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LAXintl
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United drops IAD-Manchester UK

Wed Dec 07, 2016 5:33 pm

United Airlines citing weaker demand will not resume IAD-Manchester UK service in 2017.

The flights were scheduled to resume on April 6th and operate daily next summer using 757s.

Flights have been zero'd out in GDS.

UA retains its EWR-MAN service on the 757.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
FSDan
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Re: United drops IAD-Manchester UK

Wed Dec 07, 2016 5:48 pm

It seems a bit odd to me that EWR-MAN is just at 1x daily 752. I think it used to be 2x daily 752s before they started IAD-MAN. I could see EWR-MAN being a good candidate for an upgauge to a 763 with IAD-MAN being cancelled. However, with MAN getting lots of additional nonstop options to various U.S. cities that didn't exist a few years ago (e.g. SFO, LAX, MIA, BOS), perhaps it does make sense that there is a reduction in capacity in the EWR-MAN market.
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skipness1E
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Re: United drops IAD-Manchester UK

Wed Dec 07, 2016 5:59 pm

EWR-MAN used to be DC10-30 then B777-200ER. Changed days.
 
msycajun
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Re: United drops IAD-Manchester UK

Wed Dec 07, 2016 6:02 pm

Wow, UA TATL routes are dropping like flies.
 
User001
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Re: United drops IAD-Manchester UK

Wed Dec 07, 2016 6:03 pm

Washington was always the weakest of the MAN TATl portfolio. UA would probably do better serving Chicago instead, or whacking a code on the new Houston route with SQ?

With so much capacity being added by TCX/VS/DY next year, loosing IAD was always a question of when, not if.
 
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piedmont762
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Re: United drops IAD-Manchester UK

Wed Dec 07, 2016 6:04 pm

skipness1E wrote:
EWR-MAN used to be DC10-30 then B777-200ER. Changed days.


Absolutely was and definitely remember this growing up in NJ in the 1990s-early 2000s. This route can easily handle a 763, I think at least. Same with DUB.

"Wow, UA TATL routes are dropping like flies."

Factors include Brexit, gradually weaker demand for TATL over a growing period of time, EU currency issues etc. Also I always was in the camp of skepticism that UA/CO kept many of it's TATL network in tact for network purposes only and quite a few routes barely made money or broke even. You've seen this already with UA making EWR-ARN seasonal and the duds of EWR-IST/DUS/BFS/CPH etc.

EDIT: Just saw the thread on EWR-OSL dropping as well. Not surprising in the least.
Last edited by LuxuryLiner767 on Wed Dec 07, 2016 6:14 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
Danfearn77
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Re: United drops IAD-Manchester UK

Wed Dec 07, 2016 6:12 pm

Those 752's are bettered. MT have a better product, VS will have a much inferior product when they take over JFK from DL next year and then there is SQ, I'd slap my code on that if I was UA and route people through there.
Eagles may soar high, but weasels dont get sucked into jet engines!
 
DobboDobbo
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Re: United drops IAD-Manchester UK

Wed Dec 07, 2016 6:16 pm

If the commercial terms are right, UA running passengers through IAH (via codeshare with SQ) and EWR (B763) seems to make sense.

Only other route they might try is ORD, where UA have a major hub, and AA perform terribly.
 
klwright69
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Re: United drops IAD-Manchester UK

Wed Dec 07, 2016 6:43 pm

This isn't a surprise. Someone in another thread once mentioned that this route is not a star performer. Don't forget that UA also dropped NCL as well as BFS. Only the strong remain. Again the plane is probably better used on US transcons.
 
stratocruiser
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Re: United drops IAD-Manchester UK

Wed Dec 07, 2016 7:28 pm

Should result in a few more passengers feeding through the DUB hub for the daily EI flight to IAD.
 
codc10
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Re: United drops IAD-Manchester UK

Wed Dec 07, 2016 7:33 pm

LuxuryLiner767 wrote:
skipness1E wrote:
EWR-MAN used to be DC10-30 then B777-200ER. Changed days.


Absolutely was and definitely remember this growing up in NJ in the 1990s-early 2000s. This route can easily handle a 763, I think at least. Same with DUB.

"Wow, UA TATL routes are dropping like flies."

Factors include Brexit, gradually weaker demand for TATL over a growing period of time, EU currency issues etc. Also I always was in the camp of skepticism that UA/CO kept many of it's TATL network in tact for network purposes only and quite a few routes barely made money or broke even. You've seen this already with UA making EWR-ARN seasonal and the duds of EWR-IST/DUS/BFS/CPH etc.

EDIT: Just saw the thread on EWR-OSL dropping as well. Not surprising in the least.


EWR-DUS was dropped by CO post-9/11 and did not return on Continental. It is currently served with Lufthansa A340-600 metal and for all intents and purposes, is a United flight as well. EWR-CGN went away around the time of the implementation of the JV due to its proximity to DUS and said EWR service. STR was cut after the market did not perform well, with MBUSA leaving Montvale,NJ and a frequent winter diversion on a 757. Plus its proximity to MUC and ease of FRA train connections to downtown Stuttgart militated against the service.
 
wenders825
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Re: United drops IAD-Manchester UK

Wed Dec 07, 2016 7:42 pm

codc10 wrote:
LuxuryLiner767 wrote:
skipness1E wrote:
EWR-MAN used to be DC10-30 then B777-200ER. Changed days.


Absolutely was and definitely remember this growing up in NJ in the 1990s-early 2000s. This route can easily handle a 763, I think at least. Same with DUB.

"Wow, UA TATL routes are dropping like flies."

Factors include Brexit, gradually weaker demand for TATL over a growing period of time, EU currency issues etc. Also I always was in the camp of skepticism that UA/CO kept many of it's TATL network in tact for network purposes only and quite a few routes barely made money or broke even. You've seen this already with UA making EWR-ARN seasonal and the duds of EWR-IST/DUS/BFS/CPH etc.

EDIT: Just saw the thread on EWR-OSL dropping as well. Not surprising in the least.


EWR-DUS was dropped by CO post-9/11 and did not return on Continental. It is currently served with Lufthansa A340-600 metal and for all intents and purposes, is a United flight as well. EWR-CGN went away around the time of the implementation of the JV due to its proximity to DUS and said EWR service. STR was cut after the market did not perform well, with MBUSA leaving Montvale,NJ and a frequent winter diversion on a 757. Plus its proximity to MUC and ease of FRA train connections to downtown Stuttgart militated against the service.

STR is not that close to MUC.
 
redrooster3
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Re: United drops IAD-Manchester UK

Wed Dec 07, 2016 7:48 pm

Thats two 752s freed up from TATL service....wonder where they're going...
Marry one of us, and you'll fly for free!
 
sk736
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Re: United drops IAD-Manchester UK

Wed Dec 07, 2016 7:51 pm

LuxuryLiner767 wrote:
skipness1E wrote:
EWR-MAN used to be DC10-30 then B777-200ER. Changed days.


Absolutely was and definitely remember this growing up in NJ in the 1990s-early 2000s. This route can easily handle a 763, I think at least. Same with DUB.

"Wow, UA TATL routes are dropping like flies."

Factors include Brexit, gradually weaker demand for TATL over a growing period of time, EU currency issues etc. Also I always was in the camp of skepticism that UA/CO kept many of it's TATL network in tact for network purposes only and quite a few routes barely made money or broke even. You've seen this already with UA making EWR-ARN seasonal and the duds of EWR-IST/DUS/BFS/CPH etc.

EDIT: Just saw the thread on EWR-OSL dropping as well. Not surprising in the least.



What rubbish! We're well over two years away (at least) from Brexit and nobody yet fully understands the impact. To suggest UA dropped a route because of Brexit is ill-informed tosh.
 
B747forever
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Re: United drops IAD-Manchester UK

Wed Dec 07, 2016 7:52 pm

redrooster3 wrote:
Thats two 752s freed up from TATL service....wonder where they're going...


Probably on some domestic routes. Doubt they will open new TATL routes with those 757s with so many carriers complaining about weaker demand and yields across the pond.
Work Hard, Fly Right
 
User001
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Re: United drops IAD-Manchester UK

Wed Dec 07, 2016 8:02 pm

It's worth noting that while airlines are supposedly complaining of weaker demand on the Atlantic, Manchester may have lost Washington, but, compared to Summer 16 has gained for Summer 17 in the following:

Thomas Cook:
Extra Los Angeles, Orlando, Las Vegas, New York and Boston. New San Fransisco. Up to 8 extra weekly flights.

Norwegian:
New Stewart, Providence and Fort Lauderdale to be announced. 9 new weekly flights

Singapore:
New Houston (started Oct but new for S17) 5 weekly flights

Virgin Atlantic:
New San Fransisco, Boston and New York JFK. Extra Orlando and Las Vegas. Up to 16 new weekly flights (JFK takes over from Delta but still represents extra seats of A333 versus B767)

So, yes, some airlines may be faltering, but, to me, it doesn't smack instantly of a weaker demand, in terms of Manchester. A loss of 7 flights versus an increase of up to 38 weekly flights doesn't scream 'weakness and loss of demand'.
 
commavia
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Re: United drops IAD-Manchester UK

Wed Dec 07, 2016 8:24 pm

User001 wrote:
It's worth noting that while airlines are supposedly complaining of weaker demand on the Atlantic, Manchester may have lost Washington, but, compared to Summer 16 has gained for Summer 17 in the following:

User001 wrote:
So, yes, some airlines may be faltering, but, to me, it doesn't smack instantly of a weaker demand, in terms of Manchester. A loss of 7 flights versus an increase of up to 38 weekly flights doesn't scream 'weakness and loss of demand'.


