zionite
Topic Author
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Airbus Delivery - Why Toulouse & Hamburg?

Mon Dec 19, 2016 6:53 am

Maybe a dumb question...

Why does Airbus have different delivery centers in Hamburg (customers in Europe & Middle East) and Toulouse (customers in rest of the world)?

Why not only 1 center in Europe, 1 in Tianjin and 1 in Mobile? Or delivery from site it was made?

Any specific reason? Taxes, Language & Culture, Paperwork?
 
PanHAM
Posts: 9731
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Re: Airbus Delivery - Why Toulouse & Hamburg?

Mon Dec 19, 2016 6:58 am

They have 2 final assembly lines in Europe, one in Toulouse and one in Hamburg, for the 320 series. Makes sense to deliver aircraft where they are build. The exception is the A380 and here it is a political case.Still each 380 aircraft that has been built has to go through XFW where the paint shop is.
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
77H
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Re: Airbus Delivery - Why Toulouse & Hamburg?

Mon Dec 19, 2016 8:11 am

zionite wrote:
Maybe a dumb question...

Why does Airbus have different delivery centers in Hamburg (customers in Europe & Middle East) and Toulouse (customers in rest of the world)?

Why not only 1 center in Europe, 1 in Tianjin and 1 in Mobile? Or delivery from site it was made?

Any specific reason? Taxes, Language & Culture, Paperwork?


My uneducated guess would be that neither airport has the ability to absorb the totality of the Airbus operation. In Washington State, Boeing builds aircraft at Paine Field in Everett, Renton field with another operation at Boeing Field. There is also now Charleston.
 
mxaxai
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Re: Airbus Delivery - Why Toulouse & Hamburg?

Mon Dec 19, 2016 8:18 am

The runway at XFW was until recently quite short. Therefore, deliveries to far away airlines needed to stop somewhere. So it was decided that such deliveries would take place in TLS, where the runway is sufficiently long.
 
SCQ83
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Re: Airbus Delivery - Why Toulouse & Hamburg?

Mon Dec 19, 2016 8:30 am

It is probably politics. Airbus production is split a bit over Europe (e.g. there is a production site in Seville, Spain) and being France and Germany the two largest countries in Airbus, both of them would want a factory.
 
AirbusOnly
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Re: Airbus Delivery - Why Toulouse & Hamburg?

Mon Dec 19, 2016 8:45 am

mxaxai wrote:
The runway at XFW was until recently quite short. Therefore, deliveries to far away airlines needed to stop somewhere. So it was decided that such deliveries would take place in TLS, where the runway is sufficiently long.


The airfield Hamburg-Finkenwerder is the site of the first flight of all Airbus A318, A319, A321 as well as a part of the A320, which are finished in Hamburg and delivered to customers. Airbus A380 aircraft fly since 2007 the airfield for the purpose of interior design, painting and delivery. The runway is 3183 m × 45 m, so it enables even delivery flights of the A 380 f.e. to Dubai or Bangkok.
 
mxaxai
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Re: Airbus Delivery - Why Toulouse & Hamburg?

Mon Dec 19, 2016 10:17 am

That is true today. Historically however, in 1967 its length was a mere 1360 m and until 2006 remained at 2684 m.
 
sciing
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Re: Airbus Delivery - Why Toulouse & Hamburg?

Mon Dec 19, 2016 10:21 am

zionite wrote:
Or delivery from site it was made?

This is exactly the case. From the over 600 deliveries this year, there were only a few exeption.
Some A380s, the ones for BA and QR were delivered from TLS. OZ got its from XFW for the 1st time. EK and EY got theirs from XFW as usuall.
As you maybe know the outfitting and painting of the A380s is done in XFW. Body joint, engine attach and so on is done in TLS. As the work is shared between the sites, also the delivery had to be shared. Pure politics, the runway argument is nonsense as you can see for BA.
BTW: The 1st CZ A320neo was delivered from XFW, despite being build in TLS. But after outfitting (formerly always done in XFW) and a longer series of testflights it was not transferred back as usuall. TLS frame are still going to XFW for the cabin, but this is changing. There are already a bunch of A320 completly build in TLS.
 
