Flybe confirms it is to fly from London Heathrow Terminal 2 to Aberdeen & Edinburgh (up to 3x + 4x daily) from 26 March 2017.

Flybe's flights from London Heathrow are using "remedy slots" as BA is required to forfeit following the purchase of BMI by its parent company, IAG.

Should be interesting to watch against the bloodbath with British Airways!

Already mentioned in another thread but I guess this confims things.

ABERDEEN (ABZ)
Mon-Fri (3 flights a day)
· Dep ABZ 0645 - Arr LHR 0900
· Dep ABZ 1500 - Arr LHR 1715
· Dep ABZ 1720 - Arr LHR 1935

· Dep LHR 0945 - Arr ABZ 1145
· Dep LHR 1805 - Arr ABZ 2005
· Dep LHR 2020 - Arr ABZ 2220

Sat (1 flight a day)
· Dep ABZ 0645 - Arr LHR 0900
· Dep LHR 0945 - Arr ABZ 1145

Sun (2 flights a day)
· Dep ABZ 0645 - Arr LHR 0900
· Dep ABZ 1720 - Arr LHR 1935

· Dep LHR 0945 - Arr ABZ 1145
· Dep LHR 2020 - Arr ABZ 2220

EDINBURGH (EDI)
Mon-Fri (4 flights a day)
· Dep EDI 0600 - Arr LHR 0800
· Dep EDI 0835 - Arr LHR 1035
· Dep EDI 1530 - Arr LHR 1730
· Dep EDI 1800 - Arr LHR 2000

· Dep LHR 0845 - Arr EDI 1025
· Dep LHR 1120 - Arr EDI 1300
· Dep LHR 1820 - Arr EDI 2000
· Dep LHR 2045 - Arr EDI 2225

Sat (2 flights a day)
· Dep EDI 0600 - Arr LHR 0800
· Dep EDI 1530 - Arr LHR 1730

· Dep LHR 0845 - Arr EDI 1025
· Dep LHR 1820 - Arr EDI 2000

Sun (3 flights a day)
· Dep EDI 0835 - Arr LHR 1035
· Dep EDI 1530 - Arr LHR 1730
· Dep EDI 1800 - Arr LHR 2000

· Dep LHR 1120 - Arr EDI 1300
· Dep LHR 1820 - Arr EDI 2000
· Dep LHR 2045 - Arr EDI 2225

Is it just me or are some of the flight times quite long? Some of the EDI-LHR flights are down for over 2 hours...

Eirules wrote:

Is it just me or are some of the flight times quite long? Some of the EDI-LHR flights are down for over 2 hours...

DHC-8s I assume.

Good to see some new entrant at LHR. It kind of reminds me of when Dan Air was flying 1-11s to Inverness...

Will be interesting to see how this plays out, I for one hope they can make it work.

Should be interesting to watch against the bloodbath with British Airways!

Unless BE start pricing far more aggressively they're not going to last 12 months against BA at LHR. Capacity, the fact BA slots for the same route are up to an hour shorter and price is too much for them to fight against...

Omg. Wouldn't their E195s be more suitable?

Are these the slots of little Red.

Softaero wrote:

Omg. Wouldn't their E195s be more suitable?

Nothing wrong with the DHC-8s. Had very pleasant flights from SOU to AMS with FlyBe earlier this year.

They'd need to be cheaper than BA's fares, but for peak times that shouldn't be difficult.

BE can make a go of this where Virgin couldn't.

For a start, the planes are a better size. Secondly, this will depend on large numbers of transfer passengers to work as point-to-point is increasingly less relevant on domestic UK traffic out of London. BE has a decent selection of codeshares to help fill the planes. Finally, they are not subbing it out to a carrier which is always going to cost more than doing it yourself. VS had to pay EI to operate the route and EI weren't doing it out of the goodness of their hearts.

The main point is the way in which long distance rail is now a much more viable proposition. Why struggle out to LHR from your central London location when it takes four hours to Edinburgh from Kings Cross? Even Aberdeen will be a faster rail trip when the new Azuma trains start running in early 2018. It means that the domestics are increasingly used for connections and BE can pick those up from its codeshare partners.

Channex757 wrote:

point-to-point is increasingly less relevant on domestic UK traffic out of London.
Why struggle out to LHR from your central London location when it takes four hours to Edinburgh from Kings Cross?

I agree if you live in Central London, but many of us do not (a lot of people heading to EDI are not even within the tube footprint and are from Bucks (like me), Berks, Herts, Surrey, Sussex etc.). The EZY flights from STN, LTN, LGW to EDI are all mostly domestic pax as are the FR flights from STN and BA from LCY. That's a lot of domestic pax.

Moving back on topic, as a LHR-EDI commuter I would really like BE to be successful but fear they will not be unless they price very aggressively and I'm not sure the cost structures in the UK (LHR fees, APD etc.) will allow that.

Meh. Pretty useless if you're in London and going to Aberdeen for a day's work in the morning. And not great for Edinburgh either.
And a two hour/2h15m block time! Good way to cream off the lowest yielding traffic.

Channex757 wrote:

BE can make a go of this where Virgin couldn't.

For a start, the planes are a better size. Secondly, this will depend on large numbers of transfer passengers to work as point-to-point is increasingly less relevant on domestic UK traffic out of London. BE has a decent selection of codeshares to help fill the planes. Finally, they are not subbing it out to a carrier which is always going to cost more than doing it yourself. VS had to pay EI to operate the route and EI weren't doing it out of the goodness of their hearts.

The main point is the way in which long distance rail is now a much more viable proposition. Why struggle out to LHR from your central London location when it takes four hours to Edinburgh from Kings Cross? Even Aberdeen will be a faster rail trip when the new Azuma trains start running in early 2018. It means that the domestics are increasingly used for connections and BE can pick those up from its codeshare partners.

I hope BE can make a go of it, but sadly all the reasons you cite why they might, will actually hurt them.
Although smaller planes are cheaper to operate, the fees at LHR are such that aircraft of <100 seats are charged so prohibitively that operations are doomed to losses. LHR have admitted this. They want bigger aircraft - with more passengers to spend within the terminals.
Connecting passengers pay very small, almost nominal fares. Esetially just the taxes. BD and VS found this out.
BE have to gain a good chunk of point 2 point passengers, ideally on flexible, expensive tickets. How they are going to manage this with props and a limited network is beyond me.

Out of interest, is BE officially a low cost or low fare airline? (I think there is a technical difference between two two) or a full-service airline? I know they are a 'regional' airline, but it can still be low cost/fare or full service.

Thanks.

Are they definitely using the Dash 8s? As mentioned up thread the charges applied by LHR would surely render that a losing proposition?

Armodeen wrote:

Are they definitely using the Dash 8s? As mentioned up thread the charges applied by LHR would surely render that a losing proposition?

Its a EDI based DH8 for EDI services

One would expect that BE can fill these flights with and the small prorating will throw off enough cash to cover costs. With the VS, EY, EK, AI, and SQ partnerships alone they can probably fill a Dash-8 without having to resort to much local O&D. I'll bet they add NZ and AC as partners. Remember they only need to run these exact routes for a few years. After that they an fly anywhere. Also if the routes take off, I would expect to see larger planes (i.e. E195) moved onto the route.

I am surprised BE didn't do this earlier or that VS themselves didn't do this (contract with a smaller jet/prop operator rather than EI) as they made it half way through the EDI/ABZ restrictions. The rules require that the slots be used for EDI/ABZ/NCE/CAI/DME-SVO. However that rule was only for six IATA seasons--or three years. After that they can be used anywhere in Europe. I always expected that VS would use them until 2017 and then DL (through VS) would find a way to swap them with KLM or AF for AF/KLM's slots, which could be used for anywhere.

BrianDromey wrote:

I hope BE can make a go of it, but sadly all the reasons you cite why they might, will actually hurt them.
Although smaller planes are cheaper to operate, the fees at LHR are such that aircraft of <100 seats are charged so prohibitively that operations are doomed to losses. LHR have admitted this. They want bigger aircraft - with more passengers to spend within the terminals.
Connecting passengers pay very small, almost nominal fares. Esetially just the taxes. BD and VS found this out.
BE have to gain a good chunk of point 2 point passengers, ideally on flexible, expensive tickets. How they are going to manage this with props and a limited network is beyond me.

They do have the option of moving the EMB195 onto the routes if they pick up enough business.

If they keep costs low enough (hard to do but possible) then they could pick up some transfer traffic, which they actively seek out elsewhere (MAN for instance) so it must work for them at their cost structure. They have arrangements with both Emirates and Etihad for instance, and could even take on the odd BA punter if their operations are heavily booked. Because of that Emirates tie-up they could even potentially find Qantas passengers headed their way.

Starting the routes with the Dash 8 fleet seems sensible, but it is those underutilised EMB195 frames which are the most likely to appear.

I could never understand how VS expected it to pay by using a painted up Aer Lingus plane and their crews. The costs must have been a massive drag on the operation. BE will have an advantage as they don't pay mainline rates and obviously fuel burn no matter which plane they use from the fleet will be much lower.

One thing that may help them some is that they are an Avios partner. Whilst BA Executive Club members won't earn Tier Points, Flybe give Avios on the cash value of the tickets (excluding taxes). Therefore, particularly with their "All In" fares, the passenger will sometimes earn more Avios taking Flybe over British Airways.

I'm not sure we'll see BA frequent flyers deserting en masse but being an Avios partner certainly won't be a hindrance to their entry at LHR.

Mark

bananaboy wrote:

I'm not sure we'll see BA frequent flyers deserting en masse but being an Avios partner certainly won't be a hindrance to their entry at LHR.

I am very sure you will not....

So who's going to do it next year? EasyJet?

They actually could throw in Nice too...

Armodeen wrote:

Are they definitely using the Dash 8s? As mentioned up thread the charges applied by LHR would surely render that a losing proposition?

Will this be the only turboprop service into LHR? I think the last ones were AF but that as far as I know is now all jet.

They do have the option of moving the EMB195 onto the routes if they pick up enough business.

Do they? Aren't they mostly tied up in some money-printing deals with desperate regional airports like CWL, DSA and EXT - which must be more lucrative than fighting BA on trunk routes from LHR.

jumpjets wrote:

Armodeen wrote:

Are they definitely using the Dash 8s? As mentioned up thread the charges applied by LHR would surely render that a losing proposition?

Will this be the only turboprop service into LHR? I think the last ones were AF but that as far as I know is now all jet.

Yeah. Has been for a while. The only other similar size airliners are the KLM F70s which show up during the day.

According to their wikipedia article Flybe has a codeshare agreement with VS. If these flights carry the VS code I can see them being successful. Both destinations are also not served by EK, so carrying the EK code might make sense too.

this prices not bad for peak season

1 VS 104Y 10JUL M ATLLHR SS1 725P 845A 11JUL T /DCVS /E
2 BE2122Y 11JUL T LHRABZ SS1 945A 1145A /DCBE /E
3 BE2121Y 20JUL Q ABZLHR SS1 645A 900A /DCBE /E
4 VS 103Y 20JUL Q LHRATL SS1 1100A 330P /DCVS /E
WPNC«
10JUL DEPARTURE DATE-----LAST DAY TO PURCHASE 23DEC/1327
BASE FARE TAXES/FEES/CHARGES TOTAL
1- USD861.00 821.46XT USD1682.46ADT
XT 518.00YQ 35.60US 5.50YC 7.00XY
3.96XA 5.60AY 187.40GB 53.90UB
4.50XF
861.00 821.46 1682.46T

Will this be the only turboprop service into LHR? I think the last ones were AF but that as far as I know is now all jet.

Yeah. Has been for a while. The only other similar size airliners are the KLM F70s which show up during the day.

I still see turboprops into LHR occasionally but it's very rare. I work in Windsor with a good view of the approach from my desk and saw what I think was a Dash-8 heading in to land just last week. I'm guessing perhaps they're equipment substitutions for smaller jets? Or do any visit LHR for maintenance?

It will be nice to see the occasional FlyBe turboprop in and out - a change from the usual sights.

[threeid][/threeid]

mcr wrote:

Will this be the only turboprop service into LHR? I think the last ones were AF but that as far as I know is now all jet.

Yeah. Has been for a while. The only other similar size airliners are the KLM F70s which show up during the day.

I still see turboprops into LHR occasionally but it's very rare. I work in Windsor with a good view of the approach from my desk and saw what I think was a Dash-8 heading in to land just last week. I'm guessing perhaps they're equipment substitutions for smaller jets? Or do any visit LHR for maintenance?

It will be nice to see the occasional FlyBe turboprop in and out - a change from the usual sights.

Some off peak (weekend) Swiss Geneva flights have been operated by Austrian Dash 8s recently

Ethiopian had a Q400 delivery divert in last week.

Channex757 wrote:

BE can make a go of this where Virgin couldn't.

For a start, the planes are a better size. Secondly, this will depend on large numbers of transfer passengers to work as point-to-point is increasingly less relevant on domestic UK traffic out of London. BE has a decent selection of codeshares to help fill the planes. Finally, they are not subbing it out to a carrier which is always going to cost more than doing it yourself. VS had to pay EI to operate the route and EI weren't doing it out of the goodness of their hearts.

The main point is the way in which long distance rail is now a much more viable proposition. Why struggle out to LHR from your central London location when it takes four hours to Edinburgh from Kings Cross? Even Aberdeen will be a faster rail trip when the new Azuma trains start running in early 2018. It means that the domestics are increasingly used for connections and BE can pick those up from its codeshare partners.

Subbing out is not always more expensive, VS with little red had virtually zero set up costs, if they had employed their own staff, sourced their own planes etc, they would have lost far more cash than they did.

If BE end up relying on codeshares to fill the planes they will need a large pen for the red ink on the account book. If you want to fly say Atlanta to Aberdeen, the vast majority will book the flight with DL not BE. DL then take the lions share and BE pick up the crumbs.

rutankrd wrote:

[threeid][/threeid]

mcr wrote:

Will this be the only turboprop service into LHR? I think the last ones were AF but that as far as I know is now all jet.

Yeah. Has been for a while. The only other similar size airliners are the KLM F70s which show up during the day.

I still see turboprops into LHR occasionally but it's very rare. I work in Windsor with a good view of the approach from my desk and saw what I think was a Dash-8 heading in to land just last week. I'm guessing perhaps they're equipment substitutions for smaller jets? Or do any visit LHR for maintenance?

It will be nice to see the occasional FlyBe turboprop in and out - a change from the usual sights.

Some off peak (weekend) Swiss Geneva flights have been operated by Austrian Dash 8s recently

For the last two or three years Swiss has operated a Summer Saturday afternoon Dash 8 flight GVA-LHR, I presume so they can use the displaced A320 on holiday routes, as business demand is low on Saturdays. No other props have been scheduled at LHR for years, probably since KLM Fokker 50s to RTM.

fcogafa wrote:

rutankrd wrote:

[threeid][/threeid]

mcr wrote:

I still see turboprops into LHR occasionally but it's very rare. I work in Windsor with a good view of the approach from my desk and saw what I think was a Dash-8 heading in to land just last week. I'm guessing perhaps they're equipment substitutions for smaller jets? Or do any visit LHR for maintenance?

It will be nice to see the occasional FlyBe turboprop in and out - a change from the usual sights.

Some off peak (weekend) Swiss Geneva flights have been operated by Austrian Dash 8s recently

For the last two or three years Swiss has operated a Summer Saturday afternoon Dash 8 flight GVA-LHR, I presume so they can use the displaced A320 on holiday routes, as business demand is low on Saturdays. No other props have been scheduled at LHR for years, probably since KLM Fokker 50s to RTM.

Almost certain there was an AF AT7 arrival not so many years ago around 2100, used to occasionally see it waiting to depart on the last EI DUB flight.

Not convinced that Little Red failed because the A320 was to much capacity.

BA seem to make it work with A319, which are not much smaller.

Little red had a low cost base and strong operating capability, but couldn't attract passengers paying a high enough fare to make this work.

Flybe on the Dash-8 will only attract pax from BA when fares are lower. Who would chose two hours on a prop to a horrid Heathrow bus to gate when a jet is quicker and with higher frequency and with Exec Club lounge access.

bennett123 wrote:

Not convinced that Little Red failed because the A320 was to much capacity.

BA seem to make it work with A319, which are not much smaller.

BA has all the feed and the ability to upguage if it needs to.

Virgin LR failed terribly with its feed!

fcogafa wrote:

For the last two or three years Swiss has operated a Summer Saturday afternoon Dash 8 flight GVA-LHR, I presume so they can use the displaced A320 on holiday routes, as business demand is low on Saturdays. No other props have been scheduled at LHR for years, probably since KLM Fokker 50s to RTM.

Thanks for the correction

bennett123 wrote:

Not convinced that Little Red failed because the A320 was to much capacity.

BA seem to make it work with A319, which are not much smaller.

But BA also has more than 1000% of the capacity at LHR...so BA is connecting you onto dozens and dozens of destinations.

I just did a dummy booking for April for a typical trip for me: LHR-EDI-LHR (Northbound Tuesday morning, Southbound Thursday evening - hand baggage only) and BA were about £15 (~15%) cheaper. I typically book ~3 weeks ahead, so it will be interesting to see how the pricing evolves as we get closer but currently it looks like I'll be sticking with BA and collecting the tier points.

Point is if VS could not make it work, then what makes BE think it can.

Also wonder about separation issues, both in terms of size/turbulence but also relative speed.

Not to be too negative but I cannot see this working.
BA has the monopoly and can dump capacity on these routes with the 76, cheaper fares and will run them out in 12 months or sooner.
Saying that, good luck to them though.

bennett123 wrote:

Also wonder about separation issues, both in terms of size/turbulence but also relative speed.

Relative speed is not an issue with the Q400; its approach speeds with the most commonly used flap setting - 15 - are on par with those of larger jets. In certain conditions (high landing weight + icing conditions), its minimum approach speed in this configuration can be higher than that of an A320 (up to 145 knots). Q400s are sequenced into jet traffic without any issues at numerous major airports in Europe (AMS, BRU, FRA, FCO, MUC, MXP, VIE, ZRH, ...). If need be, it can maintain up to 170 knots on approach in landing configuration - well beyond what even heavies reach in this phase.

Channex757 wrote:

The main point is the way in which long distance rail is now a much more viable proposition. Why struggle out to LHR from your central London location when it takes four hours to Edinburgh from Kings Cross? Even Aberdeen will be a faster rail trip when the new Azuma trains start running in early 2018. It means that the domestics are increasingly used for connections and BE can pick those up from its codeshare partners.

I'm not so sure about out that . . . for the Newcastle to London market, definitely, which is why the only air link between there and the capital is BA a few times a day to LHR (previously there was U2/BE to STN and BE/LS to LGW but all have been cut).

But for the London to Edinburgh/Glasgow market, from what I know the majority of passengers still fly. There's only one train that's 4 hours, most are still around 4 and a half, as opposed to from Newcastle where they're about 3 hours (fastest at 2 and a half). By the time you take the Metro to NCL, clear security, wait in the airport, fly to LHR, take the tube into Central London, it will not be any faster than the overall train journey, but you will likely shave an hour and a half off travel time by flying from Edinburgh.

And I don't think the Azuma services will necessarily be any faster either, the existing train stock can already get up to 140mph (which will be Azuma's top speed) but is restricted to 125 mph by lack of appropriate signalling. If the signalling situation is sorted out by the time of their introduction, then that would likely take at least a half hour off, but I have no idea as to what's actually going on with that . . .

VS and BE are now codesharing on the new ABZ and EDI routes to/from LHR. It's a shame there aren't further slots available at LHR as it may be beneficial for BE to move their LGW-NQY flight to LHR. Thoughts?

There will be further slots available if they operate EDI-LHR and ABZ-LHR for a minimum of 12 months under the terms of the remedy slot system.

Why do you think there will be further slots available in 12 months? The remedy slots are restricted to specific routes (only ABZ, EDI, MOW, NCE, RUH, CAI) and have to be operated for 6 consecutive IATA seasons before they can be used on any other routes. 6 IATA seasons amounts to 3 years. Even after the three years are up, and slots become grandfathered to the new operator, they can only be switched to other routes if the other routes are within Europe. If a one-year rule applied, VS would own the slots Little Red used as they managed two years, but they don't, do they. Instead the slots were returned to IAG. Of course using any of the remedy slots for CAI, MOW or RUH requires the permission of the government at the other end, and won't really work with BE's fleet of E195s and Q400s. They could apply for slots for NCE though, but easyJet are a fearsome competitor on LON-NCE.

Andy33, if you'd like to read the IAG/bmi competition remedies, please do so in full and then come back and tell me if your information is correct. I think you'll find one provision in the remedy slot agreement that you are overlooking. My posting is correct, no "ifs" or "buts" about it.

eicvd wrote:

fcogafa wrote:

rutankrd wrote:

[threeid][/threeid]

Some off peak (weekend) Swiss Geneva flights have been operated by Austrian Dash 8s recently

For the last two or three years Swiss has operated a Summer Saturday afternoon Dash 8 flight GVA-LHR, I presume so they can use the displaced A320 on holiday routes, as business demand is low on Saturdays. No other props have been scheduled at LHR for years, probably since KLM Fokker 50s to RTM.

Almost certain there was an AF AT7 arrival not so many years ago around 2100, used to occasionally see it waiting to depart on the last EI DUB flight.

'Almost certain there was an AF AT7 arrival not so many years ago around 2100'

I am assuming you meant 2001, well that was 16 years ago so not quite the 'not so many years ago' is it.

I think we're discussing recent operators of props at LHR not from 16 years ago.

Air France did operate ATR's at LHR during that period using off peak slots and they were slot holders more than anything else the same can be said with KLM when they frequently had scheduled operations using F50's on AMS-LHR.

Cunard wrote:

eicvd wrote:

fcogafa wrote:

For the last two or three years Swiss has operated a Summer Saturday afternoon Dash 8 flight GVA-LHR, I presume so they can use the displaced A320 on holiday routes, as business demand is low on Saturdays. No other props have been scheduled at LHR for years, probably since KLM Fokker 50s to RTM.

Almost certain there was an AF AT7 arrival not so many years ago around 2100, used to occasionally see it waiting to depart on the last EI DUB flight.

'Almost certain there was an AF AT7 arrival not so many years ago around 2100'

I am assuming you meant 2001, well that was 16 years ago so not quite the 'not so many years ago' is it.

I think we're discussing recent operators of props at LHR not from 16 years ago.

Air France did operate ATR's at LHR during that period using off peak slots and they were slot holders more than anything else the same can be said with KLM when they frequently had scheduled operations using F50's on AMS-LHR.

Why is your response so nasty?! He means 2100, the time (9pm) - not 2001. So your "assumption" is completely wrong. Air France used the ATR on Paris-Heathrow in 2009/2010.
https://www.businesstraveller.com/news/ ... g-flights/