Norwegian to become 1st 737 MAX operator?

KarelXWB · Fri Dec 16, 2016 2:57 pm

It appears Norwegian will receive its 1st 737 MAX in May 2017, ahead of Southwest's first delivery in June 2017.

Norwegian Air expects the tickets to fly from the new bases to go on sale early next year, with flights starting in June or July. The airline’s first two 737 Max planes are due in May, with four more to follow in June. Airline Chief Executive Bjørn Kjos has previously said U.S. approval of more flights rights could spur the carrier to buy more planes.

Source
http://www.wsj.com/articles/norwegian-a ... 1480943867

theSFOspotter · Fri Dec 16, 2016 3:35 pm

I doubt it...at RNT theres 5 or 6 SWA 737MAX frames sitting awaiting engines and testing, didn't see a single DY frame there except a 737-800CEO

KarelXWB · Fri Dec 16, 2016 3:36 pm

Maybe Norwegian will take some of the early production frames?

SWADawg · Fri Dec 16, 2016 3:41 pm

No. WN will still be the official MAX launch customer. First delivery will probably be in May with first flights to commence around September. DY may be the first to operate the MAX in revenue service, but WN will still be considered the launch customer based on when orders were placed and initial deliveries taken.

Polot · Fri Dec 16, 2016 3:41 pm

theSFOspotter wrote:
I doubt it...at RNT theres 5 or 6 SWA 737MAX frames sitting awaiting engines and testing, didn't see a single DY frame there except a 737-800CEO

That is assuming those will be the first planes delivered.

SWADawg wrote:
First delivery will probably be in May with first flights to commence around September.

It will take 3 months for WN to put it in service? Did the issues with the pilots delay things that much or something?

Mortyman · Fri Dec 16, 2016 3:43 pm

From what I understand, Norwegian will be the first Boeing 737 Max operator in EUROPE. That is atleast what they have said before.

KarelXWB · Fri Dec 16, 2016 3:44 pm

Polot wrote:
theSFOspotter wrote:
I doubt it...at RNT theres 5 or 6 SWA 737MAX frames sitting awaiting engines and testing, didn't see a single DY frame there except a 737-800CEO

That is assuming those will be the first planes delivered.

Why else would Boeing have already produced those planes?

The production list doesn't show any aircraft allocated to Norwegian. Strange?

https://www.planespotters.net/productio ... /737-MAX-8

KarelXWB · Fri Dec 16, 2016 3:49 pm

Mortyman wrote:
From what I understand, Norwegian will be the first Boeing 737 Max operator in EUROPE. That is atleast what they have said before.

Maybe, but Southwest (the launch customer) first MAX isn't due until June 2017. So if Norwegian receives its first airplane in May, it may become the initial operator worldwide.

Polot · Fri Dec 16, 2016 3:50 pm

KarelXWB wrote:
Polot wrote:
theSFOspotter wrote:
I doubt it...at RNT theres 5 or 6 SWA 737MAX frames sitting awaiting engines and testing, didn't see a single DY frame there except a 737-800CEO

That is assuming those will be the first planes delivered.

Why else would Boeing have already produced those planes?

To have a backlog of aircraft ready for quick delivery. But nothing stops Boeing from rolling an aircraft off the line at the end of April/beginning of May or whenever and delivering that one first over the currently parked aircraft.

SWADawg · Fri Dec 16, 2016 4:06 pm

SWADawg wrote:
First delivery will probably be in May with first flights to commence around September.

It will take 3 months for WN to put it in service? Did the issues with the pilots delay things that much or something?[/quote]

It's not unusual for an Airline like WN to take their time when introducing a new Aircraft. The main issue that complicates when WN can operate the MAX is the fact that WN still will be operating the Classics until September 2017 and the FAA will not allow WN Pilots to operate all 3 generations at the same time, thus the time delay from first delivery to first commercial flight.

JetBuddy · Fri Dec 16, 2016 4:49 pm

Doesn't the 737 type rating cover everything from the Jurassic, through Classics, Next Generation and MAX? Have the FAA set a limit saying 737 type rated pilots can only fly two subsequent generations at the same time?

