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StTim
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Delta confirm they are not taking the 787

Tue Dec 27, 2016 9:47 pm

 
Sooner787
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Re: Delta confirm they are not taking the 787

Tue Dec 27, 2016 9:53 pm

Can't say I'm surprised, The way DL is loading up on Airbus widebodies ,
makes me wonder if DL will ever order another Boeing widebody?
 
EddieDude
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Re: Delta confirm they are not taking the 787

Tue Dec 27, 2016 9:57 pm

Well, it is official now.

So, how long will the "newer" 763ERs stay around? How old are the A332s btw?
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DfwRevolution
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Re: Delta confirm they are not taking the 787

Tue Dec 27, 2016 10:03 pm

Sooner787 wrote:
Can't say I'm surprised, The way DL is loading up on Airbus widebodies ,
makes me wonder if DL will ever order another Boeing widebody?


"Ever" is a bit of a laugh. In the 2000s, AA and Airbus were butting heads over the cause of the AA587 crash and roughly 10 years later AA has a big backlog of A32x and A350 on order. Relationships ebb and flow.
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FriscoHeavy
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Re: Delta confirm they are not taking the 787

Tue Dec 27, 2016 10:05 pm

Very Disappointing. All Flavors of the 787 would have served DL well in some capacity.
Whatever
 
CX747
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Re: Delta confirm they are not taking the 787

Tue Dec 27, 2016 10:06 pm

Hit to the 787 program. Can't say we didn't see this one coming. Does this cancellation in any way open up production slots that can help Boeing in current sales campaigns?
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787fan8
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Re: Delta confirm they are not taking the 787

Tue Dec 27, 2016 10:06 pm

This doesn't surprise me. I had a feeling DL would see the A350 and the A330NEO as better fits for the fleet than the 787.
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commavia
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Re: Delta confirm they are not taking the 787

Tue Dec 27, 2016 10:08 pm

Indeed no surprise at all, and long expected.

This will serve as yet another point of departure between the strategy of Delta and its two largest U.S. rivals. It will be interesting to see how it plays out and how, if at all, this affects Delta's network going forward - particularly across the Pacific, where AA and United can't seem to get 787s fast enough to deploy them.
 
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MrHMSH
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Re: Delta confirm they are not taking the 787

Tue Dec 27, 2016 10:10 pm

A shame, variety is always welcome. I suppose this opens the door for more Airbus widebodies, it would be strange (but not unheard of) to cancel and then reopen bids for when they come closer to deciding what to replace their older aircraft with. Which aircraft don't currently have designated replacements, is it just the 77Ls and some 763s/764s?
 
ehaase
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Re: Delta confirm they are not taking the 787

Tue Dec 27, 2016 10:12 pm

I guess we'll see more 350-900's ordered when it's time to replace 777's and more 330-900's ordered when it's time to replace 767-400ER's and newer 767-300ER's. I guess that could be 8 to 10 years in the future. I wonder if Delta will order 321neoLR to replace 767's on routes that can't justify the 330-900.
 
blueflyer
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Re: Delta confirm they are not taking the 787

Tue Dec 27, 2016 10:13 pm

CX747 wrote:
Hit to the 787 program.

Is it really? Boeing didn't need the extra sales or another marquee customer to justify the existence of the 787 program. Of all of Delta's past and present Boeing orders, I'd say this cancellation will attract the least notice and make the least difference both for Delta and Boeing.
 
LY777
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Re: Delta confirm they are not taking the 787

Tue Dec 27, 2016 10:13 pm

Too bad...
The 787 would have been an ideal 767 replacement.
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Re: Delta confirm they are not taking the 787

Tue Dec 27, 2016 10:13 pm

I wonder if we'll see an announcement of any additional decisions they've made regarding widebody fleet. Not surprised at all.
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seabosdca
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Re: Delta confirm they are not taking the 787

Tue Dec 27, 2016 10:14 pm

I have to say I'm surprised. Against conventional wisdom, I expected these 787s to be delivered. The Airbuses on order are not enough by themselves to meet Delta's widebody needs in the near future unless some 767-300ERs go beyond 30 years in service. I think an aircraft smaller than the A350-900 with true transpacific range would also have been very helpful in continuing to grow the Seattle hub.

With this in mind I expect another widebody order within the next few years. Most likely will be additional A350s, but I wouldn't rule out a renewed 787 order after a RFP process, likely under better terms than the one that was cancelled. In particular I expect that Boeing might have been unwilling to retain very favorable pricing on the 787-8s in the event of conversion to 787-9 or -10.
 
