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ASA
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Re: BER opening postponed for the 4th time

Fri Dec 30, 2016 7:40 am

At this point ... reopening Templehoff appears more likely in our lifetime! :D
 
sandyb123
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Re: BER opening postponed for the 4th time

Fri Dec 30, 2016 8:46 am

seahawk wrote:
Would they have contracted Fraport, Munich airport, Hochtief or Bilfinger Berger to built them an airport to open at set date and to cost not more than sum X, it would have happened.


Unfortunately these organisations are not immune to this type of incompetence either. Here in Edinburgh Bilfinger had the contract to build a new tramline through the city which was marred in politics and infrastructure issues.

Bilfinger actually walked of the job because the city administration (mostly councillor Leslie Hinds who is nice but inept) behaved so badly.

In the end the project finished 2 years late and about 30% of the route was cancelled due to spiralling costs, relationship and infrastructure problems.

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seahawk
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Re: BER opening postponed for the 4th time

Fri Dec 30, 2016 8:55 am

See, again the political influence. Politics need to stay out of it, once construction starts, but they usually want influence and want changes at short notice. They also want to lie to the public. I have yet to see one politician, who wants to make a project happen, present the realistic or worst case cost estimate, they always go for best case. Later when the shtf, the constructor is to blame when the worst case numbers turn out to be correct.
 
raylee67
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Re: BER opening postponed for the 4th time

Fri Dec 30, 2016 9:42 am

I would think they should already have realized that it's cheaper and faster to tear down the "old" BER and rebuild a new one with a new design.
319/20/21 332/33 342/43/45 359/51 388 707 717 732/36/3G/38/39 74R/42/43/44/4E/48 757 762/63 772/7L/73/7W 788/89 D10 M80 135/40/45 175/90 DH1/4 CRJ/R7 L10
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L410Turbolet
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Re: BER opening postponed

Fri Dec 30, 2016 11:33 am

AngMoh wrote:
The fact is the Germans could not do it. The Chinese build airports to their regulations. They might not be built to German regulations, but they at least do not wilfully ignore local regulations and plan to hire 1000's of students to sit next to doors in case a fire breaks out.

Totalitarian society works under different principles. Just as they hire 1000 students, they can raze down 1000 buildings without any questions asked (cue Olympics). They don't have to worry about work safety or environmental regulations (just dump it on the other side od the fence).

AngMoh wrote:
I am pretty sure the Chinese would have been able to build an airport to German regulations: they would just have chosen a much simpler design which meets these requirements...

They could not even built a highway through potato lowlands in Poland.
 
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Re:

Fri Dec 30, 2016 3:52 pm

ahj2000 wrote:
Ugh....AB must be feeling the pain


It seems clear that AB is the big loser in all of this. Can you imagine how different AB's fate would be if the new airport was built more or less to schedule?
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S75752
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Re: BER opening postponed for the 4th time

Fri Dec 30, 2016 4:56 pm

I know I've said it many times, but again: corruption probe on where all the money disappeared to?
 
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flyingturtle
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Re: BER opening postponed for the 4th time

Tue Jan 17, 2017 4:52 pm

Some news... this thread said that an opening in 2017 is impossible.

In January 2017, several officials mentioned that a (partial) opening in 2017 is possible.

Now, this article http://www.tagesspiegel.de/berlin/neue- ... 62494.html says that an opening in 2017 is indeed impossible. Problems are:
- the electronic control system, responsible for the correct opening and closing of the doors in the terminal, does not work correctly
- new problems with the sprinkler system have been discovered.

Both need to be rectified before the infamous smoke exhaust system can be declared operable.


David
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LTU932
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Re: BER opening postponed for the 4th time

Tue Jan 17, 2017 5:23 pm

The ZDF confirmed that information, so the possible delay seems to be legit. The first thing they should do IMO is get rid of the name "Willy Brandt" in the official name for BER. Naming the airport "Flughafen Berlin-Brandemburg 'Willy Brandt'" is an insult to the late Chancellor Brandt. Apart from that, BER is a national embarassment and a lesson to everyone on how NOT to plan and construct an airport based on an operating airport or from scratch.

Sorry for the rant.
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bmacleod
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Re: BER opening postponed for the 4th time

Tue Jan 17, 2017 5:37 pm

flyingturtle wrote:
I know it's a lame joke now...

German newspaper DIE ZEIT reports that the planned opening in 2017 is impossible, and now opening is planned for early 2018. For this, no reasons are given in the article.

In Germish: http://www.zeit.de/wirtschaft/2016-12/b ... verschoben


David


That article photo seems to resemble an old 1980 photo of SVO.

Particularity the building on the right.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/80/RIAN_archive_866468_Sheremetevo-2_international_airport.jpg
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Re: BER opening postponed for the 4th time

Tue Jan 17, 2017 9:52 pm

People seem to forget that Berlin was entirely re-built since WWII and huge parts of the centre we re-built since reunification, a feat no US city has ever had to undertake and for the most part it was completed and is hugely successful, so in perspective BER is a small undertaking.

Give Germany some credit for rising from the ashes to one of the world's most successful economies in just 3-4 decades, they've accomplished things few countries have ever managed to do. Getting tired of this armchair BER bashing which quickly degrades to overall Germany bashing.

For those Americans having some fun BER bashing, I've spent years working in Germany and I'll take TXL any day over many decayed and crumbling US facilities such as LGA, most of LAX, SEA and much of MIA.
 
mham001
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Re: BER opening postponed for the 4th time

Tue Jan 17, 2017 10:34 pm

Berlin should not feel so bad, California has two of these type projects right now, the Made in China bridge between SF-OAK and high speed rail.
 
holzmann
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Re: BER opening postponed for the 4th time

Tue Jan 17, 2017 10:43 pm

TXL is the most efficient capital city airport I've used...several times a year commuting to DCA. It just needs to be modernized. Not to say Berlin doesn't need a true international hub as well. The city needs a DCA/IAD construct.
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NichCage
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Re: BER opening postponed for the 4th time

Wed Jan 18, 2017 1:18 am

What a disaster. Berlin has had a poor airport system for so long. Berlin-Tegel is too small and overcrowded, while Berlin-SXF is the main low cost airport that is getting busier.

Having SXF still open will help BER when it opens, but in conclusion BER looks way too small to serve Berlin at the moment when it comes to passengers numbers.
 
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LTU932
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Re: BER opening postponed for the 4th time

Sat Jan 21, 2017 12:31 pm

http://www.heute.de/hauptstadtflughafen ... 73428.html (German only)

It's official: During a party meeting in Erfurt, Berlin mayor Michael Müller has announced that BER will not open in 2017, and he thinks that it'll happen in 2018. Reason for the delay is new fire protection issues, in this case with the doors. He also wants to demand a new opening date from the BER board.

I'll believe the 2018 date once BER makes news when it actually opens.
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PanHAM
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Re: BER opening postponed for the 4th time

Sat Jan 21, 2017 4:28 pm

Mr. Mueller is head pf the supervisory board of Berlin Brandenburg Airports. "He thinks it will happen" in 2018, what a Clown. He should not think about things he does not unerstand, he should Change the Berlin Airports politics, that is what he is in a Position to do, to submit a law to the Berlin state parliament to ove away from the single Airport policy.

If he doesn't to that immediately, he can open the BER terminal (the Airport itself exists already with 2 available runways of which one is kept inop for political reasons) and the SXF terminal))) in 2018 or 2019 or whenever and that will be the lesser proble.
The Major Problem is, that without changing the politics rapidly, Berlin will get a capacity Problem latest by 2030, even if the Keep the old SXF terminal while midfield the BER terminal is active. And there is no way to cure the Problem simply because they blocked the MUC solution (mirroring terminal with second Apron) with service buildings
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WIederling
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Re: BER opening postponed for the 4th time

Sat Jan 21, 2017 5:19 pm

bmacleod wrote:
flyingturtle wrote:
I know it's a lame joke now...

German newspaper DIE ZEIT reports that the planned opening in 2017 is impossible, and now opening is planned for early 2018. For this, no reasons are given in the article.

In Germish: http://www.zeit.de/wirtschaft/2016-12/b ... verschoben


David


That article photo seems to resemble an old 1980 photo of SVO.

Particularity the building on the right.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/80/RIAN_archive_866468_Sheremetevo-2_international_airport.jpg


Looking NNW along the road, the "Gullideckel" from the image in the center as coords:
https://www.google.de/maps/place/52%C2% ... d13.509979

Funny. If this was an image from Schönefeld ....
On the other hand I don't see all that much similarity.
( been to Sheremetevo once ~1974 when it still was an arrangement of single storey buildings. at least what I do remember )

to add:
Sheremetevo-2 was build by German firms taking the Hannover Airport buildings as template. finished 1980. ( Moscow Olympics.)
BER has been designed by Meinhard von Gerkan, having made a name in airport design before.
No idea if BER "bows" to some older designs. wouldn't be suprised if..
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LH707330
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Re: BER opening postponed for the 4th time

Sun Jan 22, 2017 12:14 am

This has really gotten ridiculous....

An old adage that a friend taught me about German building codes: Du darfst die Treppe nicht betreten weil die Stufen nicht normgerecht sind, aber du darfst sie auch nicht umbauen, weil sie unter Denkmalschutz steht!
 
WIederling
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Re: BER opening postponed for the 4th time

Sun Jan 22, 2017 9:11 am

LH707330 wrote:
This has really gotten ridiculous....

An old adage that a friend taught me about German building codes: Du darfst die Treppe nicht betreten weil die Stufen nicht normgerecht sind, aber du darfst sie auch nicht umbauen, weil sie unter Denkmalschutz steht!


Denkmalschutz. Autsch.

That could be the next iteration of the BER saga:
Will be put under change protection as an industrial heritage site "Example of professional mismanagement".
Next step then is to modernize Schönefeld. Reopening Tempelhof would require killing greens in droves.

And they will take "Eintrittsgeld für das Museum BER".
Remember the airship hangar in the general vicinity.
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BobPatterson
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Re: BER opening postponed for the 4th time

Sun Jan 22, 2017 12:03 pm

LH707330 wrote:
This has really gotten ridiculous....

An old adage that a friend taught me about German building codes: Du darfst die Treppe nicht betreten weil die Stufen nicht normgerecht sind, aber du darfst sie auch nicht umbauen, weil sie unter Denkmalschutz steht!


Is this translation from Google adequate?

"You can not enter the stairs because the steps are not standard, but you must not convert them, because they are under protection of the monument!"

It would be a great help to post translation into English beside/after your native tongue.

Thanks
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LTU932
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Re: BER opening postponed for the 4th time

Sun Jan 22, 2017 12:16 pm

He probably couldn't translate it, because the saying is difficult to translate. You could lose the meaning of it in the translation. Literally, it means you cannot enter the stairs because they're not built according to the norm, but you cannot modify them because they're a historical landmark.

In Germany, it is very difficult to make changes to places or buildings deemed historical landmarks because of their special protection status. You have to make sure that the changes do not affect the historic design too much. That being said, I recall from when I was still living in Hamburg, that the city has issued permits to demolish a few buildings deemed historical landmarks.
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tlecam
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Re: BER opening postponed for the 4th time

Sun Jan 22, 2017 1:34 pm

I don't know anything about construction, so I ask forgiveness in advance - but how does an issue with doors take a full year to fix? I get that there are requirements to integrate doors with the fire system and all that, but a year seems like an awfully long time.
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mjoelnir
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Re: BER opening postponed for the 4th time

Sun Jan 22, 2017 1:37 pm

tlecam wrote:
I don't know anything about construction, so I ask forgiveness in advance - but how does an issue with doors take a full year to fix? I get that there are requirements to integrate doors with the fire system and all that, but a year seems like an awfully long time.


I think the only explanation left is, it is BER.
 
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Re: BER opening postponed for the 4th time

Sun Jan 22, 2017 5:52 pm

Since BER is a public construction work, chances are the delays will be related to the notorious German bureaucracy. There's also the issue of hiring wrong people like Hartmut Mehdorn, having the mayor of Berlin and the prime minister of Brandenburg on the board and/or as boss of the airport's parent company, as well as contracted companies not doing their job and/or going under. Anyone remember the Imtech bankruptcy??
Sometimes the only thing more dangerous than a question is an answer. - Ferengi Rule of Acquisition 208
 
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flyingturtle
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Re: BER opening postponed for the 4th time

Sun Jan 22, 2017 7:29 pm

LTU932 wrote:
Anyone remember the Imtech bankruptcy??


God spoke that no company involved in BER's construction could ever go bankrupt, because you could bill thousands of fictitious man-hours.

But God was wrong, a "Pooof!" was heard, and nobody believed in God anymore.


David
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andrej
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Berlin Brandenburg delayed - again

Mon Jan 23, 2017 5:11 pm

OK..this soap opera will never end. ATW reports that due to some 'technical glitches' with the control systems in the terminal doors, BER officials must postpone opening to 2018. Some 1,200 doors must be checked for proper installation fire protection system.

I want to say that hopefully this is the last delay, but given the track record I am quite skeptical. At this point, it would be cheaper to construct a new airport. :D :P BER fiasco represents everything how I don't perceive German efficiency.

http://atwonline.com/airports-routes/be ... ayed-again
 
airfrnt
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Re: BER opening postponed for the 4th time

Mon Jan 23, 2017 6:33 pm

ACCS300 wrote:
People seem to forget that Berlin was entirely re-built since WWII and huge parts of the centre we re-built since reunification, a feat no US city has ever had to undertake and for the most part it was completed and is hugely successful, so in perspective BER is a small undertaking.

Give Germany some credit for rising from the ashes to one of the world's most successful economies in just 3-4 decades, they've accomplished things few countries have ever managed to do. Getting tired of this armchair BER bashing which quickly degrades to overall Germany bashing.

For those Americans having some fun BER bashing, I've spent years working in Germany and I'll take TXL any day over many decayed and crumbling US facilities such as LGA, most of LAX, SEA and much of MIA.


Several American "cities" have been rebuilt - notably Atlanta and San Fransisco. Of course, those were in the 1800s, not 1900s, but still, your point is not factually correct.

I routinely fly through LAX and SEA. (Not MIA much), as well as Frankfurt and Denver. TXL is a atrocious airport, which manages to even make LAX look world class. The most embarrassing thing about TXL is actually the insane detachment from (the otherwise brilliant) mass transit system and the inefficient (and amazing insecure) security checks going into airside. These would be fixable problems if a will to improve that airport exists. It doesn't. TXL has a warm spot for me, simply because I associate it with Berlin, which I love, but it's right up there with UA's gates at NRT and LAX (non-TBIT) as "this is a international airport, really?"

That said, the best and newest airport in the states in Denver, and it went through it's own (1/10th of this) debacle. It was worth it. This will be as well.
 
mjoelnir
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Re: BER opening postponed for the 4th time

Mon Jan 23, 2017 7:21 pm

It seems an absolute joke that TXL and BER have the same architect.
 
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Re: BER opening postponed for the 4th time

Tue Jan 24, 2017 8:43 am

It is a chance for Berlin. Be the "Green Capital" and have no airport.
 
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Re: BER opening postponed for the 4th time

Tue Jan 24, 2017 8:58 am

BER is going the be the first airport with monument status (in Holland a building needs to be 100 years old to gain this status) at the opening :-)
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PanHAM
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Re: BER opening postponed for the 4th time

Tue Jan 24, 2017 9:21 am

We talk about the terminal they call BER and cannot get ready, while the other terminal on that Location, the old DDR window to the world for a few is bursting, like TXL all seams. Another joke in that never ending saga is, that the southern runway, which is in the pckage of remodelling SXF into BER is ready and could be used any time. But it cannot go online (except a couple of months when the old northern runway was upraded) until the BER terminl is opened.

Only in Berlin

But once the terinal is open and the old SXF facilities serve as a stop gap, the two will be insufficient to handle all the Berlin traffic, simply because TXL HAS to be closed. Regardless what the real world Needs, the alterbate planet called Berlin is unable to take the right Actions to heal the Problem. The new terminal will prove to be a bottle neck since all passengers must go through an area, inbound and outbound, whoch does not have enough space to accommodate the needed security checks or baggage carousels, Regardless how many midfield terminals will be build, .

They simply missed the Chance to accommodate a mirroring T2 like they have in MUC simply becaise they narrow indedly did not adapt to the rising Pax numbers whoch could be foreseen in 2000 onwards and are reality today.

Only in Berlin, or should I say Schilda?
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fraspotter
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Re: BER opening postponed for the 4th time

Tue Jan 24, 2017 9:54 am

Is this really just the 4th time? Seems like it's been delayed at least 7 or 8 times by now.
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mjoelnir
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Re: BER opening postponed for the 4th time

Tue Jan 24, 2017 9:59 am

PanHAM wrote:
We talk about the terminal they call BER and cannot get ready, while the other terminal on that Location, the old DDR window to the world for a few is bursting, like TXL all seams. Another joke in that never ending saga is, that the southern runway, which is in the pckage of remodelling SXF into BER is ready and could be used any time. But it cannot go online (except a couple of months when the old northern runway was upraded) until the BER terminl is opened.

Only in Berlin

But once the terinal is open and the old SXF facilities serve as a stop gap, the two will be insufficient to handle all the Berlin traffic, simply because TXL HAS to be closed. Regardless what the real world Needs, the alterbate planet called Berlin is unable to take the right Actions to heal the Problem. The new terminal will prove to be a bottle neck since all passengers must go through an area, inbound and outbound, whoch does not have enough space to accommodate the needed security checks or baggage carousels, Regardless how many midfield terminals will be build, .

They simply missed the Chance to accommodate a mirroring T2 like they have in MUC simply becaise they narrow indedly did not adapt to the rising Pax numbers whoch could be foreseen in 2000 onwards and are reality today.

Only in Berlin, or should I say Schilda?


If a terminal would be build to the west of the current BER terminal, enough space there for a terminal nearly the same size, it of course would have to be build with security checks, baggage carousels and check in counters. It would than not mirror the MUC arrangement as the apron would be between them. Connection could be through a tunnel under the apron.
It was promised to close TXL when BER opens and I assume it will be done. But there is not the same condition for the SXF terminal, that was promised to be able to be used for Government purposes, a decision that could be changed.
I do not understand your bottleneck, the BER terminal is bigger than the TXL terminal, so the BER terminal combined with the SXF terminal has a bigger capacity than TXL and SXF together. The BER terminal capacity alone more thant matches TXL and SXF combined capacities.
 
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fraspotter
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Re: BER opening postponed for the 4th time

Tue Jan 24, 2017 10:04 am

Well might as well get started on the satellite terminals as well. Gonna need those for when BER ever opens its going to already be too small.
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Noshow
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Re: BER opening postponed for the 4th time

Tue Jan 24, 2017 10:06 am

The hangars to the west of the BER terminal block any option to build a second "base terminal" there. The current BER terminal is to small inside and has strategic bottlenecks like not enough check in counters and baggage caroussels built in. This is why it does not make sense to connect additional satellite terminals to it. In fact you need to build some new and truly expandable "base terminal" to the west. One day you can use the current BER one for lowcost airlines or similar.
 
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seahawk
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Re: BER opening postponed for the 4th time

Tue Jan 24, 2017 10:33 am

That would mean restarting the whole planing process, which would mean admitting that the original plan was not correct. It would also mean telling the people living in the area to expect much more traffic and it would mean starting another expensive project. neither will be done with the current governments of Berlin and Brandenburg.

This is all that is possible: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flughafen ... enburg.png
 
Noshow
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Re: BER opening postponed for the 4th time

Tue Jan 24, 2017 10:37 am

You can still complete the current wreck of a BER-building but better start planning the "real" one for the future as well. That includes providing space for a third runway.

My personal preference is to demolish the BER building and rebuild it again in perfect condition (as planned). The materials are not as expensive but delaying the opening is.
 
PanHAM
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Re: BER opening postponed for the 4th time

Tue Jan 24, 2017 10:46 am

@mjoelnir - yu mean a satellite termial without direct road nd rail Access and the passnegers reach that terminal through a tunnel and do security clearance and bagge pick up at that satellite? Won't go security wise, even if that tunnel is completely separate. More, you still have all that road traffic. Even if private cars are blocked there would be a melt down daily in Peak hours once the 50 Million mark is exceeded. And the way planning procedures are in Germany they would be in the Hearing stage, far from building anything.

The only way to prevent a melt down in Peak times (and that are the numbers an Airport must take for planning) is to Keep all terminals open, including TXL..

BTW, Ryanair jumped on the campaign to Keep TXL open, I heard they even print that on their Boarding Cards.
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Noshow
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Re: BER opening postponed for the 4th time

Tue Jan 24, 2017 10:57 am

As building and financing BER get's more and more expensive over time I can very well see the city of Berlin selling Tegel Airport one day to generate some income. Guess who might be candidates to buy it? LH or FR!
 
mjoelnir
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Re: BER opening postponed for the 4th time

Tue Jan 24, 2017 11:21 am

PanHAM wrote:
@mjoelnir - yu mean a satellite termial without direct road nd rail Access and the passnegers reach that terminal through a tunnel and do security clearance and bagge pick up at that satellite? Won't go security wise, even if that tunnel is completely separate. More, you still have all that road traffic. Even if private cars are blocked there would be a melt down daily in Peak hours once the 50 Million mark is exceeded. And the way planning procedures are in Germany they would be in the Hearing stage, far from building anything.

The only way to prevent a melt down in Peak times (and that are the numbers an Airport must take for planning) is to Keep all terminals open, including TXL..

BTW, Ryanair jumped on the campaign to Keep TXL open, I heard they even print that on their Boarding Cards.


I mean putting up a terminal independent from the already build one. Road access could be from the west. Enough space.

TXL will not be kept open. People can forget about that.

Capacity wise I can not get the melt down argument. The BER terminal as it is being build now, should be more than double the capacity of the TXL terminal. It is quite a bit bigger than the TXL and SXF terminal together. That is regarding all points, space for passengers, check in, security control and arrival with baggage systems. Opening BER, if done sometime this century, gives more passenger capacity than TXL and SXF together, hardly understandable why that brings the meltdown argument. TXL is running at twice the capacity it was build for as it is and SXF about 30% above capacity, if there is a meltdown, it is happening now. The nominal capacity of BER is 27 million passengers. The critic around space in the terminal is around space for a shopping. The architect for BER, the same that designed the TXL terminal, abhors the concept of an airport being a shopping mall. The planed expansions by the two midfield terminals should bring it up to 40+ million passengers. I would scrap the two midfield expansions and build a second terminal to the west of the current apron, similar size to the current BER terminal with check in desks, security and arrival hall with baggage systems.
 
PanHAM
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Re: BER opening postponed for the 4th time

Tue Jan 24, 2017 11:45 am

OK, that western terminal might take some of the pressure off the new terminal, but it won't have rail Access and building that T would take 20 years including planning, at least. You must not Forget that These days retail space is essential for Airports to recover operating exenses and to ecover Investments. That is essential as our wise politicians say that as of 2024 air infrastructure has to pay for itself. Otherwise an Airport running at a loss would Need to Close. Whoever drafted such a law never heard the term "natioal economy" and the importance of such for infrastructure.
But back to the figures, 40 Million is, based on nly 5% annual growth (last yearit was 11,7%) reached in the year 2022/23.

By that time Mayor Mueller or whoever will have that Job then, does not even know what a midfield terminal is. Even if permission to build is on Hand, the probability that some NIMBY will get a court injunction is extremely high. Here we go with the meltdown, at least in Peak times. Keeping TXL is the only Option that gives Berlin some flexibility.

The single Airport concept for Berlin was rubbish from the beginning. No other capital City in the world with similar importance has only one Airport. Berlin Brandenburg Airports even advertised, in the late 90s/raly 2000s with the Slogan "3 Airports, 6 runways". Such ads appeared on the back cover of OAG.

And then came politics........
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
Noshow
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Re: BER opening postponed for the 4th time

Tue Jan 24, 2017 11:50 am

TXL will not be kept open. People can forget about that.
We should not follow yesterday's bad ideas for no reason.

I don't see Tegel closing anymore. Because it's not possible. There is just to much air traffic for BER alone.
 
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seahawk
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Re: BER opening postponed for the 4th time

Tue Jan 24, 2017 12:03 pm

TXL will close, at least as long SPD, Green Party or "die Linke" are in power. And consider I said "or" because either of this parties will fight to close it, regardless of the effects. It is interesting that the planing for TXL after closure goes more smoothly than BER.

http://www.stadtentwicklung.berlin.de/s ... L_2013.pdf

They are already making the legal groundwork for building rights at TXL.

http://www.schumacher-quartier.de/das-projekt.html
 
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LTU932
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Re: BER opening postponed for the 4th time

Tue Jan 24, 2017 12:29 pm

seahawk wrote:
TXL will close, at least as long SPD, Green Party or "die Linke" are in power. And consider I said "or" because either of this parties will fight to close it, regardless of the effects. It is interesting that the planing for TXL after closure goes more smoothly than BER.

http://www.stadtentwicklung.berlin.de/s ... L_2013.pdf

They are already making the legal groundwork for building rights at TXL.

http://www.schumacher-quartier.de/das-projekt.html
I believe the closing of TXL was part of the deal to build BER in the first place. It takes a lot of political will to repeal this closure, one that Michael Müller and his coalition parters lack.

The argument of building "affordable" homes seems to be one of the additional driving factors for closing TXL. Unfortunately, I put affordable in question marks because whatever is going to be built, cannot be afforded by those who live near minimum wage or those who need welfare to survive. I know from Hamburg, where the situation with affordable homes is even worse.
Sometimes the only thing more dangerous than a question is an answer. - Ferengi Rule of Acquisition 208
 
Noshow
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Re: BER opening postponed for the 4th time

Tue Jan 24, 2017 12:53 pm

I want so see a politican closing Tegel airport while BER is not ready to handle all those passengers. Berlin needs visitors and business. Mind you, even after BER will open one far away day it will be capacity limited for years to come to around 22 million pax per annum.

Real world passenger numbers in Berlin have changed and that can be proven. So any court will be open to modify what capacity and needs were assumed by court rulings yesterday. That will lead to some serious option to not have to close Tegel as had been planned anymore.
 
mjoelnir
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Re: BER opening postponed for the 4th time

Tue Jan 24, 2017 1:24 pm

Noshow wrote:
I want so see a politican closing Tegel airport while BER is not ready to handle all those passengers. Berlin needs visitors and business. Mind you, even after BER will open one far away day it will be capacity limited for years to come to around 22 million pax per annum.

Real world passenger numbers in Berlin have changed and that can be proven. So any court will be open to modify what capacity and needs were assumed by court rulings yesterday. That will lead to some serious option to not have to close Tegel as had been planned anymore.


The design is to handle 27 million pax for the one BER terminal.
 
LondonCity
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Re: BER opening postponed for the 4th time

Tue Jan 24, 2017 1:59 pm

Now Ryanair has joined the campaign to keep Tegel open.


https://www.businesstraveller.com/busin ... -campaign/
 
Noshow
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Re: BER opening postponed for the 4th time

Tue Jan 24, 2017 2:14 pm

27 million pax are not possible from the opening day right away. BER needs to be brought to full speed first before it can handle 27 million p. a. Internal rework will be needed for that. My point: It's too small.

Tegel CAN'T close for pure practical reasons anymore. Traffic has outgrown the available BER infrastructure.
 
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United787
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Re: BER opening postponed for the 4th time

Tue Jan 24, 2017 2:25 pm

bob75013 wrote:
Reminds me a bit of the debacle involved in opening Denver International Airport over a decade ago. DIA was delayed 3 to 4 times (total delay about a year) due to an automated baggage handling system that they never did get to work.


But the DIA delay was due primarily to just one system and if it was only year, it really doesn't compare to this...
 
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United787
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Re: BER opening postponed for the 4th time

Tue Jan 24, 2017 2:32 pm

ACCS300 wrote:
People seem to forget that Berlin was entirely re-built since WWII and huge parts of the centre we re-built since reunification, a feat no US city has ever had to undertake and for the most part it was completed and is hugely successful, so in perspective BER is a small undertaking.

Give Germany some credit for rising from the ashes to one of the world's most successful economies in just 3-4 decades, they've accomplished things few countries have ever managed to do. Getting tired of this armchair BER bashing which quickly degrades to overall Germany bashing.

For those Americans having some fun BER bashing, I've spent years working in Germany and I'll take TXL any day over many decayed and crumbling US facilities such as LGA, most of LAX, SEA and much of MIA.


I think most of the harshest criticism is coming from internal Germans...

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