mantle. HA instead focused on feeding the hub at HNL which is how AS gained so much market share. Outside of HNL, not counting interisland HA has relatively small/non-existent market share elsewhere. HA has strong brand recognition in the state and will finally have to proper aircraft. Expect to see HA do some big things in the coming years.

77H
 
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RayChuang
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Re: Hawaiian to acquire additional A321/A330s, accelerated 767 retirement

Tue Dec 06, 2016 1:31 pm

The HA A321neo's could fly longer inter-island routes like HNL-KOA on an "as-needed" basis. But the A321neo will likely to be used on routes from HNL, OGG and KOA to smaller cities on the US West Coast.
 
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nikeson13
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Re: Hawaiian to acquire additional A321/A330s, accelerated 767 retirement

Tue Dec 06, 2016 5:26 pm

Can't wait to see what HA does with these A321s, they will definitely change the game for Hawaiian-West Coast flying. It seems that HA has relatively focused on HNL, and OGG, But what I'm curious about is if HA will open more second and third tier airports from these big cities or will they spread out more equally across HNL/OGG/KOA/LIH. No matter what they do, AS definitely have a run for their money and it will definitely be interesting to watch coming forward.
Nikolas
 
MSPNWA
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Re: Hawaiian to acquire additional A321/A330s, accelerated 767 retirement

Tue Dec 06, 2016 6:18 pm

MrBretz wrote:
MSPNWA, certainly you are kidding. The HA 767's with 2-3-2 are far superior to 3-3 A32x seating or A330-200 2-4-2 seating. It is conceivable that HA might install slim line seats on the A321's just like they have on the their 717's. Can you imagine the "comfort" on one of those?


Not kidding. Read it again. I said except if the alternative is now an A321. And HA's A330s are far superior to their 767s. There's basically no difference between 2-3-2 and 2-4-2, and that's the only advantage you be guaranteed of with their 767s.
 
airzona11
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Re: Hawaiian to acquire additional A321/A330s, accelerated 767 retirement

Tue Dec 06, 2016 6:30 pm

RWA380 wrote:
airzona11 wrote:
Both the HA 767 and A332 are great looking birds. Will miss seeing their 767s, no doubt they served HA well.

Will be interesting to see when PHX gets the A332. I say this bc anecdotally it appears the current flight is often full and the on my last few trips to the islands HA was always more expensive than US/AA.


HA flights to & from the mainland enjoy a high passenger count no matter the city served. I believe HA does evening maintenance on their 767's in PHX, so I bet it'll be one of, if not the last city to see the HA 767's.


Great info, thank you.

Here is to hoping it goes A330 instead of A321.
 
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N202PA
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Re: Hawaiian to acquire additional A321/A330s, accelerated 767 retirement

Tue Dec 06, 2016 9:29 pm

Could the C-Series fill a niche in HA's fleet by replacing or supplementing the 717s? The CS300 would increase capacity on the interisland routes from 123 (717) to ~130-140 per flight depending on how tightly packed Economy is.
 
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SANFan
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Re: Hawaiian to acquire additional A321/A330s, accelerated 767 retirement

Tue Dec 06, 2016 10:15 pm

I was told a while back, by a reliable HA-source, that once the 321s arrive, cities such as SAN should see an increase in service, with nonstops to the outer islands. I'm sure this will also occur at other existing w/c HA stations, as well as some new HNL service from some new, smaller cities in the West.

In SAN's case, as well as other cities, HA will be playing catch up with AS, who has been flying to OGG, LIH & KOA, uncontested, as well as HNL, for a while now. It will be nice to have competition between 2 great airlines. (And oh yeah, it looks like WN might be nearing the start of service to The Islands as well...)

bb
 
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nikeson13
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Re: Hawaiian to acquire additional A321/A330s, accelerated 767 retirement

Tue Dec 06, 2016 10:20 pm

N202PA wrote:
Could the C-Series fill a niche in HA's fleet by replacing or supplementing the 717s? The CS300 would increase capacity on the inter-island routes from 123 (717) to ~130-140 per flight depending on how tightly packed Economy is.

Yes and no. Seat count is good replacement, enough cargo space. BUT, as we have talked about in at least 3 threads in the last year (I would link them but I can never work this search bar) on the HA 717 replacement options, the PurePower is just too untested atm to know if it can handle the temperature changes. Possibly the PW1200G (for MRJ) or PW1500G (for CSeries) may work, but more testing and specs need to probably be evaluated before going forwards.
Nikolas
 
azjubilee
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Re: Hawaiian to acquire additional A321/A330s, accelerated 767 retirement

Tue Dec 06, 2016 10:37 pm

SANFan wrote:
In SAN's case, as well as other cities, HA will be playing catch up with AS, who has been flying to OGG, LIH & KOA, uncontested, as well as HNL, for a while now. It will be nice to have competition between 2 great airlines. (And oh yeah, it looks like WN might be nearing the start of service to The Islands as well...)bb


Actually, though HA has mostly relied on widebody service to its HNL hub, it has offered connecting flights to all the neighbor islands since mainland service started in the 80s. The HA brand and reputation is known even without many nonstop flights to the neighbor islands, so while AS and the others have had narrowbody service over the years, it's not as if HA will be a newcomer. I don't see HA having any problem adding these narrowbody flights and increasing the breadth of service to/from the west coast. If the last several years of widebody service to LIH and KOA and an increased OGG schedule is any indication, the future looks bright for HA as their network evolves.
 
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SANFan
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Re: Hawaiian to acquire additional A321/A330s, accelerated 767 retirement

Tue Dec 06, 2016 11:08 pm

azjubilee wrote:
Actually, though HA has mostly relied on widebody service to its HNL hub, it has offered connecting flights to all the neighbor islands since mainland service started in the 80s. The HA brand and reputation is known even without many nonstop flights to the neighbor islands, so while AS and the others have had narrowbody service over the years, it's not as if HA will be a newcomer. I don't see HA having any problem adding these narrowbody flights and increasing the breadth of service to/from the west coast. If the last several years of widebody service to LIH and KOA and an increased OGG schedule is any indication, the future looks bright for HA as their network evolves.

I completely agree about HA's reputation and future outlook.

I can't, however, overlook the attraction and benefits of nonstops vs connecting service. Add to that the fact that AS is also a great brand with a fine reputation.

AS has made a success of 4 nonstop routes to Hawaii from SAN, while HA has tried several times to get even a second route, SAN-OGG, going, but couldn't ever make it work. (Even while AS was able to fly as many as double-daily 737s in the summer between the 2 cities for a few years.)

I do look forward to more than 1 daily departure from Lindbergh Field from HA, and see no reason why both cx shouldn't be successful serving multiple islands from here!

bb
 
747400sp
Posts: 3900
Joined: Sat Aug 09, 2003 7:27 pm

Re: Hawaiian to acquire additional A321/A330s, accelerated 767 retirement

Tue Dec 06, 2016 11:18 pm

Hello

I did not like the HA 767s at first, because they replaced the DC-10s, and I happily to see A330s flying between LAX and Hawaii, so goodbye 767s, hello to the better A330s. Now I an not so happily about the A321s coming.
 
azjubilee
Posts: 3721
Joined: Sat Apr 29, 2000 5:26 am

Re: Hawaiian to acquire additional A321/A330s, accelerated 767 retirement

Wed Dec 07, 2016 12:29 am

SANFan wrote:
I can't, however, overlook the attraction and benefits of nonstops vs connecting service. Add to that the fact that AS is also a great brand with a fine reputation. AS has made a success of 4 nonstop routes to Hawaii from SAN, while HA has tried several times to get even a second route, SAN-OGG, going, but couldn't ever make it work. (Even while AS was able to fly as many as double-daily 737s in the summer between the 2 cities for a few years.) I do look forward to more than 1 daily departure from Lindbergh Field from HA, and see no reason why both cx shouldn't be successful serving multiple islands from here!bb


HA has only ever had large capacity widebodies to fly their network. This is why OGG-SAN and OGG-PDX never really worked that well and why they had to rely on the HNL connecting hub. This is precisely why the 321neo's are being acquired. There's finally an airplane on the market that meets HA's needs and cost structure, to provide a narrowbody service and to rely less on connecting traffic. The same people that want to fly HA and have been making connections, will now have nonstop options. At the same time, people that want nonstop, but couldn't fly HA, just might look to HA again for their travel plans. The 321neo will allow HA to be more nimble and get creative with capacity/demand opportunities and open new markets.
 
77H
Posts: 1570
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2016 11:27 pm

Re: Hawaiian to acquire additional A321/A330s, accelerated 767 retirement

Wed Dec 07, 2016 2:59 am

SANFan wrote:
azjubilee wrote:
Actually, though HA has mostly relied on widebody service to its HNL hub, it has offered connecting flights to all the neighbor islands since mainland service started in the 80s. The HA brand and reputation is known even without many nonstop flights to the neighbor islands, so while AS and the others have had narrowbody service over the years, it's not as if HA will be a newcomer. I don't see HA having any problem adding these narrowbody flights and increasing the breadth of service to/from the west coast. If the last several years of widebody service to LIH and KOA and an increased OGG schedule is any indication, the future looks bright for HA as their network evolves.

I completely agree about HA's reputation and future outlook.

I can't, however, overlook the attraction and benefits of nonstops vs connecting service. Add to that the fact that AS is also a great brand with a fine reputation.

AS has made a success of 4 nonstop routes to Hawaii from SAN, while HA has tried several times to get even a second route, SAN-OGG, going, but couldn't ever make it work. (Even while AS was able to fly as many as double-daily 737s in the summer between the 2 cities for a few years.)

I do look forward to more than 1 daily departure from Lindbergh Field from HA, and see no reason why both cx shouldn't be successful serving multiple islands from here!

bb


As I mentioned up-thread, HA's ability to serve secondary West Coast cities from the Outer Islands has more to do with the aircraft type HA has been operating than its brand reputation, loyal following comparative to AS. It is much more costly to operate and fill a wide body over a narrow body. Moreover, AS is quite a bit larger than HA, with over 100 more aircraft and several more focus cities. When demand peaks, it is much easier for AS to add an narrow body extra section on a route than diverting a wide body to serve a destination that doesn't have consistent demand.

Lastly, when it comes to HA's ability to grab market share once it has the right tools (321N) I'll say this. The residents of Hawai'i are very proud of the land, their background, culture and all the little things that make Hawaii what it is. Hawaiian Airlines is part of that, it is the flag carrier of a state that often feels more like its own country. AS, while undoubtedly a great airline both to work for and fly on will never have the same brand recognition or loyal following HA has in the island chain. I am very confident that HA will shake up current market once the NEO's are on property.

Mahalo,
77H
 
b747400erf
Posts: 3165
Joined: Wed Jun 19, 2013 4:33 am

Re: Hawaiian to acquire additional A321/A330s, accelerated 767 retirement

Wed Dec 07, 2016 6:34 am

1989worstyear wrote:
It seems that all 757's and 767's built between 1999-04 are pieces of sh** that airlines can't seem to get rid of fast enough - they'll probably all be converted to beer cans since nobody wants them, if not hacked to bits to become freighters.

This can't be said of the newer Boeing models that were built at that time (737NG, 777) - which are still going strong about 12-18 years later.

Weren't they planning on dumping them all in 2017 anyway?


What decade is this? Being converted to freighters is not a bad thing and flying boxes is prestigious and good work for not only the airplane but the pilots too.
 
columba
Posts: 5237
Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2004 10:12 pm

Re: Hawaiian to acquire additional A321/A330s, accelerated 767 retirement

Wed Dec 07, 2016 11:06 am

OzarkD9S wrote:
Now what will replace the 717s? :stirthepot:

How about the Mitsubishi MRJ......
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
 
mjoelnir
Posts: 9393
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:06 pm

Re: Hawaiian to acquire additional A321/A330s, accelerated 767 retirement

Wed Dec 07, 2016 12:26 pm

IceAir778 wrote:
TC957 wrote:
I'd say WestJet should be good candidate to pick-up those newer 763's.


Iceair should be good candidate to pick-up those 763s ...


Wrong engines.
 
User avatar
c933103
Posts: 4506
Joined: Wed May 18, 2016 7:23 pm

Re: Hawaiian to acquire additional A321/A330s, accelerated 767 retirement

Wed Dec 07, 2016 2:39 pm

Cointrin330 wrote:
Inter island flying is tricky, because they need an aircraft who's engines won't overheat from the quick turns these routes generate. They keep buying second and third hand 717's but at some point, one has to wonder if they are going to replace them all, and with what? The 717 is the ideal plane for inter-island hops.

How about other engines like turboprops?
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MIflyer12
Posts: 8282
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: Hawaiian to acquire additional A321/A330s, accelerated 767 retirement

Wed Dec 07, 2016 5:20 pm

N202PA wrote:
Could the C-Series fill a niche in HA's fleet by replacing or supplementing the 717s? The CS300 would increase capacity on the interisland routes from 123 (717) to ~130-140 per flight depending on how tightly packed Economy is.


It's not a criticism of the C-Series but - IMHO - Hawaiian is way, way too small to have any economies of scale operating a 4th type. From today's WSJ.


Image

http://www.wsj.com/articles/justice-dep ... 1481031602
 
rlwynn
Posts: 1506
Joined: Fri Dec 15, 2000 3:35 am

Re: Hawaiian to acquire additional A321/A330s, accelerated 767 retirement

Wed Dec 07, 2016 5:50 pm

azjubilee wrote:
HA has only ever had large capacity widebodies to fly their network. This is why OGG-SAN and OGG-PDX never really worked that well and why they had to rely on the HNL connecting hub. This is precisely why the 321neo's are being acquired. There's finally an airplane on the market that meets HA's needs and cost structure, to provide a narrowbody service and to rely less on connecting traffic. The same people that want to fly HA and have been making connections, will now have nonstop options. At the same time, people that want nonstop, but couldn't fly HA, just might look to HA again for their travel plans. The 321neo will allow HA to be more nimble and get creative with capacity/demand opportunities and open new markets.


Image
I can drive faster than you
 
azjubilee
Posts: 3721
Joined: Sat Apr 29, 2000 5:26 am

Re: Hawaiian to acquire additional A321/A330s, accelerated 767 retirement

Wed Dec 07, 2016 6:23 pm

[quote="rlwynn"][/quote]

Semantics. True, the DC8 is a narrowbody, but it flew mostly in a worldwide charter operation and much less in the scheduled operation. The point remains, that since the L1011 days, widebodies have been the mainstay of the transpac fleet with HAL choosing to serve Hawaii via HNL and its connecting opportunities.
 
IceAir778
Posts: 106
Joined: Thu Feb 14, 2013 4:55 pm

Re: Hawaiian to acquire additional A321/A330s, accelerated 767 retirement

Wed Dec 07, 2016 9:47 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
IceAir778 wrote:
TC957 wrote:
I'd say WestJet should be good candidate to pick-up those newer 763's.


Iceair should be good candidate to pick-up those 763s ...


Wrong engines.


Yep, correct! I checked - thx though.

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