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BWIAirport
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UA 2 scheduled stops in HNL

Thu Dec 22, 2016 7:19 pm

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/UAL2 ... /WSSS/PHNL

Apparently the past couple days United Airlines flight 2 has been stopping in Honolulu, presumably for refueling, on its trip from SIN to SFO. Interestingly, about an hour before the flight FlightAware has the route filed as SIN-HNL rather than SIN-SFO, with another leg filed separately for HNL-SFO.

For what it's worth, SQ32 (an Airbus A359) does not make that stop. I think I saw on a previous thread that UA's 789 was ideal for this route over the A359 because of less drag on the airframe, which makes this even more perplexing.

Why is UA scheduling fuel stops for this route on some days while SQ is not? The winds aloft data on SkyVector does not seem to indicate winds are a huge issue.
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codc10
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Re: UA 2 scheduled stops in HNL

Thu Dec 22, 2016 7:24 pm

The flight is initially filed SIN-HNL, then refiled all the way to SFO if at the 'recheck' point, the flight crew determines there is sufficient fuel to make it to SFO within all safety margins.

A fuel stop is definitely suboptimal with competition from SQ now. UAL will likely be weight restricting the flight more heavily than forecast.
 
flyguy84
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Re: UA 2 scheduled stops in HNL

Thu Dec 22, 2016 7:30 pm

UA2 only stopped in HNL once, and that was the flight originating on the 22nd from SIN. This was also not a fuel stop, it was related to crew duty issues.

Edit: The same goes for 12/10.
Last edited by flyguy84 on Thu Dec 22, 2016 7:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
SFO
 
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BWIAirport
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Re: UA 2 scheduled stops in HNL

Thu Dec 22, 2016 7:32 pm

flyguy84 wrote:
UA2 only stopped in HNL once, and that was the flight originating on the 22nd from SIN. This was also not a fuel stop, it was related to crew duty issues.

FlightAware also has the December 10 flight as SIN-HNL-SFO.
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SonomaFlyer
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Re: UA 2 scheduled stops in HNL

Thu Dec 22, 2016 7:33 pm

I would think it more likely that weight restrictions or fuel stops would be more likely west bound than east. Jet streams travel west to east so should (even south of the equator) be a benefit for UA 2 on the SIN-SFO flight.

We will likely not get the full scoop but I don't see how even fully loaded why they can't make this flight non-stop east bound.
 
flyguy84
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Re: UA 2 scheduled stops in HNL

Thu Dec 22, 2016 7:34 pm

BWIAirport wrote:
flyguy84 wrote:
UA2 only stopped in HNL once, and that was the flight originating on the 22nd from SIN. This was also not a fuel stop, it was related to crew duty issues.

FlightAware also has the December 10 flight as SIN-HNL-SFO.

Also related due to crew duty issues... these are not fuel stops. If one of the crew of four is ill or can't complete journey, the flight time is too long for a three man crew to complete. Thus, they stop in HNL for a planned re-crew.
SFO
 
Newbiepilot
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Re: UA 2 scheduled stops in HNL

Thu Dec 22, 2016 7:42 pm

SonomaFlyer wrote:
I would think it more likely that weight restrictions or fuel stops would be more likely west bound than east. Jet streams travel west to east so should (even south of the equator) be a benefit for UA 2 on the SIN-SFO flight.

We will likely not get the full scoop but I don't see how even fully loaded why they can't make this flight non-stop east bound.


I think the sick pilot explanation is more logical. There would not be an eastbound fuel stop unless there is a problem with the plane. Eastbound the flight is about 14 hours. It is closer to 17 hours westbound and that is where they run into weight restrictions.
 
BravoOne
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Re: UA 2 scheduled stops in HNL

Thu Dec 22, 2016 7:50 pm

flyguy84 wrote:
BWIAirport wrote:
flyguy84 wrote:
UA2 only stopped in HNL once, and that was the flight originating on the 22nd from SIN. This was also not a fuel stop, it was related to crew duty issues.

FlightAware also has the December 10 flight as SIN-HNL-SFO.

Also related due to crew duty issues... these are not fuel stops. If one of the crew of four is ill or can't complete journey, the flight time is too long for a three man crew to complete. Thus, they stop in HNL for a planned re-crew.



Kind of hard to believe that UAL has a crew standing by in HNL just in case they need to make a technical stop. i call the BS flag on that scenario,
 
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Re: UA 2 scheduled stops in HNL

Thu Dec 22, 2016 7:55 pm

BWIAirport wrote:
http://flightaware.com/live/flight/UAL2/history/20161222/0145Z/WSSS/PHNL

Apparently the past couple days United Airlines flight 2 has been stopping in Honolulu, presumably for refueling, on its trip from SIN to SFO. Interestingly, about an hour before the flight FlightAware has the route filed as SIN-HNL rather than SIN-SFO, with another leg filed separately for HNL-SFO.

For what it's worth, SQ32 (an Airbus A359) does not make that stop. I think I saw on a previous thread that UA's 789 was ideal for this route over the A359 because of less drag on the airframe, which makes this even more perplexing.

Why is UA scheduling fuel stops for this route on some days while SQ is not? The winds aloft data on SkyVector does not seem to indicate winds are a huge issue.


In general you can expect the A359 to have longer legs, but it can be weight restricted as well in the current version operated by SQ.
 
BostonBeau
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Re: UA 2 scheduled stops in HNL

Thu Dec 22, 2016 8:04 pm

Not sure why they are going to HNL for fuel. SIN-ANC-SFO is about 500 miles shorter than SIN-HNL-SFO.
 
codc10
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Re: UA 2 scheduled stops in HNL

Thu Dec 22, 2016 8:04 pm

BravoOne wrote:
flyguy84 wrote:
BWIAirport wrote:
FlightAware also has the December 10 flight as SIN-HNL-SFO.

Also related due to crew duty issues... these are not fuel stops. If one of the crew of four is ill or can't complete journey, the flight time is too long for a three man crew to complete. Thus, they stop in HNL for a planned re-crew.



Kind of hard to believe that UAL has a crew standing by in HNL just in case they need to make a technical stop. i call the BS flag on that scenario,


There are no crews standing by in HNL, but pilots can be deadheaded in on scheduled flights with adequate notice, which is certainly within the realm of possibility.
 
DaufuskieGuy
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Re: UA 2 scheduled stops in HNL

Thu Dec 22, 2016 8:06 pm

BravoOne wrote:
flyguy84 wrote:
BWIAirport wrote:
FlightAware also has the December 10 flight as SIN-HNL-SFO.

Also related due to crew duty issues... these are not fuel stops. If one of the crew of four is ill or can't complete journey, the flight time is too long for a three man crew to complete. Thus, they stop in HNL for a planned re-crew.



Kind of hard to believe that UAL has a crew standing by in HNL just in case they need to make a technical stop. i call the BS flag on that scenario,


they certainly have pilots in HNL given all their flights to it - not that they are standing by, just available if necessary (with some shuffling to get other flights covered). I am surprised these pilots would be 787 certified though since HNL doesn't see any of those on a scheduled basis.
 
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ikolkyo
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Re: UA 2 scheduled stops in HNL

Thu Dec 22, 2016 8:11 pm

Doesn't make sense to me, I'd expect this to happen going from SFO-SIN not SIN-SFO.
 
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LAXintl
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Re: UA 2 scheduled stops in HNL

Thu Dec 22, 2016 8:14 pm

BostonBeau wrote:
Not sure why they are going to HNL for fuel. SIN-ANC-SFO is about 500 miles shorter than SIN-HNL-SFO.


There is the little detail of jetstreams. Nautical air miles matter more when flight planning that any ground mile calculation.

Many of these traverse the Central Pacific versus North Pacific.
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Newbiepilot
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Re: UA 2 scheduled stops in HNL

Thu Dec 22, 2016 8:19 pm

BravoOne wrote:
flyguy84 wrote:
BWIAirport wrote:
FlightAware also has the December 10 flight as SIN-HNL-SFO.

Also related due to crew duty issues... these are not fuel stops. If one of the crew of four is ill or can't complete journey, the flight time is too long for a three man crew to complete. Thus, they stop in HNL for a planned re-crew.



Kind of hard to believe that UAL has a crew standing by in HNL just in case they need to make a technical stop. i call the BS flag on that scenario,


I think a crew can dead head to HNL and have enough time to operate the plane to SFO. They have enough notice to get a crew to HNL. The challenge is resting them in HNL.
 
barney captain
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Re: UA 2 scheduled stops in HNL

Thu Dec 22, 2016 8:32 pm

I've never heard of a flight landing mid-way to it's destination to accommodate a crew duty issue. AFAIK, the legality of those crews has to be verified before the aircraft departs.

Maybe the ULH sectors have additional restrictions.
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codc10
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Re: UA 2 scheduled stops in HNL

Thu Dec 22, 2016 8:37 pm

DaufuskieGuy wrote:
BravoOne wrote:
flyguy84 wrote:
Also related due to crew duty issues... these are not fuel stops. If one of the crew of four is ill or can't complete journey, the flight time is too long for a three man crew to complete. Thus, they stop in HNL for a planned re-crew.



Kind of hard to believe that UAL has a crew standing by in HNL just in case they need to make a technical stop. i call the BS flag on that scenario,


they certainly have pilots in HNL given all their flights to it - not that they are standing by, just available if necessary (with some shuffling to get other flights covered). I am surprised these pilots would be 787 certified though since HNL doesn't see any of those on a scheduled basis.


HNL is not a pilot domicile for United. Mainland pilots would comprise any 787 relief crew positioned in HNL to meet UA2 stopping for duty time reasons.

barney captain wrote:
I've never heard of a flight landing mid-way to it's destination to accommodate a crew duty issue. AFAIK, the legality of those crews has to be verified before the aircraft departs.

Maybe the ULH sectors have additional restrictions.


FRMS ("Fatigue Risk Management System") gives United some additional flexibility (but not much) on crew duty limitations for ULH sectors than what would be provided by FAR 117 as enacted.
 
flyingadam89
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Re: UA 2 scheduled stops in HNL

Thu Dec 22, 2016 8:43 pm

This was in fact due to a sick crew member. FAR 117 duty limitations required a crew stop in HNL and a new crew got placed in HNL to bring the flight back to SFO.
 
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Re: UA 2 scheduled stops in HNL

Thu Dec 22, 2016 8:46 pm

barney captain wrote:
I've never heard of a flight landing mid-way to it's destination to accommodate a crew duty issue. AFAIK, the legality of those crews has to be verified before the aircraft departs.


It happens. For example some Europe-US flights running late land short in places like BOS for crew change.

For UA specifically recently a couple PVG-ORD flights land short in SFO for recrewing. Similarly, a couple FRA-SFO flights landed in ORD for crew change.

Few years ago I flew to HKG, and we landed short in Japan to be recrewed.

Ultimately its a smart way to avoid cancelling a flight entirely and stranding the passengers.
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DaufuskieGuy
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Re: UA 2 scheduled stops in HNL

Thu Dec 22, 2016 9:01 pm

LAXintl wrote:
barney captain wrote:
I've never heard of a flight landing mid-way to it's destination to accommodate a crew duty issue. AFAIK, the legality of those crews has to be verified before the aircraft departs.


It happens. For example some Europe-US flights running late land short in places like BOS for crew change.

For UA specifically recently a couple PVG-ORD flights land short in SFO for recrewing. Similarly, a couple FRA-SFO flights landed in ORD for crew change.

Few years ago I flew to HKG, and we landed short in Japan to be recrewed.

Ultimately its a smart way to avoid cancelling a flight entirely and stranding the passengers.


I assume these instances are mainly crew timing out and more rarely illness?
 
badgervor
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Re: UA 2 scheduled stops in HNL

Thu Dec 22, 2016 9:02 pm

DaufuskieGuy wrote:
BravoOne wrote:
flyguy84 wrote:
I am surprised these pilots would be 787 certified though since HNL doesn't see any of those on a scheduled basis.


I thought the 787 and 777 are considered a common type rating? At least I swore I read that somewhere
 
DaufuskieGuy
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Re: UA 2 scheduled stops in HNL

Thu Dec 22, 2016 9:31 pm

badgervor wrote:
DaufuskieGuy wrote:
BravoOne wrote:


I thought the 787 and 777 are considered a common type rating? At least I swore I read that somewhere

regardless they apparently flew the new crew in from SFO.
 
Newbiepilot
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Re: UA 2 scheduled stops in HNL

Thu Dec 22, 2016 9:32 pm

DaufuskieGuy wrote:
LAXintl wrote:
barney captain wrote:
I've never heard of a flight landing mid-way to it's destination to accommodate a crew duty issue. AFAIK, the legality of those crews has to be verified before the aircraft departs.


It happens. For example some Europe-US flights running late land short in places like BOS for crew change.

For UA specifically recently a couple PVG-ORD flights land short in SFO for recrewing. Similarly, a couple FRA-SFO flights landed in ORD for crew change.

Few years ago I flew to HKG, and we landed short in Japan to be recrewed.

Ultimately its a smart way to avoid cancelling a flight entirely and stranding the passengers.


I assume these instances are mainly crew timing out and more rarely illness?


Essentially we are talking about the same thing. Two crew can fly 8 hours, three can fly 12 and four can fly 16 (plus two to four hours depending on circumstances). If they are scheduled for a crew of four and one gets sick then duty time shrinks from 16 to 12 hours. Since the flight is blocked at 14 hours 40 minutes, they won't make it all the way to SFO.

In the other examples weather or maintenance delays used up some of the duty time before takeoff so that there was not enough remaining time. Either way you have a crew with not enough duty time to complete the flight so you stop short. Occasionally this happens and UA is not putting an extra pilot on board for contingencies. I think it is extremely rare. Also if this happened twice in a 10 day period, it could be the same person (how about that for a conspiracy theory?)
 
usflyguy
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Re: UA 2 scheduled stops in HNL

Thu Dec 22, 2016 9:35 pm

BravoOne wrote:
flyguy84 wrote:
BWIAirport wrote:
FlightAware also has the December 10 flight as SIN-HNL-SFO.

Also related due to crew duty issues... these are not fuel stops. If one of the crew of four is ill or can't complete journey, the flight time is too long for a three man crew to complete. Thus, they stop in HNL for a planned re-crew.



Kind of hard to believe that UAL has a crew standing by in HNL just in case they need to make a technical stop. i call the BS flag on that scenario,


SFO-HNL-SFO is short enough that a crew can be deadheaded to HNL to then work the leg back to SFO without an overnight.
My post is my ideas and my opinions only, I do not represent the ideas or opinions of anyone else or company.
 
Newbiepilot
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Re: UA 2 scheduled stops in HNL

Thu Dec 22, 2016 9:36 pm

badgervor wrote:
DaufuskieGuy wrote:
BravoOne wrote:


I thought the 787 and 777 are considered a common type rating? At least I swore I read that somewhere


That was a goal early on in the development, but I think there is a 4-5 day differences course require and separate ratings.
 
Utah744
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Re: UA 2 scheduled stops in HNL

Thu Dec 22, 2016 9:49 pm

codc10's reply#2 was right on.
Commercial Flights

Per ICAO Annex 6, Part I, section 4.3.6 "Fuel Requirements," airplanes should calculate their required fuel quantity as follows (summary; see below for actual ICAO text):
•Taxi fuel
•Trip fuel (to reach intended destination)
•Contingency fuel (higher of 5% of "trip fuel" or 5 minutes of holding flight)
•Destination alternate fuel (to fly a missed and reach an alternate)
•Final reserve fuel (45 minutes of holding flight for reciprocating engines, 30 minutes for jets)
•Additional fuel (if needed to guarantee ability to reach an alternate with an engine failure or at lower altitude due to a pressurization loss)
•Discretionary fuel (if the pilot in command wants it)
For example if the flight was scheduled to burn 200,000# (I have no A359 experience) you'd be required to have 5% or10,000# of contingency fuel, BUT if you are only released to some mid point you'd need a lot less contingency. So the Captains and dispatcher plan the flight NS but load contingency fuel only for the mid point and then the flight is re-released to the destination now requiring much less contingency fuel. Now actual stops in HNL must be for other reason listed above. NWA used this technique on almost all long flights.
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Newbiepilot
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Re: UA 2 scheduled stops in HNL

Thu Dec 22, 2016 10:15 pm

Utah744 wrote:
codc10's reply#2 was right on.
Commercial Flights

Per ICAO Annex 6, Part I, section 4.3.6 "Fuel Requirements," airplanes should calculate their required fuel quantity as follows (summary; see below for actual ICAO text):
•Taxi fuel
•Trip fuel (to reach intended destination)
•Contingency fuel (higher of 5% of "trip fuel" or 5 minutes of holding flight)
•Destination alternate fuel (to fly a missed and reach an alternate)
•Final reserve fuel (45 minutes of holding flight for reciprocating engines, 30 minutes for jets)
•Additional fuel (if needed to guarantee ability to reach an alternate with an engine failure or at lower altitude due to a pressurization loss)
•Discretionary fuel (if the pilot in command wants it)
For example if the flight was scheduled to burn 200,000# (I have no A359 experience) you'd be required to have 5% or10,000# of contingency fuel, BUT if you are only released to some mid point you'd need a lot less contingency. So the Captains and dispatcher plan the flight NS but load contingency fuel only for the mid point and then the flight is re-released to the destination now requiring much less contingency fuel. Now actual stops in HNL must be for other reason listed above. NWA used this technique on almost all long flights.


While the concept you discuss is correct, it does not make sense in this case. UA made stops eastbound, not westbound. Westbound is where there are headwinds and the flight time is two hours longer. UA has not made westbound stops.
 
BobbyPSP
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Re: UA 2 scheduled stops in HNL

Thu Dec 22, 2016 10:22 pm

Quick question re: deadheading flight crew HNL.

This might be a contract issue so i'm asking: I know DH is usually considered "on duty", however if in an F seat, is the flight to HNL also considered part of the rest period for a pilot having maybe a 12 hr total day?
 
BravoOne
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Re: UA 2 scheduled stops in HNL

Thu Dec 22, 2016 10:32 pm

DaufuskieGuy wrote:
badgervor wrote:
DaufuskieGuy wrote:


I thought the 787 and 777 are considered a common type rating? At least I swore I read that somewhere

regardless they apparently flew the new crew in from SFO.


Not a common "FAA type rating". Some countries yes, but not here in the US.
 
Okie
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Re: UA 2 scheduled stops in HNL

Thu Dec 22, 2016 10:36 pm

Newbiepilot wrote:
Essentially we are talking about the same thing. Two crew can fly 8 hours, three can fly 12 and four can fly 16 (plus two to four hours depending on circumstances). If they are scheduled for a crew of four and one gets sick then duty time shrinks from 16 to 12 hours. Since the flight is blocked at 14 hours 40 minutes, they won't make it all the way to SFO.


I am thinking more along the lines since we are in December that there is crewing issues, not sickness, with pilots running out of hours for the year.
Just having crew members with hours left in the wrong position.

Okie
 
BravoOne
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Re: UA 2 scheduled stops in HNL

Thu Dec 22, 2016 10:38 pm

Utah744 wrote:
codc10's reply#2 was right on.
Commercial Flights

Per ICAO Annex 6, Part I, section 4.3.6 "Fuel Requirements," airplanes should calculate their required fuel quantity as follows (summary; see below for actual ICAO text):
•Taxi fuel
•Trip fuel (to reach intended destination)
•Contingency fuel (higher of 5% of "trip fuel" or 5 minutes of holding flight)
•Destination alternate fuel (to fly a missed and reach an alternate)
•Final reserve fuel (45 minutes of holding flight for reciprocating engines, 30 minutes for jets)
•Additional fuel (if needed to guarantee ability to reach an alternate with an engine failure or at lower altitude due to a pressurization loss)
•Discretionary fuel (if the pilot in command wants it)
For example if the flight was scheduled to burn 200,000# (I have no A359 experience) you'd be required to have 5% or10,000# of contingency fuel, BUT if you are only released to some mid point you'd need a lot less contingency. So the Captains and dispatcher plan the flight NS but load contingency fuel only for the mid point and then the flight is re-released to the destination now requiring much less contingency fuel. Now actual stops in HNL must be for other reason listed above. NWA used this technique on almost all long flights.



Close but quite. FAA mandates 10% "Flag Fuel under 121.625 (?)" That's 10% of the flight time so a 10 hour flight would 60 minutes of international reserve fuel + 30 minutes holding fuel. EASA and ICAO are similar but as rigid as FAA rules. Also does not include any additional ETOPS fuels which the 787 is susceptible to.
 
BravoOne
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Re: UA 2 scheduled stops in HNL

Thu Dec 22, 2016 10:39 pm

Okie wrote:
Newbiepilot wrote:
Essentially we are talking about the same thing. Two crew can fly 8 hours, three can fly 12 and four can fly 16 (plus two to four hours depending on circumstances). If they are scheduled for a crew of four and one gets sick then duty time shrinks from 16 to 12 hours. Since the flight is blocked at 14 hours 40 minutes, they won't make it all the way to SFO.


I am thinking more along the lines since we are in December that there is crewing issues, not sickness, with pilots running out of hours for the year.
Just having crew members with hours left in the wrong position.

Okie



Love to meet that UAL pilots that fly's 1000 per year. Just say'n:)
 
xjet
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Re: UA 2 scheduled stops in HNL

Thu Dec 22, 2016 10:47 pm

BobbyPSP wrote:
Quick question re: deadheading flight crew HNL.

This might be a contract issue so i'm asking: I know DH is usually considered "on duty", however if in an F seat, is the flight to HNL also considered part of the rest period for a pilot having maybe a 12 hr total day?


If deadheading into an operating flight, the FAA requires that the entire deadhead count as a duty period. If you are operating and then deadheading, the FAA could care less. You aren't in "rest" on a backend deadhead, but neither does it count towards the maximum daily duty limit.
 
Okie
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Re: UA 2 scheduled stops in HNL

Thu Dec 22, 2016 10:51 pm

BravoOne wrote:
Love to meet that UAL pilots that fly's 1000 per year. Just say'n:)


Just a thought.

Yes, I may have to wash my mouth out with soap.

Okie
 
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LAXintl
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Re: UA 2 scheduled stops in HNL

Thu Dec 22, 2016 10:54 pm

BravoOne wrote:
Close but quite. FAA mandates 10% "Flag Fuel under 121.625 (?)" That's 10% of the flight time so a 10 hour flight would 60 minutes of international reserve fuel + 30 minutes holding fuel. EASA and ICAO are similar but as rigid as FAA rules. Also does not include any additional ETOPS fuels which the 787 is susceptible to.


United and the other majors have long held FAA approved Ops Spec deviations to reduce prescribed regulatory contingency figures. (B044, B343, B043, B343+B043, A012, etc)

Matter of fact, in last few years FAA has allowed airlines like UA to entirely move away from fixed regulatory fuel figures to data-driven performance-based planning numbers.

Actual fuel reserves on these United ULH flights are a fraction of the archaic 10% flag rules, and brings the US closer to what airlines in regions such as Europe have long utilized for planning.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
BobbyPSP
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Re: UA 2 scheduled stops in HNL

Thu Dec 22, 2016 11:11 pm

xjet wrote:
BobbyPSP wrote:
Quick question re: deadheading flight crew HNL.

This might be a contract issue so i'm asking: I know DH is usually considered "on duty", however if in an F seat, is the flight to HNL also considered part of the rest period for a pilot having maybe a 12 hr total day?


If deadheading into an operating flight, the FAA requires that the entire deadhead count as a duty period. If you are operating and then deadheading, the FAA could care less. You aren't in "rest" on a backend deadhead, but neither does it count towards the maximum daily duty limit.


Thank you! Much appreciated
 
BravoOne
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Re: UA 2 scheduled stops in HNL

Fri Dec 23, 2016 12:05 am

LAX intl I believe your are speaking to the exception allow for less than 10% time for flight that are not operating in Class ll airspace, i.e, EDDF to KLAX. Much of that fling does not occur in Class ll airspace and thus is not used to calculate the 10% number. Depending on how a Singapore to SFO flight is planned you may be able to recapture some of the time, BUT, a flight the goes close to HNL is not one of them.
 
blacksoviet
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Re: UA 2 scheduled stops in HNL

Fri Dec 23, 2016 12:24 am

Was HNL-SFO ever flown with the DC-7?
 
BravoOne
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Re: UA 2 scheduled stops in HNL

Fri Dec 23, 2016 12:43 am

blacksoviet wrote:
Was HNL-SFO ever flown with the DC-7?


DC4, DC6B, DC7, DC7C, B377, all under the PAA banner. DC4 was a 13+ hour tip. DC7C was around 9+

The good ole days
 
blacksoviet
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Re: UA 2 scheduled stops in HNL

Fri Dec 23, 2016 12:52 am

Did the DC-7C carry a relief crew?
 
BravoOne
Posts: 3602
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2013 2:27 pm

Re: UA 2 scheduled stops in HNL

Fri Dec 23, 2016 2:37 am

3 pilots including the Navigator
2 FE's
 
blacksoviet
Posts: 1245
Joined: Thu Apr 21, 2016 10:50 am

Re: UA 2 scheduled stops in HNL

Fri Dec 23, 2016 2:41 am

BravoOne wrote:
3 pilots including the Navigator
2 FE's

Why did the DC-7 have two FEs?
 
iahcsr
Posts: 4777
Joined: Fri Jun 04, 1999 2:59 pm

Re: UA 2 scheduled stops in HNL

Fri Dec 23, 2016 3:05 am

Did the stops in HNL also require recrewing the FAs? Or was there still sufficient duty time remaining for them?
Working Hard, Flying Right Friendly....
 
kaitakfan
Posts: 1532
Joined: Fri Oct 29, 1999 1:04 pm

Re: UA 2 scheduled stops in HNL

Fri Dec 23, 2016 3:58 am

BravoOne wrote:
Okie wrote:
Newbiepilot wrote:
Essentially we are talking about the same thing. Two crew can fly 8 hours, three can fly 12 and four can fly 16 (plus two to four hours depending on circumstances). If they are scheduled for a crew of four and one gets sick then duty time shrinks from 16 to 12 hours. Since the flight is blocked at 14 hours 40 minutes, they won't make it all the way to SFO.


I am thinking more along the lines since we are in December that there is crewing issues, not sickness, with pilots running out of hours for the year.
Just having crew members with hours left in the wrong position.

Okie



Love to meet that UAL pilots that fly's 1000 per year. Just say'n:)


This guy gets it! I'm not going to break 500 hours on reserve on the 756 fleet this year.
 
TW870
Posts: 1017
Joined: Fri Jan 25, 2013 2:01 am

Re: UA 2 scheduled stops in HNL

Fri Dec 23, 2016 4:19 am

iahcsr wrote:
Did the stops in HNL also require recrewing the FAs? Or was there still sufficient duty time remaining for them?


It would depend on how long the stop was. If I remember right from my UA days the work rule on flights that long was that max duty = scheduled block plus 3 hours. If you are more than three hours over schedule, you have got to re-crew. That is also the work rule in the new contract that was just ratified, and I believe they are all flying by those work rules even though they are not yet flying together (and this was presumably an sCO crew).
 
FlyHossD
Posts: 1938
Joined: Mon Nov 02, 2009 3:45 pm

Re: UA 2 scheduled stops in HNL

Fri Dec 23, 2016 8:13 am

barney captain wrote:
I've never heard of a flight landing mid-way to it's destination to accommodate a crew duty issue. AFAIK, the legality of those crews has to be verified before the aircraft departs.

Maybe the ULH sectors have additional restrictions.


Such pilot swaps are not uncommon and I participated in one just before my retirement. As I recall, our original relief pilot was used to cover another flight after that flight's first officer had been hit by a car on the layover. The resulting shuffle forced us to land in BOS, short of the destination for a replacement pilot.
My statements do not represent my former employer or my current employer and are my opinions only.
 
b747400erf
Posts: 3135
Joined: Wed Jun 19, 2013 4:33 am

Re: UA 2 scheduled stops in HNL

Fri Dec 23, 2016 10:07 am

codc10 wrote:
The flight is initially filed SIN-HNL, then refiled all the way to SFO if at the 'recheck' point, the flight crew determines there is sufficient fuel to make it to SFO within all safety margins.

A fuel stop is definitely suboptimal with competition from SQ now. UAL will likely be weight restricting the flight more heavily than forecast.


They had to fight the dreaded 100kt+ tail winds that winter time brings.
 
b747400erf
Posts: 3135
Joined: Wed Jun 19, 2013 4:33 am

Re: UA 2 scheduled stops in HNL

Fri Dec 23, 2016 10:08 am

FlyHossD wrote:
barney captain wrote:
I've never heard of a flight landing mid-way to it's destination to accommodate a crew duty issue. AFAIK, the legality of those crews has to be verified before the aircraft departs.

Maybe the ULH sectors have additional restrictions.


Such pilot swaps are not uncommon and I participated in one just before my retirement. As I recall, our original relief pilot was used to cover another flight after that flight's first officer had been hit by a car on the layover. The resulting shuffle forced us to land in BOS, short of the destination for a replacement pilot.


Having to fly 5 hours to paradise only to quickly take off on duty back to the continent, the life of a younger relief pilot is not fun!
 
anshabhi
Posts: 2110
Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2016 10:40 am

Re: UA 2 scheduled stops in HNL

Fri Dec 23, 2016 11:57 am

Air India 173 DEL-SFO also flies over Pacific, non-stop. It covers almost 2800 km more than UA 2.. In that way, Very strange that UA 2 makes a stop.
 
BravoOne
Posts: 3602
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2013 2:27 pm

Re: UA 2 scheduled stops in HNL

Fri Dec 23, 2016 4:07 pm

blacksoviet wrote:
BravoOne wrote:
3 pilots including the Navigator
2 FE's

Why did the DC-7 have two FEs?



I have to retract that as I'm not really sure that they used two F/E' on this leg. It would have been contractural (FEIA), issue and not a regulatory requirement. Use to see 2 FE on a lot of long range 707 trips.

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