Indeed. In fact, I suspect that growing competition may actually play a larger role in this cancellation than economic weakness or currency. U.S. airlines are facing a weaker transatlantic pricing environment than they have had in years - due largely to the proliferation of competition from new, and often lower-cost, rivals. As such, it seems entirely logical to pull marginal flying and concentrate on the places where they have the highest chance of generating more premium yields.

IAD-MAN seems like a particular easy cut to justify given that United can still provide online access to the market via the still-year-round EWR flight.
 
codc10
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Re: United drops IAD-Manchester UK

Wed Dec 07, 2016 8:33 pm

wenders825 wrote:
STR is not that close to MUC.


Close enough that their respective catchment areas have some overlap. MUC isn't a great STR alternative, and FRA is a much easier train connection, but I've done Stuttgart to Munich Hbf via train and it's rather painless.
 
peterj324
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Re: United drops IAD-Manchester UK

Wed Dec 07, 2016 9:12 pm

IAD-MAN has been on the chopping block for a long time due to poor load factors. I'm hoping that Virgin Atlantic or Thomas Cook jump into the market but I'm not getting my hopes up. These 757's from IAD-MAN and EWR-OSL will probably just be used for additional Transcon or Hawaii flights. Or they might end up being used to retire older 757's.
 
sevenair
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Re: United drops IAD-Manchester UK

Wed Dec 07, 2016 9:31 pm

Factors do no include Brexit. Excuses included Brexit.

The United Kingdom is still a fully paid up member of the EU and shall continue to be so for quite some time.
 
SurfandSnow
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Re: United drops IAD-Manchester UK

Wed Dec 07, 2016 9:55 pm

I can't say I'm surprised. It's not like MAN is a popular destination for American tourists (or partner hub), and it's not like IAD offers British passengers much onward connectivity to their favorite destinations in Florida and the Caribbean. UA's abominable hub facilities at IAD, ongoing Brexit uncertainties and the looming threat of Norwegian competition probably weren't doing this service any favors either.
Flying in the middle seat of coach is much better than not flying at all!
 
n272wa
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Re: United drops IAD-Manchester UK

Wed Dec 07, 2016 10:03 pm

Not surprising to see this happen. In any case, the reality is that these capacity increases mentioned above on Manchester's TATL network are pretty much summer seasonal services only anyway.... SFO, LAX, ORD, BOS, MIA are all seasonal. So saying that the demand from MAN to the US is not weak is missing the mark. If demand was so strong as indicated above, then surely these routes would be year round.
 
DobboDobbo
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Re: United drops IAD-Manchester UK

Wed Dec 07, 2016 10:09 pm

The extent to which IAD survived on transfer traffic, this has been eroded by direct flights bypassing IAD and poor transfer facilities at IAD.
 
DFW789ER
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Re: United drops IAD-Manchester UK

Wed Dec 07, 2016 10:09 pm

DobboDobbo wrote:
If the commercial terms are right, UA running passengers through IAH (via codeshare with SQ) and EWR (B763) seems to make sense.

Only other route they might try is ORD, where UA have a major hub, and AA perform terribly.


AA is performing terribly at ORD? Could fool me. I cant recall the last time (of many) flights out of there that were not packed.
 
DobboDobbo
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Re: United drops IAD-Manchester UK

Wed Dec 07, 2016 10:14 pm

ORD-MAN.

Frequently late or cancelled, last minute equipment swaps. A route that carried around 250k passengers a year I n the early 2000s is now down to the 60-80k range.
 
User001
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Re: United drops IAD-Manchester UK

Wed Dec 07, 2016 10:15 pm

N272wa

Can I ask what your issue is with Manchester exactly?

This is the second time I have seen you take an issue with Manchester getting increases, and seem to derive the thought.

So what if the increases are over the summer? It's no different to Edinburgh that has a huge US seasonal disparity, and that does attract a fair amount of inbound USA pax. it's also no different to how many secondary EU TATL works, so, I'm not sure why you seem to revel in singling Manchester out (in that viewing your post history, you don't seem to have gone on any other airports thread to crap all over their success stories).

You say summer seasonal indicates weak demand. Ok, so, with the Thomas Cook averaging 90% loads across its US network this summer, what exactly was it that filled those aircraft? Oh that's right, demand.

Just because winter is slightly weaker, does not automatically write off a destination as weak demand. As we are talking about Summer, this is the period that MAN is strongest so, the increase comments are completely valid. The fact is, UA has cut back in the same period of large growth.

Let's not forget your beloved Dublin used to suffer this issue too, many of its US carrier traffic was seasonal, but look at DUB now, it's got a lot better. Who is to say that isn't where Manchester is currently?

The US govt also selected MAN for USPC in the near future as a point that sees high passenger flows, better go and tell them it's a waste of money, no demand, no one will be using it!

You seem very quick to write Manchester off, and almost lambast the fact it has aspirations, but every airport has to start somewhere to grow, and this seems to be the bit you don't comprehend. I notice you never replied to my comment about your last rant, so, not expecting a reply to this one either.
 
Boeing74741R
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Re: United drops IAD-Manchester UK

Wed Dec 07, 2016 10:21 pm

LuxuryLiner767 wrote:
skipness1E wrote:
EWR-MAN used to be DC10-30 then B777-200ER. Changed days.


Absolutely was and definitely remember this growing up in NJ in the 1990s-early 2000s. This route can easily handle a 763, I think at least. Same with DUB.

"Wow, UA TATL routes are dropping like flies."

Factors include Brexit, gradually weaker demand for TATL over a growing period of time, EU currency issues etc. Also I always was in the camp of skepticism that UA/CO kept many of it's TATL network in tact for network purposes only and quite a few routes barely made money or broke even. You've seen this already with UA making EWR-ARN seasonal and the duds of EWR-IST/DUS/BFS/CPH etc.

EDIT: Just saw the thread on EWR-OSL dropping as well. Not surprising in the least.


Brexit is just a convenient excuse, albeit a weak one for the time being when other airlines are continuing to grow their TATL portfolios from MAN, SQ recently routing IAH flights through MAN and today's news about Norwegian intending to launch TATL flights from MAN.

Danfearn77 wrote:
Those 752's are bettered. MT have a better product, VS will have a much inferior product when they take over JFK from DL next year and then there is SQ, I'd slap my code on that if I was UA and route people through there.


Hmm...having flown both VS and DL in the last 12 months, I'd say VS has the edge over DL and the benefit of a much stronger brand presence and awareness in the UK than DL. Both are better than AA's Y product from MAN on their 757s and 767s and was one reason why when I flew MAN-JFK last year I opted for DL over AA.

klwright69 wrote:
This isn't a surprise. Someone in another thread once mentioned that this route is not a star performer. Don't forget that UA also dropped NCL as well as BFS. Only the strong remain. Again the plane is probably better used on US transcons.


I do wonder whether IAD has historically been a "weak" route from MAN as bmi pulled the route a few years before pulling out from MAN completely on long haul.

User001 wrote:
It's worth noting that while airlines are supposedly complaining of weaker demand on the Atlantic, Manchester may have lost Washington, but, compared to Summer 16 has gained for Summer 17 in the following:

Thomas Cook:
Extra Los Angeles, Orlando, Las Vegas, New York and Boston. New San Fransisco. Up to 8 extra weekly flights.

Norwegian:
New Stewart, Providence and Fort Lauderdale to be announced. 9 new weekly flights

Singapore:
New Houston (started Oct but new for S17) 5 weekly flights

Virgin Atlantic:
New San Fransisco, Boston and New York JFK. Extra Orlando and Las Vegas. Up to 16 new weekly flights (JFK takes over from Delta but still represents extra seats of A333 versus B767)

So, yes, some airlines may be faltering, but, to me, it doesn't smack instantly of a weaker demand, in terms of Manchester. A loss of 7 flights versus an increase of up to 38 weekly flights doesn't scream 'weakness and loss of demand'.


Agreed. Time will tell whether the market is strong at MAN and whether the likes of VS/DL, MT, SQ and soon D8 were right to open up more non-stop TATL routes from MAN. I for one believe the market is there.

Another fact which amongst some of the doom and gloom that's being conveniently overlooked is that MAN will be getting US Pre-Clearance in a few years time, so something must be going right both now and projected for the future.

SurfandSnow wrote:
I can't say I'm surprised. It's not like MAN is a popular destination for American tourists (or partner hub), and it's not like IAD offers British passengers much onward connectivity to their favorite destinations in Florida and the Caribbean. UA's abominable hub facilities at IAD, ongoing Brexit uncertainties and the looming threat of Norwegian competition probably weren't doing this service any favors either.


Again, Brexit is just a convenient excuse when the formal process to leave the EU hasn't yet started (and may well never happen). Personally, I fear the worst over Brexit, but nobody knows what will happen and so far the UK economy appears to be showing resilience, despite the pound taking a battering against the US dollar and the euro.

As for the other factors, fair point about inbound tourism, but the US is a popular destination for British tourists. However, with the great respect to Washington I'm not sure whether it's as big of a pull than some other US cities and areas.

As for Norwegian, they can't be blamed for this as they haven't said anything about launching a competing route to IAD or BWI from MAN.
 
n272wa
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Re: United drops IAD-Manchester UK

Wed Dec 07, 2016 10:37 pm

User001 wrote:
N272wa

Can I ask what your issue is with Manchester exactly?

This is the second time I have seen you take an issue with Manchester getting increases, and seem to derive the thought.

So what if the increases are over the summer? It's no different to Edinburgh that has a huge US seasonal disparity, and that does attract a fair amount of inbound USA pax. it's also no different to how many secondary EU TATL works, so, I'm not sure why you seem to revel in singling Manchester out (in that viewing your post history, you don't seem to have gone on any other airports thread to crap all over their success stories).

You say summer seasonal indicates weak demand. Ok, so, with the Thomas Cook averaging 90% loads across its US network this summer, what exactly was it that filled those aircraft? Oh that's right, demand.

Just because winter is slightly weaker, does not automatically write off a destination as weak demand. As we are talking about Summer, this is the period that MAN is strongest so, the increase comments are completely valid. The fact is, UA has cut back in the same period of large growth.

Let's not forget your beloved Dublin used to suffer this issue too, many of its US carrier traffic was seasonal, but look at DUB now, it's got a lot better. Who is to say that isn't where Manchester is currently?

The US govt also selected MAN for USPC in the near future as a point that sees high passenger flows, better go and tell them it's a waste of money, no demand, no one will be using it!

You seem very quick to write Manchester off, and almost lambast the fact it has aspirations, but every airport has to start somewhere to grow, and this seems to be the bit you don't comprehend. I notice you never replied to my comment about your last rant, so, not expecting a reply to this one either.


Your last response (along with the vast majority of your posts on the MAN forum) are based on hearsay masquerading as fact, therefore not warranting a valid response due to your rose-tinted spectacles. Any time there is mention of new routes being discussed you automatically assert that your beloved MAN should be served!!! All these routes & services that you constantly talk about in the MAN thread are never substantiated with any fact or sources! When there's constant hearsay and zero fact, it's pretty easy to conclude that
There's a big difference between having aspirations and spouting about new routes with no sources or evidence.
Need I regurgitate your list from before?
 
Luftymatt
Posts: 544
Joined: Sun Jan 25, 2009 7:27 pm

Re: United drops IAD-Manchester UK

Wed Dec 07, 2016 10:45 pm

sevenair wrote:
Factors do no include Brexit. Excuses included Brexit.

The United Kingdom is still a fully paid up member of the EU and shall continue to be so for quite some time.

:checkmark: Completely agree, are people going to blame Brexit for UA pulling other European destinations too?

UA seem so scared to add capacity at MAN and I can't figure out why, I used to dispatch their flights and a 757 on MAN - EWR is woefully inadequate equipment for this route. Frequently we were overbooked in business and economy, plus we were maxed out with cargo bookings, not to mention the very lucrative contract they have with Royal Mail. This route is crying out for an equipment upgrade, at least on a 763 or a 764.

As for IAD whilst it wasn't the best performing TATL route out of MAN, it by no means did badly either. Peak season and holidays it was again overbooked in both classes, maybe a little less on the cargo front but it made up for it with mail.

I'd agree with people saying they should try ORD, or at least do double daily to EWR again. Just vary the times! Have the morning flight and then an afternoon one.
chase the sun
 
gilesdavies
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Re: United drops IAD-Manchester UK

Wed Dec 07, 2016 10:46 pm

With United now cutting back at Manchester and Delta (handing the reign over to partner VS) no longer serving the airport with its own metal come next summer, could we possibly see a cut back of American metal...

I notice the PHL route remains strong, continuing to be served by the A330's all year round, while Chicago and New York are seasonal.

Is PHL being treated as AA's main hub of choice for connections onward in the USA from Manchester? Especially as they are operating the larger aircraft on this route and remains year round.

No disrepect to Manchester, but it has commonly known it has lower yields than other major European cities on routes to the USA and like other UK regional airports, if the routes don't work they quickly get dropped by the US carriers... With the added capacity coming from Thomas Cook and Virgin Atlantic to more major cities in the US with no additional connections being required, could this be a sign of US shrinking back and only flying to one of their major hubs or even leaving the airport all together?
 
User001
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Re: United drops IAD-Manchester UK

Wed Dec 07, 2016 10:51 pm

Wow,

I'm debating whether to waste a response on that pile of bull, but, here's some bullet points:

-You claim my post about the USA increases (my last response) is hearsay and not fact. So, please tell me then, why can I book said flights if they are not fact?

-there are threads where I have give an opinion about why a route could be served, and they are backed up with facts. Please point out these such obvious errors

-I refer you back to your rant on the Korean Air Barcelona thread, where you pointed out several of the routes talked about were just hearsay. Care to regurtitate that nonesense? For example, you claimed Oman Air was not true, but, what can be booked on the Oman Air website.... Oh yes, my pure hearsay and masquerading fact (or zero fact as you put it). Go on, check that post again and come back and tell me you speak nothing but clear concise fact too. Go on.

I think you need to take a chill pill and re evaluate your posts, as it seems you have a completely unjustified bee in your bonnet and it has the potential to make you look even sillier than you currently do.

Feel Free to reply to me via the private message if you must, as I won't reply here now as its not fair to derail the thread purely because you have an unjustified issue with me, or MAN or whatever the hell it is that's going on here,
Last edited by User001 on Wed Dec 07, 2016 11:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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piedmont762
Posts: 456
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Re: United drops IAD-Manchester UK

Wed Dec 07, 2016 10:51 pm

codc10 wrote:
LuxuryLiner767 wrote:
skipness1E wrote:
EWR-MAN used to be DC10-30 then B777-200ER. Changed days.


Absolutely was and definitely remember this growing up in NJ in the 1990s-early 2000s. This route can easily handle a 763, I think at least. Same with DUB.

"Wow, UA TATL routes are dropping like flies."

Factors include Brexit, gradually weaker demand for TATL over a growing period of time, EU currency issues etc. Also I always was in the camp of skepticism that UA/CO kept many of it's TATL network in tact for network purposes only and quite a few routes barely made money or broke even. You've seen this already with UA making EWR-ARN seasonal and the duds of EWR-IST/DUS/BFS/CPH etc.

EDIT: Just saw the thread on EWR-OSL dropping as well. Not surprising in the least.


EWR-DUS was dropped by CO post-9/11 and did not return on Continental. It is currently served with Lufthansa A340-600 metal and for all intents and purposes, is a United flight as well. EWR-CGN went away around the time of the implementation of the JV due to its proximity to DUS and said EWR service. STR was cut after the market did not perform well, with MBUSA leaving Montvale,NJ and a frequent winter diversion on a 757. Plus its proximity to MUC and ease of FRA train connections to downtown Stuttgart militated against the service.


I can't remember if/when CGN was dropped ahead or behind DUS. One or both were dropped definitely when I was in college, circa 2005-2007.
 
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piedmont762
Posts: 456
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Re: United drops IAD-Manchester UK

Wed Dec 07, 2016 11:00 pm

Luftymatt wrote:
sevenair wrote:
Factors do no include Brexit. Excuses included Brexit.

The United Kingdom is still a fully paid up member of the EU and shall continue to be so for quite some time.

:checkmark: Completely agree, are people going to blame Brexit for UA pulling other European destinations too?

UA seem so scared to add capacity at MAN and I can't figure out why, I used to dispatch their flights and a 757 on MAN - EWR is woefully inadequate equipment for this route. Frequently we were overbooked in business and economy, plus we were maxed out with cargo bookings, not to mention the very lucrative contract they have with Royal Mail. This route is crying out for an equipment upgrade, at least on a 763 or a 764.

As for IAD whilst it wasn't the best performing TATL route out of MAN, it by no means did badly either. Peak season and holidays it was again overbooked in both classes, maybe a little less on the cargo front but it made up for it with mail.

I'd agree with people saying they should try ORD, or at least do double daily to EWR again. Just vary the times! Have the morning flight and then an afternoon one.


UA's EWR TATL strategy might as well be considered as "dated" hence why the eroding of routes to seasonal or entirely continues. The 757s are getting older, reliability has been slipping, and the interiors have not been redone for at least 6+ years.

All of that combined with UA's post merger tarnished reputation, EWR constant unreliability, Europe's economy changing, as well as their JV with LH doesn't help their presence in the British Isles (hence why UA is still BIG in Germany). The DL/VS and BA/AA alliances seem to crush UA, only being stand alone from their hubs in England.

It's almost like if the price point is competitive with DL or a Euro partner that is cheaper with better service, why even bother flying a UA 757 across the pond? Even basic Y service on a DL 763 on EWR-AMS is going to be likely a better experience than flying a UA 757 in the same class of service.
 
DobboDobbo
Posts: 1141
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Re: United drops IAD-Manchester UK

Wed Dec 07, 2016 11:05 pm

I do wonder if UA might be better seeking partnerships at MAN in the same manner as AA and DL have on the U.S. side, and TCX and VS have in the UK side.

If they rationalise the MAN network to EWR only, it makes sense for them to get it right and upgrade the equipment as sticking with the B752 can only lead to failure.
 
FlyHossD
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Re: United drops IAD-Manchester UK

Wed Dec 07, 2016 11:34 pm

redrooster3 wrote:
Thats two 752s freed up from TATL service....wonder where they're going...


Seems like I've heard that UA is accelerating parking the P&W powered 752s. So maybe these planes are part of the replacement for those birds...?
My statements do not represent my former employer or my current employer and are my opinions only.
 
Luftymatt
Posts: 544
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Re: United drops IAD-Manchester UK

Wed Dec 07, 2016 11:44 pm

gilesdavies wrote:
No disrepect to Manchester, but it has commonly known it has lower yields than other major European cities on routes to the USA and like other UK regional airports, if the routes don't work they quickly get dropped by the US carriers...

UA launched MAN - IAD back in 2010, they've hardly been 'quick' in dropping it. The route obviously wasn't doing badly, otherwise it wouldn't have been kept for over six years.
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Danfearn77
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Re: United drops IAD-Manchester UK

Wed Dec 07, 2016 11:55 pm

Boeing74741R thanks for noticing my error! What I meant to say was the UA 75's are battered. MT already have a better product and VS will have a far far superior product this coming summer. I meant to say superior, not inferior!
Last edited by Danfearn77 on Wed Dec 07, 2016 11:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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CONTACREW
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Re: United drops IAD-Manchester UK

Wed Dec 07, 2016 11:58 pm

LuxuryLiner767 wrote:
codc10 wrote:
LuxuryLiner767 wrote:

Absolutely was and definitely remember this growing up in NJ in the 1990s-early 2000s. This route can easily handle a 763, I think at least. Same with DUB.

"Wow, UA TATL routes are dropping like flies."

Factors include Brexit, gradually weaker demand for TATL over a growing period of time, EU currency issues etc. Also I always was in the camp of skepticism that UA/CO kept many of it's TATL network in tact for network purposes only and quite a few routes barely made money or broke even. You've seen this already with UA making EWR-ARN seasonal and the duds of EWR-IST/DUS/BFS/CPH etc.

EDIT: Just saw the thread on EWR-OSL dropping as well. Not surprising in the least.


EWR-DUS was dropped by CO post-9/11 and did not return on Continental. It is currently served with Lufthansa A340-600 metal and for all intents and purposes, is a United flight as well. EWR-CGN went away around the time of the implementation of the JV due to its proximity to DUS and said EWR service. STR was cut after the market did not perform well, with MBUSA leaving Montvale,NJ and a frequent winter diversion on a 757. Plus its proximity to MUC and ease of FRA train connections to downtown Stuttgart militated against the service.


I can't remember if/when CGN was dropped ahead or behind DUS. One or both were dropped definitely when I was in college, circa 2005-2007.


CGN was dropped September 2008 DUS was dropped shortly after 9/11.
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BestWestern
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Re: United drops IAD-Manchester UK

Thu Dec 08, 2016 12:03 am

I suppose this route was profitable also. :-)

The drop in sterling and rise of the US dollar will affect UK outbound traffic in 2017, especially for stronger outbound markets, such as Manchester.
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MIflyer12
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Re: United drops IAD-Manchester UK

Thu Dec 08, 2016 2:00 am

sk736 wrote:
What rubbish! We're well over two years away (at least) from Brexit and nobody yet fully understands the impact. To suggest UA dropped a route because of Brexit is ill-informed tosh.

sevenair wrote:
Factors do no include Brexit. Excuses included Brexit.

The United Kingdom is still a fully paid up member of the EU and shall continue to be so for quite some time.


Boeing74741R wrote:
Again, Brexit is just a convenient excuse when the formal process to leave the EU hasn't yet started (and may well never happen).


Exit negotiations haven't started but the GBP dropped precipitously. That makes the U.S. a more costly destination for UK-currency travelers, and reduces receipts in USD for U.S. carriers selling tickets in GBP.

http://www.xe.com/currencycharts/?from= ... SD&view=1Y

Image
 
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VS4ever
Posts: 2576
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Re: United drops IAD-Manchester UK

Thu Dec 08, 2016 3:05 am

well just for giggles, figured i'd try and see how many butts on seats on this route. Thankfully our friends at the CAA in the UK make that nice and easy. (my source for this)

Not sure what UA was doing in 2010 or 2011, because there are virtually no pax on the route recorded. proper figures show up in 2012 and beyond as follows, so I started from there:

2012: 57,094
2013: 78,993
2014: 76,486
2015 to September: 48,881
2015 full year: 64,432
2016 to September (last published figures): 41,358

So based on those numbers YTD September the route was 15.4% down 16 over 15.
Full year 15 over 14 was also 15.8% down

Outside of Brexit and other factors, the numbers tell the story, 15% down 2 years in succession a recipe for success IAD-MAN is not without yields being through the roof, which from previous posters they are most likely not and hardly surprising that UA pulled the route if that trend is set to continue. Very sad really.
That feeling when you sit at the end of a runway, brakes are released and the raw power takes over. Now that is a thing of beauty and it never gets old.
 
airzona11
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Re: United drops IAD-Manchester UK

Thu Dec 08, 2016 3:13 am

MIflyer12 wrote:
Exit negotiations haven't started but the GBP dropped precipitously. That makes the U.S. a more costly destination for UK-currency travelers, and reduces receipts in USD for U.S. carriers selling tickets in GBP.

http://www.xe.com/currencycharts/?from= ... SD&view=1Y

Image


However, as others noted, there has been a HUGE increase in flying between MAN and the USA. The UK is now less expensive for US based travelers, that should increase traffic. With only 16 Business Seats, it is not like this was a huge business route, so the change would be on the margins for United. More people are flying to MAN, just not with UA.

UA has limited resources and in all likely hood, is redeploying this aircraft where it can return a higher return. It very well can be (easy to believe) earning money, just not enough vs other options.
 
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piedmont762
Posts: 456
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Re: United drops IAD-Manchester UK

Thu Dec 08, 2016 3:27 am

airzona11 wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
Exit negotiations haven't started but the GBP dropped precipitously. That makes the U.S. a more costly destination for UK-currency travelers, and reduces receipts in USD for U.S. carriers selling tickets in GBP.

http://www.xe.com/currencycharts/?from= ... SD&view=1Y

Image


However, as others noted, there has been a HUGE increase in flying between MAN and the USA. The UK is now less expensive for US based travelers, that should increase traffic. With only 16 Business Seats, it is not like this was a huge business route, so the change would be on the margins for United. More people are flying to MAN, just not with UA.

UA has limited resources and in all likely hood, is redeploying this aircraft where it can return a higher return. It very well can be (easy to believe) earning money, just not enough vs other options.


They should start with adding those 757s on transcons and to Hawaii: BOS/DCA/ATL/ORD-SFO etc.
 
klwright69
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Re: United drops IAD-Manchester UK

Thu Dec 08, 2016 6:01 am

Wow. There is just so much here. EWR-DUS? That hasn't even been around for 15 years, maybe getting closer to 20 years now. I am truly shocked anyone is going back that far to say it's relevant to anything today. The UK is still in the EU, and has not even formally started the process of leaving the EU. But some of you insist on using it as a factor no matter what. Saying it doesn't make it true. There was only a referendum.

I transferred at IAD not long ago, it's not the greatest but it's not 3rd world either. I know this will shock some of you, but it was quite pleasant.

UA uses the 757 on domestic routes, they also use them on some other international routes, like IAH-BOG has seen the 757 recently. It's not a stretch to think that planes can sometimes be used more profitably elsewhere as a pure business decision.. Maybe it's this only... not Brexit, not the UA terminal in IAD, UA's not falling apart in the Transatlantic, not any of this.
 
sevenair
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Re: United drops IAD-Manchester UK

Thu Dec 08, 2016 6:20 am

MIflyer12 wrote:
sk736 wrote:
What rubbish! We're well over two years away (at least) from Brexit and nobody yet fully understands the impact. To suggest UA dropped a route because of Brexit is ill-informed tosh.

sevenair wrote:
Factors do no include Brexit. Excuses included Brexit.

The United Kingdom is still a fully paid up member of the EU and shall continue to be so for quite some time.


Boeing74741R wrote:
Again, Brexit is just a convenient excuse when the formal process to leave the EU hasn't yet started (and may well never happen).


Exit negotiations haven't started but the GBP dropped precipitously. That makes the U.S. a more costly destination for UK-currency travelers, and reduces receipts in USD for U.S. carriers selling tickets in GBP.

http://www.xe.com/currencycharts/?from= ... SD&view=1Y

Image


Capacity with other airlines (mainly English airlines flying Brits to the states - the Ines for who America is much expensive) is growing. United is retreating. Nothing to do with Brexit whatsoever. The UK is now a lot cheaper for Americans too - it works both ways.

Brexit is a convenient excuse to save face and in the UK it is rolled out at every chance to protect executive bonuses.
 
DobboDobbo
Posts: 1141
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Re: United drops IAD-Manchester UK

Thu Dec 08, 2016 8:32 am

For MAN-IAD you've also got to look at indirect options like Icelandair or Wow.

Routing via Iceland add a couple of hours to the journey, but roughly halves the price when compared to UAs direct option.
 
Luftymatt
Posts: 544
Joined: Sun Jan 25, 2009 7:27 pm

Re: United drops IAD-Manchester UK

Thu Dec 08, 2016 1:43 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:

Exit negotiations haven't started but the GBP dropped precipitously. That makes the U.S. a more costly destination for UK-currency travelers, and reduces receipts in USD for U.S. carriers selling tickets in GBP.


Brilliant, now roll out the graph/ stats for other destinations in other countries UA has dropped: CGN/ DUS etc. Last time I checked they were still very much in the EU and they don't have any intention to leave. As people have said Brexit is a convenient excuse, that gets rolled out at every opportunity.
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czek6
Posts: 182
Joined: Thu Sep 05, 2013 2:20 pm

Re: United drops IAD-Manchester UK

Thu Dec 08, 2016 2:58 pm

Wow Air does not have Manchester listed as a destination on their website, but I can see them operating it in the future.

I can also see Thomas Cook trying out MAN-BWI to supplement their (Condor) FRA-BWI service.

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