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Vimanav
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Plane Crash in Pakistan: PIA Flight 661

Wed Dec 07, 2016 12:05 pm

http://www.dawn.com/news/1301042/pia-flight-goes-missing-on-chitral-islamabad-route-reports

Appears to be PK661 operated by an ATR.

Hope it lands safely.

Prayers

Vimanav
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KarelXWB
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Re: PIA ATR from Chitral to Islamabad 'missing'

Wed Dec 07, 2016 12:13 pm

Doesn't look good:

We are receiving reports that PIA Flight #PK661, an ATR-42 from Chitral to Islamabad, has crashed


https://twitter.com/AviationSafety/stat ... 6377255937
What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.
 
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KTPAFlyer
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Re: PIA ATR from Chitral to Islamabad 'missing'

Wed Dec 07, 2016 12:15 pm

Have flown into Chitral myself, it is surrounded by mountains down in the middle of a valley. I'm not sure what the weather was like, but bad weather combined with treacherous terrain on all sides is a disaster waiting to happen. Hopefully everyone is safe, praying for the best.
 
Delta777Jet
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Re: PIA ATR from Chitral to Islamabad 'missing'

Wed Dec 07, 2016 12:18 pm

Info from Pakistan Webside.

Flight came from Peshawar and landet at Chitral at 14:38LT.
Then flight departed again at 15:30LT , STA in Islamabad at 16:40LT, still mentioned in-flight ! Should have landed 40 minutes ago.

Prayers for the passengers and Crew!
I still miss Trans World Airlines and the L-1011
 
michaelg90222
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Re: PIA ATR from Chitral to Islamabad 'missing'

Wed Dec 07, 2016 12:22 pm

Being reported as a crash on the BBC

Thoughts and hopes are with those on board.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-38238699
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caoimhin
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Re: PIA ATR from Chitral to Islamabad 'missing'

Wed Dec 07, 2016 12:41 pm

47 souls aboard. Thoughts and prayers to them and their family.
 
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Buyantukhaa
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Re: PIA ATR from Chitral to Islamabad 'missing'

Wed Dec 07, 2016 12:43 pm

I scratch my head, therefore I am.
 
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KarelXWB
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Re: PIA ATR from Chitral to Islamabad 'missing'

Wed Dec 07, 2016 12:48 pm

Plane appears to be a ATR-42-500.

What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.
 
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piedmontf284000
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Re: PIA ATR from Chitral to Islamabad 'missing'

Wed Dec 07, 2016 12:54 pm

This is not the first incident this plane has had. In May 2009, it was damaged when it suffered damage while landing at LHE.

The airplane ran off the runway, skidded 2,000 feet, slid across a two feet deep drainage ditch, and finally came to rest on a parallel runaway. The nose gear and main undercarriage were significantly damaged.
 
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piedmontf284000
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Re: PIA ATR from Chitral to Islamabad 'missing'

Wed Dec 07, 2016 12:56 pm

The plane is 9 years old. Built in 2007.
 
sh0rteh
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Re: PIA ATR from Chitral to Islamabad 'missing'

Wed Dec 07, 2016 12:57 pm

piedmontf284000 wrote:
This is not the first incident this plane has had. In May 2009, it was damaged when it suffered damage while landing at LHE.

The airplane ran off the runway, skidded 2,000 feet, slid across a two feet deep drainage ditch, and finally came to rest on a parallel runaway. The nose gear and main undercarriage were significantly damaged.



Also had an incident in 2014 with a compressor failure in the left engine

https://avherald.com/h?article=47acb83b&opt=0
 
sh0rteh
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Re: PIA ATR from Chitral to Islamabad 'missing'

Wed Dec 07, 2016 1:03 pm

There is a pax manifest online already which I will not post

Onboard were 42 pax. 31 males, 9 females and 2 infants

Hoping there is a chance for survivors
 
Flightsimboy
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Re: PIA ATR from Chitral to Islamabad 'missing'

Wed Dec 07, 2016 1:10 pm

PIA flight PK-661 crashes enroute to Islamabad - http://www.dawn.com/news/1301042

Reports indicate the famous personality Junaid Jamshed and his wife were onboard.
LAX772LR - "Answer to goofy question:" in response to my question about the B737-MAX8 being grounded. 48 hours later all B737-MAX8 grounded worldwide. Go figure!!
 
