BigGSFO
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Possible Horizon growth?

Thu Dec 15, 2016 8:09 pm

Now that AS/VX are on their way to becoming one airline, what future does Horizon have in the new organization? Can we expect more aircraft orders and an increase in smaller markets to link to SFO and LAX? Just curious as to hear what A.net has to say about this.
 
GabPtown
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Re: Possible Horizon growth?

Thu Dec 15, 2016 8:23 pm

With the new EMB-175's coming online, I personally would love to see more dots connected and added frequencies out of it's PDX hub........
 
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Re: Possible Horizon growth?

Thu Dec 15, 2016 8:47 pm

I was just looking through the archives to see if anyone knew of Horizon growing in Alaska beyond Fairbanks and Kodiak. With the EMB-175, they could pretty well hit all of Alaska from Anchorage with a smaller aircraft than the 737 (not much room for fish boxes, but...).

Are there any plans, known or speculated, for QX to expand in Alaska?
 
SurfandSnow
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Re: Possible Horizon growth?

Thu Dec 15, 2016 9:04 pm

BigGSFO wrote:
an increase in smaller markets to link to SFO and LAX?


I think we might see a few small market routes from the California hubs, like SFO-GEG and LAX-BOI, but there just isn't much gate space available at LAX or SFO these days. Key business markets and other highly requested destinations (i.e. ATL, KOA, LIH, MSY, PHL, PHX) will be given priority over smaller markets that simply have less appeal to O&D and connecting pax alike. However, outsourced E-175s seem to be the preferred tool for intrastate routes that compete against WN, so I wouldn't be surprised to see these aircraft used for routes like SFO-BUR/ONT and LAX-OAK/SJC/SMF. Does anyone know if the E-175 meets LGB's "commuter" slot criteria? With a competitive schedule I think LGB could be a lot more successful from SFO than it was from the Pacific Northwest...
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LAXintl
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Re: Possible Horizon growth?

Thu Dec 15, 2016 9:22 pm

SurfandSnow wrote:
Does anyone know if the E-175 meets LGB's "commuter" slot criteria?


Too big. Max certified takeoff weight must be 74,999lbs or less.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
PlanesNTrains
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Re: Possible Horizon growth?

Thu Dec 15, 2016 9:34 pm

LAXintl wrote:
SurfandSnow wrote:
Does anyone know if the E-175 meets LGB's "commuter" slot criteria?


Too big. Max certified takeoff weight must be 74,999lbs or less.


The CRJ-700 and Q400 can both use the commuter slots, I believe, so there should be room to add service at LGB if AS really wants to. I'm not convinced they'd be that interested though, and I don't know the status of the CRJ-700's with AAG.
-Dave


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b6sea
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Re: Possible Horizon growth?

Thu Dec 15, 2016 9:39 pm

I've wondered about this as well. It seems like it would make sense to add a few extra routes at both LAX and SFO, but probably nothing like the coverage you'd see out of SEA or PDX. At least, not in the near future, like others have mentioned, gate space is at a premium at both airports and it would be kind of a waste to use it for smaller routes if there are routes with similar yields that can attract more passengers.

I'm still not sure if QX intends to replace the Q400s with the E175s or if they are just an addition to the fleet on top of the Q400s. I'm hoping that the latter is true because I think there are a lot of routes that can really only be served with the Q400 (especially within Washington). I also wish they had something smaller than the Q400 because there are more small and growing markets in the Pacific Northwest that I think could really benefit from access to an Alaska Airlines with the national reach they have today more than they could have (or did) when Alaska was smaller and more regional.

As far as the state of Alaska goes, I know the folks in Fairbanks were pretty upset that the 737s were replaced with Q400s on some flights between FAI and ANC, but it seems to me that what really determines what happens in Alaska is cargo, since Alaska Airlines is Alaska's equivalent of a trucking company, in addition to passengers. Some routes might be operated with 20 passengers (but a belly full of cargo) and AS still laughs all the way to the bank on those runs.

Personally, I'd like to see a bigger QX that does more flying, especially in the Pacific NW, but also plays a greater role in California. But it's really hard to tell what direction AAG is heading with them, to be honest.
 
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LAXintl
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Re: Possible Horizon growth?

Thu Dec 15, 2016 9:48 pm

PlanesNTrains wrote:
I don't know the status of the CRJ-700's with AAG.


CRJ700 being replaced by E175 from Skywest.

b6sea wrote:
I'm still not sure if QX intends to replace the Q400s with the E175s or if they are just an addition to the fleet on top of the Q400s.


As part of the E175 order this year, AAG said it was returning atleast 15, and possibly up to 19 Q400s to their owners by end of 2018.
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Acey559
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Re: Possible Horizon growth?