SWADawg · Fri Dec 16, 2016 5:46 pm

JetBuddy wrote:
Doesn't the 737 type rating cover everything from the Jurassic, through Classics, Next Generation and MAX? Have the FAA set a limit saying 737 type rated pilots can only fly two subsequent generations at the same time?

Yes. This time the FAA said you can operate the Classics and NG's or the NG's and MAX's together, but not all 3 types at once. The only way to allow the Classics to continue to operate was to have a subgroup of pilots that only would fly the Classics and the Company decided not to do that.

Whiteguy · Fri Dec 16, 2016 6:32 pm

Westjet is not far behind as well, heard May for the first one.....

737max8 · Fri Dec 16, 2016 6:47 pm

SWADawg wrote:
First delivery will probably be in May with first flights to commence around September.

I'm not going to say anything other than this is wrong.

KarelXWB wrote:
Mortyman wrote:
From what I understand, Norwegian will be the first Boeing 737 Max operator in EUROPE. That is atleast what they have said before.

Maybe, but Southwest (the launch customer) first MAX isn't due until June 2017. So if Norwegian receives its first airplane in May, it may become the initial operator worldwide.

This is also false information. Southwest has not released anything regarding the MAX timeline as far as I am aware.

KarelXWB · Fri Dec 16, 2016 8:04 pm

737max8 wrote:
This is also false information. Southwest has not released anything regarding the MAX timeline as far as I am aware.

Boeing did and said Southwest would receive its first 737 MAX in June 2017.

737max8 · Sun Dec 18, 2016 3:07 am

KarelXWB wrote:
737max8 wrote:
This is also false information. Southwest has not released anything regarding the MAX timeline as far as I am aware.

Boeing did and said Southwest would receive its first 737 MAX in June 2017.

If they did, it's old news. This is wrong information.

LY777 · Sun Dec 18, 2016 6:59 am

Finally, given the small number of A320NEOs in service, the 737Max will not be so late compared to the A320Neo

chiad · Sun Dec 18, 2016 11:59 am

LY777 wrote:
Finally, given the small number of A320NEOs in service, the 737Max will not be so late compared to the A320Neo

It takes time to ramp-up production of a new type. It will for the Max as well, without any unforseens that might come.
Now the NEO production is about 1 frame delivered per day. This will of course increase more towards the Max' EIS and hit two per day in 2018.
I predict that the Max production wil reach 2 per day in 2020 or so.
(I think) in the end both frames will top out at 63 frames per month. I read somewhere that Airbus plan even higher for the NEO. Maybe someone here has more precise update on this NEO/Max planned production matter?

KarelXWB · Thu Jan 26, 2017 7:18 pm

SWADawg wrote:
No. WN will still be the official MAX launch customer. First delivery will probably be in May with first flights to commence around September. DY may be the first to operate the MAX in revenue service, but WN will still be considered the launch customer based on when orders were placed and initial deliveries taken.

Doesn't look like it. From today's earnings call:

Southwest's first 737 MAX 8 is scheduled to arrive in July & be placed into rev service Oct. 1. Southwest is the 737 MAX 8 launch customer.

https://twitter.com/airkarp/status/824658087831359489

So yes WN remains the launch customer, but Norwegian will be the first airline to put the 737 MAX into service (first delivery scheduled for May).

Mortyman · Fri Jan 27, 2017 9:49 am

Norwegian will be first in MAy:

http://money.cnn.com/2017/01/26/news/co ... t-737-max/

Faro · Fri Jan 27, 2017 10:55 am

KarelXWB wrote:
So yes WN remains the launch customer, but Norwegian will be the first airline to put the 737 MAX into service (first delivery scheduled for May).

Interesting use of the term "launch customer"...words, words, words...

Faro

Mortyman · Fri Jan 27, 2017 11:27 am

Norwegian leapfrogs Southwest as first 737 Max operator

Norwegian Air Shuttle said that it will be the first to take delivery of Boeing's new 737 Max airliner, jumping ahead of Southwest Airlines, the carrier confirmed Thursday.

"Norwegian will now be the first airline to take delivery of the Boeing (BA) 737 Max and we will be the first airline in the world to operate this brand-new aircraft type," an airline spokesman said in an email.

http://money.cnn.com/2017/01/26/news/co ... t-737-max/

trijetsonly · Fri Jan 27, 2017 1:20 pm

Mortyman wrote:
Norwegian leapfrogs Southwest as first 737 Max operator

Norwegian Air Shuttle said that it will be the first to take delivery of Boeing's new 737 Max airliner, jumping ahead of Southwest Airlines, the carrier confirmed Thursday.

"Norwegian will now be the first airline to take delivery of the Boeing (BA) 737 Max and we will be the first airline in the world to operate this brand-new aircraft type," an airline spokesman said in an email.

http://money.cnn.com/2017/01/26/news/co ... t-737-max/

That'll drive the SWA-fanbase damn crazy :lol:

Natflyer · Fri Jan 27, 2017 1:34 pm

Mortyman wrote:
Norwegian leapfrogs Southwest as first 737 Max operator

Norwegian Air Shuttle said that it will be the first to take delivery of Boeing's new 737 Max airliner, jumping ahead of Southwest Airlines, the carrier confirmed Thursday.

"Norwegian will now be the first airline to take delivery of the Boeing (BA) 737 Max and we will be the first airline in the world to operate this brand-new aircraft type," an airline spokesman said in an email.

http://money.cnn.com/2017/01/26/news/co ... t-737-max/

"Brand-new aircraft type". Rrrrright. Meaning once more warmed over?

FlyUSAir · Fri Jan 27, 2017 1:59 pm

SWADawg wrote:
JetBuddy wrote:
Doesn't the 737 type rating cover everything from the Jurassic, through Classics, Next Generation and MAX? Have the FAA set a limit saying 737 type rated pilots can only fly two subsequent generations at the same time?

Yes. This time the FAA said you can operate the Classics and NG's or the NG's and MAX's together, but not all 3 types at once. The only way to allow the Classics to continue to operate was to have a subgroup of pilots that only would fly the Classics and the Company decided not to do that.

Help me out here, what's the issue with operating the Classic, NG, and MAX at the same time with one pilot group?

VC10er · Fri Jan 27, 2017 2:10 pm

Slightly off topic: what does "CEO" stand for? I get "NEO" and "NG" and most other suffixes, but I can't figure out CEO.

Thanks

hibtastic · Fri Jan 27, 2017 2:15 pm

VC10er wrote:
Slightly off topic: what does "CEO" stand for? I get "NEO" and "NG" and most other suffixes, but I can't figure out CEO.

Thanks

Current Engine Option I think.

Polot · Fri Jan 27, 2017 2:16 pm

FlyUSAir wrote:
Help me out here, what's the issue with operating the Classic, NG, and MAX at the same time with one pilot group?

The FAA is not comfortable with it. Obviously they feel like there are too many differences between the three to have a single pilot regularly operating all three safely, so they are only allowing the pilots to operate two (Classic + NG, or NG + MAX).

VC10er wrote:
Slightly off topic: what does "CEO" stand for? I get "NEO" and "NG" and most other suffixes, but I can't figure out CEO.

Thanks

Current Engine Option. From back before the NEO actually existed and was in service and the old engines were the "current" engines for the A320.

benbeny · Fri Jan 27, 2017 2:23 pm

CEO: Current Engine Option
Well, I think it is related to steam gauges and LCD are very different, not to mention vastly different speed, handling and quirks for specific types and procedures...

Bricktop · Fri Jan 27, 2017 4:17 pm

VC10er wrote:
Slightly off topic: what does "CEO" stand for? I get "NEO" and "NG" and most other suffixes, but I can't figure out CEO.

Thanks

Before the usual suspects chime in, let me steal their thunder by saying it's "ceo" and "neo" in lower case. As if anyone truly gives a feces.

lesfalls · Fri Jan 27, 2017 6:07 pm

Polot wrote:
lesfalls wrote:
Polot wrote:
I know you are being tongue in cheek (or at least I hope you are), but FAA approval is not necessary for DY to fly the 738MAX. They have an extensive intra-European network that the 738MAX can fly without any worries about the FAA.

If the FAA can fly without any worries about the FAA how come is DY stating that they are being delayed because of the FAA? I'm confused

DY is talking about possibly having to delay SWF service with the 738MAX, not 738MAX operations in general. DY needs to get full FAA permissions/approvals necessary to fly to the US (this is not unique to DY, just the amount the DOT/FAA has been dragging its feet on granting the necessary approvals), but obviously has long as DY/the 737MAX has all the necessary requirements/certifications from the European authorities DY can fly the plane wherever they want within the EU. The FAA has no jurisdiction there.

Ah I see. Thank you but Norwegian doesn't want to use them in EU.

Polot · Fri Jan 27, 2017 6:17 pm

lesfalls wrote:
Ah I see. Thank you but Norwegian doesn't want to use them in EU.

Maybe not initially, but with just over a hundred on order the MAXs will eventually be flying plenty of EU trips.

lesfalls · Fri Jan 27, 2017 6:27 pm

Polot wrote:
lesfalls wrote:
Ah I see. Thank you but Norwegian doesn't want to use them in EU.

Maybe not initially, but with just over a hundred on order the MAXs will eventually be flying plenty of EU trips.

AH Good point. Didn't think of that.

Revelation · Fri Jan 27, 2017 6:35 pm

Natflyer wrote:
"Brand-new aircraft type". Rrrrright. Meaning once more warmed over?

Come now, can we let that narrative drop? The FAA considers them different enough call them different aircraft types, as we read here. MAX is a new aircraft type, just like A320neo, A330neo, 777X, etc.

zkncj · Fri Jan 27, 2017 6:37 pm

SWADawg wrote:
No. WN will still be the official MAX launch customer. First delivery will probably be in May with first flights to commence around September. DY may be the first to operate the MAX in revenue service, but WN will still be considered the launch customer based on when orders were placed and initial deliveries taken.

Same thing happened with the 789, NH operated there a couple of days earlier on media domestic flight. While NZ was the launch customer and still got all the attention as being the launch customer when the 789 made its first AKL-SYD NZ101 service.

FlyUSAir · Sat Jan 28, 2017 1:28 am

Polot wrote:
FlyUSAir wrote:
Help me out here, what's the issue with operating the Classic, NG, and MAX at the same time with one pilot group?

The FAA is not comfortable with it. Obviously they feel like there are too many differences between the three to have a single pilot regularly operating all three safely, so they are only allowing the pilots to operate two (Classic + NG, or NG + MAX).
VC10er wrote:
Slightly off topic: what does "CEO" stand for? I get "NEO" and "NG" and most other suffixes, but I can't figure out CEO.

Thanks

Current Engine Option. From back before the NEO actually existed and was in service and the old engines were the "current" engines for the A320.

Thank you! Was curious about that.

7BOEING7 · Sun Jan 29, 2017 7:55 am

FlyUSAir wrote:
SWADawg wrote:
JetBuddy wrote:
Doesn't the 737 type rating cover everything from the Jurassic, through Classics, Next Generation and MAX? Have the FAA set a limit saying 737 type rated pilots can only fly two subsequent generations at the same time?

Yes. This time the FAA said you can operate the Classics and NG's or the NG's and MAX's together, but not all 3 types at once. The only way to allow the Classics to continue to operate was to have a subgroup of pilots that only would fly the Classics and the Company decided not to do that.

Help me out here, what's the issue with operating the Classic, NG, and MAX at the same time with one pilot group?

The Classic's all had "steam gauges" -- mechanical ADI (Atitude Director Indicator), HSI (Horizontal Situation Indicator), etc. The NG has the square Inboard and Outboard Display units which at Southwest's request mimicked (EFIS/MAP) the mechanical gauges they had on the Classics. Later these displays, which are similar to those on the 777 (PFD/ND), were "repined" to look like the 777 on most other NG airplanes (Hapag Lloyd was another that mimicked mechanical gauges for similarity purposes). Classics were upgraded to look similar to the repined NG displays with 787 rectangular displays.

So you have Classics with 2 787 size displays with NG type information, NG's with 5 square displays with 777 type information and Max's with 4 787 size displays and type information.

Did I confuse you?

737-300 Original
https://flyawaysimulation.com/images/do ... analog.jpg
http://www.boeing.com/commercial/aeroma ... 02txt.html

737-300 Upgrade
http://mms.businesswire.com/bwapps/medi ... 5815&vid=5

737-700 (EFIS/MAP)
http://www.metzair.com/flightsim/downlo ... tstyle.pdf

737-700 (PFD/ND)
http://i.ytimg.com/vi/JZtm0oApflg/maxresdefault.jpg

737MAX
http://www.boeing.com/commercial/737max ... plays.page

JetBuddy · Sun Jan 29, 2017 6:24 pm

7BOEING7 wrote:
FlyUSAir wrote:
SWADawg wrote:
Yes. This time the FAA said you can operate the Classics and NG's or the NG's and MAX's together, but not all 3 types at once. The only way to allow the Classics to continue to operate was to have a subgroup of pilots that only would fly the Classics and the Company decided not to do that.

Help me out here, what's the issue with operating the Classic, NG, and MAX at the same time with one pilot group?

The Classic's all had "steam gauges" -- mechanical ADI (Atitude Director Indicator), HSI (Horizontal Situation Indicator), etc. The NG has the square Inboard and Outboard Display units which at Southwest's request mimicked (EFIS/MAP) the mechanical gauges they had on the Classics. Later these displays, which are similar to those on the 777 (PFD/ND), were "repined" to look like the 777 on most other NG airplanes (Hapag Lloyd was another that mimicked mechanical gauges for similarity purposes). Classics were upgraded to look similar to the repined NG displays with 787 rectangular displays.

So you have Classics with 2 787 size displays with NG type information, NG's with 5 square displays with 777 type information and Max's with 4 787 size displays and type information.

Did I confuse you?

I'm liking the layout and look of the new 737MAX cockpit, it makes the A320neo series cockpit look outdated in comparison. On the other hand, the A320neo flight deck is more spacious and quiet, and has full commonality with previous types. It makes me wonder how much Airbus could have changed the neo-flight deck without ruining the commonality. But that's a digression.

RobK · Sun Jan 29, 2017 6:38 pm

theSFOspotter wrote:
I doubt it...at RNT theres 5 or 6 SWA 737MAX frames sitting awaiting engines and testing, didn't see a single DY frame there except a 737-800CEO

Not been built yet. First Norwegian one is ln 6360.

YYZatcboy · Sun Jan 29, 2017 6:48 pm

Whiteguy wrote:
Westjet is not far behind as well, heard May for the first one.....

This is also what I heard. WS will be the first in North America.

lightsaber · Mon Jan 30, 2017 2:17 pm

Wow... Launch customer is WN.
Launch operator Norwegian. By months!

Westjet for the Americas... Eh...

What is big news is the timely EIS for the MAX. I'm very curious as to the production ramp. Boeing/CFM must switch over early as there is a shortage of CFM-56 orders (includes A320CEO family too).

I see DY holding up delivery for FAA approval. While they could operate European routes, this will expidite FAA approval.

I wonder when MAX production will be 1 per workday? I expect by mid 2018.

Lightsaber

benbeny · Sat Feb 04, 2017 3:44 pm

By the way, when will 737NG production ends based on current order, and have they closed the order book?

KarelXWB · Tue Mar 21, 2017 8:57 am

Unfortunately for Norwegian, Malindo Air is set to become the launch operator:

Malindo Air named as 737 Max launch operator

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