Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
indcwby
Topic Author
Posts: 332
Joined: Sat Dec 18, 2010 7:32 pm

ATC Error Nearly Causes Crash near LAX

Tue Dec 20, 2016 4:27 am

http://abc13.com/news/controller-error- ... e/1664486/

An air traffic controller error sent EVA Air 015 from LAX into the flight path of another plane and flying low over the mountains above the San Gabriel Valley. FAA has launched investigations.
A319, A320, A330, A340, B717, B727, B737, B747, B757, B767, B777, CRJ7, DC10, MD88, MD11, E145, E175
"Always remember that you fly an airplane with your head, not your hands."
 
hayzel777
Posts: 638
Joined: Wed Mar 16, 2016 3:18 am

Re: ATC Error Nearly Causes Crash near LAX

Tue Dec 20, 2016 5:13 am

Someone at EVA is going to be in big trouble. They do not take bad PR lightly, even if it wasn't there fault.
 
OMP777X
Posts: 455
Joined: Fri Jan 23, 2015 8:10 am

Re: ATC Error Nearly Causes Crash near LAX

Tue Dec 20, 2016 5:16 am

I am going to wait on the investigation report before I'd call out the ATC and say for a fact she sent them towards the mountains and the other aircraft. I think we all know how well versed the news media is on aviation, after all they called the airline E.V.A. Air. Anyway, that controller sounded very angry, and rightfully so after they took so long to respond.

Best,

OMP777X
"Happy Flighting!"
 
DfwRevolution
Posts: 9305
Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2010 7:31 pm

Re: ATC Error Nearly Causes Crash near LAX

Tue Dec 20, 2016 5:21 am

This would appear to be the departure in question:

https://www.flightradar24.com/data/flights/br15#be7fcf0
I have a three post per topic limit. You're welcome to have the last word.
 
wn676
Posts: 1747
Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2005 5:33 am

Re: ATC Error Nearly Causes Crash near LAX

Tue Dec 20, 2016 5:24 am

From the playback, the controller's initial instruction to turn to a heading of 180 is blocked by the other frequency, however, EVA reads it back as "left turn" and is not corrected. EVA seems hopelessly lost through the rest of the exchange, and while I can understand their confusion - a right turn would have made more sense, and the controller's tone and "what are you doing" comment doesn't help - I can't wrap my head around why they kept flying northbound for so long when it became clear they needed to head the opposite direction.
Last edited by wn676 on Tue Dec 20, 2016 5:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
Tiny, unreadable text leaves ample room for interpretation.
 
hayzel777
Posts: 638
Joined: Wed Mar 16, 2016 3:18 am

Re: ATC Error Nearly Causes Crash near LAX

Tue Dec 20, 2016 5:24 am

OMP777X wrote:
I am going to wait on the investigation report before I'd call out the ATC and say for a fact she sent them towards the mountains and the other aircraft. I think we all know how well versed the news media is on aviation, after all they called the airline E.V.A. Air. Anyway, that controller sounded very angry, and rightfully so after they took so long to respond.

Best,

OMP777X


ATC recording has reading back turn left instead of turn right. Better to wait for the report though. The captain and first officer and going to be dragged in front of a technical review board for sure though. BR does not take lightly the fact the two of them have put a bad image on BR.
Last edited by hayzel777 on Tue Dec 20, 2016 5:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
jpetekyxmd80
Posts: 4317
Joined: Fri Aug 01, 2003 3:16 am

Re: ATC Error Nearly Causes Crash near LAX

Tue Dec 20, 2016 5:28 am

OMP777X wrote:
after all they called the airline E.V.A. Air.



They were right
The Best Care in the Air, 1984-2009
 
hayzel777
Posts: 638
Joined: Wed Mar 16, 2016 3:18 am

Re: ATC Error Nearly Causes Crash near LAX

Tue Dec 20, 2016 5:31 am

They did call the 777 a seven seventy seven.
 
User avatar
77west
Posts: 969
Joined: Sat Jun 13, 2009 11:52 am

Re: ATC Error Nearly Causes Crash near LAX

Tue Dec 20, 2016 5:36 am

Never mind bad image - the initial error was ATC but to take more than a minute to take corrective action seems pretty dangerous to me.
77West - AW109S - BE90 - JS31 - B1900 - Q300 - ATR72 - DC9-30 - MD80 - B733 - A320 - B738 - A300-B4 - B773 - B77W
 
wn676
Posts: 1747
Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2005 5:33 am

Re: ATC Error Nearly Causes Crash near LAX

Tue Dec 20, 2016 5:40 am

Well, going through a few more times and I'm having a hard time keeping both the controller and EVA straight. After she says left to 180, it becomes right to 180...EVA reads back 010...she says left to 270...then says turn south, southbound, south now, etc., all while EVA seems to still be trying to confirm the heading and also getting varying altitude instructions in a single transmission.

Hope this doesn't come off as speculation, I'm just surprised at how disorganized it all sounds. Can't wait to see the final report on this one.
Last edited by wn676 on Tue Dec 20, 2016 5:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
Tiny, unreadable text leaves ample room for interpretation.
 
User avatar
jetblastdubai
Posts: 1956
Joined: Sun Aug 18, 2013 10:23 am

Re: ATC Error Nearly Causes Crash near LAX

Tue Dec 20, 2016 5:41 am

from the article:
"Audio traffic indicates the same controller realizing the problem and telling the airliner to "Stop your climb" and several times to head southbound.

"EVA 015 Heavy, what are you doing? Turn southbound now, southbound now. Stop your climb," the frustrated controller says after the plane apparently does not heed her initial instruction.

Several times the controller tells the pilot to head south. More than a minute later, she is still trying to get him to change direction.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
"Turn southbound now" might mean something to a native English-speaking pilot but to a non-native English speaker, this non-standard phraseology probably doesn't translate well as a legitimate ATC clearance. Asking the pilot "what are you doing" also does nothing to resolve the problem and it probably only further confuses the pilots as they were, after all, doing what the controller had instructed them to do (mistakenly) earlier.

Good grief, if the plane has not changed direction after a minute of saying "What are you doing? Turn southbound now" maybe reverting to standard phraseology would be a good idea. "Turn right or turn left heading 180" is how to instruct a plane to turn south. "Maintain X thousand" is how you instruct a plane to maintain an altitude. This is true in FAA and ICAO phraseology.

Regardless of the initial wrong instructions that "allegedly" got the plane into the bad situation, the controller's attempt to RESOLVE the problem was absolute crap and she had an attitude to go with it. A bad combination.

As a controller, we've all been there...either trying to fix a mistake we made or trying to fix a mistake a pilot made. The frustration factor is almost always there because as professionals we take extreme pride in avoiding making mistakes and especially serious mistakes.
Last edited by jetblastdubai on Tue Dec 20, 2016 5:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
wn676
Posts: 1747
Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2005 5:33 am

Re: ATC Error Nearly Causes Crash near LAX

Tue Dec 20, 2016 5:45 am

jetblastdubai wrote:
from the article:
"Audio traffic indicates the same controller realizing the problem and telling the airliner to "Stop your climb" and several times to head southbound.

"EVA 015 Heavy, what are you doing? Turn southbound now, southbound now. Stop your climb," the frustrated controller says after the plane apparently does not heed her initial instruction.

Several times the controller tells the pilot to head south. More than a minute later, she is still trying to get him to change direction.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
"Turn southbound now" might mean something to a native English-speaking pilot but to a non-native English speaker, this non-standard phraseology probably doesn't translate well as a legitimate ATC clearance. Asking the pilot "what are you doing" also does nothing to resolve the problem and it probably only further confuses the pilots as they were, after all, doing what the controller had instructed them to do (mistakenly) earlier.

Good grief, if the plane has not changed direction after a minute of saying "What are you doing? Turn southbound now" maybe reverting to standard phraseology would be a good idea. "Turn right or turn left heading 180" is how to instruct a plane to turn south. "Maintain X thousand" is how you instruct a plane to maintain an altitude. This is true in FAA and ICAO phraseology.

Regardless of the initial wrong instructions that got the plane into the bad situation, the controller's attempt to RESOLVE the problem was absolute crap and she had an attitude to go with it. A bad combination.


This. There were so many different instructions and nonstandard phraseology within what appears to be a short period of time, all seemingly with the attitude that the plane did something wrong.
Tiny, unreadable text leaves ample room for interpretation.
 
bzcat
Posts: 328
Joined: Thu May 29, 2008 11:34 pm

Re: ATC Error Nearly Causes Crash near LAX

Tue Dec 20, 2016 6:05 am

I was going to mention the poor instructions from the controller but looks like someone already did. Why did she say "turn south bound" instead of giving them a heading?

LAX was on reverse flow due to the storm and winds so that may have added to everyone's confusion.
 
notconcerned
Posts: 189
Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2016 3:39 pm

Re: ATC Error Nearly Causes Crash near LAX

Tue Dec 20, 2016 6:22 am

OMP777X wrote:
I think we all know how well versed the news media is on aviation, after all they called the airline E.V.A. Air.


As others have mentioned, the company/airline is pronounced E-V-A Air, but its letters. I believe the callsign is "EVA" as one-word.
 
Varsity1
Posts: 2223
Joined: Mon May 02, 2016 4:55 am

Re: ATC Error Nearly Causes Crash near LAX

Tue Dec 20, 2016 6:30 am

How high were they? Lower than the OROCA? Did they have a loss of separation? If no to both then I don't think it's even a deviation.
"PPRuNe will no longer allow discussions regarding Etihad Airlines, its employees, executives, agents, or other representatives. Such threads will be deleted." - ME3 thug airlines suing anyone who brings negative information public..
 
QANTAS747-438
Posts: 1739
Joined: Mon Jan 22, 2001 7:01 am

Re: ATC Error Nearly Causes Crash near LAX

Tue Dec 20, 2016 6:52 am

Would the flight have had a preprogrammed departure, even on East flow? If so, why wouldn't the plane have followed that?
My posts/replies are strictly my opinion and not that of any company, organization, or Southwest Airlines.
 
hayzel777
Posts: 638
Joined: Wed Mar 16, 2016 3:18 am

Re: ATC Error Nearly Causes Crash near LAX

Tue Dec 20, 2016 6:54 am

Varsity1 wrote:
How high were they? Lower than the OROCA? Did they have a loss of separation? If no to both then I don't think it's even a deviation.



FAA says prelim finding is there was no loss of separation. They were climbing steadily though. However, Mt Wilson is right there and it is 5710 at its peak.
 
User avatar
77west
Posts: 969
Joined: Sat Jun 13, 2009 11:52 am

Re: ATC Error Nearly Causes Crash near LAX

Tue Dec 20, 2016 7:39 am

This is one of the reasons I find it strange that the USA still has so many vector based departures from major airports. I realise that this increases capacity, but if they were flying a non-vector SID this would not have happened.
77West - AW109S - BE90 - JS31 - B1900 - Q300 - ATR72 - DC9-30 - MD80 - B733 - A320 - B738 - A300-B4 - B773 - B77W
 
Flighty
Posts: 9963
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2007 3:07 am

Re: ATC Error Nearly Causes Crash near LAX

Tue Dec 20, 2016 7:57 am

At least there was no Extra Vehicular Activity, and everyone is safe.
 
User avatar
blackbox67
Posts: 124
Joined: Tue Sep 08, 2015 9:13 pm

Re: ATC Error Nearly Causes Crash near LAX

Tue Dec 20, 2016 12:08 pm

 
Boeingphan
Posts: 231
Joined: Fri Apr 01, 2016 10:29 am

Re: ATC Error Nearly Causes Crash near LAX

Tue Dec 20, 2016 1:28 pm

From blackbox67 link I read it as it's Eva not grasping the English term Southbound. The controller used the phrase "turn southbound" several times and EVA even read back at one point "southbound". I think we will find a simple miscommunication and understanding on both parties. Had ATC given heading's in numerals I think this is avoided but I would surmise this happens all over the world to those who don't have perfect command of the given language (yes I realize English is universal but accents can make things hard to understand).
 
D L X
Posts: 12676
Joined: Thu May 27, 1999 3:30 am

Re: ATC Error Nearly Causes Crash near LAX

Tue Dec 20, 2016 3:23 pm

Wrong vectors or not, how is it anything other than pilot error if you come within 500 feet of crashing into a mountain peak with a perfectly functional plane?
 
Natflyer
Posts: 642
Joined: Fri Oct 11, 2013 9:29 pm

Re: ATC Error Nearly Causes Crash near LAX

Tue Dec 20, 2016 3:28 pm

77west wrote:
This is one of the reasons I find it strange that the USA still has so many vector based departures from major airports. I realise that this increases capacity, but if they were flying a non-vector SID this would not have happened.


Beats the hell out the crap they give us in Europe, I think BCN has something close to 140 SIDs, FRA is close. Awful.
 
Varsity1
Posts: 2223
Joined: Mon May 02, 2016 4:55 am

Re: ATC Error Nearly Causes Crash near LAX

Tue Dec 20, 2016 3:51 pm

77west wrote:
This is one of the reasons I find it strange that the USA still has so many vector based departures from major airports. I realise that this increases capacity, but if they were flying a non-vector SID this would not have happened.



It is still possible with SID's. They can be programmed incorrectly.

Vectoring allows aircraft with huge variations in performance to depart with minimal delay. Not many general aviation aircraft use big airports in Europe.
"PPRuNe will no longer allow discussions regarding Etihad Airlines, its employees, executives, agents, or other representatives. Such threads will be deleted." - ME3 thug airlines suing anyone who brings negative information public..
 
sadiqutp
Posts: 290
Joined: Thu Sep 08, 2016 5:05 pm

Re: ATC Error Nearly Causes Crash near LAX

Tue Dec 20, 2016 4:29 pm

A brilliant video by VASAviation regarding the incident.. It seems that the pilot didn't respond to ATC instructions although his readbacks were clear .. A mystery!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tFdXax7Zh_g
 
User avatar
N62NA
Posts: 4471
Joined: Sun Aug 10, 2003 1:05 am

Re: ATC Error Nearly Causes Crash near LAX

Tue Dec 20, 2016 4:50 pm

Oops I see you just added this and for some reason I can't delete this post. Anyway, yes, an excellent presentation.

Here's a good map+ATC presentation:

https://youtu.be/tFdXax7Zh_g
 
User avatar
TVNWZ
Posts: 2268
Joined: Fri Feb 17, 2006 9:28 am

Re: ATC Error Nearly Causes Crash near LAX

Tue Dec 20, 2016 5:07 pm

In the beginning the controller instructions were very clear and precise. They were --for whatever reason--said back to the controller but ignored. This went on for several interchanges. She did not break nomenclature until it was apparent he was dangerously screwing up by not following her instructions. It appeared to me she used non-standard nomenclature to get his attention--to convey an urgency. She may have been wrong doing that, but it appeared well meaning.

It will be interesting to find out why the pilot ignored the instructions to turn 180 degrees several times while repeating back the instructions. Very odd.
 
D L X
Posts: 12676
Joined: Thu May 27, 1999 3:30 am

Re: ATC Error Nearly Causes Crash near LAX

Tue Dec 20, 2016 5:11 pm

sadiqutp wrote:
A brilliant video by VASAviation regarding the incident.. It seems that the pilot didn't respond to ATC instructions although his readbacks were clear .. A mystery!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tFdXax7Zh_g



WOW!! That controller appears to be under exceptional stress. I really have to wonder what was going on in that cockpit.
 
dmg626
Posts: 408
Joined: Mon Jan 19, 2015 3:47 pm

Re: ATC Error Nearly Causes Crash near LAX

Tue Dec 20, 2016 5:18 pm

TVNWZ wrote:
In the beginning the controller instructions were very clear and precise. They were --for whatever reason--said back to the controller but ignored. This went on for several interchanges. She did not break nomenclature until it was apparent he was dangerously screwing up by not following her instructions. It appeared to me she used non-standard nomenclature to get his attention--to convey an urgency. She may have been wrong doing that, but it appeared well meaning.

It will be interesting to find out why the pilot ignored the instructions to turn 180 degrees several times while repeating back the instructions. Very odd.



Perhaps they were caught up in the automation and didn't revert to less automation or actual hand flying the airplane
 
Natflyer
Posts: 642
Joined: Fri Oct 11, 2013 9:29 pm

Re: ATC Error Nearly Causes Crash near LAX

Tue Dec 20, 2016 6:04 pm

sadiqutp wrote:
A brilliant video by VASAviation regarding the incident.. It seems that the pilot didn't respond to ATC instructions although his readbacks were clear .. A mystery!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tFdXax7Zh_g


Great video, can´t fault the controller. The EVA crew is...lost.
 
Thenoflyzone
Posts: 2980
Joined: Sun Jan 07, 2001 4:42 am

Re: ATC Error Nearly Causes Crash near LAX

Tue Dec 20, 2016 6:16 pm

Sounds like this controller needs to pay more attention to readbacks....

In the beginning of that YouTube clip, DAL1393 never read back FL170 and switched frequencies. EVA read back "left turn hdg 180" and she never caught it either. (whether she assigned the left turn or not)

And yes, she was under a lot of stress when she realized EVA was northbound. She gave confusing instructions a few times.
us Air Traffic Controllers have a good record, we haven't left one up there yet !!
 
D L X
Posts: 12676
Joined: Thu May 27, 1999 3:30 am

Re: ATC Error Nearly Causes Crash near LAX

Tue Dec 20, 2016 6:19 pm

Thenoflyzone wrote:
EVA read back "left turn hdg 180" and she never caught it either. (whether she assigned the left turn or not).


Is it possible she did say left turn 180? I know EVA was heading 090 at the time, but in a reverse flow pattern, would it be unheard of to do the 270 degree turn to the south to basically stay over the same general area and ascend until the turn was completed?
 
hayzel777
Posts: 638
Joined: Wed Mar 16, 2016 3:18 am

Re: ATC Error Nearly Causes Crash near LAX

Tue Dec 20, 2016 6:36 pm

Both pilots employment are now in question. Suspended without pay until there TRB. The CAA of Taiwan has also suspended there licenses.
 
DiamondFlyer
Posts: 3377
Joined: Wed Oct 29, 2008 11:50 pm

Re: ATC Error Nearly Causes Crash near LAX

Tue Dec 20, 2016 6:40 pm

Thenoflyzone wrote:
Sounds like this controller needs to pay more attention to readbacks....

In the beginning of that YouTube clip, DAL1393 never read back FL170 and switched frequencies. EVA read back "left turn hdg 180" and she never caught it either. (whether she assigned the left turn or not)

And yes, she was under a lot of stress when she realized EVA was northbound. She gave confusing instructions a few times.


Delta 1393 couldn't read back FL170, as no such thing exists in the United States. They could read back 17,000, but not FL170.
From my cold, dead hands
 
iamlucky13
Posts: 1215
Joined: Wed Aug 08, 2007 12:35 pm

Re: ATC Error Nearly Causes Crash near LAX

Tue Dec 20, 2016 6:43 pm

Because this is a.net, and one of our finest traditions is nitpicking thread titles, I might as well jump in and contend "nearly causes crash" is speculative so far. It doesn't sound like any definite collision trajectories have been identified, and even a proximity violation is unclear:

" FAA officials said the EVA never lost the required distance to the other jetliner to be in danger of a plane-to-plane collision, but the agency is investigating whether it did come too close to the mountains."


Of course, this level of miscue and the ensuing slow response in a crowded area like LAX is serious enough to warrant attention. No debate there.
 
CHA5Departure
Posts: 28
Joined: Thu Oct 23, 2014 12:39 am

Re: ATC Error Nearly Causes Crash near LAX

Tue Dec 20, 2016 6:46 pm

I don't know if anyone else caught this in the youtube video linked above, but it sounds like near the end of the clip when EVA 015 finally starts turning right for 180 that the pilot handling comms has changed. The voice sounds different to me than previous comms. If that is the case it certainly makes you wonder what was going on in the cockpit...

EDIT: Or maybe it is the same pilot and he is losing his shiz because he realizes they are very close to a CFIT disaster.
Last edited by CHA5Departure on Tue Dec 20, 2016 7:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
Sean-SAN-
Posts: 815
Joined: Tue Aug 13, 2002 4:02 pm

Re: ATC Error Nearly Causes Crash near LAX

Tue Dec 20, 2016 6:51 pm

Didn't the crew get a terrain warning at some point as well?
 
D L X
Posts: 12676
Joined: Thu May 27, 1999 3:30 am

Re: ATC Error Nearly Causes Crash near LAX

Tue Dec 20, 2016 7:43 pm

CHA5Departure wrote:
I don't know if anyone else caught this in the youtube video linked above, but it sounds like near the end of the clip when EVA 015 finally starts turning right for 180 that the pilot handling comms has changed. The voice sounds different to me than previous comms. If that is the case it certainly makes you wonder what was going on in the cockpit...

EDIT: Or maybe it is the same pilot and he is losing his shiz because he realizes they are very close to a CFIT disaster.

There was definitely a communications breakdown of some sort. The EVA pilot asks before that point for an expedited climb. I took that as possible evidence that he knew he could not stay at 5000 feet in the direction he was going.
 
User avatar
blackbox67
Posts: 124
Joined: Tue Sep 08, 2015 9:13 pm

Re: ATC Error Nearly Causes Crash near LAX

Tue Dec 20, 2016 7:51 pm

The Jacdec report now contains a statement by EVA (bottom):
http://www.jacdec.de/2016/12/20/2016-12-16-eva-air-b777-flew-astray-and-close-to-terrain-east-of-los-angeles/

EVA Air BR015 Communication Confusion with Air Traffic Control

Approximately 2:19 am Friday, 16 December, 2016

At 2:19 a.m. on Friday, December 16, EVA Air flight BR015 followed Air Traffic Control’s instruction to take off from the right side of Los Angeles International Airport’s No. 7 runway. The pilot also complied with the controller’s direction and speed instructions. Our flight was never too close to other aircraft or to the mountains.

EVA is working in full cooperation with the US Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) and related authorities in the investigation of this situation.


Pilot did nothing wrong. ATC is to blame. Really ?
Interestingly - for whatever reason - the part where SoCal controller is supposed to give the wrong turning order, the tapes did not record it, only the readback "left to 180, southbound".

Also can it be SoCal approves a racing 330 knots below FL100 ?
 
hayzel777
Posts: 638
Joined: Wed Mar 16, 2016 3:18 am

Re: ATC Error Nearly Causes Crash near LAX

Tue Dec 20, 2016 7:54 pm

D L X wrote:
CHA5Departure wrote:
I don't know if anyone else caught this in the youtube video linked above, but it sounds like near the end of the clip when EVA 015 finally starts turning right for 180 that the pilot handling comms has changed. The voice sounds different to me than previous comms. If that is the case it certainly makes you wonder what was going on in the cockpit...

EDIT: Or maybe it is the same pilot and he is losing his shiz because he realizes they are very close to a CFIT disaster.

There was definitely a communications breakdown of some sort. The EVA pilot asks before that point for an expedited climb. I took that as possible evidence that he knew he could not stay at 5000 feet in the direction he was going.


I feel like they were confused too. First she says heading 180, then left heading 270 and then right heading 180. Towards the end, you can ask the pilot "left or right" but she never responded.

I do hope BR fires these two pilots. They don't deserve to be flying planes if they can't follow simple ATC instructions.
 
barney captain
Posts: 2350
Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2001 5:47 pm

Re: ATC Error Nearly Causes Crash near LAX

Tue Dec 20, 2016 8:21 pm

D L X wrote:
CHA5Departure wrote:
I don't know if anyone else caught this in the youtube video linked above, but it sounds like near the end of the clip when EVA 015 finally starts turning right for 180 that the pilot handling comms has changed. The voice sounds different to me than previous comms. If that is the case it certainly makes you wonder what was going on in the cockpit...

EDIT: Or maybe it is the same pilot and he is losing his shiz because he realizes they are very close to a CFIT disaster.

There was definitely a communications breakdown of some sort. The EVA pilot asks before that point for an expedited climb. I took that as possible evidence that he knew he could not stay at 5000 feet in the direction he was going.


They asked for a "high speed climb" not an expedited climb. This is routinely done on heavy aircraft and permits exceeding the requirement of maintaining a maximum of 250kts below 10k feet. This request was made prior to any problems with their course.
Southeast Of Disorder
 
User avatar
jetblastdubai
Posts: 1956
Joined: Sun Aug 18, 2013 10:23 am

Re: ATC Error Nearly Causes Crash near LAX

Tue Dec 20, 2016 8:21 pm

blackbox67 wrote:
Pilot did nothing wrong. ATC is to blame. Really ?
Interestingly - for whatever reason - the part where SoCal controller is supposed to give the wrong turning order, the tapes did not record it, only the readback "left to 180, southbound".

Also can it be SoCal approves a racing 330 knots below FL100 ?


As a controller, regardless of what you instruct a pilot to do, if the pilot reads back the clearance incorrectly and responds accordingly, the controller takes 100% of the responsibility for the error. This is what's known as a 'hearback error'. The pilot may or may not share any responsibility for the miscommunication. This is why it is a very risky habit to issue control instructions in the same transmission with a frequency change as it gives the controller no chance of correcting an incorrect readback if necessary.

In the US, any controller acts as an extension of the Administrator and we can approve any safe speed, if operationally feasible, at pilot's request. By approving "speed your discretion", the pilot is free to operate at any speed he/she wishes. We can also lock the pilot down to 290 or 300 kts for example as it's not always a blanket free-for-all. It's more common when departing the 24/25s at LAX as there is very little VFR traffic and it helps the heavy planes fly cleaner sooner.

Unless things have changed since I worked there, EVA was more than likely on the Ventura departure and when departing to the east, the normal routing will be a clockwise turn back around the south side of the airport.
 
User avatar
AirlineCritic
Posts: 1765
Joined: Sat Mar 14, 2009 1:07 pm

Re: ATC Error Nearly Causes Crash near LAX

Tue Dec 20, 2016 8:39 pm

Swiss cheese. I'm no expert, but it sounded like being more exact about the instructions might have helped, being more careful about readbacks and checking the readbacks would have helped, and not being confused in the cockpit would have helped.
 
wjcandee
Posts: 8977
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2000 12:50 am

Re: ATC Error Nearly Causes Crash near LAX

Tue Dec 20, 2016 8:44 pm

This controller was out of her depth. And I will say so just having heard the tape and that alone. Instead of blabbing at non-native-English speakers with a bunch of jargon, all she had to say was, "EVA Air 15, turn LEFT to heading 180". That's it. And repeat it and make them read it back. That's ALL she had to do. Instead all this "What are you doing? You're heading northbound, turn Southbound NOW" nonsense not only is completely non-standard and unhelpful, it doesn't address the issue that they are turning in the wrong direction towards a hazard. Also, stopping their climb put them more in peril as they headed towards the mountain range. Again, all she had to do is give them a DIRECTION to turn in, and a HEADING. You could also hear the brain/mouth disconnect as she repeately started calling one plane then corrected herself.

Time for a new assignment at the Trenton tower, where she hopefully won't hurt anyone.
 
hayzel777
Posts: 638
Joined: Wed Mar 16, 2016 3:18 am

Re: ATC Error Nearly Causes Crash near LAX

Tue Dec 20, 2016 9:27 pm

wjcandee wrote:
This controller was out of her depth. And I will say so just having heard the tape and that alone. Instead of blabbing at non-native-English speakers with a bunch of jargon, all she had to say was, "EVA Air 15, turn LEFT to heading 180". That's it. And repeat it and make them read it back. That's ALL she had to do. Instead all this "What are you doing? You're heading northbound, turn Southbound NOW" nonsense not only is completely non-standard and unhelpful, it doesn't address the issue that they are turning in the wrong direction towards a hazard. Also, stopping their climb put them more in peril as they headed towards the mountain range. Again, all she had to do is give them a DIRECTION to turn in, and a HEADING. You could also hear the brain/mouth disconnect as she repeately started calling one plane then corrected herself.

Time for a new assignment at the Trenton tower, where she hopefully won't hurt anyone.


Apparently the controller has already been put on administrative leave.
 
Thenoflyzone
Posts: 2980
Joined: Sun Jan 07, 2001 4:42 am

Re: ATC Error Nearly Causes Crash near LAX

Tue Dec 20, 2016 10:38 pm

DiamondFlyer wrote:
Thenoflyzone wrote:
Sounds like this controller needs to pay more attention to readbacks....

In the beginning of that YouTube clip, DAL1393 never read back FL170 and switched frequencies. EVA read back "left turn hdg 180" and she never caught it either. (whether she assigned the left turn or not)

And yes, she was under a lot of stress when she realized EVA was northbound. She gave confusing instructions a few times.


Delta 1393 couldn't read back FL170, as no such thing exists in the United States. They could read back 17,000, but not FL170.


Stop being a smart ass. You know what I mean. He didn't read back 17,000 either. Bottom line, she needs to pay attention to readbacks.
us Air Traffic Controllers have a good record, we haven't left one up there yet !!
 
User avatar
blackbox67
Posts: 124
Joined: Tue Sep 08, 2015 9:13 pm

Re: ATC Error Nearly Causes Crash near LAX

Tue Dec 20, 2016 11:58 pm

wjcandee wrote:
...You could also hear the brain/mouth disconnect as she repeately started calling one plane then corrected herself.

Time for a new assignment at the Trenton tower, where she hopefully won't hurt anyone.

What an awful "locker room" post. Without any glimpse of the whole situation I would suggest to refrain from abusive statements like these.
How can it be in a aviation forum to have such finger-pointing before all of the facts are known.?
Did we hear her saying the words "left to 180" ? There is only the (false) readback on the audit file.

On the part of the pilots : How about turning the HDG-knob to 180 as instructed and read back ? What about asking again "Do you want us to turn left to the north ?"
Could be EGPWS saved the day but pilots should always have an idea where they will be in the next minutes.
I agree there was ambigous wording used by both parties in this event. Maybe there was an error on the part of the controller, but shifting all the blame to just one side is taking the easy way out.
 
wjcandee
Posts: 8977
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2000 12:50 am

Re: ATC Error Nearly Causes Crash near LAX

Wed Dec 21, 2016 12:30 am

blackbox67 wrote:
What an awful "locker room" post. Without any glimpse of the whole situation I would suggest to refrain from abusive statements like these.
How can it be in a aviation forum to have such finger-pointing before all of the facts are known.?


Because all I have to do is listen to liveatc and hear enough to know she's out of her depth, that's why.

Were there failings on the flight deck? Maybe. Don't know what was going on there.

What I do know is a good deal of what the controller did and apparently did not do. As her stress level rose, she repeated a number of instructions to head "South", "southbound", "south now", without giving a direction of turn, and surrounded these instructions with a lot of confusing words that have no meaning in ATC English. There are plenty of standard ATC communications that she could have used to get their attention and get them to do what she wanted. She didn't use them, to the detriment of all concerned. So, in my view, she needs at a minimum to be taken off this position and subject to retraining on procedures and proper attitude/demeanor. Whether this incident reveals something else about her response to stress and challenging circumstances that disqualify her from future duty is another question that should also be answered.

Reminds me a little of that controller in Providence who sanctimoniously sent two aircraft into a near-collision on the runway, despite numerous opportunities to avoid a problem. That controller was, in my view from listening to the presentation on the incident, someone who had the wrong personality to be a controller. I think the FAA ultimately just retrained her, but wow. The attitude displayed in the second video is just horrendous beyond belief. The USAirways pilots in that incident are total heros for rejecting her instructions and staying safe until they heard a radio report that the 757 was actually at the gate. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qUDFY5qlTSA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zM_OCV8KT1A
Last edited by wjcandee on Wed Dec 21, 2016 12:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
N670UW
Posts: 1443
Joined: Mon Jul 21, 2003 9:55 am

Re: ATC Error Nearly Causes Crash near LAX

Wed Dec 21, 2016 12:50 am

Listening to that recording as a controller...that controller is horrific. "Turn southbound" is not phraseology to use with an IFR jet...particularly a known foreign pilot...besides missing the incorrect turn direction.
 
keitherson
Posts: 241
Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2014 3:00 pm

Re: ATC Error Nearly Causes Crash near LAX

Wed Dec 21, 2016 1:12 am

Dear lord this is even worse than the famous ATC recording with China Airlines at JFK.

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos