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Whiteguy
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Re: Delta confirm they are not taking the 787

Wed Dec 28, 2016 4:27 pm

When were these aircraft due to start deliveries? Looks like some aircraft/slots just opened up for Westjets planned expansion of their wide body program...
 
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Channex757
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Re: Delta confirm they are not taking the 787

Wed Dec 28, 2016 4:31 pm

Delta's widebody fleet seems to be crystallising nicely. The 787 would have been a bit of an orphan in the short term.

As well as cancelling the 787, Delta had to go to Rolls Royce and cancel the Trent 1000 deal. That would have been part of the bigger overall deal with RR that establishes a new Trent facility with TechOps for the other motors they are taking in, and will presumably be a good dollar generator when DL starts maintenance for other carriers. TechOps will offer maintenance on the XWB and 7000 versions, and airlines may see their profits sliding in the next few years but overhauls still need to be done. It's steady, dependable revenue.
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: Delta confirm they are not taking the 787

Wed Dec 28, 2016 4:40 pm

[quote="AngMoh ........ My assumption why DL did not go for the 787: in their business model, running at low capex is important and more so than for other airlines. They go consistently not for the latest and greatest but for some thing which is still competitive but low cost to procure. And the A330 is significantly cheaper to procure than the 787 while still being competitive (but not the best) on DL routes. One past comment from Richard Anderson: he likes everything on the 787 except its price....[/quote]

Boeing needs to write off its past production losses. The extra charge of some $30 millions per 787 sold to recover past fictitious declared profit is believed by about no one. It puts a millstone about the neck of future sales. Wall Street likely has factored much of this in its current stock valuation.
Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
 
spacecookie
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Re: Delta confirm they are not taking the 787

Wed Dec 28, 2016 5:00 pm

no problem for boeing.
The 787 is not selling bad.
 
mpdpilot
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Re: Delta confirm they are not taking the 787

Wed Dec 28, 2016 5:06 pm

KarelXWB wrote:
Let's face it, the airline industry is cutting capacity. Lots of airplane orders are being deferred, others are canceled. DL is yet another airline that is getting rid of redundant airplane orders.


That's an interesting thought. I had the same thought about cutting capacity, which i would have thought Delta would have loved the smaller yet capable 787. There are a few transpacific routes that Delta could reduce capacity by flying the 787-8 on instead of the forthcoming A350s.

Interesting times ahead indeed.
One mile of highway gets you one mile, one mile of runway gets you anywhere.
 
planespotter20
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Re: Delta confirm they are not taking the 787

Wed Dec 28, 2016 5:21 pm

Good news for DL, the less plane types they buy the cheaper it is for them. I think the people at Delta know what they're doing, and that is why they chose the A330neo and A350 instead of the 787. I also would love to see a 787 in DL colors but its probably not going to happen. I don't think Boeing is worried, since that order was deffered from 2010 to 2020, and that entire deal had to be looked at skeptically, especially after the Airbus order. Considering DL still has some older generation aircraft in their fleet (767/777) we could see another order (most likely Airbus) in the near future. I would say the order would just be an extension of the already ordered a330neo's and a350s.
 
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flybynight
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Re: Delta confirm they are not taking the 787

Wed Dec 28, 2016 6:06 pm

LY777 wrote:
Too bad...
The 787 would have been an ideal 767 replacement.


True. But it fairness, so is the A350.
Heia Norge!
 
RalXWB
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Re: Delta confirm they are not taking the 787

Wed Dec 28, 2016 6:13 pm

After reading "Buy American" "They will convert the 787 into 737Max10 (hahaha)", I really regret having opened this thread or do I have to wait for "Bring those jobs back!". Anyway my laugh for today :banghead:
 
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Stitch
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Re: Delta confirm they are not taking the 787

Wed Dec 28, 2016 6:36 pm

Whiteguy wrote:
When were these aircraft due to start deliveries? Looks like some aircraft/slots just opened up for Westjets planned expansion of their wide body program...


There were no production slots assigned to any of these planes (likely because they were never intended to be built as 787-8s) so cancelling them has no effect on 787 availability.


mpdpilot wrote:
KarelXWB wrote:
Let's face it, the airline industry is cutting capacity. Lots of airplane orders are being deferred, others are canceled. DL is yet another airline that is getting rid of redundant airplane orders.


That's an interesting thought. I had the same thought about cutting capacity, which i would have thought Delta would have loved the smaller yet capable 787. There are a few transpacific routes that Delta could reduce capacity by flying the 787-8 on instead of the forthcoming A350s.


Delta can probably get a very strong deal on the A330-800 to fill that role.
 
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KarelXWB
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Re: Delta confirm they are not taking the 787

Wed Dec 28, 2016 6:40 pm

mpdpilot wrote:
That's an interesting thought. I had the same thought about cutting capacity, which i would have thought Delta would have loved the smaller yet capable 787. There are a few transpacific routes that Delta could reduce capacity by flying the 787-8 on instead of the forthcoming A350s.


With the first A350 about to enter final assembly, canceling the order would be too costly I imagine. The 787 on the other hand was far from firm, Boeing never assigned production slots.

Interesting times ahead indeed.


Indeed. Boeing and Airbus should be careful with further production ramp-ups.
What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.
 
airzona11
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Re: Delta confirm they are not taking the 787

Wed Dec 28, 2016 6:56 pm

KarelXWB wrote:
Let's face it, the airline industry is cutting capacity. Lots of airplane orders are being deferred, others are canceled. DL is yet another airline that is getting rid of redundant airplane orders.


I think you nailed it. We just have been through a cycle of consolidation, replacement orders for older aircraft, emerging market carrier growth, high into low fuel prices, rock bottom interest rates, you name it. It cannot continue forever.

Better to trim the orders, not take on a partially redundant type, and even fly older planes longer. Or else it is going to be Chapter 11 deja vu all over again.
 
B752OS
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Re: Delta confirm they are not taking the 787

Wed Dec 28, 2016 6:57 pm

Geez, people are making it seem like Boeing with their 787-8/9/10 and 777X cannot compete with Airbus and their 350 and 333Neo.
 
EddieDude
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Re: Delta confirm they are not taking the 787

Wed Dec 28, 2016 7:34 pm

Stitch wrote:
Delta can probably get a very strong deal on the A330-800 to fill that role.

I am very interested in what DL will do in order to replace the planes it now flies to, say, South America and to the thinner European destinations once it is time to get rid of the very last 763ERs.

While a few A321NEOs might do the trick for very specific thin routes, it seems to me that the 763ERs would leave be a big void in the fleet.

The A338NEO might be a good option if Airbus does not drop the program. I wonder if Airbus is just waiting for DL and perhaps other carriers to make determinations as to the replacement of 763ERs and older A332s before deciding to go ahead with the -800NEO or focusing solely on the bigger -900NEO.
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Stitch
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Re: Delta confirm they are not taking the 787

Wed Dec 28, 2016 7:36 pm

EddieDude wrote:
Stitch wrote:
Delta can probably get a very strong deal on the A330-800 to fill that role.

The A338NEO might be a good option if Airbus does not drop the program. I wonder if Airbus is just waiting for DL and perhaps other carriers to make determinations as to the replacement of 763ERs and older A332s before deciding to go ahead with the -800NEO or focusing solely on the bigger -900NEO.


I see no reason why Airbus will not go forward with the A330-800, regardless of how many or how few orders it has, due to the massive commonality it has with the A330-900. And since the platform is already fully mature, they don't have the resource and production allocation issues they did with the A350-800 that encouraged Airbus to drop that model in favor of focusing all of their attention on developing and delivering the A350-900.
 
MSPNWA
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Re: Delta confirm they are not taking the 787

Wed Dec 28, 2016 7:50 pm

flybynight wrote:
True. But it fairness, so is the A350.

Not only would I not say it's an ideal replacement, I wouldn't call it a replacement at all. The A350 is much, much larger. It would more correct to say a 772 is a 767 replacement than an A350 on a capacity basis.

And second, air carriers have clearly spoken. Almost every significant 767 operator has ordered the 787, and often on a semi-proportional basis to the size of its 767 fleet. The notable outlier that hasn't ordered the 787? Delta, also the largest 767 operator. As well, the A350 order book has few 767 operators in it, and nearly all of them have ordered the 787 as well. The lone exception I could find? Once again, Delta.
 
EddieDude
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Re: Delta confirm they are not taking the 787

Wed Dec 28, 2016 7:56 pm

Stitch wrote:
I see no reason why Airbus will not go forward with the A330-800, regardless of how many or how few orders it has, due to the massive commonality it has with the A330-900. And since the platform is already fully mature, they don't have the resource and production allocation issues they did with the A350-800 that encouraged Airbus to drop that model in favor of focusing all of their attention on developing and delivering the A350-900.

Good points Stitch. Thanks.
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Joost
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Re: Delta confirm they are not taking the 787

Wed Dec 28, 2016 7:59 pm

Stitch wrote:
I fully expect the A350-900HGW will replace the 777-200LR


Already the current production A350-900 can replace the 77L on practically all routes, with significant savings on the fuel bill. SQs A350-900 SIN-SFO is even 6 nm longer than DLs longest 777-200LR route, ATL-JNB.

I wouldn't be surprised to see the 359s on the current 77L routes once the have some 8 frames, simply because the fuel savings can't be ignored.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Delta confirm they are not taking the 787

Wed Dec 28, 2016 8:01 pm

B752OS wrote:
Geez, people are making it seem like Boeing with their 787-8/9/10 and 777X cannot compete with Airbus and their 350 and 333Neo.


I'm not sure what kind of reaction you expect to such a statement. Boeing's 789/77L bid did lose to A339/A359 so there was a competition at DL and Boeing lost it. That doesn't mean Boeing will lose every competition, but I think we won't see any new Boeing widebodies at DL for a long time.

EddieDude wrote:
I am very interested in what DL will do in order to replace the planes it now flies to, say, South America and to the thinner European destinations once it is time to get rid of the very last 763ERs.


I'd love to see the Boeing MOM emerge, but I really doubt it will happen. There's just too much cost and risk involved.
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enzo011
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Re: Delta confirm they are not taking the 787

Wed Dec 28, 2016 8:03 pm

flybynight wrote:
LY777 wrote:
Too bad...
The 787 would have been an ideal 767 replacement.


True. But it fairness, so is the A350.



Surely the ideal 767 replacement is the aircraft that forced Boeing into their 767 replacement, the A330. :D


B752OS wrote:
Geez, people are making it seem like Boeing with their 787-8/9/10 and 777X cannot compete with Airbus and their 350 and 333Neo.



Well for this order it seems like Boeing couldn't compete with the A330/A350. :duck: :box:
 
Planesmart
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Re: Delta confirm they are not taking the 787

Wed Dec 28, 2016 8:06 pm

BravoOne wrote:
11725Flyer wrote:
BravoOne wrote:
I'm shocked:) DL and Boeing are not on good terms these days. I suspect there will be more surprises during 2017. Boeing acknowledges that Airbus builds a damn good product, and this only confirms the poor leadership at Boeing over the last ten+ years. The really bad news is that it continues to this very day.


Total nonsense. Care to let us know what surprises you foresee in 2017?



Totally clueless. There are so may areas at Boeing that remain almost dysfunctional.


They won't be surprises to Boeing in 2017. Boeing is undertaking serious spring cleaning, placing customers on notice with orders at concession prices, that orders cannot be deferred, or for example 60% off a 788 cannot be transferred to 60% off the 737 or 777 family, and vice versa.

The Boeing initiative has encouraged Airbus to start the process, initially with A380 orders.

Airlines need healthy aircraft and engine OEM's. This is part of a cycle to ensure good health.
 
PlanesNTrains
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Re: Delta confirm they are not taking the 787

Wed Dec 28, 2016 8:07 pm

1. Ordered by a different airline in a different time.
2. Better options now available in the 787-9/A330neo/A359.
3. Boeing lacked availability and price elasticity; Airbus had the product and the price at the right time.
4. Boeing had zero to gain by trying to force Delta's hand.
5. The deposits likely went to a past (or slightly possibly) future 737 order.
6. The A330neo/A350 are a stunning duo.
7. A vs B arguments brought in are mind-numbingly stupid and unnecessary, but the usual players gotta play I guess.
8. What the Hell does this have to do with Trump? lol
-Dave


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deltadawg
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Re: Delta confirm they are not taking the 787

Wed Dec 28, 2016 9:29 pm

Not too surprising but nonetheless disappointing. I would have loved to have seen some 787's in ATL and the DL livery. The DL livery sure would have looked great on a 788 or an eventual 789. I held out hopes that the 787's were almost a 1 for 1 match to the many 767's but the writing was on the wall when DL placed the order for the A330's for sure. Just goes to show you that nothing is impossible - 10-15 years ago many on this site said DL was a Boeing only airline and that Airbus never had a chance with DL! How times have changed. Still, I hope to see a 788 or 789 one day in DL livery! One can hope!
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mpdpilot
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Re: Delta confirm they are not taking the 787

Wed Dec 28, 2016 11:25 pm

Revelation wrote:
B752OS wrote:
Geez, people are making it seem like Boeing with their 787-8/9/10 and 777X cannot compete with Airbus and their 350 and 333Neo.


I'm not sure what kind of reaction you expect to such a statement. Boeing's 789/77L bid did lose to A339/A359 so there was a competition at DL and Boeing lost it. That doesn't mean Boeing will lose every competition, but I think we won't see any new Boeing widebodies at DL for a long time.


I tend to agree. Though I think the best option would have been 789/A359.

While this cancellation makes sense based on DL's past actions/orders, it feels like DL is missing the boat the same way they missed the boat with the 777. UA and AA have huge 777 fleets that allowed them to fly virtually any route they desire with the right size aircraft, DL only had 8 aircraft and was limited to a few token routes (though they didn't really use them on those either mostly just to NRT and back). Not until DL orders the 77L do they start to gain the flexibility to add those long distance routes (SYD, JNB), and they use the 767 to fly routes to Europe/Africa that nobody else could make work. Now the shift to the Pacific and again DL lacks the aircraft for the job (operating an A332 on SEA-HKG is like CO using 757s there is a limit to how far into the region you can fly them, CO's EU growth was mostly within 757 range of EWR, DL's EU growth was as far inland as ATH and IST). The 788(United's 789s are also closer in capacity to A332s than A333s) is the 767 of the Pacific and United is showing us that and once again Delta as 11 A332s to United's 30+5 788/9 (DLs growth is limited to NE Asia and UA's growth extends as far as SIN). Sure DL could start some of these routes with the A359 just as CO could have with 767s and 777s, but in the same way that a 777 is a little overkill for EWR-KBP, an A359 is probably a bit much for SEA-HKG)

I do applaud DLs ability to be conservative with their CAPEX, however, being conservative should be balanced with not falling behind. In 10 years I think we could see DL falling behind again.

Or perhaps with traffic growth, the A359 will serve to be the perfect size and the 788 will become the A318/736 of the skys.
One mile of highway gets you one mile, one mile of runway gets you anywhere.
 
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Erebus
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Re: Delta confirm they are not taking the 787

Wed Dec 28, 2016 11:50 pm

Does anyone know if Delta expressed any profound interest in Boeing's MoM concepts?
 
DFW789ER
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Re: Delta confirm they are not taking the 787

Wed Dec 28, 2016 11:58 pm

CX747 wrote:
Hit to the 787 program. Can't say we didn't see this one coming. Does this cancellation in any way open up production slots that can help Boeing in current sales campaigns?


I'd hardly call it a hit to the program. Few ever expected DL to take these frames. The -10 will start coming off the lines soon. The 787 programs seems quite healthy.
 
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11725Flyer
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Re: Delta confirm they are not taking the 787

Thu Dec 29, 2016 12:02 am

deltadawg wrote:
Not too surprising but nonetheless disappointing. I would have loved to have seen some 787's in ATL and the DL livery. The DL livery sure would have looked great on a 788 or an eventual 789. I held out hopes that the 787's were almost a 1 for 1 match to the many 767's but the writing was on the wall when DL placed the order for the A330's for sure. Just goes to show you that nothing is impossible - 10-15 years ago many on this site said DL was a Boeing only airline and that Airbus never had a chance with DL! How times have changed. Still, I hope to see a 788 or 789 one day in DL livery! One can hope!


Totally agree. I doubt it...but DL is opportunistic and perhaps they may take the same approach they've made with their 717 fleet when second-hand 787 frames become available.
 
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jetblastdubai
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Re: Delta confirm they are not taking the 787

Thu Dec 29, 2016 12:34 am

KarelXWB wrote:
Let's face it, the airline industry is cutting capacity. Lots of airplane orders are being deferred, others are canceled. DL is yet another airline that is getting rid of redundant airplane orders.


Could the same be said for UA's recent deferring/downgrading their A350 orders with the possibility of simply cancelling them down the road and simplifying their widebody fleet plan with 77Ws and 787s?
 
PlanesNTrains
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Re: Delta confirm they are not taking the 787

Thu Dec 29, 2016 12:39 am

Stitch wrote:
Richard Anderson claimed that the 787-9 could be secured within the timeframe they desired - Boeing offering 777-200LR's as "interim lift" was either an inaccurate report or Boeing trying to tie the two frames together in their RFP (perhaps to address the smaller capacity of the 787-9 vis-a-vis the A350-900 on some DL core trunk routes).


As always, it'd be nice to be in the boardroom/conference room/etc when these deals are being hashed out. We've heard it a bit differently along the way but for whatever reason it seems like the 77L was at least brought into the discussion. It may very well be that if slots for the 787-9 were available, Boeing might have been trying to plug a capacity hole at the top end relative to the 359. In any event, this RFP took place at a much different time for the airline (DL), the builders (A and B), and the industry. Things change - the 787 was no longer fitting the bill. Personally, I would tend to lean towards the usual suspects of availability, pricing, best matching the needs of the airline (DL), and flexibility in them choosing the 330/350 combo. 77L or no 77L. :-)
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
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MrHMSH
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Re: Delta confirm they are not taking the 787

Thu Dec 29, 2016 12:41 am

jetblastdubai wrote:
KarelXWB wrote:
Let's face it, the airline industry is cutting capacity. Lots of airplane orders are being deferred, others are canceled. DL is yet another airline that is getting rid of redundant airplane orders.


Could the same be said for UA's recent deferring/downgrading their A350 orders with the possibility of simply cancelling them down the road and simplifying their widebody fleet plan with 77Ws and 787s?


Nothing official on that front yet, only a possibility.
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: Delta confirm they are not taking the 787

Thu Dec 29, 2016 12:43 am

Joost wrote:
Stitch wrote:
I fully expect the A350-900HGW will replace the 777-200LR

Already the current production A350-900 can replace the 77L on practically all routes, with significant savings on the fuel bill. SQs A350-900 SIN-SFO is even 6 nm longer than DLs longest 777-200LR route, ATL-JNB.

JNB's issue is altitude as much as range... the 77L offered longer range than any A350 in service or planned, and yet even it had to have modifications in order to permit the westbound departure on JNB-ATL, with a profit-potential payload.


mpdpilot wrote:
it feels like DL is missing the boat the same way they missed the boat with the 777. UA and AA have huge 777 fleets that allowed them to fly virtually any route they desire with the right size aircraft, DL only had 8 aircraft and was limited to a few token routes (though they didn't really use them on those either mostly just to NRT and back).

That's not an accurate portrayal of the situation as it stood. DL's primary issue in its early 777 days was failing to reach a pilot agreement that would see the aircraft operate beyond 8hr flights. As soon as they did, they were not only flying routes like NRT, but also 15hr+ JFK-BOM segments with their 77Es.


mpdpilot wrote:
Not until DL orders the 77L do they start to gain the flexibility to add those long distance routes (SYD, JNB)

JNB yes, but their 77Es can and have operated to SYD with no problem.


mpdpilot wrote:
operating an A332 on SEA-HKG is like CO using 757s there is a limit to how far into the region you can fly them

....there's a limit to how far you can fly ANY aircraft into the region.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
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N717TW
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Re: Delta confirm they are not taking the 787

Thu Dec 29, 2016 1:00 am

mpdpilot wrote:
KarelXWB wrote:
Let's face it, the airline industry is cutting capacity. Lots of airplane orders are being deferred, others are canceled. DL is yet another airline that is getting rid of redundant airplane orders.


That's an interesting thought. I had the same thought about cutting capacity, which i would have thought Delta would have loved the smaller yet capable 787. There are a few transpacific routes that Delta could reduce capacity by flying the 787-8 on instead of the forthcoming A350s.

Interesting times ahead indeed.


They are cutting capacity just by going to the A350 from 747. Moving DTW-NRT/ICN/PVG, all of which have been on the 747 in the past few years, to a 350 will reduce over 200 seats each way across the pacific.
 
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N717TW
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Re: Delta confirm they are not taking the 787

Thu Dec 29, 2016 1:12 am

seahawk wrote:
N717TW wrote:
seahawk wrote:
It is about finances. The 787 only makes sense if additional frames can be bought at a competitive price. They failed to reach an agreement when it comes to this. I am surprised though that they cancelled the order and did not announce a Boeing order of a different type (737MAX) to go with it.


Unless it already happened, as in it was already agreed to as part of the last 737 order. Or conversely a 737 order is its in the works or an early announcement. A Dec. 27th cancellation says "accounting" and "end of year" to me. The annual order book tally appears to be very important to Boeing and not just in the AvGeek/A.net way but in the way the financial press and banking analysts talk. Given that it wasn't a great year for Boeing, why not take the hit now and be done with it? If there is another 20-odd 737s in the pipeline then its in Boeing's interest to hold it for 2017, right?
Or, from the pipe-dream department, maybe DL is converting the orders to 737 Max 10s!


I personally think both would have to inform their shareholders instantly about such decisions. So if the 787s would have been converted to 737, we should know by now. As the news release clearly says "cancels" I do not think they have been converted. Especially considering the explicit mentioning of the unchanged nature of existing 737 contracts.


They can cancel the order but transfer the deposits and other credits towards other aircraft. To see how that can carry over decades look at TWA and the 330...ordered under Carl Icahn in 1989, canceled in 1993 (or '95 depending on how you want to treat the word cancel) and then converted to 318/319s in 1999...then sold to Frontier by AAL.
 
jumbojet
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Re: Delta confirm they are not taking the 787

Thu Dec 29, 2016 1:19 am

flybynight wrote:
LY777 wrote:
Too bad...
The 787 would have been an ideal 767 replacement.


True. But it fairness, so is the A350.


heck no. Any variant of the A350 is way to much capacity as a 767 replacement.

In fact, all versions of the A330 are also way bigger than the 767.

With TATL capacity over saturated, what will DL ultimately get as a true 767 replacement?

The B787-800 is the closest capacity wise, yet they cancelled the order for them. I don't get it.
 
ehaase
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Re: Delta confirm they are not taking the 787

Thu Dec 29, 2016 1:30 am

EddieDude wrote:
Stitch wrote:
Delta can probably get a very strong deal on the A330-800 to fill that role.

I am very interested in what DL will do in order to replace the planes it now flies to, say, South America and to the thinner European destinations once it is time to get rid of the very last 763ERs.

While a few A321NEOs might do the trick for very specific thin routes, it seems to me that the 763ERs would leave be a big void in the fleet.


Some of those thinner European routes using 767's could be replaced by passengers having to change planes in Paris or Amsterdam.
 
Delta777Jet
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Re: Delta confirm they are not taking the 787

Thu Dec 29, 2016 1:42 am

Delta will only take them when they are at least 25 years old and phased out by many other airlines a la DC-9 ! :)
I still miss Trans World Airlines and the L-1011
 
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compensateme
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Re: Delta confirm they are not taking the 787

Thu Dec 29, 2016 1:53 am

I'm amazed at many of the responses. NW, not DL, ordered the 787; it was clear two years ago when DL ordered the 330/350 that it was headed in another direction.

Nor do I understand the A vs B nonsense -- A makes fine aircraft and for most passengers, the 330/350 will be more comfortable (I've flown the 787 and 359 with QR and the wider seats on the latter we're noticeable) for most passengers.

The same people whining about DL not ordering B are the same ones bragging about their VW, Toyota, etc. Gotta love hyprocity.
We don’t care what your next flight is.
 
grbauc
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Re: Delta confirm they are not taking the 787

Thu Dec 29, 2016 2:22 am

RalXWB wrote:
After reading "Buy American" "They will convert the 787 into 737Max10 (hahaha)", I really regret having opened this thread or do I have to wait for "Bring those jobs back!". Anyway my laugh for today :banghead:


Its OK relax people are going to have different views its the internet a place to post thoughts. I see nothing wrong with buying stuff from made one's said Country. I just realize that if I want to sell to others country's My county needs to buy from them also. I'm fine with that. Competition is necessary without it I find my home county doesn't just give/produce the best product. In today's world if a business in the US makes a good product I support it, If its crap I don't.

To get th is on back on topick this tread is about Delta airlines not taking merger partners NW's 787 order. I am pretty sure most people are reading to much in to this cancellation. The days of the high fuel, are a bit of a distant memory and market conditions are different. The used market is very different and will be with the large over ordering (rush to get the newest fuel efficient aircraft) that accrued. Delta has shown themselves to be shrewd when buying aircraft, there should be no surprise that a order from a merger partner in very different times that was pushed out and delayed and now in a very different market place then when ordered is cancelled.
 
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MrHMSH
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Re: Delta confirm they are not taking the 787

Thu Dec 29, 2016 2:44 am

LAX772LR wrote:
JNB's issue is altitude as much as range... the 77L offered longer range than any A350 in service or planned, and yet even it had to have modifications in order to permit the westbound departure on JNB-ATL, with a profit-potential payload.


I thought the A350 had very good takeoff performance?
 
juliuswong
Posts: 2021
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Re: Delta confirm they are not taking the 787

Thu Dec 29, 2016 3:49 am

grbauc wrote:
RalXWB wrote:
After reading "Buy American" "They will convert the 787 into 737Max10 (hahaha)", I really regret having opened this thread or do I have to wait for "Bring those jobs back!". Anyway my laugh for today :banghead:


To get th is on back on topick this tread is about Delta airlines not taking merger partners NW's 787 order. I am pretty sure most people are reading to much in to this cancellation. The days of the high fuel, are a bit of a distant memory and market conditions are different. The used market is very different and will be with the large over ordering (rush to get the newest fuel efficient aircraft) that accrued. Delta has shown themselves to be shrewd when buying aircraft, there should be no surprise that a order from a merger partner in very different times that was pushed out and delayed and now in a very different market place then when ordered is cancelled.

Ding ding ding! You've nailed it! I can't never ever understand why some A.netters put themselves into so much hysteria/ stress/emo/anger after seeing an airline buy/cancel/defer/sell A or B or Embraer or Bombardier aircraft when so-called "better alternative is available". The same trend is going on on Iran's Airbus and Boeing order threads and Airbus cutting A380 production thread. Look humans, the accountants did their number, the CEO and management got their "purchase gift", the geo-social-political and market dynamic come into play. You just can't win all orders everyday in every single RFP! Whatever happens ten years ago, might be very different in today's business climate. Some individuals need to move on with time....please. Thank you.
- Life is a journey, travel it well -
 
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wolfsburg
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Re: Delta confirm they are not taking the 787

Thu Dec 29, 2016 3:50 am

I believe most coach class passenger will be glad to fly on A339 than the 787... The combo of A350 and A339 should be very efficient for Delta, A339 can easily cover most transatlantic route while the A350 is good the the pacific... In coach class the 10 abreast 777 and 9 on 787 are definitely not as comfortable as those on Airbus...
 
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antoniemey
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Re: Delta confirm they are not taking the 787

Thu Dec 29, 2016 3:58 am

wolfsburg wrote:
In coach class the 10 abreast 777 and 9 on 787 are definitely not as comfortable as those on Airbus...


Keeping in mind that the airline has chosen that configuration.
Make something Idiot-proof, and the Universe will make a more inept idiot.
 
Gasman
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Re: Delta confirm they are not taking the 787

Thu Dec 29, 2016 4:16 am

antoniemey wrote:
wolfsburg wrote:
In coach class the 10 abreast 777 and 9 on 787 are definitely not as comfortable as those on Airbus...


Keeping in mind that the airline has chosen that configuration.

Well - yes - except it seems to be that Boeing are making it way too easy these days to cram passengers into their aircraft, and for some reason, Airbus don't seem to be doing the same.

The A330, in 2-4-2 is a pax friendly config. So is the A380 in 3-4-3 in Y, and I've yet to hear any complaints about the A350 although I've not flown it. The 787 (in 9 abreast) and the 777 (in 10 abreast) however are both abhorrent, and I will not fly either unless there really is no other option.

So I see this decision as something of a win for Delta passengers
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: Delta confirm they are not taking the 787

Thu Dec 29, 2016 4:40 am

MrHMSH wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
JNB's issue is altitude as much as range... the 77L offered longer range than any A350 in service or planned, and yet even it had to have modifications in order to permit the westbound departure on JNB-ATL, with a profit-potential payload.

I thought the A350 had very good takeoff performance?

It does. Whether it can takeoff from that altitude, then do a 16hr flight however, is another story.

We (as the public) will have to wait until we get more data, in order to know.
Or until an airline that runs a route like that, places it thereupon.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: Delta confirm they are not taking the 787

Thu Dec 29, 2016 4:53 am

Gasman wrote:
it seems to be that Boeing are making it way too easy these days to cram passengers into their aircraft

Indeed, how dare they do what their *actual* customers (i.e. the airlines) want? The nerve!



Gasman wrote:
Airbus don't seem to be doing the same.

....then you haven't been paying attention:
https://www.runwaygirlnetwork.com/2015/ ... mfortable/

TX has already gone 10abreast on their A350s.
You'd be living in denial if you believe other carriers won't eventually follow.

I won't be shocked to see the A380 go 11abreast either, especially when it dawns on EK that they probably won't get a NEO unless they outright pay for it themselves.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
ytz
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Joined: Thu Jun 25, 2009 12:31 am

Re: Delta confirm they are not taking the 787

Thu Dec 29, 2016 6:01 am

Happy to see this.

From a pax perspective this means that DL will have one of the most comfortable fleets out there. Especially once you add in the CSeries for short haul.
 
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aerolimani
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Re: Delta confirm they are not taking the 787

Thu Dec 29, 2016 7:51 am

ytz wrote:
Happy to see this.

From a pax perspective this means that DL will have one of the most comfortable fleets out there. Especially once you add in the CSeries for short haul.

:checkmark: Agreed. However, the interesting thing will be whether people notice, and care.
 
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KarelXWB
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Re: Delta confirm they are not taking the 787

Thu Dec 29, 2016 8:53 am

LAX772LR wrote:
TX has already gone 10abreast on their A350s.
You'd be living in denial if you believe other carriers won't eventually follow.


I do not expect 10-abreast A350s to become popular though. It has about the same seat width as 9-abreast A330s and lots of airlines avoided that configuration.
What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.
 
oldannyboy
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Re: Delta confirm they are not taking the 787

Thu Dec 29, 2016 10:01 am

compensateme wrote:
alfa164 wrote:
FriscoHeavy wrote:
Very Disappointing. All Flavors of the 787 would have served DL well in some capacity.

:checkmark: Agreed. The 787 has been a game-changer for both AA and UA, allowing them to forge entries into markets that seemed improbable - if not impossible - without that aircraft. It looks like DL could soon be relegated #3 in the Trans-Pacific market.


What routes did the 787 yield that were a "game changer" for AA/UA that the 359 couldn't replicate for DL??



Agree. I also totally fail to see how the 787 has been a game-changer for either AA or UA, or for that matter why the A350 would not replicate a similar success for other airlines.. If anything the A350 is more comfortable, at least for Y pax.
Last edited by oldannyboy on Thu Dec 29, 2016 10:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
PlanesNTrains
Posts: 9524
Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2005 4:19 pm

Re: Delta confirm they are not taking the 787

Thu Dec 29, 2016 10:04 am

oldannyboy wrote:
compensateme wrote:
alfa164 wrote:
:checkmark: Agreed. The 787 has been a game-changer for both AA and UA, allowing them to forge entries into markets that seemed improbable - if not impossible - without that aircraft. It looks like DL could soon be relegated #3 in the Trans-Pacific market.


What routes did the 787 yield that were a "game changer" for AA/UA that the 359 couldn't replicate for DL??



Agree. I also totally fail to see how the 787 has been a game-changer for either AA or UA, or for that matter that the A350 could not replicate for other airlines..



It's possible to be a "game changer" without every airline needing the "game changer" and with other newer aircraft matching or eclipsing the "game changer".

Beyond that, it's all hyperbole.
Last edited by PlanesNTrains on Thu Dec 29, 2016 10:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: Delta confirm they are not taking the 787

Thu Dec 29, 2016 10:04 am

aerolimani wrote:
Agreed. However, the interesting thing will be whether people notice, and care.

We already know the answer to that, as history has consistently shown us over and over again: "No."


KarelXWB wrote:
It has about the same seat width as 9-abreast A330s and lots of airlines avoided that configuration.

It does for now, but as Airbus themselves have mentioned, they're playing with certain configurations to increase the width.

If they can pull off a similar combo of sidewall/armrest reduction, as Boeing did with the 777... then they'll have a 17"+ seat.
I wouldn't be surprised to see carriers gravitate to 10abreast, if so.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil

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