Thu Dec 15, 2016 10:02 pm

I was on a QX flight a few weeks ago and was chatting with the FA as we had flown together numerous times when I worked at QX. She said they were told by Air Group that no Q400s will be returned and the new jets will be growth. She also mentioned a few intra-California routes that have been mentioned by the company, as well as some routes to the Midwest and mid-south but I don't remember any of the details.

I know of the dangers of flight attendant rumors, however she said everything was in informational emails sent by AAG management, so it seemed to have added weight over blind rumors.
In Dixie Land I'll take my stand to live and die in Dixie.
 
PlanesNTrains
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Re: Possible Horizon growth?

Thu Dec 15, 2016 10:02 pm

LAXintl wrote:
PlanesNTrains wrote:
I don't know the status of the CRJ-700's with AAG.


CRJ700 being replaced by E175 from Skywest.

b6sea wrote:
I'm still not sure if QX intends to replace the Q400s with the E175s or if they are just an addition to the fleet on top of the Q400s.


As part of the E175 order this year, AAG said it was returning atleast 15, and possibly up to 19 Q400s to their owners by end of 2018.


Ok got it. I was forgetting that was part of the deal. I don't mind the CRJ-700, but going all-Ejet/Q400 keeps it consistent for the customer.
-Dave


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Re: Possible Horizon growth?

Thu Dec 15, 2016 10:11 pm

b6sea wrote:
As far as the state of Alaska goes, ... what really determines what happens in Alaska is cargo, ... Some routes might be operated with 20 passengers (but a belly full of cargo) and AS still laughs all the way to the bank on those runs.


Indeed. I was hoping that QX would be a customer for the Q-400 Combi aircraft for that reason. I thought that would be a sure indication that Alaska was going for thin routes within the State.

By the bye, the complaints about the turboprops between ANC and FAI have essentially died. You get a better view, and free beer.
 
GoCougs
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Re: Possible Horizon growth?

Thu Dec 15, 2016 10:12 pm

I also wish they had something smaller than the Q400 because there are more small and growing markets in the Pacific Northwest that I think could really benefit from access to an Alaska Airlines with the national reach they have today more than they could have (or did) when Alaska was smaller and more regional.


It looks like AS was starting to use Penair in some of the smaller markets as feed into places like PDX.

http://www.opb.org/news/article/npr-pen ... st-cities/
 
DLASFlyer
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Re: Possible Horizon growth?

Thu Dec 15, 2016 10:25 pm

JAC would be a logical add from SEA, SFO, and/or LAX. Skywest flies CR7s on all three for AA/DL/UA.
 
SFOtoORD
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Re: Possible Horizon growth?

Thu Dec 15, 2016 10:37 pm

BigGSFO wrote:
Now that AS/VX are on their way to becoming one airline, what future does Horizon have in the new organization? Can we expect more aircraft orders and an increase in smaller markets to link to SFO and LAX? Just curious as to hear what A.net has to say about this.


If anything I'd expect AS to put bigger jets like the 739 in those markets to maximize limited gates.
 
Wingtips56
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Re: Possible Horizon growth?

Thu Dec 15, 2016 10:54 pm

GoCougs wrote:
I also wish they had something smaller than the Q400 because there are more small and growing markets in the Pacific Northwest that I think could really benefit from access to an Alaska Airlines with the national reach they have today more than they could have (or did) when Alaska was smaller and more regional.


It looks like AS was starting to use Penair in some of the smaller markets as feed into places like PDX.

http://www.opb.org/news/article/npr-pen ... st-cities/

That article is almost a year and a half old. Since that was published, it's proposed PDX-LMT start was delayed by the TSA (or rather lack of TSA) issue at LMT, which took a year to resolve. Meanwhile KS did open PDX-OTH/ACV/RDD, in addition to the existing PDX-CEC route. LMT did finally start just a couple of months ago.
The problem is the KS completion factor and on-time performance has dropped to an appalling level with that expansion. I'm near CEC, looking out the window at my neighbors. They are supposed to be in Hawai'i right now, but 3 days of cancellations has caused them to be unable to make the trip for their son's delayed wedding reception with the bride's family on Maui. Bummer!

So QX reintroducing smaller Dash's or something would have been a better option for the small markets.
Worked for WestAir, Apollo Airways, Desert Pacific, Western, AirCal and American Airlines (Retired). Flight Memory: 181 airports, 92 airlines, 78 a/c types, 403 routes, 58 countries (by air), 6 continents. 1,119,414 passenger miles.

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Chugach
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Re: Possible Horizon growth?

Thu Dec 15, 2016 11:37 pm

Word is that some of the intra-Alaska stuff will be taken over by the 175's operated by Horizon.
 
dc10lover
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Re: Possible Horizon growth?

