cat3appr50
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Re: ATC Error Nearly Causes Crash near LAX

Thu Dec 22, 2016 6:48 pm

I’m guessing there was likely around 330-350 passengers on this B777 300ER flight. After listening to the ATC instructions (posted ATC audio) and EVA15 crew responses, and considering the flight path and altitude in heading into high terrain and even a potential conflict with ACA788, I thanked God that somehow this snarl of poor interaction turned out OK. This could easily have turned out very bad.

Despite the back and forth snarled up communication going on between the ATC controller and EVA15, surely the EGPWS in that cockpit was likely screaming warnings of closure on the high terrain, and assuming the FO’s-if the PNF- ND was on terrain mode (as would be normal) the impending CFIT issue should have been clearly visible, and the ACA788 closure rate should have been evident on the ND (don't know if there was a TA or a TA and RA as well), requiring (their own) immediate evasive action if necessary, beyond the jumbled up ATC instructions and aircraft read backs.

The ATC controller instructions were certainly not the most stellar performance as well, and with unbelievable variance at times from more normal protocol instructions. Just my opinion.
 
hayzel777
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Re: ATC Error Nearly Causes Crash near LAX

Fri Dec 23, 2016 10:42 am

LA times reports the controller is back on the job with full pay but instead of working ATC, she is on desk duty. What a way to spend tax dollars after everything she has done. They should have kept her on admin leave until the investigation ended.
 
D L X
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Re: ATC Error Nearly Causes Crash near LAX

Fri Dec 23, 2016 1:18 pm

hayzel777 wrote:
LA times reports the controller is back on the job with full pay but instead of working ATC, she is on desk duty. What a way to spend tax dollars after everything she has done. They should have kept her on admin leave until the investigation ended.

Why? Because she couldn't get a jet with three hundred people aboard to not go in the direction she never told it to go?

The pitchfork brigade is out in force here for sure!
 
Theseus
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Re: ATC Error Nearly Causes Crash near LAX

Fri Dec 23, 2016 1:39 pm

I am neither pilot nor ATC, and am wondering at the terminology used here. I thought instructions should take the form of basic heading and altitude numbers, and am surprised to see so many occurrences of "southbound", "northbound", "right turn" here. Why not a simple "Fly heading 180, climb to 7000'" ? (honest question; I read the thread, and if there is a reason, I did not get it from the replies so far).
 
uta999
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Re: ATC Error Nearly Causes Crash near LAX

Fri Dec 23, 2016 2:43 pm

Please send most US Air traffic controllers on a course to NATS in the UK, as a matter of urgency. They are terrible, bad attitude, and they treat ATC like commentating on a ball game.

Listen to the BA038 landing incident at LHR on YouTube, to see how it should be done.

"What are you doing? Turn southbound" It's like a scene from the Simpsons.
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CALTECH
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Re: ATC Error Nearly Causes Crash near LAX

Fri Dec 23, 2016 4:06 pm

crownvic wrote:
wjcandee wrote:
...You could also hear the brain/mouth disconnect as she repeately started calling one plane then corrected herself.

Time for a new assignment at the Trenton tower, where she hopefully won't hurt anyone.


I for one could understand the EVA pilots better than I could understand our governments "finest". A little compassion here for the foreign pilots and some extreme disciplinary action for the controller!


The controller lost the situational awareness then proceeded to make things worse.

She sounds like one that lost it at MCO ground when there was some fog on the field. Never heard this controller before. The controller totally lost awareness, stopped everyone after messing up for 15 minutes or so. Didn't seem to know what anyone was doing or what she had told them to do. Kept asking everyone what they were doing and where they were. Then broadcast everyone to stop where they were until further instructions. After a extended period of silence, another familiar controller took over and immediately started everyone moving again. And have heard techs taxiing or moving aircraft that lose it also. Good, bad and ugly in these professions. Thank goodness EVA15 turned out okay.
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b747400erf
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Re: ATC Error Nearly Causes Crash near LAX

Fri Dec 23, 2016 11:50 pm

uta999 wrote:
Please send most US Air traffic controllers on a course to NATS in the UK, as a matter of urgency. They are terrible, bad attitude, and they treat ATC like commentating on a ball game.

Listen to the BA038 landing incident at LHR on YouTube, to see how it should be done.

"What are you doing? Turn southbound" It's like a scene from the Simpsons.


Your quote of her comment is out of context due to the command given to the EVA crew to turn RIGHT 180 3 times and the pilots read back RIGHT 180 and still did not turn. Her mistake in using that non standard phraseology was a mistake but it could have been the first time she really felt extreme stress and pressure and not everyone handles it the first time. The mistake in not doing what they read back to do is squarely on the EVA pilots, she will go through re-training and eased back into the controller job as she should.
 
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zeke
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Re: ATC Error Nearly Causes Crash near LAX

Sat Dec 24, 2016 3:59 am

I really do not have a problem with the phraseology used by the controller, they used both 3 digit heading and cardinal headings. Cardinal headings are used at Evas home port of TPE all the time for example "push back face east for runways 05". All pilots flying internationally are expected t have at least ICAO level 4 English, so they have been certified at being able to understand this.

The crew readback the clearance numerous and failed to act on them (or more accurately failed to get the aircraft to change course). If the crew were in doubt, they are required to say "confirm heading" etc , not to ignore things and steam ahead. What I dont know is if the crew actually put the heading into the MCP but failed to take it out of LNAV, making the crew think they set 180. In any case they should have monitored the FMA for the change to confirm the aircraft would be in HDG.
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cat3appr50
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Re: ATC Error Nearly Causes Crash near LAX

Sat Dec 24, 2016 7:15 pm

Adding to my original post, plotting the EVA15 departure WP’s and flt. data on GE at 0925.00Z (6200’) and at 0925 24Z (6600’), and also the estimated point on the flight path arc between these 2 WP’s at the closest abeam point to the Mt. Wilson Antenna towers (Sectional Chart altitude of highest tower 6,634’ MSL), places EVA15 around only 0.45 NM from the towers and at an altitude of around 6400.’ Only around 0.45 NM away when they were flying at around 320 Kn GS and at a lower altitude than the top of the highest tower!

If one desired a more visible picture of the situation at the noted two WP’s and flt. data above, and programmed same into the simulator/FMC with exact departure route (and flight parameters), only with daylight, but with actual weather, the view out the cockpit window was frightening, when the high terrain and obstacles were apparent, and close.

EVA11, with the exact same destination (RCTP) and exact same aircraft (B777 300ER which one would assume would have around the same TO Wt.) as EVA15, and same planned SID took off only a few minutes before EVA15 but followed a R turn to 180 (per ATC instruction) after takeoff.

With EVA15’s (ATC approved) higher climb speed than normal (i.e. 250 IAS below 10,000’) the closure rate on both the ensuing potential ACA788 conflict and the potential high terrain conflict was much greater and radius of required turns greater. Again, thank God that somehow this IMO snarl of poor interaction between ATC and the AVA15 crew turned out OK. This could easily have turned out very bad.
 
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pilotkev1
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Re: ATC Error Nearly Causes Crash near LAX

Sat Dec 24, 2016 7:51 pm

The controller acted appropriately. She gave clear instructions numerous times, and after being ignored every single time, she fell back on more simple instructions.

In her shoes, with a 777 barreling towards traffic first, then terrain, I'd make every effort to simplify my words if I thought for a second that an international flight crew wasn't understanding me. All she wanted was to prevent a collision at first, and then controlled flight into terrain. It had to be an incredibly intense situation for her, and props for her thinking to simplify her instructions in the heat of the moment.

She knew she had all the airspace and terrain clearance in the world if EVA15 would just turn right, or southbound. Turn right, turn southbound, do both, just don't crash.
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goboeing
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Re: ATC Error Nearly Causes Crash near LAX

Sat Dec 24, 2016 9:00 pm

What a terrible piece of air traffic controlling.

I'm glad she has been put on leave but unfortunately the issue is much more systemic than many would want to believe.
 
peterinlisbon
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Re: ATC Error Nearly Causes Crash near LAX

Sat Dec 24, 2016 9:43 pm

It reminds me of a joke someone made in flight school. If you flew over Madrid Barajas they would say "Hey Melon, what are you doing?" (Oye Melón, que haces?)
 
D L X
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Re: ATC Error Nearly Causes Crash near LAX

Sun Dec 25, 2016 12:04 am

goboeing wrote:
What a terrible piece of air traffic controlling.

I'm glad she has been put on leave but unfortunately the issue is much more systemic than many would want to believe.

I dunno. There are some pretty knowledgeable posters here that have said otherwise. So I'ma go with that.
 
MIADeparture
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Re: ATC Error Nearly Causes Crash near LAX

Sun Dec 25, 2016 8:14 am

This is the controller's fault. ( . ) Period. What you guys need are missing is the ATC side of the tape. The digital version. She turns EVA left to 180. They read it back correctly. She catches the mistake after the airplane starts moving NE bound, at 250 knots. Radar display lags actual action. So when she realized the plane was turning left, they were probably past 050 heading. Now you guys have the whole picture. She sucked. Period.

We all make mistakes. Pilots, controllers, mechanics. But what you see here isn't just a mistake. Its a lack of basics. Some controllers get through training with bare skills and bad basics (priorities, phraseology, control judgment). Most of these controllers do OK work with light to medium volume, but not complex, traffic. They, like airplanes, have an envelope, and they don't stray out of it. As long as they stay in their safe zone, its all good. But once they have to off-the-cuff something, its goes to hell. This EVA left turn took this controller out of her comfort zone. Asking the AAL go around "how do you read me?" while this EVA is STILL NORTHBOUND LEVEL AT 5000!!!! FT is a complete lack of basics.

If you guys saw the radar replay with the ATC side of the tape, you'd also reach the same conclusion. Bad day for her. Almost a last day for the EVA crew. Lesson to the flyers out there, its your ass. Not ours. So maintain your situational awareness and fear for your life, not your license.
 
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pvjin
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Re: ATC Error Nearly Causes Crash near LAX

Sun Dec 25, 2016 5:23 pm

hayzel777 wrote:
D L X wrote:
CHA5Departure wrote:
I don't know if anyone else caught this in the youtube video linked above, but it sounds like near the end of the clip when EVA 015 finally starts turning right for 180 that the pilot handling comms has changed. The voice sounds different to me than previous comms. If that is the case it certainly makes you wonder what was going on in the cockpit...

EDIT: Or maybe it is the same pilot and he is losing his shiz because he realizes they are very close to a CFIT disaster.

There was definitely a communications breakdown of some sort. The EVA pilot asks before that point for an expedited climb. I took that as possible evidence that he knew he could not stay at 5000 feet in the direction he was going.


I feel like they were confused too. First she says heading 180, then left heading 270 and then right heading 180. Towards the end, you can ask the pilot "left or right" but she never responded.

I do hope BR fires these two pilots. They don't deserve to be flying planes if they can't follow simple ATC instructions.

Maybe BR should test their pilots language skills before making them fly international flights? Besides, firing anyone who makes a mistake hardly does anything to fix problems with training / company safety culture. It's better to have a culture where you try to understand and learn from mistakes instead of simply blaming the person.
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that." - Martin Luther King Jr
 
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zeke
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Re: ATC Error Nearly Causes Crash near LAX

Sun Dec 25, 2016 5:44 pm

pvjin wrote:
Maybe BR should test their pilots language skills before making them fly international flights? .


All pilots flying internationally should have at least ICAO level 4 English certification on their licence, in the case of these pilots that is issued by the Taiwanese CAA. The readbacks I heard from the crew were in my view from a person with a good grasp of English.

The FAA through their Part 129 certification also have language requirements on foreign carriers operating into the US.

To me the breakdown is more likely to have been within the cockpit with the pilots more concerned with retracting the flaps than navigating the aircraft. A heavy 777 would not be able to fly 250 below 10 clean.
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D L X
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Re: ATC Error Nearly Causes Crash near LAX

Sun Dec 25, 2016 6:52 pm

Could it be as simple as the plane, being flown with autopilot, wanted to make a RIGHT turn to 180 while the pilots heard left turn to 180 and were trying to figure out how to do it automatically? (It might be a dumb question. I'm not a pilot, so I'd love to learn something from more knowledgable people here.)
 
b747400erf
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Re: ATC Error Nearly Causes Crash near LAX

Sun Dec 25, 2016 10:31 pm

MIADeparture wrote:
This is the controller's fault. ( . ) Period. What you guys need are missing is the ATC side of the tape. The digital version. She turns EVA left to 180. They read it back correctly. She catches the mistake after the airplane starts moving NE bound, at 250 knots. Radar display lags actual action. So when she realized the plane was turning left, they were probably past 050 heading. Now you guys have the whole picture. She sucked. Period.

We all make mistakes. Pilots, controllers, mechanics. But what you see here isn't just a mistake. Its a lack of basics. Some controllers get through training with bare skills and bad basics (priorities, phraseology, control judgment). Most of these controllers do OK work with light to medium volume, but not complex, traffic. They, like airplanes, have an envelope, and they don't stray out of it. As long as they stay in their safe zone, its all good. But once they have to off-the-cuff something, its goes to hell. This EVA left turn took this controller out of her comfort zone. Asking the AAL go around "how do you read me?" while this EVA is STILL NORTHBOUND LEVEL AT 5000!!!! FT is a complete lack of basics.

If you guys saw the radar replay with the ATC side of the tape, you'd also reach the same conclusion. Bad day for her. Almost a last day for the EVA crew. Lesson to the flyers out there, its your ass. Not ours. So maintain your situational awareness and fear for your life, not your license.


The transcript where she said right 180 and they read back 180 was wrong?
 
MIADeparture
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Re: ATC Error Nearly Causes Crash near LAX

Sun Dec 25, 2016 11:05 pm

b747400erf wrote:
MIADeparture wrote:
This is the controller's fault. ( . ) Period. What you guys need are missing is the ATC side of the tape. The digital version. She turns EVA left to 180. They read it back correctly. She catches the mistake after the airplane starts moving NE bound, at 250 knots. Radar display lags actual action. So when she realized the plane was turning left, they were probably past 050 heading. Now you guys have the whole picture. She sucked. Period.

We all make mistakes. Pilots, controllers, mechanics. But what you see here isn't just a mistake. Its a lack of basics. Some controllers get through training with bare skills and bad basics (priorities, phraseology, control judgment). Most of these controllers do OK work with light to medium volume, but not complex, traffic. They, like airplanes, have an envelope, and they don't stray out of it. As long as they stay in their safe zone, its all good. But once they have to off-the-cuff something, its goes to hell. This EVA left turn took this controller out of her comfort zone. Asking the AAL go around "how do you read me?" while this EVA is STILL NORTHBOUND LEVEL AT 5000!!!! FT is a complete lack of basics.

If you guys saw the radar replay with the ATC side of the tape, you'd also reach the same conclusion. Bad day for her. Almost a last day for the EVA crew. Lesson to the flyers out there, its your ass. Not ours. So maintain your situational awareness and fear for your life, not your license.


The transcript where she said right 180 and they read back 180 was wrong?



Correct. ATC issues LEFT turn heading 180. Crew reads back LEFT turn heading 180. She corrects the turn after the crew turns and she sees it on radar.
 
b747400erf
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Re: ATC Error Nearly Causes Crash near LAX

Sun Dec 25, 2016 11:10 pm

MIADeparture wrote:
b747400erf wrote:
MIADeparture wrote:
This is the controller's fault. ( . ) Period. What you guys need are missing is the ATC side of the tape. The digital version. She turns EVA left to 180. They read it back correctly. She catches the mistake after the airplane starts moving NE bound, at 250 knots. Radar display lags actual action. So when she realized the plane was turning left, they were probably past 050 heading. Now you guys have the whole picture. She sucked. Period.

We all make mistakes. Pilots, controllers, mechanics. But what you see here isn't just a mistake. Its a lack of basics. Some controllers get through training with bare skills and bad basics (priorities, phraseology, control judgment). Most of these controllers do OK work with light to medium volume, but not complex, traffic. They, like airplanes, have an envelope, and they don't stray out of it. As long as they stay in their safe zone, its all good. But once they have to off-the-cuff something, its goes to hell. This EVA left turn took this controller out of her comfort zone. Asking the AAL go around "how do you read me?" while this EVA is STILL NORTHBOUND LEVEL AT 5000!!!! FT is a complete lack of basics.

If you guys saw the radar replay with the ATC side of the tape, you'd also reach the same conclusion. Bad day for her. Almost a last day for the EVA crew. Lesson to the flyers out there, its your ass. Not ours. So maintain your situational awareness and fear for your life, not your license.


The transcript where she said right 180 and they read back 180 was wrong?



Correct. ATC issues LEFT turn heading 180. Crew reads back LEFT turn heading 180. She corrects the turn after the crew turns and she sees it on radar.


Do you have a link? The transcript from the news stories say she corrected herself to 180 right, and the crew read back 180 right.
 
wjcandee
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Re: ATC Error Nearly Causes Crash near LAX

Sun Dec 25, 2016 11:22 pm

pilotkev1 wrote:
The controller acted appropriately. She gave clear instructions numerous times, and after being ignored every single time, she fell back on more simple instructions.

In her shoes, with a 777 barreling towards traffic first, then terrain, I'd make every effort to simplify my words if I thought for a second that an international flight crew wasn't understanding me. All she wanted was to prevent a collision at first, and then controlled flight into terrain. It had to be an incredibly intense situation for her, and props for her thinking to simplify her instructions in the heat of the moment.

She knew she had all the airspace and terrain clearance in the world if EVA15 would just turn right, or southbound. Turn right, turn southbound, do both, just don't crash.


For what it's worth, I totally disagree. She revealed minimal judgment and was completely overwhelmed, and fell back on yelling non-standard, nonsensical stuff at them. That's why they repeatedly asked her to confirm the heading she wants, while she's yelling Southbound! without a direction of turn. A very poor piece of work, reflective of an inability to handle a pressure situation. So time to send her somewhere where it won't get thick and she can't hurt anyone.

Zeke, I appreciate the tidbit about cardinal headings. I would note, however, that when you listen to the whole thing on liveatc (which misses some of the transmissions that the FAA has), they repeatedly ask her to do exactly what you say they are required to ask her to do: "Confirm Heading". They say it several times, and she gives them Southbound, without a direction of turn. Since the direction of turn was the whole issue here initially, she should be giving that to them clearly.
 
MIADeparture
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Re: ATC Error Nearly Causes Crash near LAX

Mon Dec 26, 2016 4:45 am

b747400erf wrote:
MIADeparture wrote:
b747400erf wrote:

The transcript where she said right 180 and they read back 180 was wrong?



Correct. ATC issues LEFT turn heading 180. Crew reads back LEFT turn heading 180. She corrects the turn after the crew turns and she sees it on radar.


Do you have a link? The transcript from the news stories say she corrected herself to 180 right, and the crew read back 180 right.


No link. FAA frowns upon the release of that info. If and when they do release it, you'll hear it. News gets transcript from Live ATC as well. I want to be clear on this: the initial turn to EVA was a LEFT 180. Crew reads back LEFT 180. Subsequently, she corrected her self and said RIGHT 180. Crew read back that, too, RIGHT 180. But that was too late, they were already almost northbound. So yes, she corrected herself and told them RIGHT 180, too late to change the outcome. Regardless, seconds later she issues a 270 heading to the crew as well compounding the confusion to the crew.....
 
b747400erf
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Re: ATC Error Nearly Causes Crash near LAX

Mon Dec 26, 2016 7:09 am

MIADeparture wrote:
b747400erf wrote:
MIADeparture wrote:


Correct. ATC issues LEFT turn heading 180. Crew reads back LEFT turn heading 180. She corrects the turn after the crew turns and she sees it on radar.


Do you have a link? The transcript from the news stories say she corrected herself to 180 right, and the crew read back 180 right.


