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Ezra
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FA not seated for landing?

Tue Dec 13, 2016 7:29 pm

I was on a B6 flight from JFK to MCO last week. It was the last flight of the evening and the entire trip was a bit of a cluster, starting with the fact that the flight was held well past the departure time so that a family group of 21 passengers who arrived late at the airport could make their way through security and onto the plane. (They were talking loudly about it when they finally boarded, which is how I knew that they were O/D passengers and weren't late to the plane because of a delayed inbound flight.) The entire group was seated in seven rows of three seats, directly across the aisle from me. One of the FAs seemed chummy with this group and he spent much of the flight standing in the aisle talking with them. He must have been enjoying himself quite a lot, because he missed the signal to sit down for landing and was still standing and talking when the plane touched down on the runway in Orlando -- of course he wasn't prepared for the impact, and he went sprawling and fell against me. I got a "sorry about that" from the FA, but that was it. I know that it must be against standard procedure for an FA to be standing in the aisle during landing, but my question is how serious an infraction is this? I'm still kind of steamed about the situation -- the FA was a tall, built guy and could have done a lot more damage to me and others in the vicinity had he fallen even slightly differently, not to mention the concerns for his own safety. Thanks for any insight this board can provide!
 
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mikegigs
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Re: FA not seated for landing?

Tue Dec 13, 2016 7:50 pm

I'm sure there are strict rules against this. If not for his own safety, clearly he could have hurt passengers (at least you were ok!) and it sets a bad example. I've never seen this on a flight but i was on a DL flight from STT once when the FA was handing out headphones the aircraft began it's takeoff roll. She made it back to the rear jumpseat pretty quick and was seated before we reached V1 but still i wonder how common this is.
The only other time I've heard of FAs being up during a landing is when they be performing first aid or CPR on a passenger in a medcal diversion.
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swafa
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Re: FA not seated for landing?

Tue Dec 13, 2016 7:56 pm

It's certainly an FAR violation. Two points I'd like to make about this.
First, he should absolutely have been seated and buckled in, but if the FA was unaware that his actions would lead to violation of an FAR (that is,if he didn't do it on purpose) he can use the ASAP program to self report and avoid discipline. This also helps the industry better understand why it happened and implement protocols designed to prevent it from happening again.

Second, you're absolutely justified in feeling "steamed". How you felt when he bumped into you is how many FA's feel when there is moderate or greater turbulence, we're buckled into our jumpseats and someone decides that's when they have to go to the bathroom. A person falling onto another person can do significant harm.
 
Flighty
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Re: FA not seated for landing?

Tue Dec 13, 2016 8:01 pm

I mean don't FAs have a license to walk around an airplane in turbulence or whatever, kind of like James Bond has a license to kill...
 
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evanbu
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Re: FA not seated for landing?

Tue Dec 13, 2016 8:14 pm

Or you could just simply chalk it up as an honest mistake and not narc the flight attendant out...
 
alasizon
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Re: FA not seated for landing?

Tue Dec 13, 2016 8:28 pm

I had a flight attendant a few months ago on an LAX-PHX flight that was dealing with some passengers that didn't want to comply with rules and were starting to get rowdy again (after also having issues on departure from LAX) and was still talking to them at about 800-900 feet AGL. From knowing the approach multiple times, I actually had to turn around and let her politely know she probably wanted to be seated. She had no sooner gotten herself back in her seat (after some more heckling from one of the troublemakers) before we had a not-so-pleasant landing.
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Stitch
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Re: FA not seated for landing?

Tue Dec 13, 2016 8:46 pm

I had it happen on a UA flight where one of the cabin crew was not seated when we touched down. They were doing a final run through the cabin and I am guessing the landing was quicker than they expected.
 
ZKCIF
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Re: FA not seated for landing?

Tue Dec 13, 2016 9:13 pm

In 2009 I flew on Avianca from Caracas to Bogota. They had an unruly passenger before departure and wanted to persuade him to be nice. As a result, they ended up serving champagne to business class passengers when their 767 was doing 150km/h on the runway. looked entertaining. yet this does not beat my experience when Lufthansa crew demonstrated safety procedures at FL200 as they forgot to do that before departure...
 
bastew
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Re: FA not seated for landing?

Tue Dec 13, 2016 10:00 pm

The biggest safety issue is that he wouldn't have been covering his door during landing.

Saying that, i've been in the lavatory of a 767 for landing before. It happens...
 
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XLA2008
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Re: FA not seated for landing?

Tue Dec 13, 2016 11:52 pm

He wouldn't have been covering his door, if an emergency had of happened he would have been incapacitated which would hinder an evacuation, he could have caused serious injury to other passengers and himself, although at that point injuring other passengers is more an issue than injuring himself! It was a foolish move, the other crew onboard should have told him to be seated, and if he continued to ignore I would have written him up, that's a serious infraction, he was ignoring standard operating procedures and safety procedures which makes you wonder how many other safety and security procedures he over looks, does he do security checks, does he bother to check his equipment? It's not just the act of not taking his seat it's the bigger picture of his blatant disregard for the safety and security of the aircraft! I would write in and complain to JetBlue about it, given the flight number and route they will be able to find out who was scheduled to operate on that flight and given enough information about the crew member they will track him down! Never under estimate the power of complaints, at my airline if a flight has a complaint we know about it, and if it's a personal complaint against one of us, you can be sure we will end up in the office about it!
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Rookie87
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Re: FA not seated for landing?

Wed Dec 14, 2016 12:19 am

XLA2008 wrote:
He wouldn't have been covering his door, if an emergency had of happened he would have been incapacitated which would hinder an evacuation, he could have caused serious injury to other passengers and himself, although at that point injuring other passengers is more an issue than injuring himself! It was a foolish move, the other crew onboard should have told him to be seated, and if he continued to ignore I would have written him up, that's a serious infraction, he was ignoring standard operating procedures and safety procedures which makes you wonder how many other safety and security procedures he over looks, does he do security checks, does he bother to check his equipment? It's not just the act of not taking his seat it's the bigger picture of his blatant disregard for the safety and security of the aircraft! I would write in and complain to JetBlue about it, given the flight number and route they will be able to find out who was scheduled to operate on that flight and given enough information about the crew member they will track him down! Never under estimate the power of complaints, at my airline if a flight has a complaint we know about it, and if it's a personal complaint against one of us, you can be sure we will end up in the office about it!