Fri Dec 16, 2016 12:32 am

Remember AS wants to be California's "go to airline". Expect more routes inside the state of California.
Why endure the nightmare and congestion of LAX when BUR, LGB, ONT & SNA is so much easier to fly in and out of. Same with OAK & SJC when it comes to SFO.
 
Aliqiout
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Re: Possible Horizon growth?

Fri Dec 16, 2016 12:51 am

Chugach wrote:
Word is that some of the intra-Alaska stuff will be taken over by the 175's operated by Horizon.

Not to FAI I hope? The 175 is not certified to take off at temperatures below -40.
 
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Re: Possible Horizon growth?

Fri Dec 16, 2016 1:05 am

Aliqiout wrote:
Chugach wrote:
Word is that some of the intra-Alaska stuff will be taken over by the 175's operated by Horizon.

Not to FAI I hope? The 175 is not certified to take off at temperatures below -40.


It has only gotten that cold there a handful of times in the past two years, and that's the low for the day; most operations wouldn't be occurring at that time anyway.
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b6sea
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Re: Possible Horizon growth?

Fri Dec 16, 2016 1:15 am

The top thing on my airline wishlist is for QX to pick up smaller Dash-8s (or comparable aircraft) and serve smaller communities in the Northwest. Even though they already do this with the Q400s, I would love to see them pioneering new markets like Olympia, or Aberdeen, or Port Angeles (not all of them new markets for Horizon, I know) and trying things. I know that not every single town will have air service, but I would love to see someone try something outside the box in the Northwest for a period of time long enough for it to actually build a market.

Not that I don't recognize QX for what they already do, the fact that they're the only airline serving ALW, YKM, EAT is not lost on me.
 
Chugach
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Re: Possible Horizon growth?

Fri Dec 16, 2016 1:22 am

Aliqiout wrote:
Chugach wrote:
Word is that some of the intra-Alaska stuff will be taken over by the 175's operated by Horizon.

Not to FAI I hope? The 175 is not certified to take off at temperatures below -40.


Don't tell DL. They run the 175 up there every day in winter.
 
metaldirtnskin
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Re: Possible Horizon growth?

Fri Dec 16, 2016 2:47 am

dc10lover wrote:
Remember AS wants to be California's "go to airline". Expect more routes inside the state of California.


They've made it clear their growth is focused on California after the merger - the press release even explicitly says "Hubs in Seattle, Portland, Anchorage, San Francisco and Los Angeles." It's logical to assume they'll be adding other routes to those cities.

I'm biased but I would love to see them add EUG-SFO, preferably E175... right now all AS (QX) flights here are Q400, and UA is mainline (319 and 738) to SFO. EUG boardings for UA grew 22% year-on-year in October vs. 4% for QX - of course, a lot of UA's growth was the switch to mainline at lower frequency, but that at least shows there's the demand to support it.

There are probably other potential feeders (MFR perhaps?) where QX growth will fit well with the VX network. Seems possible AS will make some moves to keep their onboard product competitive (and meet the expectations of the VX target market) on the routes that feed SFO and/or LAX.
 
TUSDawg23
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Re: Possible Horizon growth?

Fri Dec 16, 2016 2:48 am

b6sea wrote:
The top thing on my airline wishlist is for QX to pick up smaller Dash-8s (or comparable aircraft) and serve smaller communities in the Northwest. Even though they already do this with the Q400s, I would love to see them pioneering new markets like Olympia, or Aberdeen, or Port Angeles (not all of them new markets for Horizon, I know) and trying things. I know that not every single town will have air service, but I would love to see someone try something outside the box in the Northwest for a period of time long enough for it to actually build a market.

Not that I don't recognize QX for what they already do, the fact that they're the only airline serving ALW, YKM, EAT is not lost on me.


I don't think QX will bother with these markets. There is no money to be made on these routes and QX has no desire to reintroduce a smaller aircraft to their fleet again. I don't see any cities in WA that are on the current list of eligible EAS destinations so that's off the table as well.
 
GabPtown
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Re: Possible Horizon growth?

Fri Dec 16, 2016 2:58 am

b6sea wrote:
The top thing on my airline wishlist is for QX to pick up smaller Dash-8s (or comparable aircraft) and serve smaller communities in the Northwest. Even though they already do this with the Q400s, I would love to see them pioneering new markets like Olympia, or Aberdeen, or Port Angeles (not all of them new markets for Horizon, I know) and trying things. I know that not every single town will have air service, but I would love to see someone try something outside the box in the Northwest for a period of time long enough for it to actually build a market.

Not that I don't recognize QX for what they already do, the fact that they're the only airline serving ALW, YKM, EAT is not lost on me.


I could see these cities served by Penair via their PDX hub...................
 