No link. FAA frowns upon the release of that info. If and when they do release it, you'll hear it. News gets transcript from Live ATC as well. I want to be clear on this: the initial turn to EVA was a LEFT 180. Crew reads back LEFT 180. Subsequently, she corrected her self and said RIGHT 180. Crew read back that, too, RIGHT 180. But that was too late, they were already almost northbound. So yes, she corrected herself and told them RIGHT 180, too late to change the outcome. Regardless, seconds later she issues a 270 heading to the crew as well compounding the confusion to the crew.....


Your post before blamed her completely and said "she sucked."

Every person makes a mistake. She corrected it. The crew acknowledged the RIGHT turn correction but still did not turn right. This is the fault of the crew. You are blaming and insult the female controller for the crew not doing their job.
 
GoSharks
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Re: ATC Error Nearly Causes Crash near LAX

Mon Dec 26, 2016 7:45 am

b747400erf wrote:
MIADeparture wrote:
b747400erf wrote:

Do you have a link? The transcript from the news stories say she corrected herself to 180 right, and the crew read back 180 right.


No link. FAA frowns upon the release of that info. If and when they do release it, you'll hear it. News gets transcript from Live ATC as well. I want to be clear on this: the initial turn to EVA was a LEFT 180. Crew reads back LEFT 180. Subsequently, she corrected her self and said RIGHT 180. Crew read back that, too, RIGHT 180. But that was too late, they were already almost northbound. So yes, she corrected herself and told them RIGHT 180, too late to change the outcome. Regardless, seconds later she issues a 270 heading to the crew as well compounding the confusion to the crew.....


Your post before blamed her completely and said "she sucked."

Every person makes a mistake. She corrected it. The crew acknowledged the RIGHT turn correction but still did not turn right. This is the fault of the crew. You are blaming and insult the female controller for the crew not doing their job.

What about the 270 heading instruction that followed a few seconds after the right turn instruction?
 
b747400erf
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Re: ATC Error Nearly Causes Crash near LAX

Mon Dec 26, 2016 9:18 am

GoSharks wrote:
b747400erf wrote:
MIADeparture wrote:

No link. FAA frowns upon the release of that info. If and when they do release it, you'll hear it. News gets transcript from Live ATC as well. I want to be clear on this: the initial turn to EVA was a LEFT 180. Crew reads back LEFT 180. Subsequently, she corrected her self and said RIGHT 180. Crew read back that, too, RIGHT 180. But that was too late, they were already almost northbound. So yes, she corrected herself and told them RIGHT 180, too late to change the outcome. Regardless, seconds later she issues a 270 heading to the crew as well compounding the confusion to the crew.....


Your post before blamed her completely and said "she sucked."

Every person makes a mistake. She corrected it. The crew acknowledged the RIGHT turn correction but still did not turn right. This is the fault of the crew. You are blaming and insult the female controller for the crew not doing their job.

What about the 270 heading instruction that followed a few seconds after the right turn instruction?


They were still heading north and at that point she wanted to turn them back to the west away from the mountains and traffic out of ONT.
 
wn676
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Re: ATC Error Nearly Causes Crash near LAX

Mon Dec 26, 2016 12:20 pm

b747400erf wrote:
GoSharks wrote:
b747400erf wrote:

Your post before blamed her completely and said "she sucked."

Every person makes a mistake. She corrected it. The crew acknowledged the RIGHT turn correction but still did not turn right. This is the fault of the crew. You are blaming and insult the female controller for the crew not doing their job.

What about the 270 heading instruction that followed a few seconds after the right turn instruction?


They were still heading north and at that point she wanted to turn them back to the west away from the mountains and traffic out of ONT.


And they were heading north because at the point she realized what was happening and then subsequently attempted to correct the situation, that's the direction they were pointed; it was a direct consequence of her instructions. She turns them right as they are still flying north coming out of the left turn. Then turns them left as they are still pointed north now coming into a right turn after just coming out of a left turn. It's my understanding, and seemingly now confirmed by the actual FAA data as opposed to FR24 and LiveATC playback, that the EVA crew appears to initially keep flying north as a result of the constantly changing instructions.

By my count there are at least two controllers that have posted on this thread that blame the controller in this situation, all with well-reasoned explanations for why it appears EVA did not immediately turn southbound. She gave the wrong turn to the EVA crew, then proceeded to give contradicting turns to try and correct her mistake, before completely breaking down into the "turn south now" routine.

Did the EVA crew lose situational awareness? Yes, partly as a result of trying to follow the controller's explicitly terrible instructions, and then by attempting to confirm her instructions. But the fact remains: the controller sucked. People who do that same job say she sucked. As a result of her actions, and a cascading breakdown in communication, a plane almost flew into a mountain. Why that's still hard for people to accept in this thread is a mystery to me.

A serious question for airline pilots here: at what point would you have taken it upon yourself to turn the aircraft to a heading you deemed as more appropriate over the controller's instructions, given the circumstances?
Tiny, unreadable text leaves ample room for interpretation.
 
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longhauler
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Re: ATC Error Nearly Causes Crash near LAX

Mon Dec 26, 2016 1:57 pm

I am still confused ... they were given a heading of 180. Left, right, whatever. But still, the clearance was heading 180.

Why were they flying north?
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
wn676
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Re: ATC Error Nearly Causes Crash near LAX

Mon Dec 26, 2016 2:03 pm

longhauler wrote:
I am still confused ... they were given a heading of 180. Left, right, whatever. But still, the clearance was heading 180.

Why were they flying north?


They were initially flying east, so a left turn to 180 would have brought them past north at some point. As they were coming around in the left turn and pointing north-northeast, that happened to be right around the time the controller issued the right-then-left-then what are you doing instructions.
Tiny, unreadable text leaves ample room for interpretation.
 
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longhauler
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Re: ATC Error Nearly Causes Crash near LAX

Mon Dec 26, 2016 2:03 pm

wn676 wrote:
A serious question for airline pilots here: at what point would you have taken it upon yourself to turn the aircraft to a heading you deemed as more appropriate over the controller's instructions, given the circumstances?

A terrain warning or a TCAS Resolution Advisory overrules an ATC clearance or instruction.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
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longhauler
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Re: ATC Error Nearly Causes Crash near LAX

Mon Dec 26, 2016 2:06 pm

wn676 wrote:
They were initially flying east, so a left turn to 180 would have brought them past north at some point. As they were coming around in the left turn and pointing north-northeast, that happened to be right around the time the controller issued the right-then-left-then what are you doing instructions.

Fair ball .. but is that what was happening?

Was it actually a left 270 to heading 180? The radar plot showed them north for a long time, not turning and passing through north.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
Passedv1
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Re: ATC Error Nearly Causes Crash near LAX

Mon Dec 26, 2016 2:09 pm

wn676 wrote:
b747400erf wrote:
GoSharks wrote:
What about the 270 heading instruction that followed a few seconds after the right turn instruction?


They were still heading north and at that point she wanted to turn them back to the west away from the mountains and traffic out of ONT.


And they were heading north because at the point she realized what was happening and then subsequently attempted to correct the situation, that's the direction they were pointed; it was a direct consequence of her instructions. She turns them right as they are still flying north coming out of the left turn. Then turns them left as they are still pointed north now coming into a right turn after just coming out of a left turn. It's my understanding, and seemingly now confirmed by the actual FAA data as opposed to FR24 and LiveATC playback, that the EVA crew appears to initially keep flying north as a result of the constantly changing instructions.

By my count there are at least two controllers that have posted on this thread that blame the controller in this situation, all with well-reasoned explanations for why it appears EVA did not immediately turn southbound. She gave the wrong turn to the EVA crew, then proceeded to give contradicting turns to try and correct her mistake, before completely breaking down into the "turn south now" routine.

Did the EVA crew lose situational awareness? Yes, partly as a result of trying to follow the controller's explicitly terrible instructions, and then by attempting to confirm her instructions. But the fact remains: the controller sucked. People who do that same job say she sucked. As a result of her actions, and a cascading breakdown in communication, a plane almost flew into a mountain. Why that's still hard for people to accept in this thread is a mystery to me.

A serious question for airline pilots here: at what point would you have taken it upon yourself to turn the aircraft to a heading you deemed as more appropriate over the controller's instructions, given the circumstances?


Which brings me back to my original post. I think she said fly south intending for them to make their own decision as to what direction.

I think many on here are trying to place blame in the singularity. I think their is plenty of blame to go around. It seems you have the pilots on the board blaming Eva and the controllers on the the board blaming ATC.

For me what it comes down to is FAR 91.3 - PIC responsibility. That Captains responsibility is to keep that airplane away from the terrain, period.

ATC's roll primarily is traffic seperation.

What if hypothetically the left turn was initially correct and she said TL 360 intending to issue a subsequent TL 270 for a left downwind departure. There is then a stuck mic on the frequency and the word doesn't get out in time. Does EVA just keep plowing straight ahead heading 360? No, the Captain would be expected to use his emergency authority and turn away from the terrain.

In this situation the Captain commited the bigger foul and allowed his airplane to get dangerously close to the hills. The controller issued a bad clearence and corrected herself. Regardless of how he got there, regardless of the bread crumbs that were laid out before him, it was still the captains responsibility to not be so close to those hills.
 
wn676
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Re: ATC Error Nearly Causes Crash near LAX

Mon Dec 26, 2016 2:14 pm

longhauler wrote:
wn676 wrote:
A serious question for airline pilots here: at what point would you have taken it upon yourself to turn the aircraft to a heading you deemed as more appropriate over the controller's instructions, given the circumstances?

A terrain warning or a TCAS Resolution Advisory overrules an ATC clearance or instruction.


Fair enough.

So given that EVA was in a full left turn, then instructed to turn right, then instructed again to turn left, already apparently with a faster than normal airspeed, how long would you say is reasonable, given the time it physically takes to reverse the turns, to assess/resolve what you're seeing vs what you're being told, and make that judgement? Again, serious question; not trying to place place blame where it isn't due.
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longhauler
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Re: ATC Error Nearly Causes Crash near LAX

Mon Dec 26, 2016 2:24 pm

wn676 wrote:
Fair enough.

So given that EVA was in a full left turn, then instructed to turn right, then instructed again to turn left, already apparently with a faster than normal airspeed, how long would you say is reasonable, given the time it physically takes to reverse the turns, to assess/resolve what you're seeing vs what you're being told, and make that judgement? Again, serious question; not trying to place place blame where it isn't due.

The TCAS and EGPWS systems are designed to give the pilots time to make evasive actions depending on the actual aircraft in which it is installed. Although a very different function between the two, they both start with a warning, that increases with intensity until a flat out resolution is issued. Pilots are expected to act on that resolution.

However, pilots would likely start querying ATC once the first warning is issued.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
highflier92660
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Re: ATC Error Nearly Causes Crash near LAX

Mon Dec 26, 2016 2:39 pm

I don't care whether or not the crew was able to converse at ICAO level 4 English (or even Shakespearean play certified) there was clear and present danger and confusion over the controller's colloquial use of southbound as opposed to giving a left or right turn to a heading. She further complicated the communication by asking them what they were doing; a twist on the decades old negative ATC retort "what are your intensions?"

Like the LAX tower controller back in 1991 that landed a SkyWest Metro on to a Boeing 737 on 24L, this woman may find herself back on the job one day after further training and a location reassignment.
 
wn676
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Re: ATC Error Nearly Causes Crash near LAX

Mon Dec 26, 2016 2:41 pm

Passedv1 wrote:
wn676 wrote:
b747400erf wrote:

They were still heading north and at that point she wanted to turn them back to the west away from the mountains and traffic out of ONT.


And they were heading north because at the point she realized what was happening and then subsequently attempted to correct the situation, that's the direction they were pointed; it was a direct consequence of her instructions. She turns them right as they are still flying north coming out of the left turn. Then turns them left as they are still pointed north now coming into a right turn after just coming out of a left turn. It's my understanding, and seemingly now confirmed by the actual FAA data as opposed to FR24 and LiveATC playback, that the EVA crew appears to initially keep flying north as a result of the constantly changing instructions.

By my count there are at least two controllers that have posted on this thread that blame the controller in this situation, all with well-reasoned explanations for why it appears EVA did not immediately turn southbound. She gave the wrong turn to the EVA crew, then proceeded to give contradicting turns to try and correct her mistake, before completely breaking down into the "turn south now" routine.

Did the EVA crew lose situational awareness? Yes, partly as a result of trying to follow the controller's explicitly terrible instructions, and then by attempting to confirm her instructions. But the fact remains: the controller sucked. People who do that same job say she sucked. As a result of her actions, and a cascading breakdown in communication, a plane almost flew into a mountain. Why that's still hard for people to accept in this thread is a mystery to me.

A serious question for airline pilots here: at what point would you have taken it upon yourself to turn the aircraft to a heading you deemed as more appropriate over the controller's instructions, given the circumstances?


Which brings me back to my original post. I think she said fly south intending for them to make their own decision as to what direction.

I think many on here are trying to place blame in the singularity. I think their is plenty of blame to go around. It seems you have the pilots on the board blaming Eva and the controllers on the the board blaming ATC.

For me what it comes down to is FAR 91.3 - PIC responsibility. That Captains responsibility is to keep that airplane away from the terrain, period.

ATC's roll primarily is traffic seperation.

What if hypothetically the left turn was initially correct and she said TL 360 intending to issue a subsequent TL 270 for a left downwind departure. There is then a stuck mic on the frequency and the word doesn't get out in time. Does EVA just keep plowing straight ahead heading 360? No, the Captain would be expected to use his emergency authority and turn away from the terrain.

In this situation the Captain commited the bigger foul and allowed his airplane to get dangerously close to the hills. The controller issued a bad clearence and corrected herself. Regardless of how he got there, regardless of the bread crumbs that were laid out before him, it was still the captains responsibility to not be so close to those hills.


Yes, I agree that they ultimately seemed too caught up in following ATC instructions as opposed to flying the aircraft first until they were dangerously close to the terrain.

To me, between the controller and EVA, they both did wrong in exceptional ways. My only point is that the series of failures seems to have been put into motion and exacerbated by the controller, followed and made even worse by the delayed judgement of EVA to take control of the situation. How easy it was for them the recognize what was going on, I'm not sure; obviously they were expecting to head southbound, it was the getting there that was the issue. Likewise I'm sure the radar lag wasn't helping on the ATC end. It's easy to want to place the blame squarely on a single action, and I think that's what has been carrying all of these posts.
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MIADeparture
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Re: ATC Error Nearly Causes Crash near LAX

Mon Dec 26, 2016 3:30 pm

b747400erf wrote:
MIADeparture wrote:
b747400erf wrote:

Do you have a link? The transcript from the news stories say she corrected herself to 180 right, and the crew read back 180 right.


No link. FAA frowns upon the release of that info. If and when they do release it, you'll hear it. News gets transcript from Live ATC as well. I want to be clear on this: the initial turn to EVA was a LEFT 180. Crew reads back LEFT 180. Subsequently, she corrected her self and said RIGHT 180. Crew read back that, too, RIGHT 180. But that was too late, they were already almost northbound. So yes, she corrected herself and told them RIGHT 180, too late to change the outcome. Regardless, seconds later she issues a 270 heading to the crew as well compounding the confusion to the crew.....


Your post before blamed her completely and said "she sucked."

Every person makes a mistake. She corrected it. The crew acknowledged the RIGHT turn correction but still did not turn right. This is the fault of the crew. You are blaming and insult the female controller for the crew not doing their job.


This is the fault of the controller. If you want to blame the crew, then go ahead. I don't care either way. But remember, I "might" have seen the radar and voice replay, you didn't. I also work in this business, also with foreign pilots in busy airspace. There are many great controllers in our national airspace. There are also bad ones. I stand by the fact that she sucked. Its not an insult. The actions she took speak for themselves. Yes, she corrected a crew who was in a left turn to a 180 heading. They got to 010 when she told them to expedite the right turn. Then she goes back seconds later and tells them to turn left to 270. Seconds later its "what are you doing? Turn southbound. Southbound now". You realize these pilots are spinning the heading bug left and right with madness and confusion? After this transmission she talks to other airplanes, each time an airplane replied EVA can be heard keyed up over them asking which way to turn. Her prioritizing other aircraft by speaking to them instead of the 777 headed northbound still at 5000 was WRONG. Life and death WRONG. But if you feel comfortable putting you family on the back of a plane and launching them into her airspace...then thats it.
 
chimborazo
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Re: ATC Error Nearly Causes Crash near LAX

Mon Dec 26, 2016 4:09 pm

The part I find most incredible about this is that the pilots appear to be confused about what directions they are instructed to take and yet continue towards the mountain...

What if there had been radio failure/someone stuck a PTT instead of the messy situation with the instructions/read backs etc? Would they have just continued flying on into the mountain?

I listen to a lot of US ATC and, frankly, it's often poor and unclear (and often quite amusing). However, had this been a U.S. carrier not receiving the best service here they would quite clearly have stated: "Ma'am, we are heading towards a mountain. We are climbing to xxx and turning xxx." Or something similar. It is ultimately the captain's responsibility to maintain safe flight regardless of what ATC says. Of course they are there to direct and provide the environment for safe flight but the pilots have to have situational awareness precisely because they may get a bad/unclear clearance or a breakdown in communication.

Would be very interesting to see what the GPWS was saying.

In any case, it seems the captain wasn't demonstrating decisive command of the aircraft.
 
D L X
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Re: ATC Error Nearly Causes Crash near LAX

Mon Dec 26, 2016 4:18 pm

MIADeparture wrote:
No link. FAA frowns upon the release of that info. If and when they do release it, you'll hear it. News gets transcript from Live ATC as well. I want to be clear on this: the initial turn to EVA was a LEFT 180. Crew reads back LEFT 180. Subsequently, she corrected her self and said RIGHT 180. Crew read back that, too, RIGHT 180. But that was too late, they were already almost northbound.


Almost northbound? Not according to the evidence.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tFdXax7Zh_g

At ~1:15, the controller says XXXX 180, climb and maintain 7000. BR15 reads back Turn Left 180, climb and maintain 7000.
Before executing said turn, BR15 requests clearance for a high speed climb at ~1:25, which is granted.

BR15 passes AA2671 and shows evidence of a turn at ~1:41.

At ~1:45, the controller corrects BR15 to turn right. (We can debate about whether she's fixing her mistake or fixing BR15's mistake, but there is no debate that BR15 was not turning through 360 when this command was issued, if this evidence is correct.)

BR15 says he is clearing heading 010 around ~2:00, when the controller directs the AC out of BR15's path. Why that command would be criticized is beyond me.

MIADeparture wrote:
Regardless, seconds later she issues a 270 heading to the crew as well compounding the confusion to the crew.....

Seconds later?

The controller initially told BR15 to turn 180 at ~1:15. The controller issues the command left to 270 at ~2:28, which BR15 appears to not do. That's not exactly what most would connotate as seconds. Even if counting from the expedite command (~1:50) there's still almost 40 seconds before the command to turn 270, including another intervening command that BR15 reads back and appears to follow at ~2:10.
MIADeparture wrote:
Her prioritizing other aircraft by speaking to them instead of the 777 headed northbound still at 5000 was WRONG. Life and death WRONG.


Clearly, life and death because 300 people died that night. Right?

I love coming onto this site because I get some great perspectives from industry folks like you. But I have to admit, your response this time seems a little agendized.
 
MIADeparture
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Re: ATC Error Nearly Causes Crash near LAX

Mon Dec 26, 2016 5:54 pm

D L X wrote:
MIADeparture wrote:
No link. FAA frowns upon the release of that info. If and when they do release it, you'll hear it. News gets transcript from Live ATC as well. I want to be clear on this: the initial turn to EVA was a LEFT 180. Crew reads back LEFT 180. Subsequently, she corrected her self and said RIGHT 180. Crew read back that, too, RIGHT 180. But that was too late, they were already almost northbound.


Almost northbound? Not according to the evidence.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tFdXax7Zh_g

At ~1:15, the controller says XXXX 180, climb and maintain 7000. BR15 reads back Turn Left 180, climb and maintain 7000.
Before executing said turn, BR15 requests clearance for a high speed climb at ~1:25, which is granted.

BR15 passes AA2671 and shows evidence of a turn at ~1:41.

At ~1:45, the controller corrects BR15 to turn right. (We can debate about whether she's fixing her mistake or fixing BR15's mistake, but there is no debate that BR15 was not turning through 360 when this command was issued, if this evidence is correct.)
What heading would you "assume" this aircraft is flying when she corrects the heading? This youtube video clearly has them at 010 heading at the time the crew reply with the, now corrected and then expedited, right 180 turn.

BR15 says he is clearing heading 010 around ~2:00, when the controller directs the AC out of BR15's path. Why that command would be criticized is beyond me.
You mean 1:55, in response to the controller telling them for the first time to turn right? Im confused, are you proving my point? From 1:55 to 2:10, that exchange is awful. "AC 788 expedite your turn. Stop your climb and turn..correction, expedite your climb and turn H360". "Left 360 stop the climb at 7000 AC788" "EVA 015 stop your climb".

MIADeparture wrote:
Regardless, seconds later she issues a 270 heading to the crew as well compounding the confusion to the crew.....

Seconds later?
30 seconds later the crew gets a left turn. Didn't you watch the video you linked?

The controller initially told BR15 to turn 180 at ~1:15. The controller issues the command left to 270 at ~2:28, which BR15 appears to not do. That's not exactly what most would connotate as seconds. Even if counting from the expedite command (~1:50) there's still almost 40 seconds before the command to turn 270, including another intervening command that BR15 reads back and appears to follow at ~2:10.
MIADeparture wrote:
Her prioritizing other aircraft by speaking to them instead of the 777 headed northbound still at 5000 was WRONG. Life and death WRONG.


Clearly, life and death because 300 people died that night. Right?
Yes. Because they aren't part of that mountain today, doesn't mean this business isn't lethal.

https://youtu.be/pAWy9mjnrYM
https://youtu.be/kF_x4IU8Ig4
These two accidents are the pilot's fault. But if you had a different controller on the radio that day, they would have enjoyed Christmas dinner last night.


I love coming onto this site because I get some great perspectives from industry folks like you. But I have to admit, your response this time seems a little agendized.
 
Passedv1
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Re: ATC Error Nearly Causes Crash near LAX

Mon Dec 26, 2016 6:37 pm

highflier92660 wrote:
controller's colloquial use of [i]southbound


Sorry...perhaps it is not standard terminology but how is "turn southbound" a coloquial use of the term. There were probably 4 pilots on that flight deck...not one of them had enough english ability to understand "turn southbound"? Really...WTF-Over.
 
D L X
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Re: ATC Error Nearly Causes Crash near LAX

Mon Dec 26, 2016 6:54 pm

MIADeparture wrote:
You mean 1:55, in response to the controller telling them for the first time to turn right? Im confused, are you proving my point? From 1:55 to 2:10, that exchange is awful. "AC 788 expedite your turn. Stop your climb and turn..correction, expedite your climb and turn H360". "Left 360 stop the climb at 7000 AC788" "EVA 015 stop your climb".

Well, yes! Those are commands to a different jet!

You criticized the controller talking to a different jet, when she was telling the other jet to expedite his turn to 360 and his climb to 12000 with the intention to send BR15 under it to the left 270. That strikes me as misplaced criticism.
 
sadde
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Re: ATC Error Nearly Causes Crash near LAX

Mon Dec 26, 2016 7:06 pm

Even if the controller mistakenly issued an instruction to turn LEFT heading 180, shouldn't these guys have been somewhat hesitant? Any departure briefing should have included the fact that there is terrain to the north of the airport, as well as departures from the north complex. It's hard not to feel like a simple (but easily correctable) mistake by atc compounded what seems to be a big lack of situational awareness in the cockpit.
 
MIADeparture
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Re: ATC Error Nearly Causes Crash near LAX

Mon Dec 26, 2016 7:47 pm

D L X wrote:
MIADeparture wrote:
You mean 1:55, in response to the controller telling them for the first time to turn right? Im confused, are you proving my point? From 1:55 to 2:10, that exchange is awful. "AC 788 expedite your turn. Stop your climb and turn..correction, expedite your climb and turn H360". "Left 360 stop the climb at 7000 AC788" "EVA 015 stop your climb".

Well, yes! Those are commands to a different jet!

You criticized the controller talking to a different jet, when she was telling the other jet to expedite his turn to 360 and his climb to 12000 with the intention to send BR15 under it to the left 270. That strikes me as misplaced criticism.



1) I was criticizing the fact that if your hear the exchange from 1:55 to 2:10 it sounds awful.
2) The criticism of her talking to another jet while EVA is still northbound at 5000.
A) Look at the video at 2:30. She gives EVA the west turn. "Seconds later" (2:43) she said "what are you doing? turn southbound and stop your climb". So far so good? EVA responds with a question..."left or right heading.." 2:59 she RE-ISSUES Air Canada 12000. She chose to speak to the wrong airplane.
B) At 3:10, EVA asks again to confirm a heading. At 3:27, instead of climbing the (still level at 5000, and with no traffic to stop him because aircanada is out of 12000) EVA and verifying he's in the turn. Or maybe issue a low altitude warning (which is now going off on the radar scope). She goes to AAL who was a go around is not a priority. She chose to speak to the wrong plane.
C) At 4:10 Cathay is spoken to next. You can hear EVA's pilots in the background asking for a heading. She chose poorly again.

I rest my case. You defend her DLX. Im done. (drops mic)
 
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FlyingJhawk
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Re: ATC Error Nearly Causes Crash near LAX

Mon Dec 26, 2016 8:10 pm

Sure the controller made the situation more confusing than it should have been. But I pray that I have a flight crew that prevents an ATC mistake like this from being a disaster. I would like to think that the crew would have been especially aware since the eastward departure flow is the exception at LAX. Being vectored, accidentally or otherwise, into mountains? Confirm the ATC instructions!

You really want me, my crew and more than 300 passengers at 5000' heading into a mountain range? How does that not come into play here?

It was posted earlier in this thread, but it certainly appears that a different pilot was on the frequency at the end of the recording. Thank god for that or the title of this thread would have been much different.
 
b747400erf
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Re: ATC Error Nearly Causes Crash near LAX

Mon Dec 26, 2016 9:36 pm

MIADeparture wrote:

This is the fault of the controller. If you want to blame the crew, then go ahead. I don't care either way. But remember, I "might" have seen the radar and voice replay, you didn't. I also work in this business, also with foreign pilots in busy airspace. There are many great controllers in our national airspace. There are also bad ones. I stand by the fact that she sucked. Its not an insult. The actions she took speak for themselves. Yes, she corrected a crew who was in a left turn to a 180 heading. They got to 010 when she told them to expedite the right turn. Then she goes back seconds later and tells them to turn left to 270. Seconds later its "what are you doing? Turn southbound. Southbound now". You realize these pilots are spinning the heading bug left and right with madness and confusion? After this transmission she talks to other airplanes, each time an airplane replied EVA can be heard keyed up over them asking which way to turn. Her prioritizing other aircraft by speaking to them instead of the 777 headed northbound still at 5000 was WRONG. Life and death WRONG. But if you feel comfortable putting you family on the back of a plane and launching them into her airspace...then thats it.


You are not the first or the last low post number and new account to claim some professional job in the industry. Whether the pilots thought left or right turn to 180, THEY DID NOT TURN TO 180! If they had executed a left turn to 180, they would have been fine. Blaming the controller in this instance is completely wrong. You are over dramatising this situation like another is and all for what? The only thing I can see is how both of you are just obsessed with making sure everyone knows it is a SHE. Is it the fact that a SHE is working in this industry that you want everyone to know is not up for the job?
 
b747400erf
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Re: ATC Error Nearly Causes Crash near LAX

Mon Dec 26, 2016 9:39 pm

wn676 wrote:

And they were heading north because at the point she realized what was happening and then subsequently attempted to correct the situation, that's the direction they were pointed; it was a direct consequence of her instructions. She turns them right as they are still flying north coming out of the left turn. Then turns them left as they are still pointed north now coming into a right turn after just coming out of a left turn. It's my understanding, and seemingly now confirmed by the actual FAA data as opposed to FR24 and LiveATC playback, that the EVA crew appears to initially keep flying north as a result of the constantly changing instructions.

By my count there are at least two controllers that have posted on this thread that blame the controller in this situation, all with well-reasoned explanations for why it appears EVA did not immediately turn southbound. She gave the wrong turn to the EVA crew, then proceeded to give contradicting turns to try and correct her mistake, before completely breaking down into the "turn south now" routine.

Did the EVA crew lose situational awareness? Yes, partly as a result of trying to follow the controller's explicitly terrible instructions, and then by attempting to confirm her instructions. But the fact remains: the controller sucked. People who do that same job say she sucked. As a result of her actions, and a cascading breakdown in communication, a plane almost flew into a mountain. Why that's still hard for people to accept in this thread is a mystery to me.

A serious question for airline pilots here: at what point would you have taken it upon yourself to turn the aircraft to a heading you deemed as more appropriate over the controller's instructions, given the circumstances?


You are just like the other guy, making sure everyone knows it is a SHE. I have no other explanation for a crew being told turn to a heading of 180 and yet, going north you justify because the controller was confusing. If they turned LEFT to 180 they would have not caused a possible accident and this would have been a non story. You are also justifying the crew not understanding basic English long before she said "turn south"

I question whether some people here pulling out this "I am in the profession" card are just doing it to play the appeal to authority fallacy. No crew who reads a turn to 180 heading, yet continues north and acts confused even after reading back the correction from LEFT to RIGHT 180, should be the good guy in this story. The turn south now comment was long after they did not follow basic instructions. A turn to 180 was never attempted, the crew for this reason is at fault.
 
smaragdz
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Re: ATC Error Nearly Causes Crash near LAX

Mon Dec 26, 2016 10:08 pm

longhauler wrote:
I am still confused ... they were given a heading of 180. Left, right, whatever. But still, the clearance was heading 180.

Why were they flying north?


A question for the pro's: how easy would it be to make a 180 degree heading mistake? ie that they believed they were flying heading 180 and lost situational awareness.
 
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AirlineCritic
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Re: ATC Error Nearly Causes Crash near LAX

Mon Dec 26, 2016 10:10 pm

wn676 wrote:
To me, between the controller and EVA, they both did wrong in exceptional ways. My only point is that the series of failures seems to have been put into motion and exacerbated by the controller, followed and made even worse by the delayed judgement of EVA to take control of the situation. How easy it was for them the recognize what was going on, I'm not sure; obviously they were expecting to head southbound, it was the getting there that was the issue. Likewise I'm sure the radar lag wasn't helping on the ATC end. It's easy to want to place the blame squarely on a single action, and I think that's what has been carrying all of these posts.


:checkmark:
 
b747400erf
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Re: ATC Error Nearly Causes Crash near LAX

Mon Dec 26, 2016 10:47 pm

AirlineCritic wrote:
wn676 wrote:
To me, between the controller and EVA, they both did wrong in exceptional ways. My only point is that the series of failures seems to have been put into motion and exacerbated by the controller, followed and made even worse by the delayed judgement of EVA to take control of the situation. How easy it was for them the recognize what was going on, I'm not sure; obviously they were expecting to head southbound, it was the getting there that was the issue. Likewise I'm sure the radar lag wasn't helping on the ATC end. It's easy to want to place the blame squarely on a single action, and I think that's what has been carrying all of these posts.


:checkmark:


But that is wrong. Left or right, they were told, and read back, TWICE, the turn to 180. And yet they continued to head north. After take off heading 70, told to turn to 90, then turn 180. So why stop when heading north? This was a failure of the crew to understand what the controller was saying simple as that.
 
wn676
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Re: ATC Error Nearly Causes Crash near LAX

Tue Dec 27, 2016 12:52 am

b747400erf wrote:
AirlineCritic wrote:
wn676 wrote:
To me, between the controller and EVA, they both did wrong in exceptional ways. My only point is that the series of failures seems to have been put into motion and exacerbated by the controller, followed and made even worse by the delayed judgement of EVA to take control of the situation. How easy it was for them the recognize what was going on, I'm not sure; obviously they were expecting to head southbound, it was the getting there that was the issue. Likewise I'm sure the radar lag wasn't helping on the ATC end. It's easy to want to place the blame squarely on a single action, and I think that's what has been carrying all of these posts.


:checkmark:


But that is wrong. Left or right, they were told, and read back, TWICE, the turn to 180. And yet they continued to head north. After take off heading 70, told to turn to 90, then turn 180. So why stop when heading north? This was a failure of the crew to understand what the controller was saying simple as that.


Not sure how you still don't see that they were following the controller's instructions. They had not yet completed the turn to 180 when the controller instructed them to turn right. At that point they were roughly pointed north, because of this very crucial piece of information: they were instructed to turn left. It seems like a small inconsequential little thing, but it's inportant to note because it explains why they turned north. When you are flying east, and you are instructed to turn left to head south, you very obviously must past north at some point in the turn. Now, it takes time to roll out of a left turn and into a right turn. Now that they were in a right turn - still roughly flying north mind you because again the plane cannot instantaneously change directions - they were instructed to again turn left to 270. Now they're coming out of the right turn and back to a left turn. That is why they were flying north. They were complying with the controller's explicit instructions.
Tiny, unreadable text leaves ample room for interpretation.

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