Well wow. Just "wow." You must be such a pleasure to work with.

Yes he should have been in his jumpseat but "maybe," just "maybe," he didn't hear the chime.
I've seen flight attendants scramble to their jumpseats while the aircraft flared on top of the runway. One incident the pilot did not say prepare for landing (you couldn't even see outside and I noticed them doing final checks while trying to check out the window). The other was in the middle of the night, similar incident, FA dealing with a passenger who had issues and boy did he run when he saw the runway lights and amazingly made it to his jumpseat.

IF the OP was so "steamed" or even the least bit concerned, why didnt he say ANYTHING to warn the FA? Youre SO quick to worry about yourself, that FA could have gotten seriously hurt depending on the landing.
But you're "steamed" that he fell on you..."he's a big guy"...at that point I stopped taking your post seriously.
Flight attendants are people and people don't notice things sometimes. We as people should be looking out for one another. Seems like you were more annoyed he was chummy with them instead of you and that you were delayed "well past" departure time and didn't leave them behind like so many other people get left behind usually
 
robsaw
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Re: FA not seated for landing?

Wed Dec 14, 2016 1:24 am

Stitch wrote:
I had it happen on a UA flight where one of the cabin crew was not seated when we touched down. They were doing a final run through the cabin and I am guessing the landing was quicker than they expected.


Sometimes I think the cabin crew tries to see how long they can delay the final cabin prep for landing and still get it done before they are supposed to be seated (or before wheels on ground).
 
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XLA2008
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Re: FA not seated for landing?

Wed Dec 14, 2016 1:50 am

Rookie87 wrote:
XLA2008 wrote:
He wouldn't have been covering his door, if an emergency had of happened he would have been incapacitated which would hinder an evacuation, he could have caused serious injury to other passengers and himself, although at that point injuring other passengers is more an issue than injuring himself! It was a foolish move, the other crew onboard should have told him to be seated, and if he continued to ignore I would have written him up, that's a serious infraction, he was ignoring standard operating procedures and safety procedures which makes you wonder how many other safety and security procedures he over looks, does he do security checks, does he bother to check his equipment? It's not just the act of not taking his seat it's the bigger picture of his blatant disregard for the safety and security of the aircraft! I would write in and complain to JetBlue about it, given the flight number and route they will be able to find out who was scheduled to operate on that flight and given enough information about the crew member they will track him down! Never under estimate the power of complaints, at my airline if a flight has a complaint we know about it, and if it's a personal complaint against one of us, you can be sure we will end up in the office about it!



Well wow. Just "wow." You must be such a pleasure to work with.

Yes he should have been in his jumpseat but "maybe," just "maybe," he didn't hear the chime.
I've seen flight attendants scramble to their jumpseats while the aircraft flared on top of the runway. One incident the pilot did not say prepare for landing (you couldn't even see outside and I noticed them doing final checks while trying to check out the window). The other was in the middle of the night, similar incident, FA dealing with a passenger who had issues and boy did he run when he saw the runway lights and amazingly made it to his jumpseat.

IF the OP was so "steamed" or even the least bit concerned, why didnt he say ANYTHING to warn the FA? Youre SO quick to worry about yourself, that FA could have gotten seriously hurt depending on the landing.
But you're "steamed" that he fell on you..."he's a big guy"...at that point I stopped taking your post seriously.
Flight attendants are people and people don't notice things sometimes. We as people should be looking out for one another. Seems like you were more annoyed he was chummy with them instead of you and that you were delayed "well past" departure time and didn't leave them behind like so many other people get left behind usually


I am pretty fun to fly with as it goes, however no excuse for still standing during landing, 11 years of flying, 1000's of flights, I've never ever had a crew member standing during landing or missed a chime, given that all of your colleagues are in their jump seats is a bit of a giveaway that you shouldn't still be standing! Not to mention if you fly often enough you know the feeling and sound of the landing gear dropping which is clear indication your on finals and should be seated, their is NO excuse, and if the FA had been seriously injured it is by no fault than his own! And I'm damn right in what I said, he is complacent, ignorant to safety procedures and ignorant to his surroundings because he was to busy chatting away to whoever was onboard! FA's are employed for a reason and that's safety, so don't give me all your rubbish excuses for how he might have "missed" his command to be seated, he should know better and have common sense, otherwise don't work onboard an aircraft, stupid response from you! I mean if it had been a pilot that had missed his command then god knows how many people would be dead, no excuse in the world for complacency when it comes to safety onboard!

As for the airline I fly for, we have a great time, great trips and good laughs when flying together, we are renowned for our customer service and our safety record, but we know our job, we know what we are doing and we don't risk safety for a chat!! The only time you have an excuse to be out of your jump seat for landing is if your dealing with a medical emergency and even then most airlines will tell you to stop and take your jump seat and continue after you are on the ground! If you think he has an excuse then you don't know the role of an FA and have no respect for safety! And your response to they guy that posted this... clearly you shouldn't be in customer service, so let's hope you aren't lol!
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swafa
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Re: FA not seated for landing?

Wed Dec 14, 2016 2:11 am

I've been 20 years an FA at WN...I've done it twice. Not intentionally. Admittedly, both incidents were when I was newer. It happens.
 
cwa2toa
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Re: FA not seated for landing?

Wed Dec 14, 2016 2:15 am

I was flying home ORD-LAX way back in the day, and the young girl across the aisle from us was violently ill. The FA sat in the aisle holding the child's head so she could hit the vomit bag until we landed. I think she was a UM and someone had to take care of her. Luckily that flight terminated in LAX so she could get her uniform cleaned.
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LAX772LR
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Re: FA not seated for landing?

Wed Dec 14, 2016 2:30 am

Never observed it on landing, but in Nov 2015 on MIA-LAX, we had an FA who (must've been preoccupied with something, because he) did a mad dash down the aisle as we were well into the takeoff roll, and got to his seat just at the point of rotation. No way he could've strapped himself in before liftoff.

Apparently all was well, as he was up-and-at-'em again just a few minutes later, as if nothing had happened.

I sorta find that surprising, as I thought the flight crew asked if all FAs were seated before beginning the roll?
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questions
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Re: FA not seated for landing?

Wed Dec 14, 2016 4:12 am

Report him.

How many times have you heard, "You're safety is our number one concern" or "Our flight attendants are on board primarily for your safety."

Safety IS the flight attendant's job. Not gabbing with passengers to the point the FA is not paying attention to flight status and cabin crew signals and messages from the cockpit. What else did this FA not do? What if there had been an accident and he was incapacitated in the cabin? How many times have his peers had to cover for him?

Would you want to be on his flight again?

He was unprofessional. He doesn't take his job seriously. He doesn't value the well being of his passengers.

He was obviously goofing off and not paying attention.

Report him.
 
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longhauler
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Re: FA not seated for landing?

Wed Dec 14, 2016 4:48 am

I am curious what the other Flight Attendants were doing.

No one else noticed he wasn't in position for landing?
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XLA2008
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Re: FA not seated for landing?

Wed Dec 14, 2016 4:55 am

questions wrote:
Report him.

How many times have you heard, "You're safety is our number one concern" or "Our flight attendants are on board primarily for your safety."

Safety IS the flight attendant's job. Not gabbing with passengers to the point the FA is not paying attention to flight status and cabin crew signals and messages from the cockpit. What else did this FA not do? What if there had been an accident and he was incapacitated in the cabin? How many times have his peers had to cover for him?

Would you want to be on his flight again?

He was unprofessional. He doesn't take his job seriously. He doesn't value the well being of his passengers.

He was obviously goofing off and not paying attention.

Report him.


100% agree! It's not just the act of standing during landing it's the clear complacency and disregard for safety procedures, we are trained to be aware that you might not always get an indication to take your seats, especially if the flight crew are overworked, however being crew you know when your on finals, the landing gear, movement of the aircraft, sound of the engines and the fact all your fellow crew are seated, I can't speak for every airline however every airline I have ever worked for we start preparing the cabin at top of descent, which is when that seatbelt sign goes on, then we get a chime around 10,000ft and we do a final cabin check before taking our seats, if we have no chime we will do our checks when we feel it is time for final walk through, you should know from the flight deck what time your due to be on the ground and can work with a rough guess on how long you have to do final checks, however if you hear or feel the landing gear drop, you sit straight down! He's actions do bring into question what else he doesn't pay attention to, I mean taking your jump seat is just one of 1000 things you need to do before, during and after flight, I'm not saying he should loose his job but perhaps a complaint which should lead to a warning will give him the kick to pay attention in future, or even being brought back in for training, that's how we do it! If you continue to ignore safety regulations then... it's bye bye.
Last edited by XLA2008 on Wed Dec 14, 2016 5:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
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SAAFNAV
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Re: FA not seated for landing?

Wed Dec 14, 2016 5:04 am

mikegigs wrote:
She made it back to the rear jumpseat pretty quick and was seated before we reached V1 but still i wonder how common this is.


Would you mind telling us how you know what V1 for this take off was, and how you knew from the back when you reached it?
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tjerome
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Re: FA not seated for landing?

Wed Dec 14, 2016 5:07 am

Rookie87 wrote:
XLA2008 wrote:
IF the OP was so "steamed" or even the least bit concerned, why didnt he say ANYTHING to warn the FA? Youre SO quick to worry about yourself, that FA could have gotten seriously hurt depending on the landing.


Keep in mind the OP was:
-In an aisle seat, not next to the window
-Was the "last flight of the evening" - meaning it is harder (IMO) to judge how high off the ground you are until you're real close to landing, and that is if you're at the window seat
-It's possible the window shades were closed
-OP very well could have not been looking out the window/seeing how close they were to landing

And most importantly, it shouldn't be the customer's responsibility for the safety of the employee, especially when said employee goes through rigorous training for their job. Not saying that you can't or shouldn't say something in that situation (as someone else in this thread shared a story when they did tell a FA to get seated), just trying to blame the OP for not doing anything isn't making the situation any different because the FA put themselves in that situation.
 
bennett123
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Re: FA not seated for landing?

Wed Dec 14, 2016 8:10 am

Based on the OP, the FA was not carrying out hiss duties throughout the flight.

This is the Root Cause of this incident.

This needs to be reported.

What is unclear is that none of this,(throughout the flight) was noticed by the other Cabin Crew.

I expect that the airline will be interested in that as well.
 
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BN727227Ultra
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Re: FA not seated for landing?

Wed Dec 14, 2016 1:31 pm

I was on a flight LAX-LAS last summer where the FAs were collecting trash up until about a minute before landing.
 
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longhauler
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Re: FA not seated for landing?

Wed Dec 14, 2016 2:08 pm

tjerome wrote:
And most importantly, it shouldn't be the customer's responsibility for the safety of the employee, especially when said employee goes through rigorous training for their job.

Of course not ... but, often a passenger's perspective adds to the safety of the entire operation. For example ...

"We have snow on the wing, we're deicing aren't we?"
"I think there is something leaking from the engine?"
"That baggage cart just hit one of the engines, I don't think anyone noticed."
"We're pretty close to landing, maybe you should sit down."

What is curious about this tale, is that the other Flight Attendants didn't notice. Not just he was standing in the aisle, but that there was anyone standing in the aisle. They check the cabin is secure by looking from front to back. It would be very apparent if anyone were standing close to landing. Not to mention, with two F/A's in the aft jumpseats, the other would notice he was missing.
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BestWestern
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Re: FA not seated for landing?

Wed Dec 14, 2016 2:35 pm

In China, airlines sometimes cater flights on the ground due delays. I've had more than one flight where the aircraft has had an shorter than expected delay where the aircraft took off with catering trays still being repacked by cabin crew.

Some airlines operate a 'cabin secured' report to flight deck, others have a don't disturb cockpit scenario.
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cloudboy
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Re: FA not seated for landing?

Wed Dec 14, 2016 3:38 pm

Ah how times change. I remember in the 90s seeing this type of thing (more during takeoff than during landing) all the time.
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Rajahdhani
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Re: FA not seated for landing?

Wed Dec 14, 2016 3:56 pm

longhauler wrote:
I am curious what the other Flight Attendants were doing.

No one else noticed he wasn't in position for landing?


I don't know which is worse - the fact that the flight supervisor (or, senior most flight attendant) failed to notice - or - more likely, he was the 'flight supervisor'.

While quite a few posters here are singing the 'kumbaya' of unity - this was a failure. This person was paid, to do a job - and failed at his primary task - preparing his cabin for the appropriate mode of flight.

An entire structure (both corporate and governmental) was developed to maintain the not only high, but necessarily so - standard of operations, and best practices - making it one of the safest aviation environments in the World. People, if left unreminded and unchecked - become complacent. Complacency has deadly consequences when flying is a science, more so than an art.

To hammer the point;
1). If he were not the supervisor, and the supervisor saw the event; it would be their (paid) responsibility to council that individual. Never mind the fact that this supervisor, and the rest of the flight crew (not only the passengers) depend on this person being alert, attentive, and in control of their cabin, at all times.
2). If a member of the customer relations team does find out about this; it would be their (paid) responsibility to not only reassure the passenger (and as quickly as they can do it well), but also track down said employee and contain that 'threat' before it does greater harm to the base of customers. To be frank, this is a relatively 'containable' event. From a legal perspective; the passenger was not injured (no liability, and his attorney could argue injury, with a decent case, and against a client that would easily settle - rather than drag out a case, about safety - when you are an airline...). From a P.R. perspective - the passenger didn't 'put them on blast' and, like most modern passengers - film, then upload to social media - the whole thing. Just imagine the memes...#neverending.
3). If any member of staff more senior in the command chain (above the 'flight supervisor' title, and/or even off duty flight crew who might be onboard) it would have been their responsibility to either directly speak with, correct immediately, or even report (post-event). Their lack of response, could be argued, to be condoning unsafe practices. Keep in mind, past their own job loss - the company, if found liable could be fined for said behavior (by the DOT). You never know who is on-board, especially on a hub-hub route.

This person was paid to - prior to landing, secure his cabin, and man his station. He failed, and a passenger clearly demonstrated not only why he was distracted, but suffered nearly being injured for that employee's complacency.

How should this be handled? Surprisingly, B6 does has thousands of members of staff, and they all have access to their H.R. departments, and their employee handbooks. For the sake of safety - the matter should be investigated, the flight attendant located, and counseled. There may indeed be mitigating circumstances that we are unaware of (there was no audible call out for landing), but this flight attendent will for the very least - be much more obeservant in future. If he/she never makes the mistake again, and is not only conscious - but prepares, and helps focus others as he/she works for years more with the company - then you have the best possible outcome. This person is not a failure, they failed in one task. Bring it to their attention, council and move on.

Here's the thing that is worrisome;

Last flight of the day, and they're delayed. They seem to rush through the flight, and miss key points (like the landing 'chime', if applicable in this sense). What else could they have missed? I am not saying that 'stuff' does not happen every day, and that there are not fantastic men and women over-worked and underpaid everyday that provide perfection - even in the face of challenges - however, isn't this like the bad script, for the opening of a FAA report?
Last edited by Rajahdhani on Wed Dec 14, 2016 4:05 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
oldannyboy
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Re: FA not seated for landing?

Wed Dec 14, 2016 4:01 pm

I've personally had at least two episodes in which FAS were still standing during the take-off roll/landing for various non-obvious reasons, plus a number of incidents in which crazy/unruly passengers were standing during take-off and landing... The best had to be the old barefoot lady at the far back of a SAS MD-80 rearranging her bags in the overhead locker during one of those ever so steep Mad Dog's take-offs out of Arlanda... she tumbled all the way, wayyyy down and back into the FA's lap at the far back of the cabin... the pax's roaring laughter could be heard even above those screaming JT8Ds...!!!
 
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exFWAOONW
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Re: FA not seated for landing?

Wed Dec 14, 2016 4:55 pm

Do we know for sure the delayed boarding wasn't caused by a glitch at check-in? Maybe he was smoothing things over with the pax (ie PR work) in an attempt to KEEP a customer. Even if this was the case, he still should have maintained situational awareness. A relatively minor safety issue, a slap on the wrist should suffice.
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XLA2008
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Re: FA not seated for landing?

Wed Dec 14, 2016 5:39 pm

oldannyboy wrote:
I've personally had at least two episodes in which FAS were still standing during the take-off roll/landing for various non-obvious reasons, plus a number of incidents in which crazy/unruly passengers were standing during take-off and landing... The best had to be the old barefoot lady at the far back of a SAS MD-80 rearranging her bags in the overhead locker during one of those ever so steep Mad Dog's take-offs out of Arlanda... she tumbled all the way, wayyyy down and back into the FA's lap at the far back of the cabin... the pax's roaring laughter could be heard even above those screaming JT8Ds...!!!


I've had pax stand up during landing before, there is little that can be done at that exact time because we can't leave our jumpseat, however one particular women that had been causing issues most of the flight, i wouldn't go as far as to say unruly however she was warned to stop her behavior, anyway she stood up on the final approach, she was shouted at to sit down seconds before we hit the tarmac, needless to say the police were waiting on the stand when we arrived, this was in Egypt (not exactly where you want to be arrested,) her actions endangered herself and the people around her! Perhaps and I hope that was a learning curve for her, the action of standing isn't what made us call the police but her entire behavior and disregard for instructions, it was just the act of standing that was one step too far! However she was a passenger, had that been a crew member on my flight they would not have been standing during landing!
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Re: FA not seated for landing?

Wed Dec 14, 2016 5:53 pm

exFWAOONW wrote:
Do we know for sure the delayed boarding wasn't caused by a glitch at check-in? Maybe he was smoothing things over with the pax (ie PR work) in an attempt to KEEP a customer. Even if this was the case, he still should have maintained situational awareness. A relatively minor safety issue, a slap on the wrist should suffice.



It is not a minor safety issue, it is a massive infraction of safety procedure.

Each FA SHALL be seated at his/her emergency exit station, performing the silent review.
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Re: FA not seated for landing?

Wed Dec 14, 2016 6:28 pm

Hi. I'm the OP, and I want to say thank you to everyone who has responded -- your comments are interesting and informative. To respond to a few points made up the thread: I was seated on the aisle and it was dark outside, and while I knew we were on approach I had no way to tell how close we were to landing; I imagine the FA in question was similarly surprised. I bear him no ill will as he was otherwise perfectly pleasant and professional, and, as I mentioned in my original post, I was certainly concerned for his safety and well-being as much as my own and for those around him. Since I had never seen this happen before I was mostly curious to know whether it's a frequent occurrence, and from the comments here it sounds like something that, while rare, does happen from time to time for various reasons. As for the group of 21 passengers, they spent a lot of time explaining to everyone around them that they were late for the flight because they were late leaving for the airport -- honestly they were a pretty obnoxious bunch (to put it diplomatically) and were a handful for the cabin crew. Apart from the departure delay and the landing incident, jetBlue delivered me to Orlando safely and comfortably and for a fair price, and for all of that I am grateful.
 
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Re: FA not seated for landing?

Wed Dec 14, 2016 7:33 pm

SAAFNAV wrote:
mikegigs wrote:
She made it back to the rear jumpseat pretty quick and was seated before we reached V1 but still i wonder how common this is.


Would you mind telling us how you know what V1 for this take off was, and how you knew from the back when you reached it?


Well she made it back in about 5 seconds after we started our takeoff roll, so no I do not know exactly what V1 was, but it seemed like a safe assumption that we had not reached it yet...
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Re: FA not seated for landing?

Wed Dec 14, 2016 8:55 pm

XLA2008 wrote:
He wouldn't have been covering his door, if an emergency had of happened he would have been incapacitated which would hinder an evacuation, he could have caused serious injury to other passengers and himself, although at that point injuring other passengers is more an issue than injuring himself! It was a foolish move, the other crew onboard should have told him to be seated, and if he continued to ignore I would have written him up, that's a serious infraction, he was ignoring standard operating procedures and safety procedures which makes you wonder how many other safety and security procedures he over looks, does he do security checks, does he bother to check his equipment? It's not just the act of not taking his seat it's the bigger picture of his blatant disregard for the safety and security of the aircraft! I would write in and complain to JetBlue about it, given the flight number and route they will be able to find out who was scheduled to operate on that flight and given enough information about the crew member they will track him down! Never under estimate the power of complaints, at my airline if a flight has a complaint we know about it, and if it's a personal complaint against one of us, you can be sure we will end up in the office about it!


Would love to fly with you. Bet you do everything just perfectly. Never made a mistake huh?
 
Dominion301
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Re: FA not seated for landing?

Wed Dec 14, 2016 9:00 pm

evanbu wrote:
Or you could just simply chalk it up as an honest mistake and not narc the flight attendant out...


Agreed. I once was on a full AC Rapidair YYZ-YOW A320 where all 3 FAs didn't make it to their seats and were standing at touchdown. They were trying to prep the cabin for landing still and simply ran out of time...sometimes YYZ-YOW is less than 40 minutes in the air. Not much time to dish out a full beverage and snack service to 140 pax. I was on a late night flight too. I think it was the 2230 departure. Fortunately the PIC greased the landing, so it was a very light bump upon touchdown.

SAAFNAV wrote:
exFWAOONW wrote:
Do we know for sure the delayed boarding wasn't caused by a glitch at check-in? Maybe he was smoothing things over with the pax (ie PR work) in an attempt to KEEP a customer. Even if this was the case, he still should have maintained situational awareness. A relatively minor safety issue, a slap on the wrist should suffice.



It is not a minor safety issue, it is a massive infraction of safety procedure.

Each FA SHALL be seated at his/her emergency exit station, performing the silent review.


In a perfect world, yes each and every time. However, see above.
Last edited by Dominion301 on Wed Dec 14, 2016 9:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
catiii
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Re: FA not seated for landing?

Wed Dec 14, 2016 9:02 pm

Rajahdhani wrote:
longhauler wrote:
I am curious what the other Flight Attendants were doing.

This person was paid, to do a job - and failed at his primary task - preparing his cabin for the appropriate mode of flight.




Great! You must be a B6 inflight CM. Walk us through what cabin preparations were not completed prior to landing.
 
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Re: FA not seated for landing?

Wed Dec 14, 2016 9:05 pm

catiii wrote:
Rajahdhani wrote:
longhauler wrote:
I am curious what the other Flight Attendants were doing.

This person was paid, to do a job - and failed at his primary task - preparing his cabin for the appropriate mode of flight.




Great! You must be a B6 inflight CM. Walk us through what cabin preparations were not completed prior to landing.


Longhauler's an AC captain. I think he knows a thing or two about FA procedures even if he's not actually one himself.

Having said that, longhauler, see my AC post just above. ;)
 
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Re: FA not seated for landing?

Wed Dec 14, 2016 9:28 pm

evanbu wrote:
Or you could just simply chalk it up as an honest mistake and not narc the flight attendant out...



I don't know how you couldn't be not prepared for landing. I probably would have got his attention as quickly as I could and had a quiet word about it (in a very subtle way) and said nothing more.

If we as passengers did the same however, there would be an angry mob coming after us, or we'd probably be marched off the plane by Police and face the rest of our lives with "SSSS" on our tickets. ;)
 
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Re: FA not seated for landing?

Thu Dec 15, 2016 12:18 am

catiii wrote:
Great! You must be a B6 inflight CM. Walk us through what cabin preparations were not completed prior to landing.

That was incorrectly quoted to me, but I will respond anyway. As noted I am an AC Captain.

The "cabin secure" signal given to the cockpit is generated by the head of the cabin staff (his/her) title is irrlevant at this point. The signal is given before pushback, before take-off and before landing. In adddition to a lot of other things, basically it is an indication that the passengers are in their seats, and the Flight Attendants are in their intended positions.

So ... to generate that signal before landing the passengers must be seated and so must the F/As. If that signal is not given, then investigation must start before landing. Either the head of the cabin staff did not check the aisles, or the F/A in question was the head of the cabin staff, either way the "cabin secure" signal was not given.

This is not ideal, but as noted, it does happen ... usually on very short flights where meal service is given. I am surprised therefore that this gentleman was caught short on a JFK-MCO flight. But ... it does happen.

I once was on a full AC Rapidair YYZ-YOW A320 where all 3 FAs didn't make it to their seats and were standing at touchdown. They were trying to prep the cabin for landing still and simply ran out of time...sometimes YYZ-YOW is less than 40 minutes in the air. Not much time to dish out a full beverage and snack service to 140 pax


This is not SOP. And, there are procedures in place so it will not happen. I have seen as short as 33 minutes off 05 in YYZ to 07 in YOW. If it is estimated that the cabin will not be secure then there are things we in the cockpit can do ... and are expected to do. But we need communication from the F/As.

I have a lot of sympathy for the F/A in question, as I can see how it happens. If it does get reported, he wont get fired, but he will be reminded to be more vigilant.
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Flightsimboy
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Re: FA not seated for landing?

Thu Dec 15, 2016 12:36 am

Was sitting at the back years ago on a TG flight. The flight was on finals and the crew were seated in, except for two at the back who were still emptying out wine bottles and slamming shut cupboards. Just seconds before touchdown they manged to strap themselves in. Would have been quite the bump on landing if still standing.
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SAAFNAV
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Re: FA not seated for landing?

Thu Dec 15, 2016 4:53 am

mikegigs wrote:
SAAFNAV wrote:
mikegigs wrote:
She made it back to the rear jumpseat pretty quick and was seated before we reached V1 but still i wonder how common this is.


Would you mind telling us how you know what V1 for this take off was, and how you knew from the back when you reached it?


Well she made it back in about 5 seconds after we started our takeoff roll, so no I do not know exactly what V1 was, but it seemed like a safe assumption that we had not reached it yet...


That sounds like just throwing terms around.
From the rear of the aircraft, V1 is pretty irrelevant. You might as well have been citing Vr, VMCA or any other speed, since within 5 seconds you wouldn't have reached either one.
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Re: FA not seated for landing?

Thu Dec 15, 2016 5:00 am

Dominion301 wrote:

In a perfect world, yes each and every time. However, see above.


Still, the fact that did happen in your scenario doesn't make it normal or less compulsory.

The Captain should actually not land until the cabin secure call (that point might vary according to other SOP's, I'm not sure about other country's laws), so the point remains, each FA shall man his/her station during landing. (this point is in the regulations and not variable, unless a greater emergency exists). In the event that an FA is tied up with something that took more time, like CPR or firefighting, the other FA's should've briefed an able bodied passenger to sit in the jumpseat and open the emergency exit should something happen.
CFI/Gr. III, L-382 Loadmaster, ex C-130B Navigator
 
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XLA2008
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Re: FA not seated for landing?

Thu Dec 15, 2016 9:26 am

catiii wrote:
XLA2008 wrote:
He wouldn't have been covering his door, if an emergency had of happened he would have been incapacitated which would hinder an evacuation, he could have caused serious injury to other passengers and himself, although at that point injuring other passengers is more an issue than injuring himself! It was a foolish move, the other crew onboard should have told him to be seated, and if he continued to ignore I would have written him up, that's a serious infraction, he was ignoring standard operating procedures and safety procedures which makes you wonder how many other safety and security procedures he over looks, does he do security checks, does he bother to check his equipment? It's not just the act of not taking his seat it's the bigger picture of his blatant disregard for the safety and security of the aircraft! I would write in and complain to JetBlue about it, given the flight number and route they will be able to find out who was scheduled to operate on that flight and given enough information about the crew member they will track him down! Never under estimate the power of complaints, at my airline if a flight has a complaint we know about it, and if it's a personal complaint against one of us, you can be sure we will end up in the office about it!


Would love to fly with you. Bet you do everything just perfectly. Never made a mistake huh?


I'm human I make mistakes, but I've never made a mistake that jeopardizes the safety of the cabin... because I'm trained well and so are my teams and colleagues! I know my job and I'm not complacent! Clearly you are!
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Dominion301
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Re: FA not seated for landing?

Thu Dec 15, 2016 2:04 pm

longhauler wrote:
catiii wrote:
Great! You must be a B6 inflight CM. Walk us through what cabin preparations were not completed prior to landing.

That was incorrectly quoted to me, but I will respond anyway. As noted I am an AC Captain.

The "cabin secure" signal given to the cockpit is generated by the head of the cabin staff (his/her) title is irrlevant at this point. The signal is given before pushback, before take-off and before landing. In adddition to a lot of other things, basically it is an indication that the passengers are in their seats, and the Flight Attendants are in their intended positions.

So ... to generate that signal before landing the passengers must be seated and so must the F/As. If that signal is not given, then investigation must start before landing. Either the head of the cabin staff did not check the aisles, or the F/A in question was the head of the cabin staff, either way the "cabin secure" signal was not given.

This is not ideal, but as noted, it does happen ... usually on very short flights where meal service is given. I am surprised therefore that this gentleman was caught short on a JFK-MCO flight. But ... it does happen.

I once was on a full AC Rapidair YYZ-YOW A320 where all 3 FAs didn't make it to their seats and were standing at touchdown. They were trying to prep the cabin for landing still and simply ran out of time...sometimes YYZ-YOW is less than 40 minutes in the air. Not much time to dish out a full beverage and snack service to 140 pax


This is not SOP. And, there are procedures in place so it will not happen. I have seen as short as 33 minutes off 05 in YYZ to 07 in YOW. If it is estimated that the cabin will not be secure then there are things we in the cockpit can do ... and are expected to do. But we need communication from the F/As.

I have a lot of sympathy for the F/A in question, as I can see how it happens. If it does get reported, he wont get fired, but he will be reminded to be more vigilant.


Definitely not SOP and something I'd never seen before, nor since...although I have seen a couple other times where the last F/A was seated within 30-60 seconds of touchdown. Definitely not the best communication between the front and back of the "bus", nor was it ideal to attempt a full snack service in that type of situation.
 
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Rookie87
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Re: FA not seated for landing?

Fri Dec 16, 2016 3:38 pm

XLA2008 wrote:
Rookie87 wrote:
XLA2008 wrote:
He wouldn't have been covering his door, if an emergency had of happened he would have been incapacitated which would hinder an evacuation, he could have caused serious injury to other passengers and himself, although at that point injuring other passengers is more an issue than injuring himself! It was a foolish move, the other crew onboard should have told him to be seated, and if he continued to ignore I would have written him up, that's a serious infraction, he was ignoring standard operating procedures and safety procedures which makes you wonder how many other safety and security procedures he over looks, does he do security checks, does he bother to check his equipment? It's not just the act of not taking his seat it's the bigger picture of his blatant disregard for the safety and security of the aircraft! I would write in and complain to JetBlue about it, given the flight number and route they will be able to find out who was scheduled to operate on that flight and given enough information about the crew member they will track him down! Never under estimate the power of complaints, at my airline if a flight has a complaint we know about it, and if it's a personal complaint against one of us, you can be sure we will end up in the office about it!



Well wow. Just "wow." You must be such a pleasure to work with.

Yes he should have been in his jumpseat but "maybe," just "maybe," he didn't hear the chime.
I've seen flight attendants scramble to their jumpseats while the aircraft flared on top of the runway. One incident the pilot did not say prepare for landing (you couldn't even see outside and I noticed them doing final checks while trying to check out the window). The other was in the middle of the night, similar incident, FA dealing with a passenger who had issues and boy did he run when he saw the runway lights and amazingly made it to his jumpseat.

IF the OP was so "steamed" or even the least bit concerned, why didnt he say ANYTHING to warn the FA? Youre SO quick to worry about yourself, that FA could have gotten seriously hurt depending on the landing.
But you're "steamed" that he fell on you..."he's a big guy"...at that point I stopped taking your post seriously.
Flight attendants are people and people don't notice things sometimes. We as people should be looking out for one another. Seems like you were more annoyed he was chummy with them instead of you and that you were delayed "well past" departure time and didn't leave them behind like so many other people get left behind usually


I am pretty fun to fly with as it goes, however no excuse for still standing during landing, 11 years of flying, 1000's of flights, I've never ever had a crew member standing during landing or missed a chime, given that all of your colleagues are in their jump seats is a bit of a giveaway that you shouldn't still be standing! Not to mention if you fly often enough you know the feeling and sound of the landing gear dropping which is clear indication your on finals and should be seated, their is NO excuse, and if the FA had been seriously injured it is by no fault than his own! And I'm damn right in what I said, he is complacent, ignorant to safety procedures and ignorant to his surroundings because he was to busy chatting away to whoever was onboard! FA's are employed for a reason and that's safety, so don't give me all your rubbish excuses for how he might have "missed" his command to be seated, he should know better and have common sense, otherwise don't work onboard an aircraft, stupid response from you! I mean if it had been a pilot that had missed his command then god knows how many people would be dead, no excuse in the world for complacency when it comes to safety onboard!

As for the airline I fly for, we have a great time, great trips and good laughs when flying together, we are renowned for our customer service and our safety record, but we know our job, we know what we are doing and we don't risk safety for a chat!! The only time you have an excuse to be out of your jump seat for landing is if your dealing with a medical emergency and even then most airlines will tell you to stop and take your jump seat and continue after you are on the ground! If you think he has an excuse then you don't know the role of an FA and have no respect for safety! And your response to they guy that posted this... clearly you shouldn't be in customer service, so let's hope you aren't lol!




Your whole tone has been of someone who has a stick stuck up where the sun doesn't shine. You have serious issues and I highly doubt you're any fun to work with based on your "NO" excuses baloney. People make mistakes, people miss chimes. If Doctors can leave crap in people after surgeries, a flight attendant can miss a chime. Just because you're the "perfect" flight attendant, doesn't give you the authority to pass judgement on someone based on an OP's one sided story. Claiming he's "steamed" and then back pedals about how he's grateful "eye roll."
As for as the "report him" mentality, I'm just amazed at how the aviation community has some "people" that think they are so perfect at what they do that everyone around them should be reported. If that doesn't say anything about your character, I don't know what does.
Should he have been in his jumpseat? YES
Should he be crucified for it? Absolutely not.
Yes it can be addressed but hey that's what ASAP is for and I'm sure he knows to be careful next time because he better than anyone else realized what kind of danger he put himself in by not paying better attention.
Those of you who have not done the job, please don't comment regarding how you would have reacted in his place. You've never done it so let's not play pretend.
 
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Rookie87
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Re: FA not seated for landing?

Fri Dec 16, 2016 3:42 pm

catiii wrote:
Rajahdhani wrote:
longhauler wrote:
I am curious what the other Flight Attendants were doing.

This person was paid, to do a job - and failed at his primary task - preparing his cabin for the appropriate mode of flight.




Great! You must be a B6 inflight CM. Walk us through what cabin preparations were not completed prior to landing.




LOL!!!
Watch out! The glorified headmistress flight attendant is going to lash out at you for not being perfect!
 
DiamondFlyer
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Re: FA not seated for landing?

Fri Dec 16, 2016 5:12 pm

longhauler wrote:
The "cabin secure" signal given to the cockpit is generated by the head of the cabin staff (his/her) title is irrlevant at this point. The signal is given before pushback, before take-off and before landing. In adddition to a lot of other things, basically it is an indication that the passengers are in their seats, and the Flight Attendants are in their intended positions.

So ... to generate that signal before landing the passengers must be seated and so must the F/As. If that signal is not given, then investigation must start before landing. Either the head of the cabin staff did not check the aisles, or the F/A in question was the head of the cabin staff, either way the "cabin secure" signal was not given.

This is not ideal, but as noted, it does happen ... usually on very short flights where meal service is given. I am surprised therefore that this gentleman was caught short on a JFK-MCO flight. But ... it does happen.

I once was on a full AC Rapidair YYZ-YOW A320 where all 3 FAs didn't make it to their seats and were standing at touchdown. They were trying to prep the cabin for landing still and simply ran out of time...sometimes YYZ-YOW is less than 40 minutes in the air. Not much time to dish out a full beverage and snack service to 140 pax


This is not SOP. And, there are procedures in place so it will not happen. I have seen as short as 33 minutes off 05 in YYZ to 07 in YOW. If it is estimated that the cabin will not be secure then there are things we in the cockpit can do ... and are expected to do. But we need communication from the F/As.

I have a lot of sympathy for the F/A in question, as I can see how it happens. If it does get reported, he wont get fired, but he will be reminded to be more vigilant.


Depends on the airline, where I work, we only get 2 cabin secures, prior to push and prior to takeoff. Prior to landing the FA gets a chime, but there is no response back from them required for us to land.
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SAAFNAV
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Re: FA not seated for landing?

Fri Dec 16, 2016 5:55 pm

Rookie87 wrote:
XLA2008 wrote:
Rookie87 wrote:


Well wow. Just "wow." You must be such a pleasure to work with.

Yes he should have been in his jumpseat but "maybe," just "maybe," he didn't hear the chime.
I've seen flight attendants scramble to their jumpseats while the aircraft flared on top of the runway. One incident the pilot did not say prepare for landing (you couldn't even see outside and I noticed them doing final checks while trying to check out the window). The other was in the middle of the night, similar incident, FA dealing with a passenger who had issues and boy did he run when he saw the runway lights and amazingly made it to his jumpseat.

IF the OP was so "steamed" or even the least bit concerned, why didnt he say ANYTHING to warn the FA? Youre SO quick to worry about yourself, that FA could have gotten seriously hurt depending on the landing.
But you're "steamed" that he fell on you..."he's a big guy"...at that point I stopped taking your post seriously.
Flight attendants are people and people don't notice things sometimes. We as people should be looking out for one another. Seems like you were more annoyed he was chummy with them instead of you and that you were delayed "well past" departure time and didn't leave them behind like so many other people get left behind usually


I am pretty fun to fly with as it goes, however no excuse for still standing during landing, 11 years of flying, 1000's of flights, I've never ever had a crew member standing during landing or missed a chime, given that all of your colleagues are in their jump seats is a bit of a giveaway that you shouldn't still be standing! Not to mention if you fly often enough you know the feeling and sound of the landing gear dropping which is clear indication your on finals and should be seated, their is NO excuse, and if the FA had been seriously injured it is by no fault than his own! And I'm damn right in what I said, he is complacent, ignorant to safety procedures and ignorant to his surroundings because he was to busy chatting away to whoever was onboard! FA's are employed for a reason and that's safety, so don't give me all your rubbish excuses for how he might have "missed" his command to be seated, he should know better and have common sense, otherwise don't work onboard an aircraft, stupid response from you! I mean if it had been a pilot that had missed his command then god knows how many people would be dead, no excuse in the world for complacency when it comes to safety onboard!

As for the airline I fly for, we have a great time, great trips and good laughs when flying together, we are renowned for our customer service and our safety record, but we know our job, we know what we are doing and we don't risk safety for a chat!! The only time you have an excuse to be out of your jump seat for landing is if your dealing with a medical emergency and even then most airlines will tell you to stop and take your jump seat and continue after you are on the ground! If you think he has an excuse then you don't know the role of an FA and have no respect for safety! And your response to they guy that posted this... clearly you shouldn't be in customer service, so let's hope you aren't lol!




Your whole tone has been of someone who has a stick stuck up where the sun doesn't shine. You have serious issues and I highly doubt you're any fun to work with based on your "NO" excuses baloney. People make mistakes, people miss chimes. If Doctors can leave crap in people after surgeries, a flight attendant can miss a chime. Just because you're the "perfect" flight attendant, doesn't give you the authority to pass judgement on someone based on an OP's one sided story. Claiming he's "steamed" and then back pedals about how he's grateful "eye roll."
As for as the "report him" mentality, I'm just amazed at how the aviation community has some "people" that think they are so perfect at what they do that everyone around them should be reported. If that doesn't say anything about your character, I don't know what does.
Should he have been in his jumpseat? YES
Should he be crucified for it? Absolutely not.
Yes it can be addressed but hey that's what ASAP is for and I'm sure he knows to be careful next time because he better than anyone else realized what kind of danger he put himself in by not paying better attention.
Those of you who have not done the job, please don't comment regarding how you would have reacted in his place. You've never done it so let's not play pretend.



Turning a button left instead of right is a mistake. Not turning a button at all, if that is your sole responsibility trained for, is inexcusable.

I bet you'd be the first person to sue if the pilot made a minor 'mistake' that ended up killing everybody.
CFI/Gr. III, L-382 Loadmaster, ex C-130B Navigator
 
falkerker
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Re: FA not seated for landing?

Fri Dec 16, 2016 7:17 pm

Rookie87 wrote:

Yes he should have been in his jumpseat but "maybe," just "maybe," he didn't hear the chime.


It is standard operating procedure and, if not complied with, answers must be given as to why. Yes, FAs are people, but they are trained to follow procedure. As a surgeon, what would you feel if I said, "yes, your mom had a tumor and we didnt operate on it on time because "maybe we didn´t hear the chime"

Oh, and before you start complaining about how an FA not being at the jumpseat on landing is not comparable with my example, procedures and protocols are there for a reason, the reason usually being safety and safety is not to be downplayed, specially on an airplane
 
falkerker
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Re: FA not seated for landing?

Fri Dec 16, 2016 7:28 pm

Rookie87 wrote:


You have serious issues and I highly doubt you're any fun to work with based on your "NO" excuses baloney. People make mistakes, people miss chimes. If Doctors can leave crap in people after surgeries, a flight attendant can miss a chime.


If a doctor leaves "crap in people after surgery" they are sued and they have a first-hand lesson of a thing called "res-ipsa loquitur" or that which speaks by itself meaning a mistake so obvious you need not explain to see that a mess-up ocurred (operating on the wrong leg, leaving "crap" in people or standing during landing and injuring a passenger). Had that FA injured OP he (OP) would have a field day suing and the airline would have to write down a lot of zeroes, just like a doctor leaving "crap". So, just as there are standard procedures before closing a surgery to ensure no "crap" is left behind, FAs MUST be seated during landing. The fact that you can find many examples of FAs not seated, or patients with gauze and stuff left behing does not mean it should be taken lightly or that they are not responsible for their actions.

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Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos