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readytotaxi
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Thomas Cook pilot wins fatigue tribunal case.

Fri Dec 16, 2016 9:12 am

I am suprised that TC even took this so far,stupid management.

http://atwonline.com/labor/thomas-cook- ... bunal-case

“Thomas Cook’s own fatigue monitoring software showed that because of the run of duties he had done, if he had flown his rostered flight he would have landed at the end of his duty with a predicted performance loss that would have been similar to being four times over the legal alcohol limit for flying,” BALPA said.

Lost for words.
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TC957
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Re: Thomas Cook pilot wins fatigue tribunal case.

Fri Dec 16, 2016 9:19 am

Good for him. As you say, stupid man-management that runs throughout the Thos Cook company, it's not just the airline.
 
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LionelHutz
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Re: Thomas Cook pilot wins fatigue tribunal case.

Fri Dec 16, 2016 10:19 am

“Safety is our highest priority at Thomas Cook. We have robust processes to ensure all the legal limits on flying time are met and we’d like to be clear that at no point was Captain Simkins expected to fly while fatigued..."
Well that's clearly an outright lie. PR Garbage. :roll:
 
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zkojq
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Re: Thomas Cook pilot wins fatigue tribunal case.

Fri Dec 16, 2016 10:19 am

This is excellent news. If anything bad had happened on landing at Manchester (from a small taxiway excursion to a full on crash) you can be sure that the airline would have hung him out to dry. I'm sure that every (competent) flight crew member knows that exactly the same could happen to them if they were in a similar situation. Regulators need to clamp down on operators that let this kind of thing happen, rather than having crew face the consequences.

Also it seems that Thomas Cook's bare-bones crewing didn't assist the situation. The report makes it pretty clear that the captain was doing being very pro-active and doing all he could to prevent an exceedance of FDP, from suggesting that he have a roster swap with someone less fatigued to proposing diversion ports that would have resulted in them landing within FDP rules.

It is pretty obvious that the dispatcher tampered with the original flight plan to make it fit within the FDP. Very fraudulent and exactly the thing that professional airlines would discourage.

Link to the full judgement:
http://www.balpa.org/About/Files/M-Simk ... gment.aspx
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stratocruiser
Posts: 300
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Re: Thomas Cook pilot wins fatigue tribunal case.

Fri Dec 16, 2016 12:10 pm

TC957 wrote:
Good for him. As you say, stupid man-management that runs throughout the Thos Cook company, it's not just the airline.


Stupid managers are everywhere today, not just airlines! In the past most managers would come from within an industry, working their way up and as a result having some inside knowledge of the business itself. Nowadays many managers have never worked in the industry they are managing and as a result have little insight into what is involved, but they are appointed because they have a degree in business management which makes them 'highly qualified', for the job. I found it interesting to find that business management courses put a lot of emphasis on the psychology of controlling the workforce and achieving or imposing change within an industry which could be rephrased as "getting your own way" and much of this psychology is not far removed from bullying. It is sad to see how much this is now also permeating the airline industry.
 
reltney
Posts: 512
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Re: Thomas Cook pilot wins fatigue tribunal case.

Fri Dec 16, 2016 1:37 pm

It's getting worse . FAR 117 time limits are biased and major fatigue issues are increasing in the US. The latest thing are the airlines requesting the FAA grant 9:45 flying time. Imagine 16 hours on duty flying 5 legs for a total of 9:45 of that is flying time on a snowy winter day.

You will see more results like TC .

Cheers
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b747400erf
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Re: Thomas Cook pilot wins fatigue tribunal case.

Fri Dec 16, 2016 9:02 pm

It was very stupid to fight this, for just a public relations standpoint, now people that read the news see your airline pushes pilots to the absolute max with no regard for safety, is that something you want out in the open? For good reason most lawsuits even if not legitimate are settled before going to trial.
 
TC957
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Re: Thomas Cook pilot wins fatigue tribunal case.

Fri Dec 16, 2016 10:24 pm

stratocruiser wrote:
TC957 wrote:
Good for him. As you say, stupid man-management that runs throughout the Thos Cook company, it's not just the airline.


Stupid managers are everywhere today, not just airlines! In the past most managers would come from within an industry, working their way up and as a result having some inside knowledge of the business itself. Nowadays many managers have never worked in the industry they are managing and as a result have little insight into what is involved, but they are appointed because they have a degree in business management which makes them 'highly qualified', for the job. I found it interesting to find that business management courses put a lot of emphasis on the psychology of controlling the workforce and achieving or imposing change within an industry which could be rephrased as "getting your own way" and much of this psychology is not far removed from bullying. It is sad to see how much this is now also permeating the airline industry.


I call this seagull management.
They zoom in from outside the area, make a lot of noise, crap on people, and when the scraps left are not worth fighting over, soon fly off somewhere else.
 
Dispatcher9999
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Re: Thomas Cook pilot wins fatigue tribunal case.

Mon Dec 19, 2016 1:10 am

zkojq wrote:
It is pretty obvious that the dispatcher tampered with the original flight plan to make it fit within the FDP. Very fraudulent and exactly the thing that professional airlines would discourage.

Link to the full judgement:
http://www.balpa.org/About/Files/M-Simk ... gment.aspx



I find this an absolutely ludicrous accusation and dam right disgusting statement, and it shows you clearly have no clue of dispatch. Although I have no idea about the crewing issue and he fatigue, and the resulting tribunal. I personally know the guys that work in this department and know that "tampering" with a flight plan would never happen. A plan between two points can have a lot of variances in it that would alter the flight time greatly, things like speeds, levels, routing etc etc and between two points, especially on something like a MAN-AYT two plans for the same flight can have up to 30-40 minutes difference in flight time. So running a plan at a higher speed, lower level and more direct, is not tampering with a plan at all and nothing fraudulent about it, and every airline in the world will do it if required to help with FDP, and I assure you TCX operate within the same parameters as every other "professional airline".
 
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zkojq
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Re: Thomas Cook pilot wins fatigue tribunal case.

Mon Dec 19, 2016 5:08 am

TC957 wrote:
I call this seagull management.
They zoom in from outside the area, make a lot of noise, crap on people, and when the scraps left are not worth fighting over, soon fly off somewhere else.


Well, in this case it seems that all the managers kept their jobs.

Dispatcher9999 wrote:
zkojq wrote:
It is pretty obvious that the dispatcher tampered with the original flight plan to make it fit within the FDP. Very fraudulent and exactly the thing that professional airlines would discourage.

Link to the full judgement:
http://www.balpa.org/About/Files/M-Simk ... gment.aspx



I find this an absolutely ludicrous accusation and dam right disgusting statement, and it shows you clearly have no clue of dispatch. Although I have no idea about the crewing issue and he fatigue, and the resulting tribunal. I personally know the guys that work in this department and know that "tampering" with a flight plan would never happen. A plan between two points can have a lot of variances in it that would alter the flight time greatly, things like speeds, levels, routing etc etc and between two points, especially on something like a MAN-AYT two plans for the same flight can have up to 30-40 minutes difference in flight time. So running a plan at a higher speed, lower level and more direct, is not tampering with a plan at all and nothing fraudulent about it, and every airline in the world will do it if required to help with FDP, and I assure you TCX operate within the same parameters as every other "professional airline".

And yet the airline still has refused to provide the actual flight plan to Mr Simkin or BALPA, despite repeated requests....Of course, given the way that other members of TCX have acted, it wouldn't surprise me if this flightplan never actually existed.

Also, I notice that this was your first post here? Might I assume that you have had some involvement in this incident? ;)
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Dispatcher9999
Posts: 46
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Re: Thomas Cook pilot wins fatigue tribunal case.

Mon Dec 19, 2016 1:59 pm

zkojq wrote:
TC957 wrote:
I call this seagull management.
They zoom in from outside the area, make a lot of noise, crap on people, and when the scraps left are not worth fighting over, soon fly off somewhere else.


Well, in this case it seems that all the managers kept their jobs.

Dispatcher9999 wrote:
zkojq wrote:
It is pretty obvious that the dispatcher tampered with the original flight plan to make it fit within the FDP. Very fraudulent and exactly the thing that professional airlines would discourage.

Link to the full judgement:
http://www.balpa.org/About/Files/M-Simk ... gment.aspx



I find this an absolutely ludicrous accusation and dam right disgusting statement, and it shows you clearly have no clue of dispatch. Although I have no idea about the crewing issue and he fatigue, and the resulting tribunal. I personally know the guys that work in this department and know that "tampering" with a flight plan would never happen. A plan between two points can have a lot of variances in it that would alter the flight time greatly, things like speeds, levels, routing etc etc and between two points, especially on something like a MAN-AYT two plans for the same flight can have up to 30-40 minutes difference in flight time. So running a plan at a higher speed, lower level and more direct, is not tampering with a plan at all and nothing fraudulent about it, and every airline in the world will do it if required to help with FDP, and I assure you TCX operate within the same parameters as every other "professional airline".

And yet the airline still has refused to provide the actual flight plan to Mr Simkin or BALPA, despite repeated requests....Of course, given the way that other members of TCX have acted, it wouldn't surprise me if this flightplan never actually existed.

Also, I notice that this was your first post here? Might I assume that you have had some involvement in this incident? ;)



Absolutely no involvement what so ever. Do you think I would be posting in a public forum if I was involved with the case? That would be almost as stupid as suggesting that a flight can depart without a legally filed flight plan, or that the flight was filed on one plan and the captain was given another plan =). Just wanted to join and defend two people who I know personally to be very professional workers who always work to a very high standard that you decided to accuse of fraudulent activities.

Let me ask, do you consider the likes of EK, BA, EZY, QR, BY, LS etc etc? Just wondering what you consider a professional airline.
 
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AirPacific747
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Re: Thomas Cook pilot wins fatigue tribunal case.

Mon Dec 19, 2016 2:47 pm

I'm very disappointed with TCX. They have (or used to have) a good reputation among pilots for good working conditions. Seems things a deteriorating rapidly these days. Not just with Thomas Cook but everywhere in aviation.
 
APYu
Posts: 490
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2007 10:23 pm

Re: Thomas Cook pilot wins fatigue tribunal case.

Mon Dec 19, 2016 2:56 pm

A friend of mine is cabin crew for Thomas Cook. He was once rostered a long duty - Caribbean - LGW - MAN. The rostered duty was not within his allowed limits so he rang and questioned it. The response was that they amended the timings of the LGW stop - so on his roster the flight was arriving at LGW and then departing for Manchester at the same time. Apparently they were just going to kick the LGW pax off on the runway in the middle of a touch and go.
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Luftymatt
Posts: 518
Joined: Sun Jan 25, 2009 7:27 pm

Re: Thomas Cook pilot wins fatigue tribunal case.

Mon Dec 19, 2016 7:52 pm

The problem is the EASA rules which cover airlines backsides in Europe, should they want to push their pilots to those limits. They urgently need reviewing!
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canadianpylon
Posts: 363
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Re: Thomas Cook pilot wins fatigue tribunal case.

Mon Dec 19, 2016 8:36 pm

LionelHutz wrote:
“Safety is our highest priority at Thomas Cook. We have robust processes to ensure all the legal limits on flying time are met and we’d like to be clear that at no point was Captain Simkins expected to fly while fatigued..."
Well that's clearly an outright lie. PR Garbage. :roll:


To say anything otherwise would be an admission of guilt and culpability.
Always looking for the longest route with the most transfers.
 
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zkojq
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Re: Thomas Cook pilot wins fatigue tribunal case.

Tue Dec 27, 2016 10:46 am

Dispatcher9999 wrote:
Just wanted to join and defend two people who I know personally to be very professional workers who always work to a very high standard that you decided to accuse of fraudulent activities.

Fair enough reason for joining, but why didn't they provide the flightplan on the multiple opportunities it was requested? The evidence certainly isn't in their favor and suggests very strongly that they did do something highly questionable.

Dispatcher9999 wrote:
Let me ask, do you consider the likes of EK, BA, EZY, QR, BY, LS etc etc? Just wondering what you consider a professional airline.

Consider them what?

APYu wrote:
A friend of mine is cabin crew for Thomas Cook. He was once rostered a long duty - Caribbean - LGW - MAN. The rostered duty was not within his allowed limits so he rang and questioned it. The response was that they amended the timings of the LGW stop - so on his roster the flight was arriving at LGW and then departing for Manchester at the same time. Apparently they were just going to kick the LGW pax off on the runway in the middle of a touch and go.

Was there any follow up for this? Seems very similar to what the dispatcher may have done for the return leg in this case. Very unprofessional of the airline.
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32andBelow
Posts: 4112
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 2:54 am

Re: Thomas Cook pilot wins fatigue tribunal case.

Tue Dec 27, 2016 6:26 pm

reltney wrote:
It's getting worse . FAR 117 time limits are biased and major fatigue issues are increasing in the US. The latest thing are the airlines requesting the FAA grant 9:45 flying time. Imagine 16 hours on duty flying 5 legs for a total of 9:45 of that is flying time on a snowy winter day.

You will see more results like TC .

Cheers

Under FAR 117 the longest duty day you can have under 5 legs is 12.5 hours if you had started between 0700 and 1259. Other times of the day it is even less. Allowing 9:45 for 1-2 legs totally different and not comparable.

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