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compensateme
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Re: Delta confirm they are not taking the 787

Tue Dec 27, 2016 10:16 pm

The only people who are surprised are the Boeing fan boys who desperately wanted to see the 787 in DL's fleet. It was clear when DL placed the 330/350 order that it had no intenton of operating the 787 in the near future; it just took awhile to hammer out terms of the cancellation.
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Stitch
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Re: Delta confirm they are not taking the 787

Tue Dec 27, 2016 10:17 pm

Was pretty much confirmed when Airbus won the last major RFP and management said the 787-9 just wasn't competitive for DL's network. Delta also long ago lost any preferential pricing for those 18 planes so taking delivery would have cost them literally billions more than what NW signed on for. I assume they held on to see what the 787-9 and 787-10 brought to the table and decided the A350-900 and A330-900 were the better fit.


CX747 wrote:
Hit to the 787 program.


Yes, but probably better overall for the program as Delta was not going to go bigger and the 787-8 is now the outlier in the program. Overall, probably a benefit to Boeing as it likely played a role in the significant 737-900ER order Delta placed.


MrHMSH wrote:
Which aircraft don't currently have designated replacements, is it just the 77Ls and some 763s/764s?


I fully expect the A350-900HGW will replace the 777-200LR and the 767s will be replaced by more frequencies on A321-200s unless Boeing does launch MoM.

seabosdca wrote:
I think an aircraft smaller than the A350-900 with true transpacific range would also have been very helpful in continuing to grow the Seattle hub.


The A330-900 should be more than fine for TPAC out of SEA to Japan, China and Korea - especially if it gets another MTOW boost to 245,000kg and then there will be future SFC improvements on the Trent 7000.
Last edited by Stitch on Tue Dec 27, 2016 10:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
Sooner787
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Re: Delta confirm they are not taking the 787

Tue Dec 27, 2016 10:21 pm

commavia wrote:
Indeed no surprise at all, and long expected.

This will serve as yet another point of departure between the strategy of Delta and its two largest U.S. rivals. It will be interesting to see how it plays out and how, if at all, this affects Delta's network going forward - particularly across the Pacific, where AA and United can't seem to get 787s fast enough to deploy them.


I suppose their new A359's will fly the transpac routes and their new A339 NEO's will fly translant?
 
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compensateme
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Re: Delta confirm they are not taking the 787

Tue Dec 27, 2016 10:26 pm

seabosdca wrote:
I have to say I'm surprised. Against conventional wisdom, I expected these 787s to be delivered. The Airbuses on order are not enough by themselves to meet Delta's widebody needs in the near future unless some 767-300ERs go beyond 30 years in service. I think an aircraft smaller than the A350-900 with true transpacific range would also have been very helpful in continuing to grow the Seattle hub.


Most people don't realie how much capacity is coming online -- the capacity coming online from the 52 330/350 is sufficient to replace the 744 and most of the 763 fleet. Also consider that DL operates ~50 763/764 built in the late 1990s/early 2000s, making them the same age as the 777er fleet and just a few years younger than the NW 330 fleet. Like it or not, these aircraft will be around for awhile. Especially since some of the 763 flying is likely very marginal (e.g. Secondary Japan-Hawaii) and we're not going to see DL order shiny new 787 to operate on JFK-LAX.

I've been saying this for a long while but those insisting DL will launch a major widebody order in the near future will be very disappointed.

Of course this is a.net so somebody will soon start a 'what will replace DL's 350s? They'll be old soon' thread ;).
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alfa164
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Re: Delta confirm they are not taking the 787

Tue Dec 27, 2016 10:40 pm

FriscoHeavy wrote:
Very Disappointing. All Flavors of the 787 would have served DL well in some capacity.

:checkmark: Agreed. The 787 has been a game-changer for both AA and UA, allowing them to forge entries into markets that seemed improbable - if not impossible - without that aircraft. It looks like DL could soon be relegated #3 in the Trans-Pacific market.
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jfk777
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Re: Delta confirm they are not taking the 787

Tue Dec 27, 2016 10:45 pm

Sad but not surprising that DL would kill the NW 787 order. The 787 would have been a great smaller then A350 ultra long haul plane.
 
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compensateme
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Re: Delta confirm they are not taking the 787

Tue Dec 27, 2016 10:48 pm

alfa164 wrote:
FriscoHeavy wrote:
Very Disappointing. All Flavors of the 787 would have served DL well in some capacity.