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KTPAFlyer
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Re: PIA ATR from Chitral to Islamabad 'missing'

Wed Dec 07, 2016 1:11 pm

Anybody in Islamabad know what the weather is like?

Low visibilty/bad weather has been cause for two high profile crashes in Margalla Hills before. In 2010, Airblue 202 crashed into the mountains killing 146 people due to high winds, low visibility, and dense rain. 2 years later, Bhoja 213 crashed in almost the same exact way, killing 121 people when it crashed into the same area, trapped in a microburst.

Obviously, we know nothing about the weather at all, hence this is all speculation, but if it is found to be a factor, combined with terrain, I would not be surprised at all. Don't underestimate this combination; it is extremely dangerous and has resulted in over 260 casualties. The location of this crash is eerily similar to the last two. This incident will bring that number to over 300, and will likely result in some significant changes to low visibility/bad weather procedures for ISB.
 
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piedmontf284000
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Re: PIA ATR from Chitral to Islamabad 'missing'

Wed Dec 07, 2016 1:12 pm

First images of the crash site

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... rline.html

Although they are way off on the images of the aircraft that involved
 
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KTPAFlyer
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Re: PIA ATR from Chitral to Islamabad 'missing'

Wed Dec 07, 2016 1:15 pm

Image

Image
 
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KarelXWB
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Re: PIA ATR from Chitral to Islamabad 'missing'

Wed Dec 07, 2016 1:15 pm

Looks like the plane crashed into a mountain.

Image

Image

Via https://twitter.com/AsadAnsari219/statu ... 7365830656
What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.
 
Boeingphan
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Re: PIA ATR from Chitral to Islamabad 'missing'

Wed Dec 07, 2016 1:18 pm

AVH says they called with problems with the left engine and then it fell off radar. They also said it's bleak outlook for survivors which the images above show.
 
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KTPAFlyer
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Re: PIA ATR from Chitral to Islamabad 'missing'

Wed Dec 07, 2016 1:25 pm

sh0rteh wrote:
Also had an incident in 2014 with a compressor failure in the left engine

https://avherald.com/h?article=47acb83b&opt=0


Boeingphan wrote:
AVH says they called with problems with the left engine and then it fell off radar. They also said it's bleak outlook for survivors which the images above show.


Looks like the left engine came back to haunt them. RIP
 
Scinfaxi
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Re: PIA ATR from Chitral to Islamabad 'missing'

Wed Dec 07, 2016 1:25 pm

Those are chilling pictures. My thoughts go to all affected.

Quick question - in the link in post #1, there's a picture of the passenger manifest with seats. All the ATR42s I've worked with have rows 1 - 13. But these passengers have seats like 30C and 26J etc!?
 
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Rajahdhani
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Re: PIA ATR from Chitral to Islamabad 'missing'

Wed Dec 07, 2016 1:32 pm

My prayers go out to those that have lost loved ones in this accident.

Anyone know if ATR has dispatched a crash-team yet, or how long it might take?

Is the crash location a secure/relatively easy one to get to?

Let's hope for this to be the end of the streak...
 
Flightsimboy
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Re: PIA ATR from Chitral to Islamabad 'missing'

Wed Dec 07, 2016 1:36 pm

The heading should change from missing to crashed.
LAX772LR - "Answer to goofy question:" in response to my question about the B737-MAX8 being grounded. 48 hours later all B737-MAX8 grounded worldwide. Go figure!!
 
zionite
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Re: PIA ATR from Chitral to Islamabad 'missing'

Wed Dec 07, 2016 1:39 pm

Scinfaxi wrote:
Those are chilling pictures. My thoughts go to all affected.

Quick question - in the link in post #1, there's a picture of the passenger manifest with seats. All the ATR42s I've worked with have rows 1 - 13. But these passengers have seats like 30C and 26J etc!?


Seat plan: http://www.piac.com.pk/PIA_PolicynTerms/SeatCharts/ATR42-500CABINLAYOUT.pdf
 
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Saleem
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Re: PIA ATR from Chitral to Islamabad 'missing'

Wed Dec 07, 2016 1:40 pm

Famous celebrity of Pakistan Mr Junaid Jamshed and his wife was also in the passengers.

The local TV channels claiming that before flight there was problem in the engine and last message from the flight was problem in engine.
 
richierich
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Re: PIA ATR from Chitral to Islamabad 'missing'

Wed Dec 07, 2016 2:03 pm

When a plane goes missing and crashes, like this one, it is the hope that the wreckage that is found looks more or less like a plane, for the best chance of survivors of course. Unfortunately this wreckage is quite broken and on fire, and it appears that the aircraft flew into the mountain either CFIT or due to a malfunction causing a loss of control. Either way, the chance of survivors looks to be close to zero here, and that is extremely sad for all of the victims and their families who will by now be realizing that their loves ones are gone. RIP.
None shall pass!!!!
 
A350
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Re: PIA ATR from Chitral to Islamabad 'missing'

Wed Dec 07, 2016 2:04 pm

Despite the crash site sems to be not at extremely high altitude since the pictures show something like grass rather than snow. Does anybody know the altitude of the crash site and what altitude the ATR42 can reach / keep with one engine out? Could this crash somehow be related with a lack of capability to keep above the mountains after loosing one engine like as it was sometimes discussed for Himalaya and Karakorum?
 
B747forever
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Re: PIA ATR from Chitral to Islamabad 'missing'

Wed Dec 07, 2016 2:13 pm

How come the pax list is released within hours of a crash? Quite inappropriate when it happens even before the wreckage is found and the fate of those on board is unknown.
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Chaostheory
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Re: PIA ATR from Chitral to Islamabad 'missing'

Wed Dec 07, 2016 2:16 pm

Any 42-500 equipped with 127F or M engines will have good one engine out performance. It was for that very reason the 42-500 was trialed and selected by PIA. The temps at this time of the year shouldn't cause any issues and solely on the basis of images/video published, visibility seems to have been quite good.

It's worth bearing in mind that PIA's last fatal crash was caused by a failure to handle an engine out on a Fokker 27 and PIA did crash/write off a substantial part of their F27 fleet.
Last edited by Chaostheory on Wed Dec 07, 2016 2:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
Dominion301
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Re: PIA ATR from Chitral to Islamabad 'missing'

Wed Dec 07, 2016 2:18 pm

RIP to those souls on board. At first glance in the photos, it does not appear that weather was a factor. Hope it's not a case again of shutting down the wrong engine.
 
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panzerfaust
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Re: PIA ATR from Chitral to Islamabad 'missing'

Wed Dec 07, 2016 2:22 pm

RIP all 47 who were on board. :(
 
VSMUT
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Re: PIA ATR from Chitral to Islamabad 'missing'

Wed Dec 07, 2016 3:17 pm

A350 wrote:
Does anybody know the altitude of the crash site and what altitude the ATR42 can reach / keep with one engine out? Could this crash somehow be related with a lack of capability to keep above the mountains after loosing one engine like as it was sometimes discussed for Himalaya and Karakorum?


The drift-down charts for the ATR 72-500 (taken from FCOM 3) say that it should be able to maintain anything between 12.300 ft and 24.100 ft in the current weather conditions, depending on the weight.

The highest MSA between Chitral and Islamabad is 18.500 ft, but the crash supposedly happened just 25 nm from Islamabad, where it is only 9.700 ft.
 
winstonlegthigh
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Re: PIA ATR from Chitral to Islamabad 'missing'

Wed Dec 07, 2016 5:26 pm

CNN reporting that 43 bodies have been recovered. http://www.cnn.com/2016/12/07/asia/paki ... index.html
Never has gravity been so uplifting.
 
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Aesma
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Re: PIA ATR from Chitral to Islamabad 'missing'

Wed Dec 07, 2016 5:45 pm

I remember the Airblue crash very well, the cause was poor piloting and poor CRM :

In particular, the report noted that the captain ignored or did not properly respond to a multitude of Air Traffic Control directives and automated terrain warning systems. The report also claimed that the first officer passively accepted the captain's actions, after the captain on multiple occasions took a "harsh, snobbish and contrary" tone with the first officer and "berated" him.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
ZKCIF
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Re: Plane Crash: PK 661

Wed Dec 07, 2016 8:27 pm

6 crew sounds like a lot for the flight. 2 pilots + 2 flight attendants, a mechanic and a security guy maybe? or some training was involved?
 
Ammad
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Re: PIA ATR from Chitral to Islamabad 'missing'

Wed Dec 07, 2016 9:15 pm

sh0rteh wrote:
There is a pax manifest online already which I will not post

Onboard were 42 pax. 31 males, 9 females and 2 infants

Hoping there is a chance for survivors


PIA official page is now showing names of all of the passengers.

www.piac.aero
 
Ammad
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Re: Plane Crash in Pakistan: PIA Flight 661

Thu Dec 08, 2016 12:45 am

Captain had experience of 12000 flight hours and was nicknamed Master of ATR.
One First Officer had experience of 1000 flight hours.
Another First Officer had experience of 500 flight hours.

AP-BHO air frame had accumulated 18,740 flight hours.

Youtube channel of pilot in command.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCT-I9Y ... HGd7QqSJpw

Sadly he uploaded couple of videos just before ill fated flight.
 
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787fan8
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Re: Plane Crash in Pakistan: PIA Flight 661

Thu Dec 08, 2016 12:58 am

My thoughts and prayers are with those lost in this terrible crash.
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Future Auburn graduate
 
edmaircraft
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Re: Plane Crash in Pakistan: PIA Flight 661

Thu Dec 08, 2016 1:24 am

There are far too many of these incidents lately...one life lost is one life too many. May each soul rest in peace; prayers for the families...
Let me up!
 
ltbewr
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Re: Plane Crash in Pakistan: PIA Flight 661

Thu Dec 08, 2016 2:01 am

Have the CVR and FDR been recovered or are recoverable ? If so, then along with the ATC recordings we should get a preliminary idea of the probable cause of this flight fairly soon. No matter where and who are the victims, we here are all concerned as to this loss of lives.
 
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BirdBrain
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Re: Plane Crash in Pakistan: PIA Flight 661

Thu Dec 08, 2016 3:04 am

Sad day for aviation. Thoughts and prayers with all those affected. Looking at the Captain's youtube channel shows his love for aviation. RIP all those lost in this tragedy.
 
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OA940
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Re: Plane Crash in Pakistan: PIA Flight 661

Thu Dec 08, 2016 12:16 pm

Jesus Christ those are some ugly pics. RIP to all onboard. Could this be poor flying? The info I've seen so far seems to show that the only problem was a regular engine failure (not uncontained, aka the engine just shutting off) and I don't think they would've attempted to land a small plane in severe weather. Also there was a trainee pilot onboard, which means he could've been at the controls and thus could've mishandled the failure.
A350/CSeries = bae
 
SyeaphanR
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Re: Plane Crash in Pakistan: PIA Flight 661

Thu Dec 08, 2016 1:08 pm

OA940 wrote:
Jesus Christ those are some ugly pics. RIP to all onboard. Could this be poor flying? The info I've seen so far seems to show that the only problem was a regular engine failure (not uncontained, aka the engine just shutting off) and I don't think they would've attempted to land a small plane in severe weather. Also there was a trainee pilot onboard, which means he could've been at the controls and thus could've mishandled the failure.


Oh, no. not a Trans Asia repeat....
 
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OA940
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Re: Plane Crash in Pakistan: PIA Flight 661

Fri Dec 09, 2016 11:43 am

SyeaphanR wrote:
OA940 wrote:
Jesus Christ those are some ugly pics. RIP to all onboard. Could this be poor flying? The info I've seen so far seems to show that the only problem was a regular engine failure (not uncontained, aka the engine just shutting off) and I don't think they would've attempted to land a small plane in severe weather. Also there was a trainee pilot onboard, which means he could've been at the controls and thus could've mishandled the failure.


Oh, no. not a Trans Asia repeat....


Unfortunately it could be possible.
A350/CSeries = bae
 
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OA940
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Re: Plane Crash in Pakistan: PIA Flight 661

Fri Dec 09, 2016 11:58 am

New info says the engine exploded and damaged the wing. Good to see the crash wasn't pilot error, but I hope it's not a design flaw.
A350/CSeries = bae
 
Blankbarcode
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Re: Plane Crash in Pakistan: PIA Flight 661

Fri Dec 09, 2016 1:15 pm

OA940 wrote:
New info says the engine exploded and damaged the wing. Good to see the crash wasn't pilot error, but I hope it's not a design flaw.


I wouldn't be so quick to jump to conclusions, regardless of whatever anyone says. Yes, including officials. Because the only way to know what happened up there right now is if somebody was up there themselves.
This is going to take months of investigation, and we must be patient. Unless we have a CVR transcript of the pilots saying that the engine exploded, I'd recommend to wait it out.

Speculation, while part of human nature, must be avoided.
 
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Aesma
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Re: Plane Crash in Pakistan: PIA Flight 661

Fri Dec 09, 2016 1:56 pm

Every crash with an eye witness, and many crashes with no real eye witness, people will say "the plane was on fire before it crashed". In reality, few were on fire.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
VSMUT
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Re: Plane Crash in Pakistan: PIA Flight 661

Fri Dec 09, 2016 2:44 pm

OA940 wrote:
New info says the engine exploded and damaged the wing. Good to see the crash wasn't pilot error, but I hope it's not a design flaw.


While I don't deny that it is possible, the engine of the ATR located almost completely ahead of the wing. If subject to an uncontained engine failure that causes damage so far back that it can damage vital parts of the wing, then surely they would first and foremost have been busy with decompression procedures as a result of turbine parts piercing the fuselage too.
 
Flaps
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Re: Plane Crash in Pakistan: PIA Flight 661

Fri Dec 09, 2016 3:09 pm

An engine explosion that damaged the engine mounts could be catastrophic no matter what other factors come into play. If an engine explosion left an engine hanging out of position or caused it to come off due to failure of the mounts or spar, the amount of structural damage would be significant. Not suggesting that happened here, just answering those who wonder how an engine failure could cause significant enough damage to bring a plane down.
 
VSMUT
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Re: Plane Crash in Pakistan: PIA Flight 661

Fri Dec 09, 2016 4:24 pm

OA940 wrote:
New info says the engine exploded and damaged the wing. Good to see the crash wasn't pilot error, but I hope it's not a design flaw.


Not quite. Even if it did happen as described, there are still procedures to be correctly applied by the crew in order to prevent a crash. Unless we are talking about a completely unflyable scenario as described by Flaps.
 
o0OOO0oChris
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Re: Plane Crash in Pakistan: PIA Flight 661

Sat Dec 10, 2016 5:13 pm

VSMUT wrote:
OA940 wrote:
New info says the engine exploded and damaged the wing. Good to see the crash wasn't pilot error, but I hope it's not a design flaw.


While I don't deny that it is possible, the engine of the ATR located almost completely ahead of the wing. If subject to an uncontained engine failure that causes damage so far back that it can damage vital parts of the wing, then surely they would first and foremost have been busy with decompression procedures as a result of turbine parts piercing the fuselage too.

The Embraer 120ER`s engines are mounted ahead of the wing, too. Despite that front mounting concept, a propeller failure dislodged the entire engine assembly, deforming the engine nacelle and distorting the wing's profile. As a result, the 120er was just barely controllable:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantic_Southeast_Airlines_Flight_529
Uneducated guess: I would assume an engine failure on the ATR may be able to distort the wing`s profile too if it creates vibrations strong enough or the propeller was involved.

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