Chugach
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Re: Possible Horizon growth?

Fri Dec 16, 2016 3:21 am

b6sea wrote:
The top thing on my airline wishlist is for QX to pick up smaller Dash-8s (or comparable aircraft) and serve smaller communities in the Northwest. Even though they already do this with the Q400s, I would love to see them pioneering new markets like Olympia, or Aberdeen, or Port Angeles (not all of them new markets for Horizon, I know) and trying things. I know that not every single town will have air service, but I would love to see someone try something outside the box in the Northwest for a period of time long enough for it to actually build a market.

Not that I don't recognize QX for what they already do, the fact that they're the only airline serving ALW, YKM, EAT is not lost on me.


QX isn't going back to the Q200. Best bet for those smaller markets right now is KS.
 
PlanesNTrains
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Re: Possible Horizon growth?

Fri Dec 16, 2016 3:23 am

GabPtown wrote:
b6sea wrote:
The top thing on my airline wishlist is for QX to pick up smaller Dash-8s (or comparable aircraft) and serve smaller communities in the Northwest. Even though they already do this with the Q400s, I would love to see them pioneering new markets like Olympia, or Aberdeen, or Port Angeles (not all of them new markets for Horizon, I know) and trying things. I know that not every single town will have air service, but I would love to see someone try something outside the box in the Northwest for a period of time long enough for it to actually build a market.

Not that I don't recognize QX for what they already do, the fact that they're the only airline serving ALW, YKM, EAT is not lost on me.


I could see these cities served by Penair via their PDX hub...................


I struggle to see these markets really attracting much interest from QX. Port Angeles used to be a gateway to Canada back in the day but now I'm not sure if there's enough demand to open a station there for a Q. Aberdeen doesn't have a lot of money nor a very large "metro" population - they'd be better served with a bus connecting to Amtrak in Olympia/Lacey. Olympia seems like a weaker version of Salem, Oregon, and that has been a market that has struggled to attract service.

Trust me - I've long had a vision of a smaller regional airline serving many of these cities (though with a PDX hub and a DL feed agreement - yes, this idea goes back a ways haha) but I can't see how you make it work in today's world.
-Dave


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doug_or
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Re: Possible Horizon growth?

Fri Dec 16, 2016 3:35 am

The last scheduled CRJ flight was Nov 17th. They've subbed for broken 175s a few times, but they're gone now.

Gate space will remain tight out of LAX/SFO (and SEA for that matter), but OO has been using the 175s out of SNA, SAN, and SJC. I wouldn't be surprised to see more of that (I think SJC has the most viable capacity).

Who knows, maybe DAL? <runs for cover>
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b6sea
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Re: Possible Horizon growth?

Fri Dec 16, 2016 4:24 am

b6sea wrote:
The top thing on my airline wishlist is for QX to pick up smaller Dash-8s (or comparable aircraft) and serve smaller communities in the Northwest. Even though they already do this with the Q400s, I would love to see them pioneering new markets like Olympia, or Aberdeen, or Port Angeles (not all of them new markets for Horizon, I know) and trying things. I know that not every single town will have air service, but I would love to see someone try something outside the box in the Northwest for a period of time long enough for it to actually build a market.

Not that I don't recognize QX for what they already do, the fact that they're the only airline serving ALW, YKM, EAT is not lost on me.


I seem to have omitted that there's a huge emphasis on the WISH part of my wishlist. I must have edited it out before posting. Oops. Yeah, I know none of what I said is likely to happen, I've been watching the trend toward larger regional aircraft, same as everyone else. And I have a degree in economics, I understand why it's happening.

I will say that I think if we were talking about a Port Angeles, Olympia, or even Aberdeen in Illinois or North Carolina, or New York many people on this forum would be screaming at the top of their lungs about how crazy insane it is that there's no service. But, I've been here for 11 years, maybe I should start screaming louder.
 
b6sea
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Re: Possible Horizon growth?

Fri Dec 16, 2016 4:30 am

Double post, sorry.
 
dc10lover
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Re: Possible Horizon growth?

Fri Dec 16, 2016 5:13 am

EAT (Wenatchee, Washington) lost a Tuesday flight. Only 2 flights on Tuesday's. They want in their wish list service to SFO. But fares will be too expensive of course. $300 one way.
Why endure the nightmare and congestion of LAX when BUR, LGB, ONT & SNA is so much easier to fly in and out of. Same with OAK & SJC when it comes to SFO.
 
dc10lover
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Re: Possible Horizon growth?