Kilopond
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Re: Airbus Delivery - Why Toulouse & Hamburg?

Mon Dec 19, 2016 10:35 am

Just an anecdotal observation: both an A320CEO and a -NEO were delivered to the ANA corporation on DEC16.

The NEO was delivered from Hamburg and took the more direct way via Siberia: XFW-OVB-HND as flight NH9398.

But the CEO was delivered from Toulouse and took the very long way via the Middle East and Thailand: TLS-RKT-UTP-NRT, flight VNL11VA

(These delivery flights are covered by FR24 and at least partially by flightaware.)
 
PanHAM
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Re: Airbus Delivery - Why Toulouse & Hamburg?

Mon Dec 19, 2016 11:11 am

mxaxai wrote:
That is true today. Historically however, in 1967 its length was a mere 1360 m and until 2006 remained at 2684 m.

Which was OK in 1967 to accommodate a CV990. . 2684meters was enough until the 380 came along, the lenght is suitable for the 380 on delivery flights.
Suggest to check Renton Municipal where all 737 make their first flights.....
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
mxaxai
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Re: Airbus Delivery - Why Toulouse & Hamburg?

Mon Dec 19, 2016 11:22 am

Well, I suppose I had assumed/remembered wrongly.

Anyway, since A380 production seems likely to end by the next decade this discussion's point will become moot. Perhaps the free space will be used for a second A350/A330Neo FAL or outfitting, though.
 
WIederling
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Re: Airbus Delivery - Why Toulouse & Hamburg?

Mon Dec 19, 2016 11:40 am

PanHAM wrote:
mxaxai wrote:
That is true today. Historically however, in 1967 its length was a mere 1360 m and until 2006 remained at 2684 m.

Which was OK in 1967 to accommodate a CV990. . 2684meters was enough until the 380 came along, the lenght is suitable for the 380 on delivery flights.


The SpanTax boss landing in FXW was quite the hoot at the time.
https://www.google.de/search?q=spantax+ ... nkenwerder

At the time the runway was extended with an eye to the A380F requirements. Lots of contention from people living there ( and egged on by lawyers seemingly financed by French Airbus elements :-)
There is a rising population component that staunchly belives that well paid jobs are created by saving amphibians and building bridges for wildlife.
Murphy is an optimist
 
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Clipper101
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Re: Airbus Delivery - Why Toulouse & Hamburg?

Mon Dec 19, 2016 12:52 pm

As I once understood it, the cost of an aircraft is transferred from Airbus customers to the banks in the country where their aircraft delivery is taking place (if the transfer of title happens in TLS then the money goes to French banks, if it happens in HAM then the money goes to German banks). Since both France & Germany have equal shares in Airbus and the largest, then they would share as much as possible of that financial/economical benefit.
 
PanHAM
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Re: Airbus Delivery - Why Toulouse & Hamburg?

Mon Dec 19, 2016 12:58 pm

The Export declaration, which is mainly for statistic purposes, splits that up. Not an easy Task because there are myriads of parts in one aircraft which are all coming from many countries. But in the days of IT a doable Task.
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
queb
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Re: Airbus Delivery - Why Toulouse & Hamburg?

Mon Dec 19, 2016 1:02 pm

The country where planes are delivered from can also add the value of these airplanes to his exportation balance,
 
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Clipper101
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Re: Airbus Delivery - Why Toulouse & Hamburg?

Mon Dec 19, 2016 1:42 pm

In a program where a huge global network of suppliers is involved there should be a lot of accounting taking place, however the added value always happen to lay in the final product. After financial burden between suppliers is distributed and have been accounted for, there remain the added value of a product which should be residing in the banks where the cost of the product has been deposited.
 
PanHAM
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Re: Airbus Delivery - Why Toulouse & Hamburg?

Mon Dec 19, 2016 3:49 pm

Companies like Airbus usually have in house cuswtoms. I doubt that the Export declaration for an aircraft are still in paper form, customs is up to date These days as well. As said before, the Export declaration is a statistical form and the origin of the goods Play a role. Even the German state where a part was manufactured must be shown. The tail assembly for instance Comes from Stade which is Nether Saxony, some parts may be fro Bremen and the final assembly is in Hamburg state. Some US or other third Country parts will never have entered Germany but stayed under bond, which will be cancelled upon Export. An interesting and complex matter. At the end of the day it is Routine, with more than an aircraft per day on the average, but each ship delivered is different..
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
zionite
Topic Author
Posts: 101
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Re: Airbus Delivery - Why Toulouse & Hamburg?

Mon Dec 19, 2016 4:39 pm

So I understand that there is no particular reason.

Most probable reason it seems is division of deliveries to customers on basis of region is best to divide work (and taxes) between Germany and France.
 
bjorn14
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Re: Airbus Delivery - Why Toulouse & Hamburg?

Mon Dec 19, 2016 7:03 pm

Does the customer or AB decide where a frame will be built? A little bit OT but what is a typical deposit for a plane?
"I want to know the voice of God the rest is just details" --A. Einstein
 
vv701
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Re: Airbus Delivery - Why Toulouse & Hamburg?

Tue Dec 20, 2016 4:06 pm

All 12 BA A380s were assembled at TLS.

All 12 were then ferried to XFW mostly as part of their first flight.

At XFW all 12 were painted and had their cabins outfitted.

After painting and outfitting all 12 were then ferried back to TLS.
,
Nearly all other 380s have been delivered at XFW.

Why were BA's 380s delivered at TLS and not XFW?
 
Noshow
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Re: Airbus Delivery - Why Toulouse & Hamburg?

Tue Dec 20, 2016 4:47 pm

They just deliver them from where they assembled them. From Hamburg-Finkenwerder, Toulouse, Tianjin and Charleston for the commercial airplanes side. There can be minor changes but that is the short form. If some customer like BA prefers a place he might get his choice.
 
WIederling
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Re: Airbus Delivery - Why Toulouse & Hamburg?

Tue Dec 20, 2016 5:01 pm

Delivery of A380 to customers is split between
Toulouse for Asia, America and Australia
and Finkenwerder for all other regions.
Murphy is an optimist
 
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SomebodyInTLS
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Re: Airbus Delivery - Why Toulouse & Hamburg?

Tue Dec 20, 2016 5:12 pm

Noshow wrote:
They just deliver them from where they assembled them.


Did you read any of the thread? That simply is not true.
"As with most things related to aircraft design, it's all about the trade-offs and much more nuanced than A.net likes to make out."
 
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Polot
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Re: Airbus Delivery - Why Toulouse & Hamburg?

Tue Dec 20, 2016 5:35 pm

WIederling wrote:
Delivery of A380 to customers is split between
Toulouse for Asia, America and Australia
and Finkenwerder for all other regions.

According to vv701 BA"s A380s were delivered from TLS though.
 
jeffrey0032j
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Re: Airbus Delivery - Why Toulouse & Hamburg?

Tue Dec 20, 2016 5:51 pm

77H wrote:
zionite wrote:
Maybe a dumb question...

Why does Airbus have different delivery centers in Hamburg (customers in Europe & Middle East) and Toulouse (customers in rest of the world)?

Why not only 1 center in Europe, 1 in Tianjin and 1 in Mobile? Or delivery from site it was made?

Any specific reason? Taxes, Language & Culture, Paperwork?


My uneducated guess would be that neither airport has the ability to absorb the totality of the Airbus operation. In Washington State, Boeing builds aircraft at Paine Field in Everett, Renton field with another operation at Boeing Field. There is also now Charleston.

Boeing deliveries are traditionally through 2 Seattle airports, Paine Field for widebodies and Boeing Field for narrowbodies (which currently means just the 737). Narrowbody aircraft built at Renton are flown to Boeing Field on their first flight (B1) and then all subsequent test/pre-acceptance flights are conducted at Boeing Field. Narrowbody deliveries therefore occur through Boeing Field.

Now, with the Charleston line, typically planes built in Charleston are delivered through Charleston, althought there are cases where CHS built planes that were delivered in Seattle and vice-versa.

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