AirstairFear
Posts: 52
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 7:08 am

Re: ATC Error Nearly Causes Crash near LAX

Tue Dec 27, 2016 1:13 am

b747400erf wrote:
You are just like the other guy, making sure everyone knows it is a SHE.


All he did was use the pronoun "she". And he didn't put it in caps like you did nor call attention to it whatsoever. Since the controller in question is a woman, that pronoun is the proper one to use in English. What's your deal with it? What would you rather him do, say "he/she" over and over, pretending the gender of the ATCO is not known, even when it is? Perhaps you'd like the voice electronically disguised in the recordings too?
 
wn676
Posts: 1705
Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2005 5:33 am

Re: ATC Error Nearly Causes Crash near LAX

Tue Dec 27, 2016 1:15 am

b747400erf wrote:
wn676 wrote:

And they were heading north because at the point she realized what was happening and then subsequently attempted to correct the situation, that's the direction they were pointed; it was a direct consequence of her instructions. She turns them right as they are still flying north coming out of the left turn. Then turns them left as they are still pointed north now coming into a right turn after just coming out of a left turn. It's my understanding, and seemingly now confirmed by the actual FAA data as opposed to FR24 and LiveATC playback, that the EVA crew appears to initially keep flying north as a result of the constantly changing instructions.

By my count there are at least two controllers that have posted on this thread that blame the controller in this situation, all with well-reasoned explanations for why it appears EVA did not immediately turn southbound. She gave the wrong turn to the EVA crew, then proceeded to give contradicting turns to try and correct her mistake, before completely breaking down into the "turn south now" routine.

Did the EVA crew lose situational awareness? Yes, partly as a result of trying to follow the controller's explicitly terrible instructions, and then by attempting to confirm her instructions. But the fact remains: the controller sucked. People who do that same job say she sucked. As a result of her actions, and a cascading breakdown in communication, a plane almost flew into a mountain. Why that's still hard for people to accept in this thread is a mystery to me.

A serious question for airline pilots here: at what point would you have taken it upon yourself to turn the aircraft to a heading you deemed as more appropriate over the controller's instructions, given the circumstances?


You are just like the other guy, making sure everyone knows it is a SHE. I have no other explanation for a crew being told turn to a heading of 180 and yet, going north you justify because the controller was confusing. If they turned LEFT to 180 they would have not caused a possible accident and this would have been a non story. You are also justifying the crew not understanding basic English long before she said "turn south"

I question whether some people here pulling out this "I am in the profession" card are just doing it to play the appeal to authority fallacy. No crew who reads a turn to 180 heading, yet continues north and acts confused even after reading back the correction from LEFT to RIGHT 180, should be the good guy in this story. The turn south now comment was long after they did not follow basic instructions. A turn to 180 was never attempted, the crew for this reason is at fault.


Wow, that's way off base, but you were the one who spoke it into existence.

If that's all you can derive from these posts, great. I'm only using "her" and "she" because the controller was in fact a female, but from now on to avoid any confusion and misplaced judgements, I shall refer to the controller as "the controller."
Tiny, unreadable text leaves ample room for interpretation.
 
kalvado
Posts: 2165
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Re: ATC Error Nearly Causes Crash near LAX

Tue Dec 27, 2016 1:28 am

One thing I still missing:
How familiar are the pilots with airport area? Do they get briefed about mountains on the north, or that is outside normal flight path and is irrelevant? I can imagine pilots are very familiar with their base airport - especially if they live in that area - but how much do they know about current destination?
 
ucdtim17
Posts: 571
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Re: ATC Error Nearly Causes Crash near LAX

Tue Dec 27, 2016 1:31 am

Surely the crew must have some basic geographical knowledge about any airport they fly to (e.g. - the ocean is here, the airport is here, downtown is here, mountains are here). Is there any indication they knew they were flying towards mountains?
 
asdf
Posts: 504
Joined: Tue Mar 18, 2014 12:03 am

Re: ATC Error Nearly Causes Crash near LAX

Tue Dec 27, 2016 1:37 am

kalvado wrote:
One thing I still missing:
How familiar are the pilots with airport area? Do they get briefed about mountains on the north, or that is outside normal flight path and is irrelevant? I can imagine pilots are very familiar with their base airport - especially if they live in that area - but how much do they know about current destination?


they are supposed to know
i guess as part of the pre flight breefing

thatfor they can be blamed
they lost there situation awareness
this is not acceptable

far most of blame i see at the controllers side

looks like she only was focused on seperating planes but forgot about mountains ...
 
hayzel777
Posts: 614
Joined: Wed Mar 16, 2016 3:18 am

Re: ATC Error Nearly Causes Crash near LAX

Tue Dec 27, 2016 2:38 am

asdf wrote:
kalvado wrote:
One thing I still missing:
How familiar are the pilots with airport area? Do they get briefed about mountains on the north, or that is outside normal flight path and is irrelevant? I can imagine pilots are very familiar with their base airport - especially if they live in that area - but how much do they know about current destination?


they are supposed to know
i guess as part of the pre flight breefing

thatfor they can be blamed
they lost there situation awareness
this is not acceptable

far most of blame i see at the controllers side

looks like she only was focused on seperating planes but forgot about mountains ...


She did not forget about the mountains. Her panicking calls to turn southbound were to avoid mountains.
 
BravoOne
Posts: 3686
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Re: ATC Error Nearly Causes Crash near LAX

Tue Dec 27, 2016 3:47 am

So many armchair experts with one or two exceptions. 747ERF is not a pilot, or controller much less an accident/incident investigator but he is ready to hang them all. Give it a rest folks the experts will sort this one out in due time.
 
D L X
Posts: 12515
Joined: Thu May 27, 1999 3:30 am

Re: ATC Error Nearly Causes Crash near LAX

Tue Dec 27, 2016 3:48 am

MIADeparture wrote:
D L X wrote:
MIADeparture wrote:
You mean 1:55, in response to the controller telling them for the first time to turn right? Im confused, are you proving my point? From 1:55 to 2:10, that exchange is awful. "AC 788 expedite your turn. Stop your climb and turn..correction, expedite your climb and turn H360". "Left 360 stop the climb at 7000 AC788" "EVA 015 stop your climb".

Well, yes! Those are commands to a different jet!

You criticized the controller talking to a different jet, when she was telling the other jet to expedite his turn to 360 and his climb to 12000 with the intention to send BR15 under it to the left 270. That strikes me as misplaced criticism.



1) I was criticizing the fact that if your hear the exchange from 1:55 to 2:10 it sounds awful.
2) The criticism of her talking to another jet while EVA is still northbound at 5000.
A) Look at the video at 2:30. She gives EVA the west turn. "Seconds later" (2:43) she said "what are you doing? turn southbound and stop your climb". So far so good? EVA responds with a question..."left or right heading.." 2:59 she RE-ISSUES Air Canada 12000. She chose to speak to the wrong airplane.
B) At 3:10, EVA asks again to confirm a heading. At 3:27, instead of climbing the (still level at 5000, and with no traffic to stop him because aircanada is out of 12000) EVA and verifying he's in the turn. Or maybe issue a low altitude warning (which is now going off on the radar scope). She goes to AAL who was a go around is not a priority. She chose to speak to the wrong plane.
C) At 4:10 Cathay is spoken to next. You can hear EVA's pilots in the background asking for a heading. She chose poorly again.

I rest my case. You defend her DLX. Im done. (drops mic)

Calm down, tough guy.

What percentage of blame do you place on the crew here? Zero? Fifty?
 
MIADeparture
Posts: 21
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Re: ATC Error Nearly Causes Crash near LAX

Tue Dec 27, 2016 4:35 am

D L X wrote:
MIADeparture wrote:
D L X wrote:
Well, yes! Those are commands to a different jet!

You criticized the controller talking to a different jet, when she was telling the other jet to expedite his turn to 360 and his climb to 12000 with the intention to send BR15 under it to the left 270. That strikes me as misplaced criticism.



1) I was criticizing the fact that if your hear the exchange from 1:55 to 2:10 it sounds awful.
2) The criticism of her talking to another jet while EVA is still northbound at 5000.
A) Look at the video at 2:30. She gives EVA the west turn. "Seconds later" (2:43) she said "what are you doing? turn southbound and stop your climb". So far so good? EVA responds with a question..."left or right heading.." 2:59 she RE-ISSUES Air Canada 12000. She chose to speak to the wrong airplane.
B) At 3:10, EVA asks again to confirm a heading. At 3:27, instead of climbing the (still level at 5000, and with no traffic to stop him because aircanada is out of 12000) EVA and verifying he's in the turn. Or maybe issue a low altitude warning (which is now going off on the radar scope). She goes to AAL who was a go around is not a priority. She chose to speak to the wrong plane.
C) At 4:10 Cathay is spoken to next. You can hear EVA's pilots in the background asking for a heading. She chose poorly again.

I rest my case. You defend her DLX. Im done. (drops mic)

Calm down, tough guy.

What percentage of blame do you place on the crew here? Zero? Fifty?


I still fail to see why we want to blame the crew for following an ATC instruction and being placed in the position they were in. I guess you want me to place some blame on them.

Its their fault because english is their second language. And although you can learn a second language in a class, being machine gunned instructions that you must receive entirely while simultaneously translating them is tough at 5000ft and 280knts.

Its their fault because their culture rewards near total obedience. Where as an American pilot would've told you to make up your damn mind and pick a heading. Or , he'd probably just turn and climb anyways. These guys weren't lost. They listened and tried to obey what they could understand from the controller. Just listen to their speech rate at the end. When he/she/it (see what i did there b747400erf?) started climbing to 6 then 7 thousand? They're yelling it back cause the GWPS has started to go off. Thats when obedience kicked off and survival kicked in.

But thats just my low post new account opinion.
 
dynamo12
Posts: 65
Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2008 6:07 am

Re: ATC Error Nearly Causes Crash near LAX

Tue Dec 27, 2016 5:38 am

For all the folks beating up on the EVA crew (who ask repeatedly for a heading)... What is turn southbound? Seriously - is this due south? Or more southerly than current direction? I can turn south 5 degrees. I can turn southbound 20 degrees. Is turn southbound a due south heading? I'm a native english speaker - but what exactly do things like turn southbound mean?

I also found the EVA crews english pronunciation very clean. Maybe it's the recording, but it sounds as if the controllers mike isn't setup properly - it's a bit muffled. As a non-native speaker
that may have also added to confusion. And listening to readbacks would have helped big time - it just feels like controller is rushing along on these things.

I thought there was a lot of schooling prior even to getting into the ATC career path where controllers worked a lot of this stuff out. This seems foundational.
 
b747400erf
Posts: 3135
Joined: Wed Jun 19, 2013 4:33 am

Re: ATC Error Nearly Causes Crash near LAX

Tue Dec 27, 2016 6:38 am

wn676 wrote:

Wow, that's way off base, but you were the one who spoke it into existence.

If that's all you can derive from these posts, great. I'm only using "her" and "she" because the controller was in fact a female, but from now on to avoid any confusion and misplaced judgements, I shall refer to the controller as "the controller."


Do you have a better explanation for how you can fault a controller for giving a 180 heading request and the crew continuing to fly north?
 
b747400erf
Posts: 3135
Joined: Wed Jun 19, 2013 4:33 am

Re: ATC Error Nearly Causes Crash near LAX

Tue Dec 27, 2016 6:38 am

dynamo12 wrote:
For all the folks beating up on the EVA crew (who ask repeatedly for a heading)... What is turn southbound? Seriously - is this due south? Or more southerly than current direction? I can turn south 5 degrees. I can turn southbound 20 degrees. Is turn southbound a due south heading? I'm a native english speaker - but what exactly do things like turn southbound mean?

I also found the EVA crews english pronunciation very clean. Maybe it's the recording, but it sounds as if the controllers mike isn't setup properly - it's a bit muffled. As a non-native speaker
that may have also added to confusion. And listening to readbacks would have helped big time - it just feels like controller is rushing along on these things.

I thought there was a lot of schooling prior even to getting into the ATC career path where controllers worked a lot of this stuff out. This seems foundational.


This has been discussed many times, the turn south comment was after more than 4 times giving a 180 heading turn request. The go south was to make them avoid the mountains.
 
b747400erf
Posts: 3135
Joined: Wed Jun 19, 2013 4:33 am

Re: ATC Error Nearly Causes Crash near LAX

Tue Dec 27, 2016 6:39 am

MIADeparture wrote:
D L X wrote:
MIADeparture wrote:


1) I was criticizing the fact that if your hear the exchange from 1:55 to 2:10 it sounds awful.
2) The criticism of her talking to another jet while EVA is still northbound at 5000.
A) Look at the video at 2:30. She gives EVA the west turn. "Seconds later" (2:43) she said "what are you doing? turn southbound and stop your climb". So far so good? EVA responds with a question..."left or right heading.." 2:59 she RE-ISSUES Air Canada 12000. She chose to speak to the wrong airplane.
B) At 3:10, EVA asks again to confirm a heading. At 3:27, instead of climbing the (still level at 5000, and with no traffic to stop him because aircanada is out of 12000) EVA and verifying he's in the turn. Or maybe issue a low altitude warning (which is now going off on the radar scope). She goes to AAL who was a go around is not a priority. She chose to speak to the wrong plane.
C) At 4:10 Cathay is spoken to next. You can hear EVA's pilots in the background asking for a heading. She chose poorly again.

I rest my case. You defend her DLX. Im done. (drops mic)

Calm down, tough guy.

What percentage of blame do you place on the crew here? Zero? Fifty?


I still fail to see why we want to blame the crew for following an ATC instruction and being placed in the position they were in. I guess you want me to place some blame on them.

Its their fault because english is their second language. And although you can learn a second language in a class, being machine gunned instructions that you must receive entirely while simultaneously translating them is tough at 5000ft and 280knts.

Its their fault because their culture rewards near total obedience. Where as an American pilot would've told you to make up your damn mind and pick a heading. Or , he'd probably just turn and climb anyways. These guys weren't lost. They listened and tried to obey what they could understand from the controller. Just listen to their speech rate at the end. When he/she/it (see what i did there b747400erf?) started climbing to 6 then 7 thousand? They're yelling it back cause the GWPS has started to go off. Thats when obedience kicked off and survival kicked in.

But thats just my low post new account opinion.


If your English is so bad you do not understand a turn to 180 request then you have no business in the cockpit. That is all on the crew, end of the story.
 
sadde
Posts: 5
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Re: ATC Error Nearly Causes Crash near LAX

Tue Dec 27, 2016 8:25 am

ucdtim17 wrote:
Surely the crew must have some basic geographical knowledge about any airport they fly to (e.g. - the ocean is here, the airport is here, downtown is here, mountains are here). Is there any indication they knew they were flying towards mountains?


Looking at the FAA chart for the VTU7.RZS departure, it isn't immediately apparent that there's high terrain to the northeast of the field. The lost comms procedures do not make clear whether or not pilots should make a left or right turn direct VTU, but do stipulate a climb up into the flight levels. Not sure if the Jeppesen equivalents lack such depictions. Off the bat, this seems to support the pilots' case.

HOWEVER, approach plates as well as the area charts around LAX show the MSA where this all occurred being 7700MSL, along with OROCAs from 10,400-12,400. Pilots should have easily picked up on an MSA that much higher than field elevation during their arrival at lax prior to this all occurring. Moreover, fully briefing the departure with a glance at both the sid AND the area chart would have made it pretty clear that terrain exists to the north/northeast.

Really tough for me to see how anyone can excuse this kind of lack of situational awareness on the flight crew's part, even if the controller made a mistake (which she made every effort to correct).
 
wn676
Posts: 1705
Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2005 5:33 am

Re: ATC Error Nearly Causes Crash near LAX

Tue Dec 27, 2016 11:47 am

b747400erf wrote:
wn676 wrote:

Wow, that's way off base, but you were the one who spoke it into existence.

If that's all you can derive from these posts, great. I'm only using "her" and "she" because the controller was in fact a female, but from now on to avoid any confusion and misplaced judgements, I shall refer to the controller as "the controller."


Do you have a better explanation for how you can fault a controller for giving a 180 heading request and the crew continuing to fly north?


What parts of my last few replies don't at least plausibly explain it? EVA seems to be doing exactly what the controller is asking: they turned left, then they started to turn right, then they started to turn left again, then they used their discretion and climbed and turned southbound. That covers pretty much all the bases here for "why did they fly north?" The gaps in between? Again, speculating, but my observations are that:

1) the simulation playback in the YT video has considerable lag and does not show the instantaneous changes in the aircraft's flying

2) it takes a measurable amount of time for an aircraft of that size and at that speed to reverse a turn

3) the situation became increasingly confusing to the crew after multiple conflicting instructions were given with unnecessary admonishments.

And I'll say it again just to be clear, this is not meant to absolve them completely of blame, just explain their actions.

You keep saying that they never turned to 180. That's correct; it appears that there was no way they could have ever completed that turn to the left as instructed in the time it took to be issued the second instruction to turn right. Likewise, it is for this same reason that they never turned to 270. Is that not something you agree with, and why?
Tiny, unreadable text leaves ample room for interpretation.
 
wn676
Posts: 1705
Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2005 5:33 am

Re: ATC Error Nearly Causes Crash near LAX

Tue Dec 27, 2016 1:20 pm

longhauler wrote:
wn676 wrote:
They were initially flying east, so a left turn to 180 would have brought them past north at some point. As they were coming around in the left turn and pointing north-northeast, that happened to be right around the time the controller issued the right-then-left-then what are you doing instructions.

Fair ball .. but is that what was happening?

Was it actually a left 270 to heading 180? The radar plot showed them north for a long time, not turning and passing through north.


That's my interpretation, yes, that they were issued and subsequently began to execute a left 270 turn to heading 180.

As for passing through north, what I was saying was that if you are flying at heading 090 and then instructed to turn left to heading 180, that turn will at some point have you passing 360. Here it seems they are told to reverse the turn before they pass that heading; there seems to be a slight inflection point in the FR24 plot (the screenshot, not from the video) just above the Interstate 5 symbol that would indicate they had begun to turn right. They do, however, appear to turn through 360 as they turn left on the instruction to fly heading 270.
Tiny, unreadable text leaves ample room for interpretation.
 
MIADeparture
Posts: 21
Joined: Sat Apr 20, 2013 4:46 am

Re: ATC Error Nearly Causes Crash near LAX

Tue Dec 27, 2016 4:02 pm

b747400erf wrote:
MIADeparture wrote:
D L X wrote:
Calm down, tough guy.

What percentage of blame do you place on the crew here? Zero? Fifty?


I still fail to see why we want to blame the crew for following an ATC instruction and being placed in the position they were in. I guess you want me to place some blame on them.

Its their fault because english is their second language. And although you can learn a second language in a class, being machine gunned instructions that you must receive entirely while simultaneously translating them is tough at 5000ft and 280knts.

Its their fault because their culture rewards near total obedience. Where as an American pilot would've told you to make up your damn mind and pick a heading. Or , he'd probably just turn and climb anyways. These guys weren't lost. They listened and tried to obey what they could understand from the controller. Just listen to their speech rate at the end. When he/she/it (see what i did there b747400erf?) started climbing to 6 then 7 thousand? They're yelling it back cause the GWPS has started to go off. Thats when obedience kicked off and survival kicked in.

But thats just my low post new account opinion.


If your English is so bad you do not understand a turn to 180 request then you have no business in the cockpit. That is all on the crew, end of the story.


Can you rephrase this statement: "If your English is so bad you do not understand a turn to 180 request then you have no business in the cockpit."
I can't decipher your point.
 
HVN2HEL2LAX
Posts: 15
Joined: Tue Dec 27, 2016 9:26 pm

Re: ATC Error Nearly Causes Crash near LAX

Tue Dec 27, 2016 10:01 pm

Everyday the U.S. ATC system hangs onto life by one scanty, shallow, gasp of air.

The new generation is too busy looking for raises and needing time to post "Air Traffic Controller" on their Tinder profile. The older generation is burnt out and busy counting every day/hour/minute/second until retirement while management is busy giving each other hjs and meeting to schedule their next meeting.

The system is boggled down and plagued by expensive, bloated, rotting fat with, I kid you not, issues at every single layer. Funding, hiring, training, infrastructure, equipment, policies, people, and the overall organizational structure is broken.

The "service" you hear on the recording is a result of all the above. And, as laziness and automation make their way into more and more facilities, this type of "Controlling" will become the norm.

As for the air crew, sometimes I wish they would fly the airplane the way it needs to be flown and f the rest.
 
User avatar
ksfo777
Posts: 11
Joined: Sat Aug 20, 2016 9:16 pm

Re: ATC Error Nearly Causes Crash near LAX

Tue Dec 27, 2016 11:38 pm

I really wonder whether some of you had any flying experience. The vitriolic language really is scary, it sounds like someone who refused to own up to mistakes or responsibilities. Furthermore, I doubt some of you even bothered to listen to the radio, or perhaps you just didn't understand the radio communication.

Let me state this, I am a pilot. We are ultimately responsible for the safe operation of our plane.

Before we get off the ground, we must be fully aware of the airspace, terrain. This is the basic. If we hear potentially conflicting instructions from ATC, we're supposed to ask for clarification.

The EVA Air crew ACKNOWLEDGED ATC instructions a number of times to turn 180. This is indisputable. The crew clearly lost situational awareness perhaps because they were busy doing something else??!! The 777 cockpit should also be warning them about terrain as they approach the mountains.

I'm not saying ATC bear no responsibility but not the sole responsibility. It's almost like blaming the GPS when it tells you to drive off the cliff where you should have some common sense.
 
Passedv1
Posts: 649
Joined: Sun Oct 07, 2012 3:40 am

Re: ATC Error Nearly Causes Crash near LAX

Wed Dec 28, 2016 11:19 am

If you get a 270 turn instruction either ATC states "long way"...emphasizes LEFT TURN...if a controller casually gives you a long way around turn it would be normal to question it.

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