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KarelXWB
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DL announces first A350 base

Thu Dec 08, 2016 8:09 pm

Delta's first A350s will be placed at DTW:

"[Detroit is] where we’re going to put the brand new A350 aircraft.. Those will go into Asia," says Delta's Christine Kennedy. #airports


https://twitter.com/e_russell/status/806953020063891456
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PlanesNTrains
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Re: DL announces first A350 base

Thu Dec 08, 2016 8:10 pm

KarelXWB wrote:
Delta's first A350s will be placed at DTW:

"[Detroit is] where we’re going to put the brand new A350 aircraft.. Those will go into Asia," says Delta's Christine Kennedy. #airports


https://twitter.com/e_russell/status/806953020063891456


Makes complete sense. Looking forward to seeing them in SEA though.
-Dave


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jbs2886
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Re: DL announces first A350 base

Thu Dec 08, 2016 8:14 pm

Cue certain posters denying this will ever happen. Delta is obviously lying and they will go to ATL.

No real surprise though, they will go after the 747 routes.
 
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KTPAFlyer
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Re: DL announces first A350 base

Thu Dec 08, 2016 8:58 pm

Yeah, this was hardly a surprise, but is interesting coming from someone whose last name is Kennedy :duck:
 
lavalampluva
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Re: DL announces first A350 base

Thu Dec 08, 2016 9:06 pm

jbs2886 wrote:
Cue certain posters denying this will ever happen. Delta is obviously lying and they will go to ATL.

No real surprise though, they will go after the 747 routes.


Most people have been predicting this. The A350 was going to first replace the B747. So DTW makes perfect sense. Maybe this will calm down the DTWFanboys.
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RL777
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Re: DL announces first A350 base

Thu Dec 08, 2016 9:10 pm

I'd imagine it won't be too long before the A359 takes over the HKG route out of SEA.
 
clrd4t8koff
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Re: DL announces first A350 base

Thu Dec 08, 2016 9:13 pm

What's the difference in total capacity for DL's 744 vs A359? Seems like a downgauge and loss, no?
 
PlanesNTrains
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Re: DL announces first A350 base

Thu Dec 08, 2016 9:15 pm

clrd4t8koff wrote:
What's the difference in total capacity for DL's 744 vs A359? Seems like a downgauge and loss, no?


One man's down-gauging is another man's right-sizing. I'd guess this will improve overall yields, and they can send the low-yield stuff over SEA to fill those planes.
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behramjee
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Re: DL announces first A350 base

Thu Dec 08, 2016 9:20 pm

this is a smarter move initially too rather than putting the A350s in SEA/MSP as the flights from DTW to Asia are much longer in stage length hence a greater amount of operational cost savings will be seen on the financial bottom line.

DL has 32 A359s on order seating 306 pax i.e. 32J 48W 226Y.

Question...can the A359 fly DTW-HKG nonstop in both directions with no payload restrictions year round for both pax + cargo?
 
jbs2886
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Re: DL announces first A350 base

Thu Dec 08, 2016 9:23 pm

behramjee wrote:
this is a smarter move initially too rather than putting the A350s in SEA/MSP as the flights from DTW to Asia are much longer in stage length hence a greater amount of operational cost savings will be seen on the financial bottom line.

DL has 32 A359s on order seating 306 pax i.e. 32J 48W 226Y.

Question...can the A359 fly DTW-HKG nonstop in both directions with no payload restrictions year round for both pax + cargo?


32? I thought it was 25?
 
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Re: DL announces first A350 base

Thu Dec 08, 2016 9:28 pm

jbs2886 wrote:
32? I thought it was 25?


Yes, it is 25. Currently. I'd be shocked if they didn't order more though.
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Re: DL announces first A350 base

Thu Dec 08, 2016 9:34 pm

jbs2886 wrote:
Cue certain posters denying this will ever happen. Delta is obviously lying and they will go to ATL.

No real surprise though, they will go after the 747 routes.


Exactly what I was thinking. 3...2...1...
 
MSPNWA
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Re: DL announces first A350 base

Thu Dec 08, 2016 9:52 pm

Not a surprise here. I think we all knew DTW would be first. The better question is what will be second. I believe it will be a little while before a chunk of the fleet expands beyond DTW.
 
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Re: DL announces first A350 base

Thu Dec 08, 2016 10:24 pm

Delta's A350-900 should be Pacific flyers. Detroit makes perfect sense.
 
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Re: DL announces first A350 base

Thu Dec 08, 2016 11:14 pm

jbs2886 wrote:
Cue certain posters denying this will ever happen. Delta is obviously lying and they will go to ATL.
No real surprise though, they will go after the 747 routes.

Yep. And all this time, I thought the sky was falling in DTW... ;)
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787fan8
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Re: DL announces first A350 base

Thu Dec 08, 2016 11:21 pm

jbs2886 wrote:
Cue certain posters denying this will ever happen. Delta is obviously lying and they will go to ATL.

No real surprise though, they will go after the 747 routes.

Where's klm617 when you need him
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Re: DL announces first A350 base

Thu Dec 08, 2016 11:25 pm

The sky is falling at DTW and its the WCAA's fault that DL is retiring the 744.
 
planespotter20
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Re: DL announces first A350 base

Thu Dec 08, 2016 11:27 pm

They'll deploy most a359s on the Asian routes and maybe a few to premium European hubs. But for Europe I'd say it's logical that they'll send the a330neo, but don't they need more orders to fully retire the 767 fleet?

Can someone remind me, how many a359s and a339s did DL order?
 
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Re: DL announces first A350 base

Thu Dec 08, 2016 11:34 pm

planespotter20 wrote:
They'll deploy most a359s on the Asian routes and maybe a few to premium European hubs. But for Europe I'd say it's logical that they'll send the a330neo, but don't they need more orders to fully retire the 767 fleet?

Can someone remind me, how many a359s and a339s did DL order?


Delta Air Lines (NYSE: DAL) has chosen the Airbus A350-900 and A330-900neo to replace older generation Boeing 747 and 767 aircraft starting in 2017 and 2019, respectively.

The order for 25 state-of-the-art Airbus A350-900 aircraft and 25 advanced Airbus A330-900neo aircraft fits within Delta's existing capacity and capital expenditure plan and continues the airline's focus on making prudent, cost-effective investments in its fleet.


http://news.delta.com/delta-adds-a350-9 ... fleet-plan
 
Atlwarrior
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Re: DL announces first A350 base

Thu Dec 08, 2016 11:38 pm

I do expect maybe a couple of months ATL to LAX domestic runs before deploying to Detroit.
 
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Re: DL announces first A350 base

Thu Dec 08, 2016 11:55 pm

Atlwarrior wrote:
I do expect maybe a couple of months ATL to LAX domestic runs before deploying to Detroit.

...and the poster-whose-name-cannot-be-spoken will claim that is a plot by DL and the WCAA that will keep them from ever flying out of DTW...
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compensateme
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Re: DL announces first A350 base

Fri Dec 09, 2016 12:08 am

Atlwarrior wrote:
I do expect maybe a couple of months ATL to LAX domestic runs before deploying to Detroit.


Doubtful. The purpose of those domestic runs is to familiarize flight crew and ground personal with the aircraft. If DL opts to deploy the aircraft in regular domestic service, it'd almost undoubtedly be from DTW; there's not much sense in originating travel from ATL at this point, since it could be a few years before an A350 base is opened there.
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planespotter20
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Re: DL announces first A350 base

Fri Dec 09, 2016 12:09 am

11725Flyer wrote:
planespotter20 wrote:
They'll deploy most a359s on the Asian routes and maybe a few to premium European hubs. But for Europe I'd say it's logical that they'll send the a330neo, but don't they need more orders to fully retire the 767 fleet?

Can someone remind me, how many a359s and a339s did DL order?


Delta Air Lines (NYSE: DAL) has chosen the Airbus A350-900 and A330-900neo to replace older generation Boeing 747 and 767 aircraft starting in 2017 and 2019, respectively.

The order for 25 state-of-the-art Airbus A350-900 aircraft and 25 advanced Airbus A330-900neo aircraft fits within Delta's existing capacity and capital expenditure plan and continues the airline's focus on making prudent, cost-effective investments in its fleet.


http://news.delta.com/delta-adds-a350-9 ... fleet-plan


Thanks. I'm excited to see the a359 in DL's livery
 
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Re: DL announces first A350 base

Fri Dec 09, 2016 12:16 am

compensateme wrote:
Atlwarrior wrote:
I do expect maybe a couple of months ATL to LAX domestic runs before deploying to Detroit.