Fri Dec 16, 2016 5:21 am

GabPtown wrote:
b6sea wrote:
The top thing on my airline wishlist is for QX to pick up smaller Dash-8s (or comparable aircraft) and serve smaller communities in the Northwest. Even though they already do this with the Q400s, I would love to see them pioneering new markets like Olympia, or Aberdeen, or Port Angeles (not all of them new markets for Horizon, I know) and trying things. I know that not every single town will have air service, but I would love to see someone try something outside the box in the Northwest for a period of time long enough for it to actually build a market.

Not that I don't recognize QX for what they already do, the fact that they're the only airline serving ALW, YKM, EAT is not lost on me.


I could see these cities served by Penair via their PDX hub...................

ALW, YKM & EAT are very thin markets to SEA. A 9 pax plane would work but no way a 30 - 36 pax plane would work to have service to PDX.
Why endure the nightmare and congestion of LAX when BUR, LGB, ONT & SNA is so much easier to fly in and out of. Same with OAK & SJC when it comes to SFO.
 
Aliqiout
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Re: Possible Horizon growth?

Fri Dec 16, 2016 5:24 am

[photoid]w[/photoid]
Chugach wrote:
Aliqiout wrote:
Chugach wrote:
Word is that some of the intra-Alaska stuff will be taken over by the 175's operated by Horizon.

Not to FAI I hope? The 175 is not certified to take off at temperatures below -40.


Don't tell DL. They run the 175 up there every day in winter.

They just started last winter (or the one before?) And FAI has had two record warm winters in a row. Normal winters have many operators canceling flights to places like YEG, YYC, and YXE when the for casts start getting very far into the -30s . If normal winters return DL will be cancelling weeks of flights or substituting mainline.
 
wedgetail737
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Re: Possible Horizon growth?

Fri Dec 16, 2016 5:36 am

On my QX wishlist:
1. Add new daily flight between SEA-MRY
2. Take the Q400's out of the larger city-pairs, namely OAK-PDX, and replace them with E-175's or 737's.
3. Change out a couple of STS flights to E-175's. We all know now STS can support mainline narrowbody aircraft.
4. Add QX flights throughout CA to SFO, SEA, LAX and/or PDX to places like SCK, CCR, BFL and maybe even TVL.
5. More intra-CA flights out of SFO or LAX to places like FAT, SMF, BFL, SBA, SBP and MRY. Some already exists.

I wouldn't mind seeing PenAir open up some city-pairs at SEA.
 
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RWA380
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Re: Possible Horizon growth?

Fri Dec 16, 2016 5:47 am

metaldirtnskin wrote:
They've made it clear their growth is focused on California after the merger - the press release even explicitly says "Hubs in Seattle, Portland, Anchorage, San Francisco and Los Angeles." It's logical to assume they'll be adding other routes to those cities.


You'll be surprised, look for growh at SMF, SAN, SNA & SJC. As has long realized the benefits of coverage in a market. So while AAG hubs are currently ANC, SEA, PDX, SFO & LAX. Cities like SAN, SJC, SNA & SMF are great cities to expand in, with the idea of mass coverage.

AAG will serve all 3 NYC airports, all 3 bay area airports, 4 of the five L.A. area airports, 2 in Dallas, 3 in Washington D.C. & I bet you'll see expansion from a myriad of West Coast destinations to the Miidwest & East Coast cities that have been targeted. PDX-JFK for example should come by next summer.

dc10lover wrote:
Remember AS wants to be California's "go to airline". Expect more routes inside the state of California.


Indeed the buyout of VX was to bring millions of travelers to the Alaska doorstep, but you can't make them fly. AS has a long term strategy that involves a huge footprint on the West Coast & an ever expanding presence in the remainder of the country, while a large target, California is only part of the vision, but a big part indeed.

doug_or wrote:
The last scheduled CRJ flight was Nov 17th. They've subbed for broken 175s a few times, but they're gone now.

Gate space will remain tight out of LAX/SFO (and SEA for that matter), but OO has been using the 175s out of SNA, SAN, and SJC. I wouldn't be surprised to see more of that (I think SJC has the most viable capacity).

Who knows, maybe DAL? <runs for cover>


Didn't know they were officially gone, I saw one Nov 13th when we arrived from Lihue in Portland, sad to know it'll be the last one I'll see in AS colors. But I like the 175, so not that broken up.

With the combined AS/VX, gate space can be orchestrated to maximize both AS & VX arrivals & departures. I bet we'll see gate utilization increase in these two cities as the combined carrier coordinates their schedules.

I'm firmly standing my ground here, I know AS will make the effort at DAL & does not wish to give up something that is hard to get & they WILL make a go of it there, with a slight change of cities served. IMHO SEA will have 2 x DAL & 2 x DFW, PDX 2 x DFW & 1 x DAL, AS will add SJC/SAN/SNA to DAL as well.

AAG is excited about the in perimeter slots they have acquired at LGA & DCA, they will make use of them. IMHO, if AS were to move these in perimeter slots to another city, I'd guess MSP over ORD, since AS & AA can't co-ordinate schedules on hub to hub routes. Or they could fly DCA-IAD-SEA or PDX-MSP-LGA for example.
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Chugach
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Re: Possible Horizon growth?

Fri Dec 16, 2016 6:12 am

Aliqiout wrote:
[photoid]w[/photoid]
Chugach wrote:
Aliqiout wrote:
Not to FAI I hope? The 175 is not certified to take off at temperatures below -40.


Don't tell DL. They run the 175 up there every day in winter.

They just started last winter (or the one before?) And FAI has had two record warm winters in a row. Normal winters have many operators canceling flights to places like YEG, YYC, and YXE when the for casts start getting very far into the -30s . If normal winters return DL will be cancelling weeks of flights or substituting mainline.


FAI was in the 30's below earlier this month with no apparent operations impact.

Regardless, I'd be surprised to see AS replace the Q on ANC-FAI. That plane was made for that type of route.
 
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Jamake1
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Re: Possible Horizon growth?

Fri Dec 16, 2016 6:18 am

wedgetail737 wrote:
On my QX wishlist:

4. Add QX flights throughout CA to SFO, SEA, LAX and/or PDX to places like SCK, CCR, BFL and maybe even TVL.
5. More intra-CA flights out of SFO or LAX to places like FAT, SMF, BFL, SBA, SBP and MRY. Some already exists.



Good call. What AS/QX pulled off at STS could be replicated in other California cities, especially places like CCR.
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PlanesNTrains
Posts: 9526
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Re: Possible Horizon growth?

Fri Dec 16, 2016 7:16 am

wedgetail737 wrote:
On my QX wishlist:
1. Add new daily flight between SEA-MRY
2. Take the Q400's out of the larger city-pairs, namely OAK-PDX, and replace them with E-175's or 737's.
3. Change out a couple of STS flights to E-175's. We all know now STS can support mainline narrowbody aircraft.
4. Add QX flights throughout CA to SFO, SEA, LAX and/or PDX to places like SCK, CCR, BFL and maybe even TVL.
5. More intra-CA flights out of SFO or LAX to places like FAT, SMF, BFL, SBA, SBP and MRY. Some already exists.

I wouldn't mind seeing PenAir open up some city-pairs at SEA.


1. Sounds good.
2. Sounds good, and probably the plan anyhow.
3. Sounds good, but wasn't there runway work needing to be done there, or did they complete it?
4. Uh, not so sure. CCR does not want commercial flights anymore and I believe lacks any sort of TSA presence. SCK and BFL - maybe, but the former is fairly close to SMF and the latter might not have the O&D. An earlier study showed that people in between BFL and FAT tended to leak to FAT, and those were the passengers most likely to fly to SEA. BFL was showing about 17 PDEW with another 25 PDEW leaking to other airports, the largest being the LA area ones. That study's a few years old so the numbers may be somewhat larger now, but unless there's a significant additional number of people who are traveling to other AS cities, I wonder if they'd be able to support the service? ExpressJet flew I believe BFL-SMF - maybe a tag is in order?
5. It's going to be a challenge to add too many flights out of SFO and LAX for a while, but I'd imagine they plan to in the mid-term.

I'm excited. :-)
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
Redsand187
Posts: 42
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Re: Possible Horizon growth?

Fri Dec 16, 2016 7:26 am

I just wish they'd do a YKM-PDX route. I've been on a few dumb YKM-SEA-PDX-Whereever flights... no thanks. One time was even a YKM-SEA-PDX-STS-LAS all on a q400, that was weird.
 
wedgetail737
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Re: Possible Horizon growth?

Fri Dec 16, 2016 3:12 pm

1. Sounds good.
2. Sounds good, and probably the plan anyhow.
3. Sounds good, but wasn't there runway work needing to be done there, or did they complete it?
4. Uh, not so sure. CCR does not want commercial flights anymore and I believe lacks any sort of TSA presence. SCK and BFL - maybe, but the former is fairly close to SMF and the latter might not have the O&D. An earlier study showed that people in between BFL and FAT tended to leak to FAT, and those were the passengers most likely to fly to SEA. BFL was showing about 17 PDEW with another 25 PDEW leaking to other airports, the largest being the LA area ones. That study's a few years old so the numbers may be somewhat larger now, but unless there's a significant additional number of people who are traveling to other AS cities, I wonder if they'd be able to support the service? ExpressJet flew I believe BFL-SMF - maybe a tag is in order?
5. It's going to be a challenge to add too many flights out of SFO and LAX for a while, but I'd imagine they plan to in the mid-term.

I'm excited. :-)[/quote]

I'm sure Buchanan Field itself and some business people wouldn't mind the restart of pax service, but the residents of Concord will have none of it. If Paine Field can happen, then CCR can happen.

One more thing...I wouldn't mind seeing more service out of ONT.
 
czek6
Posts: 180
Joined: Thu Sep 05, 2013 2:20 pm

Re: Possible Horizon growth?

Fri Dec 16, 2016 3:28 pm

In the DC area, AAG operatates:

DCA to LAX, SEA, SFO, DAL, PDX
IAD to LAX, SEA, SFO
BWI to LAX, SEA, SAN, CUN (apple contract) . (Anet rumored service expansion to PDX, and SFO)

If the additional service adds to go to BWI, would Alaska ever operate Horizon flights to connect smaller cities like Knoxville, Asheville, etc.

It could make a small focus city for them since Southwest doesnt operate small plans and it would completely derail Allegiant's mid-Atlantic plans.
 
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NameOmitted
Posts: 701
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Re: Possible Horizon growth?

Fri Dec 16, 2016 3:42 pm

czek6 wrote:
In the DC area, AAG operatates:

DCA to LAX, SEA, SFO, DAL, PDX
IAD to LAX, SEA, SFO
BWI to LAX, SEA, SAN, CUN (apple contract) . (Anet rumored service expansion to PDX, and SFO)

If the additional service adds to go to BWI, would Alaska ever operate Horizon flights to connect smaller cities like Knoxville, Asheville, etc.

It could make a small focus city for them since Southwest doesnt operate small plans and it would completely derail Allegiant's mid-Atlantic plans.


That would be a highly ambitious plan on top of managing the merger, don't you think?
 
czek6
Posts: 180
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Re: Possible Horizon growth?

Fri Dec 16, 2016 3:51 pm

NameOmitted wrote:
czek6 wrote:
In the DC area, AAG operatates:

DCA to LAX, SEA, SFO, DAL, PDX
IAD to LAX, SEA, SFO
BWI to LAX, SEA, SAN, CUN (apple contract) . (Anet rumored service expansion to PDX, and SFO)

If the additional service adds to go to BWI, would Alaska ever operate Horizon flights to connect smaller cities like Knoxville, Asheville, etc.

It could make a small focus city for them since Southwest doesnt operate small plans and it would completely derail Allegiant's mid-Atlantic plans.


That would be a highly ambitious plan on top of managing the merger, don't you think?



Not at all. The OP's topic was to discuss the future of Horizon post merger. Who says this have to be limited to the immediate transitional period?
 
flyfresno
Posts: 852
Joined: Tue May 02, 2006 6:18 am

Re: Possible Horizon growth?

Fri Dec 16, 2016 11:04 pm

News in BFL recently reported that SEA is the most likely new nonstop based on demand (a return of IAH nonwothstanding), but with FAT only supporting 2-3 flights per day (and some of those passengers representing places midway between the two), and with the E175 as the only real option, it seems like a bit of a pipe dream. As for expanding operations in SAN and SNA, I think a lot of it comes down to AS both adding and timing more connections. Retiming SAN flights from HNL, OGG, KOA, and EWR so connections could be made to BOI, FAT, MRY, SMF, STS, and SLC would certainly increase traffic on all of them, although I'm not sure how it would work for aircraft utilization. SNA is obviously a more difficult market to do this in, but there is probably enough O&D to add a few of the current SAN markets. LAX seems like a different animal since there is already a codeshare with AA there on many routes, and overlapping with AA on those routes would mean giving up that codeshare (at least that's how I interpreted the ruling). The question is, do the new VX LAX routes provide enough extra incentive for AS to add intra-California routes out of there that already exist on AA (and perhaps other carriers too)?
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 6038
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: Possible Horizon growth?

Fri Dec 16, 2016 11:50 pm

wedgetail737 wrote:
On my QX wishlist:

4. Add QX flights throughout CA to SFO, SEA, LAX and/or PDX to places like SCK, CCR, BFL and maybe even TVL.


Proximity to a big airport with lots of destinations, frequency, and multi-carrier price competition kills service to small airports. Not enough people will pay the price. US-101 and San Francisco city traffic suck so bad STS can work. Concord? Doubt it - OAK is relatively easy and even offers some public transit options.

Hate to be a buzzkill, but the U.S. trend for nearly two decades - accelerated by higher fuel prices and more recently regional pilot 'shortages' - is longer stage and bigger gauge. There are some geographic barriers that short regional flights can overcome - Golden Gate traffic, the distance between New Zealand's North and South islands - but the peak of <50 seat flying is in the past.
 
wedgetail737
Posts: 5008
Joined: Mon Aug 04, 2003 8:44 am

Re: Possible Horizon growth?

Sat Dec 17, 2016 1:12 am

MIflyer12 wrote:
wedgetail737 wrote:
On my QX wishlist:

4. Add QX flights throughout CA to SFO, SEA, LAX and/or PDX to places like SCK, CCR, BFL and maybe even TVL.


Proximity to a big airport with lots of destinations, frequency, and multi-carrier price competition kills service to small airports. Not enough people will pay the price. US-101 and San Francisco city traffic suck so bad STS can work. Concord? Doubt it - OAK is relatively easy and even offers some public transit options.

Hate to be a buzzkill, but the U.S. trend for nearly two decades - accelerated by higher fuel prices and more recently regional pilot 'shortages' - is longer stage and bigger gauge. There are some geographic barriers that short regional flights can overcome - Golden Gate traffic, the distance between New Zealand's North and South islands - but the peak of <50 seat flying is in the past.


Oh I realize the chances of CCR being an AS destination is most likely slim to none. I know that PSA/USAir did well on the CCR-LAX flights, and that was like 30 years ago with BAe-146's. Contra Costa County is much more populated now then back then.
 
ucdtim17
Posts: 566
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2016 6:38 pm

Re: Possible Horizon growth?

Sat Dec 17, 2016 3:45 am

wedgetail737 wrote:
2. Take the Q400's out of the larger city-pairs, namely OAK-PDX, and replace them with E-175's or 737's.


This seemed an obvious first use of Horizon E175s but there's still no sign of putting them on this route or any of the longer Q400 routes. They're putting E175s on longer midcon flights and also shorter intra-CA flights. The insistence on keeping Q400s on OAK/SMF-PDX is bizarre.
 
wedgetail737
Posts: 5008
Joined: Mon Aug 04, 2003 8:44 am

Re: Possible Horizon growth?

Sat Dec 17, 2016 5:33 am

This seemed an obvious first use of Horizon E175s but there's still no sign of putting them on this route or any of the longer Q400 routes. They're putting E175s on longer midcon flights and also shorter intra-CA flights. The insistence on keeping Q400s on OAK/SMF-PDX is bizarre.

Are the QX E-175's going to replace OO throughout Alaska's network? You could be right. I just would have thought the QX Q400's would be the aircraft choice to open smaller CA markets like SCK or increase frequency on some of the more traditional Q400 segments. Then they could use the E-175's on routes where the traveling public are more willing to pay for 1st class and a more comfortable ride...like SEA/LAX-STS or SEA-RNO. But I do definitely agree with you that they could used to fly intra-CA stuff like SJC-SoCal or additional destinations through FAT. I'm still holding out for SEA-MRY. I would like to think that if AS thinks SEA-SBP would work...,the same would hold true on the SEA-MRY route.
 
flyfresno
Posts: 852
Joined: Tue May 02, 2006 6:18 am

Re: Possible Horizon growth?

Sat Dec 17, 2016 9:04 pm

wedgetail737 wrote:
Are the QX E-175's going to replace OO throughout Alaska's network? You could be right. I just would have thought the QX Q400's would be the aircraft choice to open smaller CA markets like SCK or increase frequency on some of the more traditional Q400 segments.


I think AS likes the idea of having two carriers operating their express routes. As has been demonstrated many times with other airlines, relying too heavily on one express carrier can have pretty negative consequences both when it comes to negotiating contracts and when there is an operational hiccup at a sole regional. Giving Horizon the E175 probably signifies that AS would like to eventually operate all jet service (who knows what will happen to the thinner Q400 routes after that), and you will undoubtedly see the E replace the Q on routes like OAK, SMF, and RNO when the Q's start to retire. The current state of those routes might simply be a result of Alaska's desire to expand rather than replace existing routes and the resulting fleet deployment strategy.
 
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NameOmitted
Posts: 701
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Re: Possible Horizon growth?

Sun Dec 18, 2016 4:11 am

flyfresno wrote:
I think AS likes the idea of having two carriers operating their express routes.

Apropos of this, I have been wondering what the legal ramifications would be for Alaska (Horizon) to take over some of the SkyWest flights that are currently under contract to American.

This should not be the start of a roumer, I have no information and frankly don't think it likely, but if for some reason American was disinterested in some of the routes in California that they are contracting for American Eagle, could Horizon take over the contract and code-share with American with minimal discussion from the DOJ (assuming all of the parties to the contracts were in agreement in the first place)?
 
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m0ssy
Posts: 126
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Re: Possible Horizon growth?

Sun Dec 18, 2016 5:11 am

Wish there we more direct options from Southern Oregon to Northern California, like STS or ACV. I doubt it will ever happen, but it requires a minimum of 2 connections to accomplish this. Seems like Horizon is the most likely candidate for such a mission.
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