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enilria
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"Chinese Airlines Flooding World with Super-Cheap Airfares"

Wed Dec 14, 2016 11:48 pm

That's what Bloomberg says. Oddly DL/AA/US aren't screaming about this like they did with EK/EY/QR. Could it be because they are partnered with these carriers?

This smells to me like a bounceback story from Fair Skies opening a can of worms. It used to be when fares were low the articles were positive, but thanks to Fair Skies it is now a bad thing indicative of the fall of U.S. aviation.

Chinese airlines are flooding the world with some of the lowest long-haul fares ever seen -- and delivering a hammer blow to foreign carriers trying to keep up. From Delta Air Lines Inc. and American Airlines Group Inc. in the U.S., to Cathay Pacific Airways Ltd. and Korean Air, many operators are feeling the squeeze from the extended reach of mainland Chinese carriers.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... l-carriers
 
carlokiii
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Re: "Chinese Airlines Flooding World with Super-Cheap Airfares"

Thu Dec 15, 2016 12:08 am

I don't have a stand regarding this story, but CZ and MU, among others, really do offer some impressively low fares on connecting flights. Granted, CX, EK, KE, and even NH, also offer fares just as low every now and again, but notably not as consistently 'discounted' as mainland China carriers.

Makes you wonder where they keep costs low to offer such affordable fares.
 
downdata
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Re: "Chinese Airlines Flooding World with Super-Cheap Airfares"

Thu Dec 15, 2016 12:14 am

Well, at least they are passing on the fuel savings for the large numbers of 787s they own
 
crazyplane1234
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Re: "Chinese Airlines Flooding World with Super-Cheap Airfares"

Thu Dec 15, 2016 2:38 am

enilria wrote:
Oddly DL/AA/US aren't screaming about this like they did with EK/EY/QR.

The reason the US3 aren't complaining is because Chinese airlines are usually seen as having inferior service. (Search up MU reviews if you don't believe me.)
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: "Chinese Airlines Flooding World with Super-Cheap Airfares"

Thu Dec 15, 2016 2:39 am

US3 shouldn't have any complaints about Chinese carriers because China is not a OpenSkies partner and every single route is applied by Chinese carriers and approved by USDOT.

There are checks in place to control capacity unlike by an abusive OpenSkies partner who can dump capacity at will.
 
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LAXintl
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Re: "Chinese Airlines Flooding World with Super-Cheap Airfares"

Thu Dec 15, 2016 2:43 am

Chinese airlines have low cost base. They also have profitable domestic operations that help fund longhaul growth.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
SFOtoORD
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Re: "Chinese Airlines Flooding World with Super-Cheap Airfares"

Thu Dec 15, 2016 3:03 am

enilria wrote:
That's what Bloomberg says. Oddly DL/AA/US aren't screaming about this like they did with EK/EY/QR. Could it be because they are partnered with these carriers?


Or because they only have to compete with the Chinese carriers on routes to China and the Chinese carriers have little US brand recognition.

As opposed to the ME3 who compete with them on a much larger global set of destinations and have some US brand recognition.
 
downdata
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Re: "Chinese Airlines Flooding World with Super-Cheap Airfares"

Thu Dec 15, 2016 3:05 am

crazyplane1234 wrote:
enilria wrote:
Oddly DL/AA/US aren't screaming about this like they did with EK/EY/QR.

The reason the US3 aren't complaining is because Chinese airlines are usually seen as having inferior service. (Search up MU reviews if you don't believe me.)


I dont buy it. You cant do much worse than The US3. If you have ever flown AA domesic J then you have seen the very bottom of the barrel.
 
grbauc
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Re: "Chinese Airlines Flooding World with Super-Cheap Airfares"

Thu Dec 15, 2016 3:52 am

downdata wrote:
crazyplane1234 wrote:
enilria wrote:
Oddly DL/AA/US aren't screaming about this like they did with EK/EY/QR.

The reason the US3 aren't complaining is because Chinese airlines are usually seen as having inferior service. (Search up MU reviews if you don't believe me.)


I dont buy it. You cant do much worse than The US3. If you have ever flown AA domesic J then you have seen the very bottom of the barrel.


This comment is worthless. AA domestic J is on par with most airlines of the world. For the size of the airline your chances of getting FA that aren't 100% might be slightly higher. Heck On any airline this bound to happen. Bottom of the barrel would be some of the flights i've taken intra Africa or PNG.
 
keitherson
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Re: "Chinese Airlines Flooding World with Super-Cheap Airfares"

Thu Dec 15, 2016 3:57 am

downdata wrote:
crazyplane1234 wrote:
enilria wrote:
Oddly DL/AA/US aren't screaming about this like they did with EK/EY/QR.

The reason the US3 aren't complaining is because Chinese airlines are usually seen as having inferior service. (Search up MU reviews if you don't believe me.)


I dont buy it. You cant do much worse than The US3. If you have ever flown AA domesic J then you have seen the very bottom of the barrel.

You ever fly Euro Business?
 
MaverickM11
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Re: "Chinese Airlines Flooding World with Super-Cheap Airfares"

Thu Dec 15, 2016 4:37 am

Has absolutely nothing to do with service levels. It's all about a mismatch of supply and demand--it's the same reason EY charges less than $1000 all in for J on Africa-Asia roundtrips. Chinese carriers are adding a lot of politically driven international service that is near impossible to fill; layer in their...uh...rudimentary pricing/revenue management/sales capabilities and you get dirt cheap fares. And in a lot of cases OA match.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
Varsity1
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Re: "Chinese Airlines Flooding World with Super-Cheap Airfares"

Thu Dec 15, 2016 5:07 am

keitherson wrote:
downdata wrote:
crazyplane1234 wrote:
The reason the US3 aren't complaining is because Chinese airlines are usually seen as having inferior service. (Search up MU reviews if you don't believe me.)


I dont buy it. You cant do much worse than The US3. If you have ever flown AA domesic J then you have seen the very bottom of the barrel.

You ever fly Euro Business?



Nonsense! bashing the US3 is a full time job on A.net. unfounded or not.
"PPRuNe will no longer allow discussions regarding Etihad Airlines, its employees, executives, agents, or other representatives. Such threads will be deleted." - ME3 thug airlines suing anyone who brings negative information public..
 
caverunner17
Posts: 265
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Re: "Chinese Airlines Flooding World with Super-Cheap Airfares"

Thu Dec 15, 2016 5:11 am

SFOtoORD wrote:
enilria wrote:
That's what Bloomberg says. Oddly DL/AA/US aren't screaming about this like they did with EK/EY/QR. Could it be because they are partnered with these carriers?


Or because they only have to compete with the Chinese carriers on routes to China and the Chinese carriers have little US brand recognition.

As opposed to the ME3 who compete with them on a much larger global set of destinations and have some US brand recognition.

Uhhh try all over Asia. I frequently see cheap fares on EVA, China Southern or Hainan to places all over Asia and SE Asia.
 
keitherson
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Re: "Chinese Airlines Flooding World with Super-Cheap Airfares"

Thu Dec 15, 2016 5:23 am

Varsity1 wrote:
keitherson wrote:
downdata wrote:

I dont buy it. You cant do much worse than The US3. If you have ever flown AA domesic J then you have seen the very bottom of the barrel.

You ever fly Euro Business?



Nonsense! bashing the US3 is a full time job on A.net. unfounded or not.


The other pastime: nonstop praise for those carriers that have nothing but brand-new widebodies. Amazing! Pan Am!
 
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mercure1
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Re: "Chinese Airlines Flooding World with Super-Cheap Airfares"

Thu Dec 15, 2016 5:25 am

Per IATA China will become the globes single largest travel market, and Asia region will account for nearly 50 percent of enplanements by 2025, so its quite natural for Chinese airlines will increasingly drive global airline markets.

Personally I believe the Chinese effects we are seeing are in the infancy and any changes made by ME3 will look small compared to what effects China will create in the market. Exciting times are ahead!
mercure f-wtcc
 
anshabhi
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Re: "Chinese Airlines Flooding World with Super-Cheap Airfares"

Thu Dec 15, 2016 5:34 am

The good thing- Indians will say no to China on any day.. So, like ME3 we cant attribute their success/failure to a single county like India.
 
lutfi
Posts: 887
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Re: "Chinese Airlines Flooding World with Super-Cheap Airfares"

Thu Dec 15, 2016 5:36 am

Yep, my nephew got a flight LON-AKL on CZ business class same price as BA/NZ/QF Premium Economy. As he is 6 foot 3, he was very happy
 
anrec80
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Re: "Chinese Airlines Flooding World with Super-Cheap Airfares"

Thu Dec 15, 2016 5:45 am

carlokiii wrote:
I don't have a stand regarding this story, but CZ and MU, among others, really do offer some impressively low fares on connecting flights. Granted, CX, EK, KE, and even NH, also offer fares just as low every now and again, but notably not as consistently 'discounted' as mainland China carriers.

Makes you wonder where they keep costs low to offer such affordable fares.


Yepp, those guys do offer some really great deals. A few months ago I flew MU to ICN in J via PVG for slightly more than KE's Y fare for that day. And it was absolutely marvelous - lie-flat beds, service, brand new 77W.
 
Aither
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Re: "Chinese Airlines Flooding World with Super-Cheap Airfares"

Thu Dec 15, 2016 6:14 am

This is what I was saying a few months ago and it's impacting all the airlines in the region and beyond : it's massive and it's just a result of politics getting too much involved in the businesses.
With the one Chinese airline per international route policy they are all putting a lot of capacity to enter or block other Chinese carriers. Add to that local subsidies that can cover up to 70% of a long haul costs and you end up with one of the greatest traffic/yield/network mess in the history of aviation.
US airlines don't complain so far because it's mostly low yield Chinese pax. But they are moving fast in improving the quality. Once the Chinese airlines & airports will have understand how to connect passengers it will be a blood bath in the region and for the US airlines it will be too late to say something.
Never trust the obvious
 
b747400erf
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Re: "Chinese Airlines Flooding World with Super-Cheap Airfares"

Thu Dec 15, 2016 6:41 am

The prestige routes American carriers are flying are not impacted. That could be why they aren't complaining, yet.
 
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LionelHutz
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Re: "Chinese Airlines Flooding World with Super-Cheap Airfares"

Thu Dec 15, 2016 7:21 am

Waterbomber wrote:
The big question is: would you fly a Chinese carrier for a 100 EUR saving? Personally, I wouldn't go anywhere near aircraft flown and maintained by people who barely understand English.
.


Similar.
For me, it's got nothing to do with English proficiency or Chinese carriers in particular, I simply don't trust some airlines maintenance, systems or training, and associate dirt-cheap fares with dirt cheap practices and attitudes.
 
lutfi
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Re: "Chinese Airlines Flooding World with Super-Cheap Airfares"

Thu Dec 15, 2016 7:57 am

Actually, Chinese airlines safety records are as good as mainline US or European carriers. CAAC (Chinese FAA) are very safety conscious

China Airlines had some issues a few years back, but they are Taiwanese, here we are talking about Mainland carriers
 
Gemuser
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Re: "Chinese Airlines Flooding World with Super-Cheap Airfares"

Thu Dec 15, 2016 8:12 am

IT seems a reasonable observation of the situation in Australia. It rather makes the ME3 seem like the good guys!

Gemuser
 
WIederling
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Re: "Chinese Airlines Flooding World with Super-Cheap Airfares"

Thu Dec 15, 2016 9:29 am

enilria wrote:
That's what Bloomberg says. Oddly DL/AA/US aren't screaming about this like they did with EK/EY/QR. Could it be because they are partnered with these carriers?


China can ( and will ) retaliate. The ME 3 less so. Its a bullies world, after all :-)
Murphy is an optimist
 
MIflyer12
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Re: "Chinese Airlines Flooding World with Super-Cheap Airfares"

Thu Dec 15, 2016 12:56 pm

enilria wrote:
Could it be because they are partnered with these carriers?


Doubtful. A very small equity stake - as with Delta's 3.55% holding in China Southern - doesn't give a meaningful return to compensate for the decline in RPMs and fare declines on its own flights. Unlike the metal-neutral revenue/cost-pooling TATL joint ventures - DL AF KL is a good example - they're doing codeshares and interline.

It's more plausible that U.S. carriers aren't complaining too much because they understand there's nothing they can do about it. Chinese carriers have sufficient frequencies available from bilateral China-U.S. treaty (unlike in Canada) and the Chinese government isn't going to buckle to attempts at political pressure.
 
SFOtoORD
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Re: "Chinese Airlines Flooding World with Super-Cheap Airfares"

Thu Dec 15, 2016 2:57 pm

caverunner17 wrote:
SFOtoORD wrote:
enilria wrote:
That's what Bloomberg says. Oddly DL/AA/US aren't screaming about this like they did with EK/EY/QR. Could it be because they are partnered with these carriers?


Or because they only have to compete with the Chinese carriers on routes to China and the Chinese carriers have little US brand recognition.

As opposed to the ME3 who compete with them on a much larger global set of destinations and have some US brand recognition.

Uhhh try all over Asia. I frequently see cheap fares on EVA, China Southern or Hainan to places all over Asia and SE Asia.


I'm primarily a business traveler and I don't know a single person who has used the Chinese carriers (in not including EVA) to travel anywhere outside of China. Transiting China is not great.
 
caverunner17
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Re: "Chinese Airlines Flooding World with Super-Cheap Airfares"

Thu Dec 15, 2016 3:32 pm

SFOtoORD wrote:
caverunner17 wrote:
SFOtoORD wrote:

Or because they only have to compete with the Chinese carriers on routes to China and the Chinese carriers have little US brand recognition.

As opposed to the ME3 who compete with them on a much larger global set of destinations and have some US brand recognition.

Uhhh try all over Asia. I frequently see cheap fares on EVA, China Southern or Hainan to places all over Asia and SE Asia.


I'm primarily a business traveler and I don't know a single person who has used the Chinese carriers (in not including EVA) to travel anywhere outside of China. Transiting China is not great.

I met plenty of people when I was in Vietnam last month who had gotten on some of the deals. Most tourists are going to go with what's cheapest. Transiting in China isn't that bad. I did through Beijing last year and had no issues. Just gave them my US passport and my onward itinerary and I was good to go.
 
LondonCity
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Re: "Chinese Airlines Flooding World with Super-Cheap Airfares"

Thu Dec 15, 2016 3:43 pm

It's one reason for CX's poor financial performance and its decision to (in the near future) retrofit B777s 3-4-3 in Y.
 
ahj2000
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Re: "Chinese Airlines Flooding World with Super-Cheap Airfares"

Thu Dec 15, 2016 4:16 pm

keitherson wrote:
Varsity1 wrote:
keitherson wrote:
You ever fly Euro Business?



Nonsense! bashing the US3 is a full time job on A.net. unfounded or not.


The other pastime: nonstop praise for those carriers that have nothing but brand-new widebodies. Amazing! Pan Am!

Exactly. AA/DL/UA domestic J is actually quite good, compared to BA/AF/LH EuroBusiness products. (Hint: The seat has more than 30" of pitch :duck: )
The new-widebodies thing really doesn't apply to the US3 like it did PanAm. We have the AA 77W/789, DL A350, and UA 77W (as un-monumental as it really is), yes, but the US3 are actively trying to improve their narrowbodies too. Brand new 737/A320(soon to be neo), CS100. Plus, upgrading CR2 to E175. All are trying to make a newish airline domestically too.
-Andrés Juánez
 
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enilria
Topic Author
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Re: "Chinese Airlines Flooding World with Super-Cheap Airfares"

Thu Dec 15, 2016 4:31 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
US3 shouldn't have any complaints about Chinese carriers because China is not a OpenSkies partner and every single route is applied by Chinese carriers and approved by USDOT.

There are checks in place to control capacity unlike by an abusive OpenSkies partner who can dump capacity at will.

I think the USA carriers have been fighting for Open Skies with China and have openly hoped for JVs, so I'm not sure that holds much water.

mercure1 wrote:
Per IATA China will become the globes single largest travel market, and Asia region will account for nearly 50 percent of enplanements by 2025, so its quite natural for Chinese airlines will increasingly drive global airline markets.

Personally I believe the Chinese effects we are seeing are in the infancy and any changes made by ME3 will look small compared to what effects China will create in the market. Exciting times are ahead!

Agree
MIflyer12 wrote:
enilria wrote:
Could it be because they are partnered with these carriers?


Doubtful. A very small equity stake - as with Delta's 3.55% holding in China Southern - doesn't give a meaningful return to compensate for the decline in RPMs and fare declines on its own flights. Unlike the metal-neutral revenue/cost-pooling TATL joint ventures - DL AF KL is a good example - they're doing codeshares and interline.

It's more plausible that U.S. carriers aren't complaining too much because they understand there's nothing they can do about it. Chinese carriers have sufficient frequencies available from bilateral China-U.S. treaty (unlike in Canada) and the Chinese government isn't going to buckle to attempts at political pressure.

Delta has no stake in China Southern. They own part of China Eastern.
 
dtw2hyd
Posts: 7541
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Re: "Chinese Airlines Flooding World with Super-Cheap Airfares"

Thu Dec 15, 2016 7:34 pm

enilria wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
US3 shouldn't have any complaints about Chinese carriers because China is not a OpenSkies partner and every single route is applied by Chinese carriers and approved by USDOT.

There are checks in place to control capacity unlike by an abusive OpenSkies partner who can dump capacity at will.

I think the USA carriers have been fighting for Open Skies with China and have openly hoped for JVs, so I'm not sure that holds much water.


But China never signed Open Skies because they want to provide legal subsidized airfares to Chinese citizens, which is a noble position than tricking US into Open Skies and offer hidden subsidies.

Everyone knows exactly how much route subsidies are given out to 6 Chinese carriers, it is $1B/year.

IMHO this Chinese subsidy BS diversion tactic is not going to do any good knowing who is Trump's DOT nominee.
 
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GCT64
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Re: "Chinese Airlines Flooding World with Super-Cheap Airfares"

Thu Dec 15, 2016 7:55 pm

SFOtoORD wrote:
I'm primarily a business traveler and I don't know a single person who has used the Chinese carriers (in not including EVA) to travel anywhere outside of China. Transiting China is not great.


I'm a business passenger and I've used MU on LHR-PVG and also transited PVG to HKG on MU (although clearly that's not an ideal routing purely down to the time & hassle involved rather than any problem with the MU product or problems transiting PVG).

Everyone in the company travels in Y and I find MU's A330 preferable to the experience in Y on VS 787s (for example). MU have always looked after me very well.
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