Doubtful. The purpose of those domestic runs is to familiarize flight crew and ground personal with the aircraft. If DL opts to deploy the aircraft in regular domestic service, it'd almost undoubtedly be from DTW; there's not much sense in originating travel from ATL at this point, since it could be a few years before an A350 base is opened there.


Indeed. Going to need to get DTW ramp and line MX up to speed, and 744 transition crews on the airplanes. I could see DTW-LAX, maybe DTW-SEA to get a head start for when SEA sees them. DTW-AMS may be an early proving run, too.
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Re: DL announces first A350 base

Fri Dec 09, 2016 12:26 am

I would look to see an A359 add-on order before too much longer. Unless they already have reserved some slots on the production line.

Isn't the A359 eventually to be built in Alabama, too?
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Re: DL announces first A350 base

Fri Dec 09, 2016 12:27 am

flyDTW1992 wrote:
compensateme wrote:
Atlwarrior wrote:
I do expect maybe a couple of months ATL to LAX domestic runs before deploying to Detroit.


Doubtful. The purpose of those domestic runs is to familiarize flight crew and ground personal with the aircraft. If DL opts to deploy the aircraft in regular domestic service, it'd almost undoubtedly be from DTW; there's not much sense in originating travel from ATL at this point, since it could be a few years before an A350 base is opened there.


Indeed. Going to need to get DTW ramp and line MX up to speed, and 744 transition crews on the airplanes. I could see DTW-LAX, maybe DTW-SEA to get a head start for when SEA sees them. DTW-AMS may be an early proving run, too.

I was thinking they would use them on shorter runs to have more opportunities for personal familiarization .
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compensateme
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Re: DL announces first A350 base

Fri Dec 09, 2016 12:28 am

flyDTW1992 wrote:
Indeed. Going to need to get DTW ramp and line MX up to speed, and 744 transition crews on the airplanes. I could see DTW-LAX, maybe DTW-SEA to get a head start for when SEA sees them. DTW-AMS may be an early proving run, too.


It would depend on the approach DL took to teeth in the new fleet type: we could either see the 359 operating a few token flights, or we could see it in regular service. In either case, most of these flights would either begin or end at DTW since the purpose is to familiarize flight crew and ground personal with the aircraft. LAX and/or SEA would be the most logical options, since one is likely to become the second A359 base. If DL were to chase volume, SFO and perhaps MCO would have to be considered. But I'd place my bets on LAX or SEA -- Medallions will chase the opportunity to fly in Delta One or Economy Comfort (as they did when DL operated the 77L on regular DTW/LAX service) so filling the aircraft won't be a problem.
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compensateme
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Re: DL announces first A350 base

Fri Dec 09, 2016 12:40 am

lavalampluva wrote:
I was thinking they would use them on shorter runs to have more opportunities for personal familiarization .


That's generally not how it works. You can pretty much bet that the domestic flights will be either DTW- ATL/LAX/SEA.

DTWPurserBoy wrote:
I would look to see an A359 add-on order before too much longer. Unless they already have reserved some slots on the production line.

Isn't the A359 eventually to be built in Alabama, too?


The capacity coming online from the 330 and 350 orders is enough to wipe out most of the 763/ER fleet. With many of the 763/ER still quite young (in Delta years; much of the fleet was built in the late 1990s/early 2000s) and DL investing billions in large orders for the CS100, 739, 321, 330 and 350, I wouldn't expect another large order anytime soon. DL openly discussed waiting for pricing on used widebodies to fall -- it's quite probable that used late-model 777 and 330 will ultimately join the fleet.

DL's in a unique position in that, once the MD88 are phased out, most of its fleet was built within a few years in the late 1990s/early 2000s (and, status quo, nearly as many older frames as new ones). The required capital to rectify this will be daunting. No doubt this is something DL is planning for now; IMO, this pretty much guarantees that second-hand aircraft will join the fleet. People @[email protected]! about the US carriers, but given the size of their fleets, they simply don't have the luxury of turning it over as fast as most of their global peers.
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Re: DL announces first A350 base

Fri Dec 09, 2016 12:42 am

This is good news for DTW, this will maybe be the second attempt to secure a nonstop back to Hong Kong with its range and ability to fly on its payload.
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Re: DL announces first A350 base

Fri Dec 09, 2016 12:52 am

I live in DTW but was hoping to fly on one LAX-SYD in January, 2018 when my wife and I take our cruise.
 
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Re: DL announces first A350 base

Fri Dec 09, 2016 1:09 am

compensateme wrote:
Medallions will chase the opportunity to fly in Delta One or Economy Comfort

Meh, forget Economy Comfort... the A359 will be the first of DL's aircraft to offer Delta Premium (actual Premium Economy) as a distinct class, with Economy Comfort just being regular configuration Y with more legroom. THAT'S what they (who can't get J) will be after.

Premium will offer different food, 2x4x2, Bose headsets, vanity kits, leg-rests, armrests for all, etc
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Re: DL announces first A350 base

Fri Dec 09, 2016 3:33 am

compensateme wrote:
The capacity coming online from the 330 and 350 orders is enough to wipe out most of the 763/ER fleet.


Yes, but the A350s need to replace the 744s, too.

Not all of the 767-300ERs (let's keep the 764s out of this) are so old by DL standards to need to be replaced within the next 4-5 years by the on-order 339 and 350s. (There are ~18 frames delivered 1998 or later.) But to complete the job more widebody orders will be needed.
 
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Re: DL announces first A350 base

Fri Dec 09, 2016 5:58 am

Just remember how DL works. We will see the focus of A350 operations probably move around from time to time. DL works in mysterious ways...
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Re: DL announces first A350 base

Fri Dec 09, 2016 10:32 am

The first 25x A339s are initially slated to replace the 16x oldest remaining B763ERs (171-81 & 150-56). How do we account for the difference? A few different ways. DL is reserving room for network growth at the same time as keeping the option to retire more B763ERs early should fuel prices rally. More likely scenario will see either DL delaying delivery of the final 8x A359s should fuel and growth stay low or also we can (and likely will) see a bunch (8-12?) of B763ERS converted to domestic use.

More importantly, once those 16 oldest ERs are retired (in addition to the 2 Non-ERs slated for retirement next Feb), there will remain 67 B767s in DL's fleet. Thinking this order covers all their retirements is wishful thinking. By the same token, thinking another WB order is imminent is also wishful thinking. The B767s will be at DL for a very long time to come.
 
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compensateme
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Re: DL announces first A350 base

Fri Dec 09, 2016 1:18 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
compensateme wrote:
The capacity coming online from the 330 and 350 orders is enough to wipe out most of the 763/ER fleet.


Yes, but the A350s need to replace the 744s, too.


hkcanadaexpat wrote:
The first 25x A339s are initially slated to replace the 16x oldest remaining B763ERs (171-81 & 150-56). How do we account for the difference? A few different ways. DL is reserving room for network growth at the same time as keeping the option to retire more B763ERs early should fuel prices rally. More likely scenario will see either DL delaying delivery of the final 8x A359s should fuel and growth stay low or also we can (and likely will) see a bunch (8-12?) of B763ERS converted to domestic use.

More importantly, once those 16 oldest ERs are retired (in addition to the 2 Non-ERs slated for retirement next Feb), there will remain 67 B767s in DL's fleet. Thinking this order covers all their retirements is wishful thinking. By the same token, thinking another WB order is imminent is also wishful thinking. The B767s will be at DL for a very long time to come.


Most people don't realize how much capacity is coming into the system. The 330 and 350 orders provide the equivalent capacity to replace the entire 744 and 763/ER fleets and still yield a few aircraft for growth. Obviously a multitude of factors will dictate future long-haul fleet decisions -- opportunity, successful expansion, local & global economies, economics, upgauging/frequency, the need for 767 within the domestic system (congestion at ATL, LAX, SEA, etc. might "force" this), etc. But my point was that DL has a tremendous amount of capacity coming into the system and operates a very large number of 767 that are likely in midlife; additionally, DL has signaled it's evaluating the used aircraft market. Thus, those hoping for another large widebody order in the near future will be disappointed.
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Re: DL announces first A350 base

Fri Dec 09, 2016 1:34 pm

I have not seen MSP mentioned here. How will either the A350 or A330-900neo fit into the MSP market?
 
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Re: DL announces first A350 base

Fri Dec 09, 2016 1:46 pm

SteveXC500 wrote:
I have not seen MSP mentioned here. How will either the A350 or A330-900neo fit into the MSP market?


The only way I see that happening is if DL decides to expand with increased service to Asia.
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Re: DL announces first A350 base

Fri Dec 09, 2016 2:05 pm

Does DL plan to deploy any out of ATL?
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Re: DL announces first A350 base

Fri Dec 09, 2016 2:31 pm

lavalampluva wrote:
flyDTW1992 wrote:
compensateme wrote:

Doubtful. The purpose of those domestic runs is to familiarize flight crew and ground personal with the aircraft. If DL opts to deploy the aircraft in regular domestic service, it'd almost undoubtedly be from DTW; there's not much sense in originating travel from ATL at this point, since it could be a few years before an A350 base is opened there.


Indeed. Going to need to get DTW ramp and line MX up to speed, and 744 transition crews on the airplanes. I could see DTW-LAX, maybe DTW-SEA to get a head start for when SEA sees them. DTW-AMS may be an early proving run, too.

I was thinking they would use them on shorter runs to have more opportunities for personal familiarization .


I could see them being subbed for 757-351s on DTW-MSP, so the flight crew could get cycles more quickly. DTW-ATL would be another possibility; some people are surprised that ATL is only 75 miles further from DTW than MSP.
 
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compensateme
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Re: DL announces first A350 base

Fri Dec 09, 2016 2:31 pm

SteveXC500 wrote:
I have not seen MSP mentioned here. How will either the A350 or A330-900neo fit into the MSP market?


787fan8 wrote:
Does DL plan to deploy any out of ATL?


Because we're discussing the first base for the 350. With a combined 50 350 and 330 on order, they'll gradually make their way throughout the DL network.
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Re: DL announces first A350 base

Fri Dec 09, 2016 3:24 pm

AHHHH It feels so good to be missed hold on while I work up one of my baseless comments. Far be it from me to disappoint you all :-)
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oldannyboy
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Re: DL announces first A350 base

Fri Dec 09, 2016 3:34 pm

I'd kill to see a 350 DL retrojet in one of the classic liveries....
 
tjerome
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Re: DL announces first A350 base

Fri Dec 09, 2016 4:52 pm

oldannyboy wrote:
I'd kill to see a 350 DL retrojet in one of the classic liveries....


That won't be happening.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: DL announces first A350 base

Fri Dec 09, 2016 5:21 pm

compensateme wrote:
Most people don't realize how much capacity is coming into the system. The 330 and 350 orders provide the equivalent capacity to replace the entire 744 and 763/ER fleets and still yield a few aircraft for growth.


Fifty A350/339 may replace 14 744 and 68 767 for seats but they won't generate the same quantity of pilot jobs and blocks hours. The senior pilots that fly those planes will create a crap storm, joined by the many staff who expect to move into higher paying roles, not A321s and 739s. DL would also need a very significant network restructuring, dropping tons of city pairs that won't support a ~290-seat 339 in place of a ~211-seat 767. DL needs to order more widebodies to keep the peace and maintain the network. Look for order within 2-3 years, for delivery in 5-7.
 
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Re: DL announces first A350 base

Fri Dec 09, 2016 5:27 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
compensateme wrote:
Most people don't realize how much capacity is coming into the system. The 330 and 350 orders provide the equivalent capacity to replace the entire 744 and 763/ER fleets and still yield a few aircraft for growth.


Fifty A350/339 may replace 14 744 and 68 767 for seats but they won't generate the same quantity of pilot jobs and blocks hours. The senior pilots that fly those planes will create a crap storm, joined by the many staff who expect to move into higher paying roles, not A321s and 739s. DL would also need a very significant network restructuring, dropping tons of city pairs that won't support a ~290-seat 339 in place of a ~211-seat 767. DL needs to order more widebodies to keep the peace and maintain the network. Look for order within 2-3 years, for delivery in 5-7.


Indeed, it also doesn't account for frequency differences. 50 aircraft can't replace 60+ aircraft when most of them are operating routes that are once daily or less in some cases.

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Re: DL announces first A350 base

Fri Dec 09, 2016 6:24 pm

Just a reminder that no line pilots at Delta have bid or been awarded the A350 yet. The rumor was December, but that has been pushed back to February/March. The rumor is still that DTW will be the first domicile, but network planning seems to be leaving as much time as possible to be flexible with where the first ships will land. So the Kennedy tweet above is correct with present information, but from an operational perspective Delta is leaving as much room as possible to move the fleet around at the last minute.
 
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compensateme
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Re: DL announces first A350 base

Fri Dec 09, 2016 6:48 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
Fifty A350/339 may replace 14 744 and 68 767 for seats but they won't generate the same quantity of pilot jobs and blocks hours. The senior pilots that fly those planes will create a crap storm, joined by the many staff who expect to move into higher paying roles, not A321s and 739s. DL would also need a very significant network restructuring, dropping tons of city pairs that won't support a ~290-seat 339 in place of a ~211-seat 767. DL needs to order more widebodies to keep the peace and maintain the network. Look for order within 2-3 years, for delivery in 5-7.


Here's the major flaw with your argument: DL has 52 330 & 350 on order; going forward, its active schedule has dwindled to 5 active B744 (with additional frames kept for spares). Yes, there will be expansion in the future, but there will also be discounted routes and capacity adjustments -- 2016 will see fewer longhaul ASM across both the Atlantic and Pacific than five years earlier -- and the competitive challenges going forward will be significant (increasing low-cost competition across the Atlantic, more competition from ME3, increasing presence from Chinese carrier that place politics over profits, etc.). Thus, it's probable that the majority of the capacity coming online from the 330 & 350 will go toward fleet renewal, primarily 763. Thus, DL's already chosen an aircraft that's nearly 1/3 larger to replace many of the 763. So yes, we'll continue to see very significant network restructuring, just as we have over the past five years.

So for these reasons and the others we've previously discussed, I doubt we'll see another order in near future (especially since many 763 will be operating for 10-15 more years ... even if it's in domestic service). (And since the fleet renewal process will be gradual, as DL shrinks its long-haul fleets, any lost jobs would be via attrition, so it's not something the pilots could really complain about.)
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compensateme
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Re: DL announces first A350 base

Fri Dec 09, 2016 7:02 pm

TW870 wrote:
Just a reminder that no line pilots at Delta have bid or been awarded the A350 yet. The rumor was December, but that has been pushed back to February/March. The rumor is still that DTW will be the first domicile, but network planning seems to be leaving as much time as possible to be flexible with where the first ships will land. So the Kennedy tweet above is correct with present information, but from an operational perspective Delta is leaving as much room as possible to move the fleet around at the last minute.


Given that the first 350 deliveries are in late spring, is it really surprising that DL hasn't bid it yet?
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jetjack74
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Re: DL announces first A350 base

Fri Dec 09, 2016 8:01 pm

PlanesNTrains wrote:
KarelXWB wrote:
Delta's first A350s will be placed at DTW:

"[Detroit is] where we’re going to put the brand new A350 aircraft.. Those will go into Asia," says Delta's Christine Kennedy. #airports


https://twitter.com/e_russell/status/806953020063891456


Makes complete sense. Looking forward to seeing them in SEA though.


Someday we'll see it. However, theres only 1 or 2 routes(PVG and HKG, if they both survive) that really need it. Most destinations to Asia can be reached with the 330. SEA will be the last hub it goes to.
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klm617
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Re: DL announces first A350 base

Fri Dec 09, 2016 8:31 pm

TW870 wrote:
Just a reminder that no line pilots at Delta have bid or been awarded the A350 yet. The rumor was December, but that has been pushed back to February/March. The rumor is still that DTW will be the first domicile, but network planning seems to be leaving as much time as possible to be flexible with where the first ships will land. So the Kennedy tweet above is correct with present information, but from an operational perspective Delta is leaving as much room as possible to move the fleet around at the last minute.



There you go. Until things are formally put into action then I will believe it. Delta has a very good propaganda machine so what Delta puts out there is not always true as we have seen before. Also remember this is also a capacity reduction for the DTW hub. I have heard nothing of expansion plans so while yes this is a new aircraft it will further shrink the market at DTW in favor of other hubs. Would like to hear an announcement of the routes they are going to add at their one time premiere Asian hub with this new fuel efficient aircraft/ Time will tell but knowing Delta I'm skeptical as said Delta may move the fleet around at the last minute from someone in the know.
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