usflyer123
Topic Author
Posts: 567
Joined: Thu May 26, 2016 6:21 pm

Why no US-Sapporo flights?

Sat Dec 24, 2016 1:00 pm

OK i have checked and I did not see another topic about this subject. I have noticed that Sapporo dont have direct flights to the US(excluding Hawaii) which seems pretty weird. Sapporo is a big city which could definitely support a LAX and SFO route and I think that it can even support other cities in the US. So why is it?
for most people the sky is the limit. for those who love aviation, the sky is home...
 
303dk
Posts: 484
Joined: Sat Aug 27, 2016 11:26 pm

Re: Why no US-Sapporo flights?

Sat Dec 24, 2016 1:34 pm

There is service GUM and HNL.

Although it's a big city, CTS isn't a hub. They also have restricted hours for international flights (just weekends, I think) as well as limited hourly aircraft movements due to the air force base.

No one has been able to make service to Europe work either.
 
User avatar
LAX772LR
Posts: 12504
Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2014 11:06 pm

Re: Why no US-Sapporo flights?

Sat Dec 24, 2016 1:38 pm

No significant business ties + Japanese aviation being notoriously Tokyo-centric = no service.

Heck, Osaka has struggled to maintain consistent US mainland service, and it's far and away a larger and more powerful market.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
77H
Posts: 1461
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2016 11:27 pm

Re: Why no US-Sapporo flights?

Sat Dec 24, 2016 1:46 pm

LAX772LR wrote:
No significant business ties + Japanese aviation being notoriously Tokyo-centric = no service.

Heck, Osaka has struggled to maintain consistent US mainland service, and it's far and away a larger and more powerful market.


To be fair, KIX struggles to maintain US mainland service in large part due to the high operating fees.

77H
 
303dk
Posts: 484
Joined: Sat Aug 27, 2016 11:26 pm

Re: Why no US-Sapporo flights?

Sat Dec 24, 2016 1:47 pm

If I'm not mistaken, when excluding MP, GU, and HI, the only non-Tokyo US flights are SFO-KIX and DTW-NGO.
 
hoons90
Posts: 3547
Joined: Wed Aug 01, 2001 10:15 pm

Re: Why no US-Sapporo flights?

Sat Dec 24, 2016 1:55 pm

303dk wrote:
If I'm not mistaken, when excluding MP, GU, and HI, the only non-Tokyo US flights are SFO-KIX and DTW-NGO.


LAX-KIX as well.
The biggest mistake made by most human beings: Listening to only half, understanding just a quarter and telling double.
 
NH203
Posts: 155
Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2015 8:39 am

Re: Why no US-Sapporo flights?

Sat Dec 24, 2016 2:26 pm

303dk wrote:
They also have restricted hours for international flights (just weekends, I think)


That can't be right. For example CX flies CTS-HKG double daily.
 
303dk
Posts: 484
Joined: Sat Aug 27, 2016 11:26 pm

Re: Why no US-Sapporo flights?

Sat Dec 24, 2016 2:39 pm

NH203 wrote:
303dk wrote:
They also have restricted hours for international flights (just weekends, I think)


That can't be right. For example CX flies CTS-HKG double daily.


Google Translate isn't perfect, but it seems like they relaxed the rules for China.

"The government decided on the policy to expand the slots and slots of New Chitose Airport during the daytime period from 32 times per hour to 42 times in the end of March next year. From late October this year, restrictions on departure and arrival for aircraft such as China and Russia will be relaxed. The new Chitose Airport is crowded with customers of international flights, including China, and is crowded, aiming to increase the number of foreign tourists by urging the airline to enter the airline, mainly international routes."
 
NH203
Posts: 155
Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2015 8:39 am

Re: Why no US-Sapporo flights?

Sat Dec 24, 2016 2:45 pm

303dk wrote:
NH203 wrote:
303dk wrote:
They also have restricted hours for international flights (just weekends, I think)


That can't be right. For example CX flies CTS-HKG double daily.


Google Translate isn't perfect, but it seems like they relaxed the rules for China.

"The government decided on the policy to expand the slots and slots of New Chitose Airport during the daytime period from 32 times per hour to 42 times in the end of March next year. From late October this year, restrictions on departure and arrival for aircraft such as China and Russia will be relaxed. The new Chitose Airport is crowded with customers of international flights, including China, and is crowded, aiming to increase the number of foreign tourists by urging the airline to enter the airline, mainly international routes."


Interesting, thanks for posting.

I have never followed CTS closely, that's why I'm surprised that international service (outside of China and Russia) is restricted to weekends. Hawain's service to HNL runs on other days too IIRC and CTS has international service to many more countries, for example KUL, SIN, TPE. Surely these services operate during the week too, so in theory it should be possible to fly to international destinations during the week.
Last edited by NH203 on Sat Dec 24, 2016 2:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
kenster1998
Posts: 1
Joined: Tue Apr 04, 2006 12:53 pm

Re: Why no US-Sapporo flights?

Sat Dec 24, 2016 2:45 pm

If such flight existed, Niseko and Furano, etc would take business away from the US ski resorts.
 
SFOtoORD
Posts: 1113
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2007 2:26 am

Re: Why no US-Sapporo flights?

Sat Dec 24, 2016 3:05 pm

kenster1998 wrote:
If such flight existed, Niseko and Furano, etc would take business away from the US ski resorts.


The snow at Niseko is incredible and some would go, but not that many people in the US are willing to take an 11 hr flight to ski.
 
303dk
Posts: 484
Joined: Sat Aug 27, 2016 11:26 pm

Re: Why no US-Sapporo flights?

Sat Dec 24, 2016 3:37 pm

NH203 wrote:
303dk wrote:
NH203 wrote:

That can't be right. For example CX flies CTS-HKG double daily.


Google Translate isn't perfect, but it seems like they relaxed the rules for China.

"The government decided on the policy to expand the slots and slots of New Chitose Airport during the daytime period from 32 times per hour to 42 times in the end of March next year. From late October this year, restrictions on departure and arrival for aircraft such as China and Russia will be relaxed. The new Chitose Airport is crowded with customers of international flights, including China, and is crowded, aiming to increase the number of foreign tourists by urging the airline to enter the airline, mainly international routes."


Interesting, thanks for posting.

I have never followed CTS closely, that's why I'm surprised that international service (outside of China and Russia) is restricted to weekends. Hawain's service to HNL runs on other days too IIRC and CTS has international service to many more countries, for example KUL, SIN, TPE. Surely these services operate during the week too, so in theory it should be possible to fly to international destinations during the week.


I found some places online that say no international flights (other than China) on Mondays and Thursdays.
 
303dk
Posts: 484
Joined: Sat Aug 27, 2016 11:26 pm

Re: Why no US-Sapporo flights?

Sat Dec 24, 2016 3:42 pm

SFOtoORD wrote:
kenster1998 wrote:
If such flight existed, Niseko and Furano, etc would take business away from the US ski resorts.


The snow at Niseko is incredible and some would go, but not that many people in the US are willing to take an 11 hr flight to ski.


I don't think that's the problem, Saturday only ski flights are common (look at EGE). The issue is filling the premium seats and the lack of business ties between Hokkaido and the USA.
 
32andBelow
Posts: 4016
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 2:54 am

Re: Why no US-Sapporo flights?

Sat Dec 24, 2016 6:33 pm

ANC-CTS winter seasonal on the max!!! AS please.
 
Kilopond
Posts: 469
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 10:08 am

Re: Why no US-Sapporo flights?

Sat Dec 24, 2016 9:27 pm

303dk wrote:
[...]They also have restricted hours for international flights (just weekends, I think)[...]


At least CTS is reasonably well connected to the regional hubs on a DAILY basis, even with a 747. This list of daily international CTS flights is incomlete:

MU280 (PVG, 320)
CA170 (PEK, 738)
CX581 (HKG, 773)
CX583 (HKG, 773)
KE766 (ICN, 773)
KE796 (ICN, 73J)
OZ173 (ICN, 763)
BR115 (TPE, 744)
 
georgiabill
Posts: 1194
Joined: Sat Mar 01, 2003 11:53 pm

Re: Why no US-Sapporo flights?

Sat Dec 24, 2016 10:14 pm

If CTS and the U.S. were to have non stop flights I think the AA/JL JV with JL operating CTS-LAX-CTS 3 or 4 weekly. UA might consider SFO-CTS with their 788'S. But I think they are looking to add more China service from SFO.
 
Freshside3
Posts: 1590
Joined: Fri Nov 30, 2012 2:11 am

Re: Why no US-Sapporo flights?

Sun Dec 25, 2016 1:41 am

georgiabill wrote:
If CTS and the U.S. were to have non stop flights I think the AA/JL JV with JL operating CTS-LAX-CTS 3 or 4 weekly. UA might consider SFO-CTS with their 788'S. But I think they are looking to add more China service from SFO.

UA won't. Everything new to Japan from UA goes to NH nowadays, and they just stick a UA code-share number on it.
 
SFOtoORD
Posts: 1113
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2007 2:26 am

Re: Why no US-Sapporo flights?

Sun Dec 25, 2016 1:48 am

Freshside3 wrote:
georgiabill wrote:
If CTS and the U.S. were to have non stop flights I think the AA/JL JV with JL operating CTS-LAX-CTS 3 or 4 weekly. UA might consider SFO-CTS with their 788'S. But I think they are looking to add more China service from SFO.

UA won't. Everything new to Japan from UA goes to NH nowadays, and they just stick a UA code-share number on it.


But that is Tokyo originating flights that largely don't go to UA hubs. I don't see UA or NH ever doing CTS to the US. FUK might be a better bet, but still weak.
 
spacecadet
Posts: 3464
Joined: Thu Sep 20, 2001 3:36 am

Re: Why no US-Sapporo flights?

Sun Dec 25, 2016 2:49 am

There are a lot better direct flight destination possibilities from the US than CTS. CTS has very little connection to the US... FUK, OKA, KIX/ITM all would be better possibilities, yet I don't think there's a non-stop flight from the US (mainland) to any of them. Japan is very hub-centric. Basically everything goes through Tokyo. There are some historical reasons for that, not to mention cultural and logistical reasons.

I agree it's annoying and it may start to change over time, with planes like the 787. But it won't happen overnight and CTS will not be the first Japanese city with direct service from the US mainland.
I'm tired of being a wanna-be league bowler. I wanna be a league bowler!
 
DaufuskieGuy
Posts: 411
Joined: Tue Sep 23, 2008 6:35 pm

Re: Why no US-Sapporo flights?

Sun Dec 25, 2016 5:39 am

i'm confused as to why neither JA or NH would try secondary Jap. city service to LAX/SFO, you'd think one would gain a competitive advantage by doing so.
 
User avatar
LAXintl
Posts: 23836
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 12:12 pm

Re: Why no US-Sapporo flights?

Sun Dec 25, 2016 5:54 am

DaufuskieGuy wrote:
i'm confused as to why neither JA or NH would try secondary Jap. city service to LAX/SFO, you'd think one would gain a competitive advantage by doing so.


They have and failed. So have the US majors - all three have failed on various secondary Japan markets from US mainland.

JAL only in 2015 resumed KIX-LAX on the 787. Time will tell if it can manage to stick around this time.

Japan is very Tokyo centric when it comes to longhaul services. Not very different to how France is very Paris centric.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
Carpethead
Posts: 2612
Joined: Mon Aug 02, 2004 8:15 pm

Re: Why no US-Sapporo flights?

Sun Dec 25, 2016 6:41 am

CTS has never had US mainland flights. What ever demand there might have been between CTS & US is now served via NRT or HND.
Even the closest US mainland airport SEA is a good 10-hour flight from CTS, much farther than Europe to US east coast.
For those out seeking low-price tickets, one can go on the LCCs to NRT and then whatever lowest airline that takes them to US mainland.
A much larger city in NGO has only one US mainland city, so I would not bet on CTS-US mainland flight anytime soon or in the forseeable future.
 
LY777
Posts: 2532
Joined: Fri Nov 25, 2005 6:58 pm

Re: Why no US-Sapporo flights?

Sun Dec 25, 2016 9:07 am

303dk wrote:
If I'm not mistaken, when excluding MP, GU, and HI, the only non-Tokyo US flights are SFO-KIX and DTW-NGO.


Excuse me, what is MP?
Flown:717,727,732,733,734,735,738,73H,742/744/748,752,753,762/2ER/763/3ER,772/77E/773/77W, 788, 789, DC8,DC10,E190,E195,MD83,MD88, L1011, A3B2,A319,A320-100/200,A321,A332/A333,A343,A388
 
303dk
Posts: 484
Joined: Sat Aug 27, 2016 11:26 pm

Re: Why no US-Sapporo flights?

Sun Dec 25, 2016 12:52 pm

LY777 wrote:
303dk wrote:
If I'm not mistaken, when excluding MP, GU, and HI, the only non-Tokyo US flights are SFO-KIX and DTW-NGO.


Excuse me, what is MP?


Northern Marianas. A US territory north of Guam.
 
LY777
Posts: 2532
Joined: Fri Nov 25, 2005 6:58 pm

Re: Why no US-Sapporo flights?

Sun Dec 25, 2016 1:03 pm

303dk wrote:
LY777 wrote:
303dk wrote:
If I'm not mistaken, when excluding MP, GU, and HI, the only non-Tokyo US flights are SFO-KIX and DTW-NGO.


Excuse me, what is MP?


Northern Marianas. A US territory north of Guam.


ok thanks ;)
Flown:717,727,732,733,734,735,738,73H,742/744/748,752,753,762/2ER/763/3ER,772/77E/773/77W, 788, 789, DC8,DC10,E190,E195,MD83,MD88, L1011, A3B2,A319,A320-100/200,A321,A332/A333,A343,A388
 
b6sea
Posts: 569
Joined: Mon Aug 22, 2005 5:44 pm

Re: Why no US-Sapporo flights?

Mon Dec 26, 2016 12:52 am

LAX772LR wrote:
No significant business ties + Japanese aviation being notoriously Tokyo-centric = no service.

Heck, Osaka has struggled to maintain consistent US mainland service, and it's far and away a larger and more powerful market.



Yeah, I agree. I think the fact that the Japanese economy is so Tokyo-centric makes Sapporo a difficult destination to make work form the US. We all are pretty aware that on long-haul routes, the front cabin is very important and this doesn't strike me as a route that would have a ton of premium demand. As wonderful as Hokkaido is, it just doesn't seem likely that anyone would ever give a route like this a try, especially considering the fact that the news out of Japan is so bleak these days, unfortunately.

Like many routes, as much as I think this is a route that ought to be served and could be successful given the right circumstances, I just don't see any airlines who could say that adding a route to CTS would be a good use of their limited resources. There are other markets still unserved that are probably a bigger priority for the US airlines and I don't see the Japanese carriers displaying much interest outside of Tokyo really. As unfortunate as that is.
 
Freshside3
Posts: 1590
Joined: Fri Nov 30, 2012 2:11 am

Re: Why no US-Sapporo flights?

Mon Dec 26, 2016 2:33 am

77H wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
No significant business ties + Japanese aviation being notoriously Tokyo-centric = no service.

Heck, Osaka has struggled to maintain consistent US mainland service, and it's far and away a larger and more powerful market.


To be fair, KIX struggles to maintain US mainland service in large part due to the high operating fees.
77H

KIX from Canada, too, is struggling. AC has put the YVR-KIX on, off, then back on. And it's ROUGE, no less, which is COACH ONLY! Certainly NOT aimed at business travelers.
 
Freshside3
Posts: 1590
Joined: Fri Nov 30, 2012 2:11 am

Re: Why no US-Sapporo flights?

Mon Dec 26, 2016 2:36 am

I can see, though, some temporary service(charters, perhaps?) during the famous Snow Festival they have in Sapporo. But that is only one week of the year. So, 3x/week for two weeks is tops.
 
COSPN
Posts: 1731
Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2001 6:33 am

Re: Why no US-Sapporo flights?

Mon Dec 26, 2016 6:06 pm

How many flights does UA have CTS-GUM per week ?
 
EWRCabincrew
Posts: 4312
Joined: Mon May 08, 2006 2:37 am

Re: Why no US-Sapporo flights?

Mon Dec 26, 2016 6:33 pm

When CO first got delivery of the 777, I was fortunate to be on the team of flight attendants who did the certification and the proving run for the company. The proving run was to have been IAH-EWR-NRT-HNL-LAX-IAH. It ended up being IAH-EWR-CTS-EWR-IAH. The one nonstop to CTS we did from the US
You can't cure stupid
 
User avatar
LAX772LR
Posts: 12504
Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2014 11:06 pm

Re: Why no US-Sapporo flights?

Mon Dec 26, 2016 6:42 pm

77H wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
No significant business ties + Japanese aviation being notoriously Tokyo-centric = no service.
Heck, Osaka has struggled to maintain consistent US mainland service, and it's far and away a larger and more powerful market.

To be fair, KIX struggles to maintain US mainland service in large part due to the high operating fees.

Sure, but that's just another operational cost.

There's nothing cheap about flying into the likes of NRT or MIA either, but airlines from all over the world justify both, all day every day.
If the demand is there, businesses will pay. For KIX, it's (for the most part) simply not. At least, not consistently.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
User avatar
intotheair
Posts: 1747
Joined: Sun Aug 31, 2014 12:49 pm

Re: Why no US-Sapporo flights?

Mon Dec 26, 2016 6:44 pm

b6sea wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
No significant business ties + Japanese aviation being notoriously Tokyo-centric = no service.

Heck, Osaka has struggled to maintain consistent US mainland service, and it's far and away a larger and more powerful market.



Yeah, I agree. I think the fact that the Japanese economy is so Tokyo-centric makes Sapporo a difficult destination to make work form the US. We all are pretty aware that on long-haul routes, the front cabin is very important and this doesn't strike me as a route that would have a ton of premium demand. As wonderful as Hokkaido is, it just doesn't seem likely that anyone would ever give a route like this a try, especially considering the fact that the news out of Japan is so bleak these days, unfortunately.

Like many routes, as much as I think this is a route that ought to be served and could be successful given the right circumstances, I just don't see any airlines who could say that adding a route to CTS would be a good use of their limited resources. There are other markets still unserved that are probably a bigger priority for the US airlines and I don't see the Japanese carriers displaying much interest outside of Tokyo really. As unfortunate as that is.


These are also similar circumstances for why there's no nonstop service from the U.S. to anywhere in metropolitan France aside from CDG/ORY and a seasonal DL JFK-NCE.

Capital-centric country + heavily hubbed airlines + good rail service integrated into main airports = little business case for nonstop overseas air service to secondary cities.
300 319 320 321 332 333 345 346 380 717 733 734 735 73G 738 739 744 752 753 762 763 772 77W 788 789 CR2 CR7 CR9 CRK Q400 E175 DC10 MD82 MD90
AA AF AS AY AZ B6 BA BR DL F9 FI GA HA KF LH MI QX SK SN SQ UA US VY WN
 
flyfresno
Posts: 837
Joined: Tue May 02, 2006 6:18 am

Re: Why no US-Sapporo flights?

Mon Dec 26, 2016 6:54 pm

It has always seemed strange to me that there are 18million+ people within the Kansai (Osaka/Kyoto/Kobe) area and yet flights to KIX struggle so much. High fees and Tokyo-centricness aside, you would think that such a huge metro area could support more than a small handful of flights to the mainland US and Canada.
 
flyfresno
Posts: 837
Joined: Tue May 02, 2006 6:18 am

Re: Why no US-Sapporo flights?

Mon Dec 26, 2016 6:58 pm

intotheair wrote:
b6sea wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
No significant business ties + Japanese aviation being notoriously Tokyo-centric = no service.

Heck, Osaka has struggled to maintain consistent US mainland service, and it's far and away a larger and more powerful market.



Yeah, I agree. I think the fact that the Japanese economy is so Tokyo-centric makes Sapporo a difficult destination to make work form the US. We all are pretty aware that on long-haul routes, the front cabin is very important and this doesn't strike me as a route that would have a ton of premium demand. As wonderful as Hokkaido is, it just doesn't seem likely that anyone would ever give a route like this a try, especially considering the fact that the news out of Japan is so bleak these days, unfortunately.

Like many routes, as much as I think this is a route that ought to be served and could be successful given the right circumstances, I just don't see any airlines who could say that adding a route to CTS would be a good use of their limited resources. There are other markets still unserved that are probably a bigger priority for the US airlines and I don't see the Japanese carriers displaying much interest outside of Tokyo really. As unfortunate as that is.


These are also similar circumstances for why there's no nonstop service from the U.S. to anywhere in metropolitan France aside from CDG/ORY and a seasonal DL JFK-NCE.

Capital-centric country + heavily hubbed airlines + good rail service integrated into main airports = little business case for nonstop overseas air service to secondary cities.


This is true, although Kansai is still larger than the Paris metro area. What's odd about Japan is that the cities are so big and it still happens.
 
User avatar
LAX772LR
Posts: 12504
Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2014 11:06 pm

Re: Why no US-Sapporo flights?

Mon Dec 26, 2016 7:15 pm

flyfresno wrote:
What's odd about Japan is that the cities are so big and it still happens.

That doesn't mean much.

Population size doesn't always correlate to demand:
Business demand, location, business demand, proximity to more powerful gateways, business demand, political will, business demand, aviation infrastructure, business demand, operational model of home-based carriers, business demand, and business demand.... all factor in (more) heavily.

KIX isn't exact unique in that regard... there's metros like CGK and MNL that are larger than the KIX metro by millions, and yet they too lack service to major hubs all around the world.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
flyfresno
Posts: 837
Joined: Tue May 02, 2006 6:18 am

Re: Why no US-Sapporo flights?

Mon Dec 26, 2016 8:33 pm

LAX772LR wrote:
flyfresno wrote:
What's odd about Japan is that the cities are so big and it still happens.

That doesn't mean much.

Population size doesn't always correlate to demand:
Business demand, location, business demand, proximity to more powerful gateways, business demand, political will, business demand, aviation infrastructure, business demand, operational model of home-based carriers, business demand, and business demand.... all factor in (more) heavily.

KIX isn't exact unique in that regard... there's metros like CGK and MNL that are larger than the KIX metro by millions, and yet they too lack service to major hubs all around the world.


I am also amazed that MNL does not have more flights to North America: even with the region's much lower GDP, you would think that an airport that sits on an island that is home to 52+ million people (not to mention the rest of the country, from which there is only a single flight to LA from Cebu) would support more than a small handful of flights. It's just hard to rap your head around the fact that, even with 52+ million people, the yields are so low that no US carrier wants to serve the country non-stop from a West Coast hub. I would imagine that AirAsia or another LCC will make a killing there with low-cost service.

But I digress. Kansai has the 7th largest economy of any region on the planet, which is much higher than Manila's, and Japan has the 3rd largest economy in the world. I guess I should have clarified, as most people would place the Philippines in a completely different economic bucket than the US, Japan, or France (or even China), even with the recently weaker Japanese economy. CGK is also a lot further from the US than MNL or KIX (further than even SIN, I believe), so the costs of an ultra long-haul route would definitely outweigh the benefits without a ton of high-yield traffic. So, I guess my statement should have been, "What's odd about Japan is that for such an economic powerhouse with cities that are so big, it still happens."
 
c933103
Posts: 3824
Joined: Wed May 18, 2016 7:23 pm

Re: Why no US-Sapporo flights?

Mon Dec 26, 2016 9:00 pm

303dk wrote:
NH203 wrote:
303dk wrote:
They also have restricted hours for international flights (just weekends, I think)


That can't be right. For example CX flies CTS-HKG double daily.


Google Translate isn't perfect, but it seems like they relaxed the rules for China.

"The government decided on the policy to expand the slots and slots of New Chitose Airport during the daytime period from 32 times per hour to 42 times in the end of March next year. From late October this year, restrictions on departure and arrival for aircraft such as China and Russia will be relaxed. The new Chitose Airport is crowded with customers of international flights, including China, and is crowded, aiming to increase the number of foreign tourists by urging the airline to enter the airline, mainly international routes."

Yes, but CX or US airlines' flights will not be restricted by the departure time restriction. The restriction is put in place because the airport is also an airbase for JSDF, and thus some timeblock are not available for Chinese/CIS airlines for defense reason. Similar restrictions are also applied to other airports with SDF activity, like IBR.

Current available timeblock to Chinese/CIS airlines include:
Sat, Sun whole day, Fri after 1700, and Tue, Wed 1200 - 1600

Relaxed timeblock:
Sat, Sun whole day, Fri after 1200, and Mon-Thur 1200 - 1700

On the other hand, the extra 10-slot per hours seems to be made available by allowing civilian planes to takeoff/land together with SDF planes so that would benefit everyone. Government officials seems to have announced that they want to make all flights wanting to fly into CTS can be launched.
When no other countries around the world is going to militarily stop China and its subordinate fom abusing its citizens within its national boundary, it is unreasonable to expect those abuse can be countered with purely peaceful means.
 
User avatar
LAX772LR
Posts: 12504
Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2014 11:06 pm

Re: Why no US-Sapporo flights?

Tue Dec 27, 2016 12:53 am

flyfresno wrote:
I am also amazed that MNL does not have more flights to North America: even with the region's much lower GDP, you would think that an airport that sits on an island that is home to 52+ million people (not to mention the rest of the country, from which there is only a single flight to LA from Cebu) would support more than a small handful of flights. It's just hard to rap your head around the fact that, even with 52+ million people, the yields are so low that no US carrier wants to serve the country non-stop from a West Coast hub. I would imagine that AirAsia or another LCC will make a killing there with low-cost service.

It was JUST pointed out that population size doesn't directly correlate to longhaul air service; yet you're expressing amazement that a place doesn't have extensive longhaul air service, based on its population size. Um....... :?


flyfresno wrote:
So, I guess my statement should have been, "What's odd about Japan is that for such an economic powerhouse with cities that are so big, it still happens."

As someone else just made note, it's not a purely Japanese thing. Same for France. Same for S.Korea. Same for several other developed places.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
flyfresno
Posts: 837
Joined: Tue May 02, 2006 6:18 am

Re: Why no US-Sapporo flights?

Tue Dec 27, 2016 1:54 am

LAX772LR wrote:
flyfresno wrote:
I am also amazed that MNL does not have more flights to North America: even with the region's much lower GDP, you would think that an airport that sits on an island that is home to 52+ million people (not to mention the rest of the country, from which there is only a single flight to LA from Cebu) would support more than a small handful of flights. It's just hard to rap your head around the fact that, even with 52+ million people, the yields are so low that no US carrier wants to serve the country non-stop from a West Coast hub. I would imagine that AirAsia or another LCC will make a killing there with low-cost service.

It was JUST pointed out that population size doesn't directly correlate to longhaul air service; yet you're expressing amazement that a place doesn't have extensive longhaul air service, based on its population size. Um....... :?


flyfresno wrote:
So, I guess my statement should have been, "What's odd about Japan is that for such an economic powerhouse with cities that are so big, it still happens."

As someone else just made note, it's not a purely Japanese thing. Same for France. Same for S.Korea. Same for several other developed places.


1) I understand what you are saying about MNL, I am just saying that it's still amazing to me that such a large and geographically isolated population base doesn't have the economics/business/(insert whatever you want to call the forces that produce enough high yield passengers) to support more flights. That's all.

2) I tried to point out that the population of Japan is larger than France and Kansai is larger than Paris and much, much larger than any other metro area in France, so it's not a fair comparison (neither is South Korea, which is much smaller geographically, has less than half the population of Japan, and more than 50% of S. Korea's population lives within the Seoul metro area vs less than 30% of Japanese in the very large Tokyo metro area). In fact, Japan is bigger than Germany in size (only included to illustrate similar or larger distances between metro areas in Japan than in Germany), population, and economy, yet Germany has multiple metro areas with more flights to the US and Canada than the Kansai region does. Obviously Lufthansa and Air Berlin hubs factor into this comparison, but they only account for some of that discrepancy.
 
spacecadet
Posts: 3464
Joined: Thu Sep 20, 2001 3:36 am

Re: Why no US-Sapporo flights?

Tue Dec 27, 2016 5:42 am

flyfresno wrote:
In fact, Japan is bigger than Germany in size (only included to illustrate similar or larger distances between metro areas in Japan than in Germany), population, and economy, yet Germany has multiple metro areas with more flights to the US and Canada than the Kansai region does. Obviously Lufthansa and Air Berlin hubs factor into this comparison, but they only account for some of that discrepancy.


There are a couple reasons I could think of for Germany to have more direct destinations from the US mainland than Japan:

1) Europe vs. Asia - the US just has more historical ties to the EU region. That would include business ties that have been built up over centuries. (Not all business is major corporations; a lot of it's families who know people on both sides of the Atlantic, and have built ties over generations.)

2) Japan *itself* being more hub-centric than Germany. Japan is just very much about Tokyo as *the* cosmopolitan center of the country. As big as they are, most of Japan's other cities don't even think of *themselves* as "world cities". They're much more regional, or just Japanese. Osaka/Kyoto together come close to making a second "world metro area", but Kyoto gets mostly tourist traffic and Osaka feels a lot more local when you're actually there - there aren't a lot of westerners or western companies.

3) WWII, then reunification and its continuing effects. Germany still mostly welcomes the US and we have large populations in various cities (Heidelberg, for example, is 50% American). Germany still sees the US as an important military ally and is happy to house our weapons and troops there. Japan, on the other hand, likes the US from afar but does not want our military on their soil much at all. Okinawa and Fukuoka are our biggest military bases there but the US population is shrinking, and not particularly welcome. Still, if there is new direct service I'd probably expect these cities to get it first.

4) Simple language. German is a lot easier for Americans to learn, and vice versa, than Japanese.

There's also stuff like the fact that Northwest intentionally built a hub in Tokyo shortly after WWII, which Delta still uses. So Delta's easily explainable even outside the factors above. As others have pointed out, some other airlines have tried direct flights to a few other cities, but with mixed success at best.
I'm tired of being a wanna-be league bowler. I wanna be a league bowler!
 
SFOtoORD
Posts: 1113
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2007 2:26 am

Re: Why no US-Sapporo flights?

Tue Dec 27, 2016 6:03 am

spacecadet wrote:

2) Japan *itself* being more hub-centric than Germany. Japan is just very much about Tokyo as *the* cosmopolitan center of the country. As big as they are, most of Japan's other cities don't even think of *themselves* as "world cities". They're much more regional, or just Japanese. Osaka/Kyoto together come close to making a second "world metro area", but Kyoto gets mostly tourist traffic and Osaka feels a lot more local when you're actually there - there aren't a lot of westerners or western companies.

3) WWII, then reunification and its continuing effects. Germany still mostly welcomes the US and we have large populations in various cities (Heidelberg, for example, is 50% American). Germany still sees the US as an important military ally and is happy to house our weapons and troops there. Japan, on the other hand, likes the US from afar but does not want our military on their soil much at all. Okinawa and Fukuoka are our biggest military bases there but the US population is shrinking, and not particularly welcome. Still, if there is new direct service I'd probably expect these cities to get it first.


Tokyo is a city of 30M+ and 4-5x bigger than the biggest German city. It's just a big market. It doesn't have anything to do with WW II.

The one thing you didn't mention is the cultural aspect that historically the Japanese haven't done as much Intl travel, but are starting to do more. My personal experience is also that you'll find many more Germans who speak English than Japanese who speak English.
 
trex8
Posts: 5338
Joined: Sat Nov 02, 2002 9:04 am

Re: Why no US-Sapporo flights?

Tue Dec 27, 2016 1:37 pm

Would CTS make for a good stop for e.g. VN doing US flights (they need to stop somewhere, KIX /NRTwhile maybe larger market seems too expensive and saving 500 miles on the transpacific segment) or even say CI or BR to the US using A330s? CI runs a 744 daily TPE-CTS, something like a TPE-CTS-SJC ??? Break up the flight enough to use an A333 transpacific, or at least not use an A359 which could be kept for the 5000-6000nm routes, and go double daily with a TPE-CTS with A333 and then the transpacific flight.
 
User avatar
wolfsburg
Posts: 64
Joined: Fri Dec 16, 2016 6:05 am

Re: Why no US-Sapporo flights?

Thu Dec 29, 2016 4:03 am

CTS is not an ideal airport as the delay and cancellation can be extremely serious during winter time. These few days about 6000 passengers stranded due to bad weather and most of the flight are regional and domestic flight. Cannot imagine if transatlantic passengers getting stucked there and the inbound flights all being diverted to Tokyo...
 
b6sea
Posts: 569
Joined: Mon Aug 22, 2005 5:44 pm

Re: Why no US-Sapporo flights?

Thu Jan 05, 2017 1:36 am

The other thing about Japan is that it is a large enough country, as a market, that many companies can trade inside Japan and be huge enough to never need to seek external markets. There are only a handful of countries that have large enough populations combined with high per capita incomes where this is the case. Combine that with a notoriously inward-looking cultural tendency and the economic struggles of the past two decades and you get today's Japan. That's something that makes the Kansai region both large in population as well as wealth but not strong in international business traffic. Nagoya, Sapporo, Fukuoka and other cities suffer from this as well. Although the economy is very Tokyo-centric, these regions, were they in another country with similar demography would likely see larger amounts of international service.
 
incitatus
Posts: 3308
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 1:49 am

Re: Why no US-Sapporo flights?

Thu Jan 05, 2017 2:08 am

What is amazing about Osaka is not the relatively small long-haul network for its population. It is its relatively small long-haul network for its gross metropolitan product. The GMP of the Kansai region is top 15 of the world. Osaka is no Manila! But to some extent the Osaka economy is very centered on domestic business.

Just the history of service in ITM/KIX tells us that airlines have struggled to make long-service there work. There is so much potential for leisure traffic, both inbound and outbound, Look at CTS compared to KIX: population and economy much smaller. An airline would only venture long-haul into CTS if KIX was doing wonderfully.
I do not consume Murdoch products including the Wall Street Journal
 
PanzerPowner
Posts: 486
Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2016 11:19 pm

Re: Why no US-Sapporo flights?

Thu Jan 05, 2017 4:09 am

Im sure there are no Sapporo Okadama flights to the US because its so small. Unless your reffering to RJCC.
Well uh, I obviously decided to refine this but i dont know how.
 
c933103
Posts: 3824
Joined: Wed May 18, 2016 7:23 pm

Re: Why no US-Sapporo flights?

Wed May 31, 2017 6:25 am

spacecadet wrote:
There are a couple reasons I could think of for Germany to have more direct destinations from the US mainland than Japan:

1) Europe vs. Asia - the US just has more historical ties to the EU region. That would include business ties that have been built up over centuries. (Not all business is major corporations; a lot of it's families who know people on both sides of the Atlantic, and have built ties over generations.)

2) Japan *itself* being more hub-centric than Germany. Japan is just very much about Tokyo as *the* cosmopolitan center of the country. As big as they are, most of Japan's other cities don't even think of *themselves* as "world cities". They're much more regional, or just Japanese. Osaka/Kyoto together come close to making a second "world metro area", but Kyoto gets mostly tourist traffic and Osaka feels a lot more local when you're actually there - there aren't a lot of westerners or western companies.

3) WWII, then reunification and its continuing effects. Germany still mostly welcomes the US and we have large populations in various cities (Heidelberg, for example, is 50% American). Germany still sees the US as an important military ally and is happy to house our weapons and troops there. Japan, on the other hand, likes the US from afar but does not want our military on their soil much at all. Okinawa and Fukuoka are our biggest military bases there but the US population is shrinking, and not particularly welcome. Still, if there is new direct service I'd probably expect these cities to get it first.

4) Simple language. German is a lot easier for Americans to learn, and vice versa, than Japanese.

There's also stuff like the fact that Northwest intentionally built a hub in Tokyo shortly after WWII, which Delta still uses. So Delta's easily explainable even outside the factors above. As others have pointed out, some other airlines have tried direct flights to a few other cities, but with mixed success at best.

Some Kansai residents would blame major Japanese corp having a Tokyo-centric mindset for the reason why Osaka/Kyoto getting much less contact with the world and international flights than Tokyo, just like Manchester people thought so to London-based corps/airlines, or Southern/Northern India.



ernestxwb wrote:
CTS serves the whole Hokkaido region which is much greater than 2 million. Auckland has even less and yet supports even more long haul flights. Demand shouldn't only be judged by the immediate local population imo. Their economy might not be at its best at its current state but I highlly doubt its bad enough to stop people from travelling.

But for example if someone is living in Hakodate or Kushiro, would they rather travel to CTS by train/bus/car, or fly to NRT from local airport and then transfer to international flights?
When no other countries around the world is going to militarily stop China and its subordinate fom abusing its citizens within its national boundary, it is unreasonable to expect those abuse can be countered with purely peaceful means.
 
AWACSooner
Posts: 2453
Joined: Tue Jan 22, 2008 12:35 am

Re: Why no US-Sapporo flights?

Wed May 31, 2017 11:32 am

spacecadet wrote:
flyfresno wrote:


3) (Heidelberg, for example, is 50% American...Okinawa and Fukuoka are our biggest military bases there but the US population is shrinking, and not particularly welcome

No...just no. Heidelberg has a population pushing close to 160K people...there aren't 80K Americans there...hell, there aren't 80K Americans living in Kaiserslautern, which is arguably the largest American ex-pat community in the world.
We have ZERO military bases in Fukuoka...the closest bases we have to FUK are Iwakuni (near Hiroshima) and Sasebo (near Nagasaki), and they're nowhere near the size of other bases we have in Japan (namely Misawa, Yokota and Yokosuka...all our forces in Okinawa notwithstanding). Not particularly welcome? Are you kidding? Other than the Marine/Navy shenangans that pop up in Okinawa from time to time...
 
BENAir01
Posts: 411
Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2015 7:42 pm

Re: Why no US-Sapporo flights?

Wed May 31, 2017 1:55 pm

trex8 wrote:
Would CTS make for a good stop for e.g. VN doing US flights (they need to stop somewhere, KIX /NRTwhile maybe larger market seems too expensive and saving 500 miles on the transpacific segment) or even say CI or BR to the US using A330s? CI runs a 744 daily TPE-CTS, something like a TPE-CTS-SJC ??? Break up the flight enough to use an A333 transpacific, or at least not use an A359 which could be kept for the 5000-6000nm routes, and go double daily with a TPE-CTS with A333 and then the transpacific flight.


Hey all, this is my first post. I've been a lurker here for something like 8 years, since it was actually an I t'élisent site. I'm only 16 but my dad is a pilot and I spend all my free time reaseeching aviation, so I will do my best to a good poster.
To respond to this post, CI did do that previously, with a 747 doing TPE-KIX-JFK. However they stopped that service with the arrival of the 77W's which operate the service nonstop.
If I remember correctly, the service left late night from TPE, was in KIX around midnight, and arrived early morning (6am ish) in JFK, left at like 8 or 9 am getting in mid afternoon in KIX for an evening arrival in TPE.
-Ben
 
ATLFlyer323
Posts: 512
Joined: Sun Jan 16, 2005 2:01 am

Re: Why no US-Sapporo flights?

Wed May 31, 2017 2:34 pm

"But for example if someone is living in Hakodate or Kushiro, would they rather travel to CTS by train/bus/car, or fly to NRT from local airport and then transfer to international flights?"

To be honest... most people living in those cities would book a domestic trip over an international one. Have you ever been to Japan? At every local train station or TV program they are always promoting domestic trips. Japan itself is highly traveled domestically for tourism. They always had amazing advertisements in every public space when I lived there that made me want to take my vacation time domestically over internationally.
Everyday, the fluffy temptation of wheat!

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos