cedarjet
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LHR-PHX x10 weekly in summer 2017

Thu Dec 29, 2016 1:07 pm

BA are operating an extra LHR-PHX in summer 2017 three days a week to make ten weekly; extra flight is an early departure, 0930ish into PHX 1225, return leaves early afternoon and lands LHR 0830+1. Not sure of the equipment, 777-200ER seems likely but 747 would be nice.

https://www.businesstraveller.com/busin ... x-service/
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Raventech
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Re: LHR-PHX x10 weekly in summer 2017

Thu Dec 29, 2016 1:27 pm

This was talked about in the PHX thread and it is all 747
 
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qf789
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Re: LHR-PHX x10 weekly in summer 2017

Thu Dec 29, 2016 1:47 pm

cedarjet wrote:
BA are operating an extra LHR-PHX in summer 2017 three days a week to make ten weekly; extra flight is an early departure, 0930ish into PHX 1225, return leaves early afternoon and lands LHR 0830+1. Not sure of the equipment, 777-200ER seems likely but 747 would be nice.

<https://www.businesstraveller.com/business-travel/2016/12/29/british-airways-boost-phoenix-service/>


All services to be operated by the 744

BA291 LHR0940 – 1225PHX 744 136
BA289 LHR1440 – 1725PHX 744 D

BA290 PHX1435 – 0830+1LHR 744 136
BA288 PHX1940 – 1335+1LHR 744 D

http://www.routesonline.com/news/38/air ... yjun-2017/
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windian425
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Re: LHR-PHX x10 weekly in summer 2017

Thu Dec 29, 2016 2:42 pm

Surely a daily A380 should cover the PHX route.
 
Osubuckeyes
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Re: LHR-PHX x10 weekly in summer 2017

Thu Dec 29, 2016 3:07 pm

I don't think PHX has any gates that are A380 capable.
 
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FlyCaledonian
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Re: LHR-PHX x10 weekly in summer 2017

Thu Dec 29, 2016 4:11 pm

Interesting addition by BA. Would suggest that the AA/BA joint venture is making PHX work as a connection hub as I don't believe these additional flights would be driven by O&D traffic alone. I wonder if we could see AA add a flight with its own metal within a couple of years, seeing AA and BA each operate daily on the route?
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rbavfan
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Re: LHR-PHX x10 weekly in summer 2017

Thu Dec 29, 2016 4:16 pm

windian425 wrote:
Surely a daily A380 should cover the PHX route.


It could only land & T-O on the north runway. If anything happened to the runway they would be stuck till it was fixed. Sky harbor put in a tram that goes over the only taxiway that the A380 will fit on. They made it's height good enough to fit a 747 but not the A380.
 
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Re: LHR-PHX x10 weekly in summer 2017

Thu Dec 29, 2016 4:17 pm

No, it's not O&D alone. California is a big deal for PHX, and would be for BA's flight... especially now that it is AA. SJC, SNA, ONT, SBA, SBP. LGB, OAK, SMF, FAT. These things add up. PHX is more or less the best way to get to them.
 
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Ytraveller
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Re: LHR-PHX x10 weekly in summer 2017

Thu Dec 29, 2016 4:22 pm

Reminds me of when BA increased LAS-LHR to 10x weekly in March of this year, then to 11x in May. All with the 744.

This must be the first big change to the LHR-PHX flight in a long time.
 
BigGSFO
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Re: LHR-PHX x10 weekly in summer 2017

Thu Dec 29, 2016 5:07 pm

Yikes. A 1435 departure out of PHX in the summer. That bird will take every inch of runway to get off the ground.
 
Vctony
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Re: LHR-PHX x10 weekly in summer 2017

Thu Dec 29, 2016 5:15 pm

Here's the official press release from the airport: https://skyharbor.com/Media/PressReleas ... n-for-2017

Looks like the mayor of Phoenix is trying hard to get an Asian airline to start service.
 
msycajun
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Re: LHR-PHX x10 weekly in summer 2017

Thu Dec 29, 2016 5:46 pm

Seems like the mayor and PHX staff should push for a DUB or BCN flight, since a lot of the pax are connecting in LHR. It would help them expand their international offerings and would save BA the LHR slots.
 
incitatus
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Re: LHR-PHX x10 weekly in summer 2017

Thu Dec 29, 2016 5:52 pm

Funny yesterday I read an article on USA Today implying that American Airlines was about to vanish from PHX.
I do not consume Murdoch products including the Wall Street Journal
 
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atcsundevil
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Re: LHR-PHX x10 weekly in summer 2017

Thu Dec 29, 2016 6:06 pm

Osubuckeyes wrote:
I don't think PHX has any gates that are A380 capable.

I don't believe we do, but the airport is A380 capable on a diversion basis.

rbavfan wrote:
It could only land & T-O on the north runway. If anything happened to the runway they would be stuck till it was fixed. Sky harbor put in a tram that goes over the only taxiway that the A380 will fit on. They made it's height good enough to fit a 747 but not the A380.

Are you sure? I'm 99% sure that they gave it clearance for an A380. At any rate, they could still use taxiways Sierra or Tango, there just couldn't be cross-traffic on the other taxiway.

Flighty wrote:
No, it's not O&D alone. California is a big deal for PHX, and would be for BA's flight... especially now that it is AA. SJC, SNA, ONT, SBA, SBP. LGB, OAK, SMF, FAT. These things add up. PHX is more or less the best way to get to them.

Correct. Phoenix holds its own with O&D on this route, but with a slew of frequencies to SoCal airports, they provide a healthy contribution. This is the second time that BA has added frequency since US/AA has gone oneWorld (last time was an increase from 6x to daily), so it's clear that the connection feed is providing a positive contribution.

msycajun wrote:
Seems like the mayor and PHX staff should push for a DUB or BCN flight, since a lot of the pax are connecting in LHR. It would help them expand their international offerings and would save BA the LHR slots.

I highly doubt there's a market for either of those places. PHX has relatively limited opportunities. In Europe, the only potential options that have a chance of survival would be FRA or CDG. FRA/LH failed in the past, but with an aircraft more efficient than the A343, I think it might have a shot at making it. BCN or DUB just wouldn't have a prayer.
 
airzona11
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Re: LHR-PHX x10 weekly in summer 2017

Thu Dec 29, 2016 6:11 pm

Posted this in another thread, but I am looking forward to a chance to see 2 BA 744s on the ground at the same time thanks to a summer monsoon.

Love seeing this addition in PHX!
 
GBNWB
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Re: LHR-PHX x10 weekly in summer 2017

Thu Dec 29, 2016 7:16 pm

Be interesting to see what assumed temperature they use on a hot day. I presume this will be another mid J flight? (74I)
 
Osubuckeyes
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Re: LHR-PHX x10 weekly in summer 2017

Thu Dec 29, 2016 8:14 pm

atcsundevil wrote:
I highly doubt there's a market for either of those places. PHX has relatively limited opportunities. In Europe, the only potential options that have a chance of survival would be FRA or CDG. FRA/LH failed in the past, but with an aircraft more efficient than the A343, I think it might have a shot at making it. BCN or DUB just wouldn't have a prayer.


I could see PHX with a second Europe connection. I do think the traffic is there if someone were to start it up, but my guess is that PHX will end up with 2x on BA or 1x & 1x AA & BA before anyone else takes a chance. JAL to NRT has always been rumored, it'll happen eventually if they can spare a 787.
 
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Re: LHR-PHX x10 weekly in summer 2017

Thu Dec 29, 2016 8:35 pm

Yes, it will be very hot, but the flight is only about 9 1/2 Hours Eastbound, so the it won't be at MTOW. Getting out of PHX for that duration of flight won't be a big deal.
Whatever
 
RobertPhoenix
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Re: LHR-PHX x10 weekly in summer 2017

Thu Dec 29, 2016 8:55 pm

rbavfan wrote:
windian425 wrote:
Surely a daily A380 should cover the PHX route.


It could only land & T-O on the north runway. If anything happened to the runway they would be stuck till it was fixed. Sky harbor put in a tram that goes over the only taxiway that the A380 will fit on. They made it's height good enough to fit a 747 but not the A380.


I checked when the bridge was being built, and there was 10 feet to spare at that time for A380,

According to Wikipedia "The PHX Sky Train features a 100-foot-tall (30 m) bridge over Taxiway R, one of three which connect the north and south runways. This is the first location in the world where a rail system of any kind crosses over an active taxiway.[4][5] The bridge is tall enough to accommodate a Boeing 747 and an Airbus A380."
 
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Re: LHR-PHX x10 weekly in summer 2017

Thu Dec 29, 2016 9:04 pm

Flighty wrote:
No, it's not O&D alone. California is a big deal for PHX, and would be for BA's flight... especially now that it is AA. SJC, SNA, ONT, SBA, SBP. LGB, OAK, SMF, FAT. These things add up. PHX is more or less the best way to get to them.


The best way unless you go non-stop on BA to SJC and OAK from London.
 
777PHX
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Re: LHR-PHX x10 weekly in summer 2017

Thu Dec 29, 2016 9:13 pm

atcsundevil wrote:
I highly doubt there's a market for either of those places. PHX has relatively limited opportunities. In Europe, the only potential options that have a chance of survival would be FRA or CDG. FRA/LH failed in the past, but with an aircraft more efficient than the A343, I think it might have a shot at making it. BCN or DUB just wouldn't have a prayer.


I've always wondered why LH hasn't given FRA-PHX a shot in recent times given some of the other US cities they fly to. Sort of ironic considering LH conducts their pilot training in the west valley.
 
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Re: LHR-PHX x10 weekly in summer 2017

Thu Dec 29, 2016 9:15 pm

atcsundevil wrote:
rbavfan wrote:
It could only land & T-O on the north runway. If anything happened to the runway they would be stuck till it was fixed. Sky harbor put in a tram that goes over the only taxiway that the A380 will fit on. They made it's height good enough to fit a 747 but not the A380.

Are you sure? I'm 99% sure that they gave it clearance for an A380. At any rate, they could still use taxiways Sierra or Tango, there just couldn't be cross-traffic on the other taxiway.


The A380 is limited to most of the Group V taxi routes with the exception of Romeo. The SkyTrain bridge will not clear the tail of the A380 should the nose gear collapse. Sierra/Tango are available though. The biggest issue is that it would prohibit movements on parallel taxiways and runways. Meaning, a landing on 8/26 would shut down Alpha and Bravo, and taxiing on Bravo would shut down 8/26 and Charlie.
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Vctony
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Re: LHR-PHX x10 weekly in summer 2017

Thu Dec 29, 2016 9:15 pm

incitatus wrote:
Funny yesterday I read an article on USA Today implying that American Airlines was about to vanish from PHX.


That article didn't say AA was going to vanish, it highlighted the changes that have occurred since the merger where AA now has less flights and less seats from PHX than pre merger AA and US. PHX won't be dehubbed, it's simply being right sized in the new larger AA network.
 
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Re: LHR-PHX x10 weekly in summer 2017

Thu Dec 29, 2016 9:36 pm

reality wrote:
Flighty wrote:
No, it's not O&D alone. California is a big deal for PHX, and would be for BA's flight... especially now that it is AA. SJC, SNA, ONT, SBA, SBP. LGB, OAK, SMF, FAT. These things add up. PHX is more or less the best way to get to them.


The best way unless you go non-stop on BA to SJC and OAK from London.


Well done there :D would not have suspected OAK had a BA flight.
 
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Re: LHR-PHX x10 weekly in summer 2017

Thu Dec 29, 2016 9:48 pm

777PHX wrote:
I've always wondered why LH hasn't given FRA-PHX a shot in recent times given some of the other US cities they fly to.

They already gave it a shot, and it failed.
What's changed, other than their competitor having grown a lot stronger since they left?


Flighty wrote:
Well done there :D would not have suspected OAK had a BA flight.

To be fair, it was announced only two months ago, alongside MSY and FLL.
Doesn't start until March.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
Osubuckeyes
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Re: LHR-PHX x10 weekly in summer 2017

Thu Dec 29, 2016 10:23 pm

LAX772LR wrote:
777PHX wrote:
I've always wondered why LH hasn't given FRA-PHX a shot in recent times given some of the other US cities they fly to.

They already gave it a shot, and it failed.
What's changed, other than their competitor having grown a lot stronger since they left?


Ten years of population and business growth... Not saying they would be successful, but the idea the same result is a foregone conclusion is a bit ridiculous as it has been quite some time.
 
wenders825
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Re: LHR-PHX x10 weekly in summer 2017

Thu Dec 29, 2016 10:30 pm

FlyCaledonian wrote:
Interesting addition by BA. Would suggest that the AA/BA joint venture is making PHX work as a connection hub as I don't believe these additional flights would be driven by O&D traffic alone. I wonder if we could see AA add a flight with its own metal within a couple of years, seeing AA and BA each operate daily on the route?

highly likely AA could run this route with a 332, 772, or something similar. I'm sure it'll come eventually.

as far as the asian airline, JAL or Hainan are the best bets I think.
 
777PHX
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Re: LHR-PHX x10 weekly in summer 2017

Thu Dec 29, 2016 10:52 pm

LAX772LR wrote:
777PHX wrote:
I've always wondered why LH hasn't given FRA-PHX a shot in recent times given some of the other US cities they fly to.

They already gave it a shot, and it failed.
What's changed, other than their competitor having grown a lot stronger since they left?


That service ended 13(!) years ago and Arizona, and the Phoenix area specifically, is one of the fastest growing areas in the country. Clearly something has changed if BA has gone from less than daily to better than daily in the same period of time.
 
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Re: LHR-PHX x10 weekly in summer 2017

Thu Dec 29, 2016 10:53 pm

FlyCaledonian wrote:
Interesting addition by BA. Would suggest that the AA/BA joint venture is making PHX work as a connection hub as I don't believe these additional flights would be driven by O&D traffic alone. I wonder if we could see AA add a flight with its own metal within a couple of years, seeing AA and BA each operate daily on the route?



AA and BA may have a JV but only BA operate daily soon to be 10 weekly on PHX to LHR, AA do not operate daily on the route, they don't even fly the route.
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LAX772LR
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Re: LHR-PHX x10 weekly in summer 2017

Thu Dec 29, 2016 10:56 pm

Osubuckeyes wrote:
Ten years of population and business growth.

Also growth from a 772 to a 10xwk 744 in a competitor with two decades of exposure to the market, in addition to a now immunized hub by its primary N.American partner.


Osubuckeyes wrote:
Not saying they would be successful, but the idea the same result is a foregone conclusion is a bit ridiculous as it has been quite some time.

The question is, do the two cancel each other out?
LH displaying no apparent interest in the market, as BA grows and grows, could signal that they do.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
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atcsundevil
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Re: LHR-PHX x10 weekly in summer 2017

Thu Dec 29, 2016 11:16 pm

LAX772LR wrote:
The question is, do the two cancel each other out?
LH displaying no apparent interest in the market, as BA grows and grows, could signal that they do.

I don't see the issue as LH being flat out not interested in returning -- they have apparently looked at returning multiple times over the years, and could potentially still do so with Eurowings (although it's a ways off at best). The bigger issue for LH, the way I see it, is that they don't operate an ideal aircraft for this route. If they had 787s, I think it would be a very different discussion, because I think a 788 or 789 for FRA-PHX is exactly what those airplanes were designed for. However, given their current fleet, the fact that it is undoubtedly a route requiring a smaller widebody, and given the distance and performance demands required, their options are extremely limited. To me, that is what precludes them most from returning to the Phoenix market.
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: LHR-PHX x10 weekly in summer 2017

Thu Dec 29, 2016 11:32 pm

atcsundevil wrote:
The bigger issue for LH, the way I see it, is that they don't operate an ideal aircraft for this route. If they had 787s, I think it would be a very different discussion, because I think a 788 or 789 for FRA-PHX is exactly what those airplanes were designed for. However, given their current fleet, the fact that it is undoubtedly a route requiring a smaller widebody, and given the distance and performance demands required, their options are extremely limited. To me, that is what precludes them most from returning to the Phoenix market.

Sure, but imagining what an airline might do with aircraft that it doesn't have (nor even have on order) is in the realm of the completely hypothetical.... far from reality, or that which is even "likely."

That's like saying "US could've made their interest in China work if they had 777s or A340s"
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
777PHX
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Re: LHR-PHX x10 weekly in summer 2017

Thu Dec 29, 2016 11:44 pm

atcsundevil wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
The question is, do the two cancel each other out?
LH displaying no apparent interest in the market, as BA grows and grows, could signal that they do.

I don't see the issue as LH being flat out not interested in returning -- they have apparently looked at returning multiple times over the years, and could potentially still do so with Eurowings (although it's a ways off at best). The bigger issue for LH, the way I see it, is that they don't operate an ideal aircraft for this route. If they had 787s, I think it would be a very different discussion, because I think a 788 or 789 for FRA-PHX is exactly what those airplanes were designed for. However, given their current fleet, the fact that it is undoubtedly a route requiring a smaller widebody, and given the distance and performance demands required, their options are extremely limited. To me, that is what precludes them most from returning to the Phoenix market.


Exactly.

This is the perfect route for something like the 788 or 789 in three class config(bus, prem econ, econ). However, the smallest widebody LH has by pax count is the A333, and that’s only because it has a four class format with a first class cabin and is therefore less dense than it could be.

Anecdotally, the BA flights are always super expensive compared to other ex-USA BA flights and they're also starting this flight in the summer time, which suggests to me that they're not concerned about tourism traffic and they must be getting the yields to make it worth their while.
 
cornishsimon
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Re: LHR-PHX x10 weekly in summer 2017

Fri Dec 30, 2016 12:05 am

For info, currently speaking BA only have a small "sub fleet" of A388s, these are all tied up, the 744 is a good choice as it provides good resilience in the event of sickness etc downroute, ongoing it could become an A388 route if BA order more, or a 789/777 etc


cs
 
wn676
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Re: LHR-PHX x10 weekly in summer 2017

Fri Dec 30, 2016 12:08 am

RobertPhoenix wrote:
rbavfan wrote:
windian425 wrote:
Surely a daily A380 should cover the PHX route.


It could only land & T-O on the north runway. If anything happened to the runway they would be stuck till it was fixed. Sky harbor put in a tram that goes over the only taxiway that the A380 will fit on. They made it's height good enough to fit a 747 but not the A380.


I checked when the bridge was being built, and there was 10 feet to spare at that time for A380,

According to Wikipedia "The PHX Sky Train features a 100-foot-tall (30 m) bridge over Taxiway R, one of three which connect the north and south runways. This is the first location in the world where a rail system of any kind crosses over an active taxiway.[4][5] The bridge is tall enough to accommodate a Boeing 747 and an Airbus A380."


The clearance is only about 90', which IIRC is enough under under normal circumstances but I believe does not meet the same design criteria they used for Group V aircraft.

Either way, with a clear span between the piers of 327', they're about 59' short for a Group VI TOFA.
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grbauc
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Re: LHR-PHX x10 weekly in summer 2017

Fri Dec 30, 2016 12:13 am

Cunard wrote:
FlyCaledonian wrote:
Interesting addition by BA. Would suggest that the AA/BA joint venture is making PHX work as a connection hub as I don't believe these additional flights would be driven by O&D traffic alone. I wonder if we could see AA add a flight with its own metal within a couple of years, seeing AA and BA each operate daily on the route?



AA and BA may have a JV but only BA operate daily soon to be 10 weekly on PHX to LHR, AA do not operate daily on the route, they don't even fly the route.


they fly it from there other hubs and tru code share the time might be coming soon that they do start flying some on there own metal.
 
grbauc
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Re: LHR-PHX x10 weekly in summer 2017

Fri Dec 30, 2016 12:15 am

LAX772LR wrote:
Osubuckeyes wrote:
Ten years of population and business growth.

Also growth from a 772 to a 10xwk 744 in a competitor with two decades of exposure to the market, in addition to a now immunized hub by its primary N.American partner.


Osubuckeyes wrote:
Not saying they would be successful, but the idea the same result is a foregone conclusion is a bit ridiculous as it has been quite some time.

The question is, do the two cancel each other out?
LH displaying no apparent interest in the market, as BA grows and grows, could signal that they do.


LH should of jumped on it when US was in star. I think the ship has sailed and LH has bigger problems not to deal with.
 
grbauc
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Re: LHR-PHX x10 weekly in summer 2017

Fri Dec 30, 2016 12:16 am

atcsundevil wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
The question is, do the two cancel each other out?
LH displaying no apparent interest in the market, as BA grows and grows, could signal that they do.

I don't see the issue as LH being flat out not interested in returning -- they have apparently looked at returning multiple times over the years, and could potentially still do so with Eurowings (although it's a ways off at best). The bigger issue for LH, the way I see it, is that they don't operate an ideal aircraft for this route. If they had 787s, I think it would be a very different discussion, because I think a 788 or 789 for FRA-PHX is exactly what those airplanes were designed for. However, given their current fleet, the fact that it is undoubtedly a route requiring a smaller widebody, and given the distance and performance demands required, their options are extremely limited. To me, that is what precludes them most from returning to the Phoenix market.


I think your dead on with this. The European airlines kinda are going through what the US airlines went through in 2008.
 
777PHX
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Re: LHR-PHX x10 weekly in summer 2017

Fri Dec 30, 2016 12:24 am

cornishsimon wrote:
For info, currently speaking BA only have a small "sub fleet" of A388s, these are all tied up, the 744 is a good choice as it provides good resilience in the event of sickness etc downroute, ongoing it could become an A388 route if BA order more, or a 789/777 etc
cs


Aside from the logistical reasons that have already been well detailed here. The A380 is far too premium to operate this route. BA doesn’t even sell F class on this route.
 
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TedToToe
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Re: LHR-PHX x10 weekly in summer 2017

Fri Dec 30, 2016 12:59 am

777PHX wrote:
BA doesn’t even sell F class on this route.

Really? I remember there was a time when BA had some 744's with 'old' First cabins and sold them as Club World, but that was around two years ago!
 
vv701
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Re: LHR-PHX x10 weekly in summer 2017

Fri Dec 30, 2016 1:01 am

777PHX wrote:
BA doesn’t even sell F class on this route.


They do. The base F Class return ticket price is £7,574 according to their UK web site.

Currently the alternative on offer is LHR-DFW-PHX-DFW-LHR where the base price for an F Class ticket is £8,077 travelling either on BA-AA-AA-BA or AA-AA-AA-AA metal.
 
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atcsundevil
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Re: LHR-PHX x10 weekly in summer 2017

Fri Dec 30, 2016 1:25 am

LAX772LR wrote:
Sure, but imagining what an airline might do with aircraft that it doesn't have (nor even have on order) is in the realm of the completely hypothetical.... far from reality, or that which is even "likely."

That's like saying "US could've made their interest in China work if they had 777s or A340s"

Okay, but that isn't what I was doing. I was simply making the point that the route is unlikely to be feasible due to lack of appropriate aircraft. That isn't the same thing as imagining what they would do with said aircraft, just that the presence of those aircraft would open up additional/currently unfeasible markets.

777PHX wrote:
Exactly.

This is the perfect route for something like the 788 or 789 in three class config(bus, prem econ, econ). However, the smallest widebody LH has by pax count is the A333, and that’s only because it has a four class format with a first class cabin and is therefore less dense than it could be.

And the fact that the A333 is the closest appropriate aircraft is exactly is the problem. If the distance between Phoenix and Frankfurt were less and/or it wasn't as hot in the summer, then maybe it would be a more realistic possibility. Since the flight is approaching the upper limits of the aircraft's capability, it would be very hard to make an A333 work on a consistently profitable basis. BA can make it work with LHR, but the dynamics of LHR and FRA are quite different, not to mention the lack of alliance hub feed on both ends for FRA.

grbauc wrote:
LH should of jumped on it when US was in star. I think the ship has sailed and LH has bigger problems not to deal with.

While I think it's a little more complicated than this (like not having the right aircraft for the route), there is a huge amount of truth in this. The Star feed on both ends would have provided a healthy boost that now no longer exists, and is now further bolstering BA's position in the market. If PHX were still a Star hub, the circumstances would be rather different.
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: LHR-PHX x10 weekly in summer 2017

Fri Dec 30, 2016 1:34 am

atcsundevil wrote:
That isn't the same thing as imagining what they would do with said aircraft, just that the presence of those aircraft would open up additional/currently unfeasible markets.

Possibly, but who's to say that PHX is such a market?

The 787/A350 are efficient, but they're not magical-- if the market's not there for a second Euro carrier, then having those aircraft doesn't change that. Especially as the incumbent grows.

Without far more information on just what the scope of PHX's TATL market actually is, we can't definitively say that a type of aircraft alone (no matter how efficient) would (or even could likely) be the difference between success and failure for a particular airline.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
910A
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Re: LHR-PHX x10 weekly in summer 2017

Fri Dec 30, 2016 2:25 am

LAX772LR wrote:
Also growth from a 772 to a 10xwk 744 in a competitor with two decades of exposure to the market, in addition to a now immunized hub by its primary N.American partner.


Actually the service started with a DC-10 that was shared with SAN.

It seems strange that the new service is only for two months, although it does match the summer vacations schedule for most of the school districts here in Arizona. Most schools here, return the first week of August.
 
AZPilotDream
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Re: LHR-PHX x10 weekly in summer 2017

Fri Dec 30, 2016 2:46 am

I have a friend who works for BA at Sky Harbor and he informed me about this months back, he also stated that one of the main reasons for this is because of massive issues this past summer in the California market with BA. Stating that a very large amount of delays and cancellations forced BA to move passengers around and thus delaying those passengers by days at some point. That this additional flight is suppose to support any "overflow" from the California market and that is the main focus of this flight. I have found it puzzling though because every time I have flown the flight there has always been more seats open then taken, and what I am being told seems legit...but I just can't see that the whole California market having that big of an impact on BA to justify adding an additional flight. Especially in the summer time where (I will loosely use "sometime") have issues with heat, and I could see Vegas being closer for the LAX/SFO overflow if it was such a problem.

BTW this is my first real post and I hope I made myself clear enough.

Happy Flying
 
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atcsundevil
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Re: LHR-PHX x10 weekly in summer 2017

Fri Dec 30, 2016 6:25 am

LAX772LR wrote:
Possibly, but who's to say that PHX is such a market?

Who's to say they aren't? That's still beside the point, because my statement was that Lufthansa doesn't operate the aircraft necessary to operate a route >5,000mi to a second tier int'l market. That could include PHX, SAN, LAS, or a number of other cities. I didn't say that if LH had a 787 that PHX would then receive service.

In any event, the point is moot. This move is further solidifying BA's position in the PHX market, which will make it that much more difficult for any new entrant (that isn't AA, anyway) to even consider European service.
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: LHR-PHX x10 weekly in summer 2017

Fri Dec 30, 2016 8:10 am

910A wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
Also growth from a 772 to a 10xwk 744 in a competitor with two decades of exposure to the market, in addition to a now immunized hub by its primary N.American partner.

Actually the service started with a DC-10 that was shared with SAN.

Well aware, but what I'm talking about is the growth by BA since LH left the market.


atcsundevil wrote:
Who's to say they aren't?

....well: the fact that no one else has bothered, for nearly a decade and a half, as one potential counterpoint.

All while non-hub metros half its size (e.g. AUS, MSY, RDU, PIT, etc) have successfully attracted multiple Euro carriers/services within the same time frame.

Granted, I know that that's not definitive sufficiently to be conclusive as to what the market is capable of, hence the previous call for more information being need. But it is worth pointing out.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
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atcsundevil
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Re: LHR-PHX x10 weekly in summer 2017

Fri Dec 30, 2016 8:54 am

LAX772LR wrote:
....well: the fact that no one else has bothered, for nearly a decade and a half, as one potential counterpoint.

You're going around in circles, man. As I've said twice now, LH hasn't bothered because they don't have an airplane suitable for the market. I have not said that having a suitable aircraft equates to them flying the route, but saying no one has bothered as a potential counterpoint isn't applying that critical piece of information to the equation. Nobody has started IAD-HKG; saying no one has bothered is faulty logic, because in all actuality, until very recently no one has a suitable airplane to fly it. The same thing applies here. The existence of this very thread proves that a PHX-Europe market exists, and the absence of competitors is more than partially attributed to a lack of suitable aircraft to profitably sustain additional service.

LAX772LR wrote:
All while non-hub metros half its size (e.g. AUS, MSY, RDU, PIT, etc) have successfully attracted multiple Euro carriers/services within the same time frame.

Those are poor examples since they're all at least 1,000mi less range, so you're comparing apples and oranges. 20-40% less flying time not only means it's that much easier to make the route profitable, but it means airlines have far greater choice in equipment to operate with.
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: LHR-PHX x10 weekly in summer 2017

Fri Dec 30, 2016 9:14 am

atcsundevil wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
....well: the fact that no one else has bothered, for nearly a decade and a half, as one potential counterpoint.

You're going around in circles, man. As I've said twice now, LH hasn't bothered because they don't have an airplane suitable for the market.

NEWSFLASH: LH isn't the only other transatlantic airline in the world.

As stated, no one else has either... and those others DO have sufficient aircraft and/or lower cost. Including the hub carrier.

Nothing is preventing them from launching PHX- Europe, other than not seeing a worthwhile market for a second carrier. This, while they expand all throughout the rest of the country.

That's the point that was being addressed.



atcsundevil wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
All while non-hub metros half its size (e.g. AUS, MSY, RDU, PIT, etc) have successfully attracted multiple Euro carriers/services within the same time frame.

Those are poor examples since they're all at least 1,000mi less range,

Yeah, they're all also about 2million less people.
And yet, they're able to gain the interest of multiple carriers when PHX has not



atcsundevil wrote:
40% less flying time not only means it's that much easier to make the route profitable

Come now, 2-3 extra hours of flying, while significant, isn't going to change the dynamics as much as you're attempting to suggest it will. We're not talking about ULH here.

If you need further examples, look to the strengths of PDX and SAN:
Still smaller metros, still west coast distances-- yet still able to attract multiple European carriers/services, all on '90s-generation aircraft....... whereas PHX doesn't.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
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Re: LHR-PHX x10 weekly in summer 2017

Fri Dec 30, 2016 9:29 am

Flighty wrote:
No, it's not O&D alone. California is a big deal for PHX, and would be for BA's flight... especially now that it is AA. SJC, SNA, ONT, SBA, SBP. LGB, OAK, SMF, FAT. These things add up. PHX is more or less the best way to get to them.


I'm a little lost here, are you saying that taking the BA flight into PHX, then connecting to there cities on another flight is better than flying into LAX/SFO/SJC/OAK on a direct flight then jumping in a car ?

Sorry, I don't see it that way, i'm glad that PHX finally manged to get a second flight 3 days a week, but really, it's there for the local market, not for connecting into California.

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