:checkmark: Agreed. The 787 has been a game-changer for both AA and UA, allowing them to forge entries into markets that seemed improbable - if not impossible - without that aircraft. It looks like DL could soon be relegated #3 in the Trans-Pacific market.


What routes did the 787 yield that were a "game changer" for AA/UA that the 359 couldn't replicate for DL??
We don’t care what your next flight is.
 
MileHighClubber
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Re: Delta confirm they are not taking the 787

Tue Dec 27, 2016 10:51 pm

Where is the 767-400 dude who was writing letters to congressmen ans senators when Delta first ordered Airbuses a few years ago?
 
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scbriml
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Re: Delta confirm they are not taking the 787

Tue Dec 27, 2016 10:51 pm

Not unexpected, but surprising not to see this as part of an order for another Boeing model. Maybe that's yet to come?

FriscoHeavy wrote:
All Flavors of the 787 would have served DL well in some capacity.


Presumably DL decided the A330 and A350 would serve them even better.

LY777 wrote:
The 787 would have been an ideal 767 replacement.


For some, but apparently not for DL.
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11725Flyer
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Re: Delta confirm they are not taking the 787

Tue Dec 27, 2016 10:58 pm

It's too bad, really. I continue to believe that DL's SEA hub would be much broader (and likely more profitable) with the 787.
 
MD80MKE
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Re: Delta confirm they are not taking the 787

Tue Dec 27, 2016 11:00 pm

For most secondary Chinese markets, as long as the A330neo can do it from SEA, why bother ordering more than a dozen of -8's?
 
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TWA772LR
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Re: Delta confirm they are not taking the 787

Tue Dec 27, 2016 11:02 pm

compensateme wrote:
alfa164 wrote:
FriscoHeavy wrote:
Very Disappointing. All Flavors of the 787 would have served DL well in some capacity.

:checkmark: Agreed. The 787 has been a game-changer for both AA and UA, allowing them to forge entries into markets that seemed improbable - if not impossible - without that aircraft. It looks like DL could soon be relegated #3 in the Trans-Pacific market.


What routes did the 787 yield that were a "game changer" for AA/UA that the 359 couldn't replicate for DL??

Secondary Chinese cities for UA that has lead to the mad rush of Chinese airlines hopping on that bandwagon, and almoat all of AAs entire TPAC network.
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CX747
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Re: Delta confirm they are not taking the 787

Tue Dec 27, 2016 11:05 pm

A few questions.

1: Do we believe this cancellation was part of the large 737-900ER order?

2: Do we see this cancellation as being part of a large future Delta order for other Boeing products?

3: Can Boeing use the freed up line positions in current sales campaigns to get 787s to customers sooner?
"History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or timid." D. Eisenhower
 
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compensateme
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Re: Delta confirm they are not taking the 787

Tue Dec 27, 2016 11:06 pm

TWA772LR wrote:
Secondary Chinese cities for UA that has lead to the mad rush of Chinese airlines hopping on that bandwagon, and almoat all of AAs entire TPAC network


The 359 isn't capable of serving these markets?

Sometimes the problem is location, location, location - SEA isn't SFO and the likelihood of it operating to secondary Chinese markets isn't great to begin with. As it is, SEA-PVG has been downgauged to the 763.
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coolian2
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Re: Delta confirm they are not taking the 787

Tue Dec 27, 2016 11:06 pm

I half suspected the A330NEO would kill the order, but I'm still rather surprised as airlines operate them in tandem (or will, but I'm including the A330CEO here).

I would now probably assume we'll see either a 777 (classic if options remain) or 737MAX order.
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StTim
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Re: Delta confirm they are not taking the 787

Tue Dec 27, 2016 11:08 pm

I am not sure line positions were ever allocated to these frames. I say that as this was not a surprise to Boeing.
 
globalcabotage
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Re: Delta confirm they are not taking the 787

Tue Dec 27, 2016 11:08 pm

No surprise. DLs widebody fleet of the future is with Airbus. I'm sure Boeing will reallocate the production slots to other airlines and DL will probably take a few more modern smurfs.
 
micstatic
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Re: Delta confirm they are not taking the 787

Tue Dec 27, 2016 11:13 pm

At first I was pumped for the 787. Then I saw the passenger reviews and interior configurations. I consider this a win for delta passengers.
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ehaase
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Re: Delta confirm they are not taking the 787

Tue Dec 27, 2016 11:22 pm

I believe the poster Delta L1011man, who works for Delta, said there were rumors of an order for 737-8MAX replacing the 787-8 order. But Delta has a lot on its plate with many 739's, 321's, 359's, 339's, and the Bombardiers coming. I wouldn't be surprised to see Delta just wait for good deals much later in the neo and MAX programs as well as used aircraft.
 
georgiabill
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Re: Delta confirm they are not taking the 787

Tue Dec 27, 2016 11:24 pm

I think when it time for another DL widebody order the 787-10 will have been in service and DL will have real performance numbers to consider and evaluate when considering it's orders. If the TATL routes have shown growth and or DL needs a larger plane for it's routes the 787-10 might then get ordered. Especially if the 787-10 performs better than expected.
In the mean time perhaps DL might take their deposits and transfer them to 77W'S. I am sure Boeing would be happy to sell a few more.
 
neutronstar73
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Re: Delta confirm they are not taking the 787

Tue Dec 27, 2016 11:26 pm

compensateme wrote:
The only people who are surprised are the Boeing fan boys who desperately wanted to see the 787 in DL's fleet. It was clear when DL placed the 330/350 order that it had no intenton of operating the 787 in the near future; it just took awhile to hammer out terms of the cancellation.


AAAAAAND Richard Anderson's recent history of burning Boeing every chance he gets continues.....even when he is no longer at Delta!
 
grbauc
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Re: Delta confirm they are not taking the 787

Tue Dec 27, 2016 11:28 pm

CX747 wrote:
Hit to the 787 program. Can't say we didn't see this one coming. Does this cancellation in any way open up production slots that can help Boeing in current sales campaigns?


Little over dramatic. I'd say a hit to Boeing and current widebodies to delta maybe. Delta made there choice awhile ago. Delta's use of buying used aircraft along with the glut of new aircraft ordered by airlines and I think delta knows they are going to be able to pickup bargains in the used market.

I would of loved to see new 787's in DL fleet it still could happen one day.
 
grbauc
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Re: Delta confirm they are not taking the 787

Tue Dec 27, 2016 11:38 pm

commavia wrote:
Indeed no surprise at all, and long expected.

This will serve as yet another point of departure between the strategy of Delta and its two largest U.S. rivals. It will be interesting to see how it plays out and how, if at all, this affects Delta's network going forward - particularly across the Pacific, where AA and United can't seem to get 787s fast enough to deploy them.


Yes this will be interesting for sure. The 787 family I thought they could of made a good home at delta. I really think delta is smart or at least appears so with there outside of the box approach.

Man I wish I was in the nagotiation with delta.
 
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Stitch
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Re: Delta confirm they are not taking the 787

Tue Dec 27, 2016 11:38 pm

CX747 wrote:
1: Do we believe this cancellation was part of the large 737-900ER order?


It possibly played a role, IMO.


CX747 wrote:
2: Do we see this cancellation as being part of a large future Delta order for other Boeing products?


Possibly an exchange for MAX and/or MOM.


CX747 wrote:
3: Can Boeing use the freed up line positions in current sales campaigns to get 787s to customers sooner?


There were no 787 production slots assigned to Delta's order.
 
kabq737
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Re: Delta confirm they are not taking the 787

Tue Dec 27, 2016 11:43 pm

I love the 787 and I love Delta but I must say I have been suspicious of this order for a long time. It doesn't make sense for Delta to have a small fleet of 787s mixed in with their future widebody fleet of Airbus aircraft. It would be expensive to have such a small fleet from another manufacturer mixed in.
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Q
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Re: Delta confirm they are not taking the 787

Tue Dec 27, 2016 11:48 pm

Maybe one day, if CEO retired or leave Delta. New CEO or member boards may order 787-9 near future. I hope so!

Q
 
Vctony
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Re: Delta confirm they are not taking the 787

Tue Dec 27, 2016 11:52 pm

kabq737 wrote:
I love the 787 and I love Delta but I must say I have been suspicious of this order for a long time. It doesn't make sense for Delta to have a small fleet of 787s mixed in with their future widebody fleet of Airbus aircraft. It would be expensive to have such a small fleet from another manufacturer mixed in.


They currently only have 18 777s.
 
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KarelXWB
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Re: Delta confirm they are not taking the 787

Tue Dec 27, 2016 11:55 pm

Delta Air Lines has reached an agreement with The Boeing Company to cancel an order placed for 18 Boeing 787 Dreamliner aircraft that Delta assumed in 2008 as part of its merger with Northwest Airlines.


So the deal is off. I'm a bit surprised, I always believed the 787 would play a role in Delta's fleet.
What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.
 
grbauc
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Re: Delta confirm they are not taking the 787

Tue Dec 27, 2016 11:55 pm

Vctony wrote:
kabq737 wrote:
I love the 787 and I love Delta but I must say I have been suspicious of this order for a long time. It doesn't make sense for Delta to have a small fleet of 787s mixed in with their future widebody fleet of Airbus aircraft. It would be expensive to have such a small fleet from another manufacturer mixed in.


They currently only have 18 777s.

I believe delta will be in the market for used 777's
 
BravoOne
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Re: Delta confirm they are not taking the 787

Tue Dec 27, 2016 11:58 pm

I'm shocked:) DL and Boeing are not on good terms these days. I suspect there will be more surprises during 2017. Boeing acknowledges that Airbus builds a damn good product, and this only confirms the poor leadership at Boeing over the last ten+ years. The really bad news is that it continues to this very day.
 
grbauc
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Re: Delta confirm they are not taking the 787

Wed Dec 28, 2016 12:07 am

BravoOne wrote:
I'm shocked:) DL and Boeing are not on good terms these days. I suspect there will be more surprises during 2017. Boeing acknowledges that Airbus builds a damn good product, and this only confirms the poor leadership at Boeing over the last ten+ years. The really bad news is that it continues to this very day.

Well I don't know if I agree with that. Delta sure has some big 737 orders they have made the last two years. I think it's delta playing to each manufacturer to their weaknesses and strength. I believe airbus is the stronger of the two players in the narrowbody single i'll planes. On the widebody front I feel Boeing has a slight edge. I could be wrong just a feeling I get when reading about what's going on.
 
DDR
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Re: Delta confirm they are not taking the 787

Wed Dec 28, 2016 12:30 am

A Net is a very confusing place. How many threads are there where people have posted they would never fly the 787 because of the 9 across Y seating? Now tons of people are sad because DL won't be flying this plane? Ugh. Maybe DL actually cares about comfort and went with the Airbus planes? I wish they would replace the 737-900s with A321 but it looks like that isn't going to happen.
 
catiii
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Re: Delta confirm they are not taking the 787

Wed Dec 28, 2016 12:36 am

MrHMSH wrote:
A shame, variety is always welcome. I suppose this opens the door for more Airbus widebodies, it would be strange (but not unheard of) to cancel and then reopen bids for when they come closer to deciding what to replace their older aircraft with. Which aircraft don't currently have designated replacements, is it just the 77Ls and some 763s/764s?


Why is variety always welcome?

And the 764s arent going anywhere for a while....
 
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MrHMSH
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Re: Delta confirm they are not taking the 787

Wed Dec 28, 2016 12:42 am

catiii wrote:
MrHMSH wrote:
A shame, variety is always welcome. I suppose this opens the door for more Airbus widebodies, it would be strange (but not unheard of) to cancel and then reopen bids for when they come closer to deciding what to replace their older aircraft with. Which aircraft don't currently have designated replacements, is it just the 77Ls and some 763s/764s?


Why is variety always welcome?

And the 764s arent going anywhere for a while....


Because too much similarity is boring. Given the choice I always want to see a bit of everything in an airline's fleet. That's the opposite of what a rational and sensible fleet would be, but few people like aviation because of it being sensible. It should be crazy and over the top. That's why we're here, isn't it? Anyway, A339s and A359s < A339s, A359s and 787s.
 
MSPNWA
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Re: Delta confirm they are not taking the 787

Wed Dec 28, 2016 12:50 am

Finally this is official. Plenty of people were wrong on this one. They simply couldn't accept the obvious conclusion to this.

It's too bad too, since DL could have badly used the 787 from day 1. As time goes by, the consequences to their Pacific network only get worse. Their spat with Boeing isn't doing either of them any good.
 
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11725Flyer
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Re: Delta confirm they are not taking the 787

Wed Dec 28, 2016 12:52 am

BravoOne wrote:
I'm shocked:) DL and Boeing are not on good terms these days. I suspect there will be more surprises during 2017. Boeing acknowledges that Airbus builds a damn good product, and this only confirms the poor leadership at Boeing over the last ten+ years. The really bad news is that it continues to this very day.


Total nonsense. Care to let us know what surprises you foresee in 2017?

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Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos