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boilerla
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LA Times: Soon every day at LAX is holiday travel mess

Fri Dec 30, 2016 7:47 am

LAX had a rough Christmas holiday travel season about according to the LA Times, that's going to be more the normal experience.

http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-m ... story.html

Frankly they're right. As the article points out the airport was designed to handle 40 million passengers not 80 million. Drop off or pickup from T4 or T5 are like driving to the Valley in rush hour traffic. The terminals got nicer but much busier, negating any facade improvements. And the taxi times and time spent "waiting for gates" on the taxiway are excruciating--I now wait to tell people I landed until we're actually at a gate since most times it takes 20 minutes during peak times.

LAWA has high hopes for the people mover and consolidated rental facility to reduce traffic outside but nothing much to reduce gate crunch and terminal congestion.
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: LA Times: Soon every day at LAX is holiday travel mess

Fri Dec 30, 2016 8:17 am

Doesn't the cap on gates lift relatively soon? (2019-ish?)
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
kaitak744
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Re: LA Times: Soon every day at LAX is holiday travel mess

Fri Dec 30, 2016 8:49 am

That people mover needed to be built 20 years ago...

I have found a big cause of the traffic congestion is all the big busses and shuttles pulling in and out of their curb spaces. If these can all be brought away from the main road, that will be a HUGE improvement.

I think LAX is the only major city airport in the world without a direct mass transit connection.
 
anshabhi
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Re: LA Times: Soon every day at LAX is holiday travel mess

Fri Dec 30, 2016 9:03 am

I think renovation/modernization of American airports would be a major part of Trump's plan to create jobs in America..
 
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intotheair
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Re: LA Times: Soon every day at LAX is holiday travel mess

Fri Dec 30, 2016 9:15 am

I'm scared for my flight back. I've been watching the DEN-LAX flights on DL for the last few days, and most of them seem to be running late. One yesterday was delayed six hours — I wonder why?

LAX is still one of the coolest airports in the world because of all the nationalities, airlines, and great planespotting, but it still is a mess. The new TBIT is great, of course, and T4-5-6 have gotten nicer, but there's still nowhere to sit, and a lot of the concessions are really busy. There's always a really long line at the Coffee Bean in T5.

When I depart, it only takes about 30 minutes for me to get from my apartment in east LA to the 105 turnoff, but then traffic crawls for another 30 minutes just to get to the terminals. I usually tell my driver to turn off at T7, even though I usually depart from T5. Upon arrival, last time I came in around 5:30p, and I decided to just walk into TBIT, have dinner there, and wait until traffic died down, though that didn't seem to help much at all.

Question: is drop off on the arrivals level any better?
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LAX772LR
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Re: LA Times: Soon every day at LAX is holiday travel mess

Fri Dec 30, 2016 10:04 am

intotheair wrote:
Question: is drop off on the arrivals level any better?

I've always personally found that to be the case, if coming off of Sepulveda (southbound) or Century, into the loop.

The secret to coming off the 105 onto Sepulveda northbound? ....don't do it.
You're screwed from the tunnel to the loop, unless you're attempting it at 4am. No real point in trying to go to arrivals at that point.

Or if you must, then get off the 105 at La Cienega or Aviation, and drive the backroads to Century.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
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intotheair
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Re: LA Times: Soon every day at LAX is holiday travel mess

Fri Dec 30, 2016 10:40 am

LAX772LR wrote:
intotheair wrote:
Question: is drop off on the arrivals level any better?

I've always personally found that to be the case, if coming off of Sepulveda (southbound) or Century, into the loop.

The secret to coming off the 105 onto Sepulveda northbound? ....don't do it.
You're screwed from the tunnel to the loop, unless you're attempting it at 4am. No real point in trying to go to arrivals at that point.

Or if you must, then get off the 105 at La Cienega or Aviation, and drive the backroads to Century.


Thanks for the tips. I think 105 to Sepulveda northbound is usually the way Uber drivers go. I don't pay too much attention because I usually zone out and planespot, but next time I might try the Century approach. Living in LA reaaaally makes me miss walking to BART and then walking all the way to my gate at SFO.
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dc10lover
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Re: LA Times: Soon every day at LAX is holiday travel mess

Fri Dec 30, 2016 11:15 am

Unless you are flying international, do NOT fly out of lax. Fly out of the other nearby airports.
Why endure the nightmare and congestion of LAX when BUR, LGB, ONT & SNA is so much easier to fly in and out of. Same with OAK & SJC when it comes to SFO.
 
kaitak744
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Re: LA Times: Soon every day at LAX is holiday travel mess

Fri Dec 30, 2016 11:31 am

anshabhi wrote:
I think renovation/modernization of American airports would be a major part of Trump's plan to create jobs in America..


The modernizations in question that will solve LAX's current issues are already happening, and have nothing to do with the Trump's administration's plans.
 
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Re: LA Times: Soon every day at LAX is holiday travel mess

Fri Dec 30, 2016 11:32 am

dc10lover wrote:
Unless you are flying international, do NOT fly out of lax. Fly out of the other nearby airports.


This isn't always doable. LAX still has better fares than BUR, LGB, SNA, or ONT. It is located in a central location to most of the L.A. area, and just has far more domestic options.
 
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intotheair
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Re: LA Times: Soon every day at LAX is holiday travel mess

Fri Dec 30, 2016 11:33 am

dc10lover wrote:
Unless you are flying international, do NOT fly out of lax. Fly out of the other nearby airports.


That may be easy to say, but depending on the circumstances, not so easily done. At BUR, fares are usually higher with fewer flights and a less than ideal schedule. LAX has so many flights and so much competition that the fares are sometimes ridiculously low, and the schedule is always good. The only exception to that may be intra-California routes on WN. In that case, then yeah, you're probably better off avoiding LAX. But if you're headed anywhere outside the state, it's more likely you're going to pick LAX.
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dc10lover
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Re: LA Times: Soon every day at LAX is holiday travel mess

Fri Dec 30, 2016 12:27 pm

I am glad i don't have to deal with the mess. Let other people deal with it.
Why endure the nightmare and congestion of LAX when BUR, LGB, ONT & SNA is so much easier to fly in and out of. Same with OAK & SJC when it comes to SFO.
 
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jfklganyc
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Re: LA Times: Soon every day at LAX is holiday travel mess

Fri Dec 30, 2016 12:37 pm

I'm always amazed that a region of freeways requires you to get off onto a street to access the major airport in the area

I'm always amazed at the lack of rail access to anywhere

I'm always amazed by just how small and cramped old and ugly most of LAX is.

LAX is like JFK and LGA got together, had a one night stand, and created this baby that has the worst traits of both.

In the space they have, they need an ATL style single terminal closest to the entrance followed by rows of parallel concourses connected underground.

That airport is so small, there should be minimal roadways on property. A unified large terminal on the property edge connected to the freeway, rail and a short walk to adjacent rental cars. Anything short of that just puts lipstick on the pig
 
us330
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Re: LA Times: Soon every day at LAX is holiday travel mess

Fri Dec 30, 2016 1:02 pm

kaitak744 wrote:
That people mover needed to be built 20 years ago...

I have found a big cause of the traffic congestion is all the big busses and shuttles pulling in and out of their curb spaces. If these can all be brought away from the main road, that will be a HUGE improvement.

I think LAX is the only major city airport in the world without a direct mass transit connection.


Nope--Houston is even farther behind LAX in that regard. Neither IAH nor HOU have a rail link anywhere close to the airport.
 
andrew50
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Re: LA Times: Soon every day at LAX is holiday travel mess

Fri Dec 30, 2016 1:33 pm

I was at LAX in November. I was taking night shots from the roof level of P3. The traffic was so incredible I had to take a video to show my wife when I got back to the hotel, this was around 9 PM at night. I have been shooting at night from that location for years and although the traffic has been heavy in the past, it seems to have really got worse! When we left we were flying AA and took the shuttle bus from the rental car agency, I think AA is the last terminal, the traffic was like being on a freeway during rush hour. It took forever to get dropped off.
 
sptv
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Re: LA Times: Soon every day at LAX is holiday travel mess

Fri Dec 30, 2016 2:20 pm

I fly in and out of LAX almost every week, have been for 8 years. Arriving on Fri night, leaving Sun late afternoon/evening. Traffic at the airport has gotten exponentially worse in the past year. It's THAT noticeable. I attribute the change to three things:

1) AA/US merger, which has resulted in the Big 3 (plus AS, which also has a big operation at LAX) all on the south side of the terminal. This creates excess traffic on the roadways on the Southside (which backs up all the way around the loop). It also creates traffic in the alleyways jet side, which is causing huge delays for planes that have landed but can't get to their gates. [This may be helped once Delta moves to T2/3.]

2) Construction on the facade of T1, which has lanes blocked on the departures level and creates a bottleneck at the entrance to the airport loop.

3) Uber and other ride-share vehicles, which had been prohibited from entering the airport loop are now very common, but are relegated to the departure level, even for pick ups. So the departure level is getting a disproportionate amount of traffic.
 
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JetBuddy
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Re: LA Times: Soon every day at LAX is holiday travel mess

Fri Dec 30, 2016 2:36 pm

anshabhi wrote:
I think renovation/modernization of American airports would be a major part of Trump's plan to create jobs in America..


I agree. He's stated he'll ask Congress for a $1 trillion package to improve infrastructure, and he's mentioned airports specifically as one area to improve. So there's hope.

kaitak744 wrote:
The modernizations in question that will solve LAX's current issues are already happening, and have nothing to do with the Trump's administration's plans.


What are these modernizations that are already happening?
 
jumbojet
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Re: LA Times: Soon every day at LAX is holiday travel mess

Fri Dec 30, 2016 2:53 pm

The LAX train cant come soon enough, it looks like it wont be completed until 2023. Judging by the plans, it will keep all the rental car shuttles and hotel shuttles off the airport property, similar to what the AirTraIn did for JFK. They should also force UBER to pick up at the proposed ITF west facility.
 
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LAXintl
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Re: LA Times: Soon every day at LAX is holiday travel mess

Fri Dec 30, 2016 3:28 pm

The holiday mess was more airside caused meltdown than issues airside.

During the period LAX had several days of reverse East traffic flow due to Pacific weather front. East flow has basically a 20% lower traffic flow rate.
Also the FAA mandated 2-year Runway Safety Area project continues. At the moment they are working on runway 25R/07L which was shortened from 12,091ft to about 9,000ft necessitating many longhaul flights to seek the remaining longer runways. In addition, a slew of associated taxiways were closed which made ground movement even more complicated.

Lastly, many airline terminals had gates out of service for constructions or renovation. T1, T4 and T7 each had gates out of service which limited airline ops flexibility.

Between the weather and runway work, the FAA instituted an inbound flow delay program for LAX.
Ultimately combined with other weather issues nationally it did not take long for large portion of LAX flights to operate off schedule creating bottlenecks and snowball effect with many terminals even approaching their fire occupancy limits as people milled around.



p.s. - forgot to add - portions of Terminals 5, 6, and 7 were each evacuated on the same day due unattended baggage, further throwing off the operation.
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bohica
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Re: LA Times: Soon every day at LAX is holiday travel mess

Fri Dec 30, 2016 4:56 pm

anshabhi wrote:
I think renovation/modernization of American airports would be a major part of Trump's plan to create jobs in America..

:rotfl:
 
ericm2031
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Re: LA Times: Soon every day at LAX is holiday travel mess

Fri Dec 30, 2016 6:23 pm

I heard the delays will be worsening next month due to continued and more impactful construction
 
The777Man
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Re: LA Times: Soon every day at LAX is holiday travel mess

Fri Dec 30, 2016 6:26 pm

When will they finish work on 25R ? It seems they have been working on that for a while and it doesn't like close to being finished at all.....

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Re: LA Times: Soon every day at LAX is holiday travel mess

Fri Dec 30, 2016 6:40 pm

ericm2031 wrote:
I heard the delays will be worsening next month due to continued and more impactful construction

Nothing unique planned on airfield, though some individual airlines could have a tougher time.

3 TBIT gates will be out of service as part of the Delta Airline redevelopment project and United will have additional gates out of service in its terminal.

The777Man wrote:
When will they finish work on 25R ? It seems they have been working on that for a while and it doesn't like close to being finished at all.....


The 25R RSA project planned till February 7th. Adjacent taxiways (Taxiway B for example) planned completion is January 31st.
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flyfresno
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Re: LA Times: Soon every day at LAX is holiday travel mess

Fri Dec 30, 2016 6:53 pm

75% of the cars clogging the roadway around LAX are Uber or Lyft. The airport really screwed the pooch on this one...there should be shuttles out to a shared lot where patrons can catch their ride. With the 30+ minute waits for a car during peak times, I would think even people who work for and/or take those car services would agree to that. Waiting 5+ years for the train line and new transportation facility to open is unacceptable.
 
DfwRevolution
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Re: LA Times: Soon every day at LAX is holiday travel mess

Fri Dec 30, 2016 6:54 pm

jumbojet wrote:
The LAX train cant come soon enough, it looks like it wont be completed until 2023. Judging by the plans, it will keep all the rental car shuttles and hotel shuttles off the airport property, similar to what the AirTraIn did for JFK. They should also force UBER to pick up at the proposed ITF west facility.


Am I the only person concerned that the LAX train won't produce the desired traffic relief?

I would ball-park the shuttle bus traffic as perhaps 20% of vehicles entering World Way and the train isn't going to eliminate all of them. At present growth rates, the airport will be doing another 20% passenger movements by the mid 2020s. I think the fundamental problem remains that you are mixing traffic to all of the terminals into the same flow. You can be going to T8 and get stuck behind someone double-parking the T2 unloading area.
I have a three post per topic limit. You're welcome to have the last word.
 
carljanderson
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Re: LA Times: Soon every day at LAX is holiday travel mess

Fri Dec 30, 2016 6:57 pm

JetBuddy wrote:

What are these modernizations that are already happening?


http://www.connectinglax.com/

The ConRAC and APM may be done by 2023 (in time for a 2024 Olympics  :weightlifter: )
 
flyfresno
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Re: LA Times: Soon every day at LAX is holiday travel mess

Fri Dec 30, 2016 7:22 pm

DfwRevolution wrote:
jumbojet wrote:
The LAX train cant come soon enough, it looks like it wont be completed until 2023. Judging by the plans, it will keep all the rental car shuttles and hotel shuttles off the airport property, similar to what the AirTraIn did for JFK. They should also force UBER to pick up at the proposed ITF west facility.


Am I the only person concerned that the LAX train won't produce the desired traffic relief?

I would ball-park the shuttle bus traffic as perhaps 20% of vehicles entering World Way and the train isn't going to eliminate all of them. At present growth rates, the airport will be doing another 20% passenger movements by the mid 2020s. I think the fundamental problem remains that you are mixing traffic to all of the terminals into the same flow. You can be going to T8 and get stuck behind someone double-parking the T2 unloading area.


Totally agree with the 20% estimate and need for more relief...Uber and Lyft.
 
ldvaviation
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Re: LA Times: Soon every day at LAX is holiday travel mess

Fri Dec 30, 2016 7:26 pm

JetBuddy wrote:
I agree. He's stated he'll ask Congress for a $1 trillion package to improve infrastructure, and he's mentioned airports specifically as one area to improve. So there's hope.


He's not asking for $1 trillion dollars from Congress. He will be asking for tax credits on private financing of infrastructure projects.

Private developers are interested only in projects with profit potential. Which means that you will see more of the tax credits go to projects in New York, Los Angeles, and Chicago because that is where the opportunity for profit is greater and more predictable. For example, it might kickstart the terminal makeover at ORD and a terminal makeover at JFK. It could even expedite the construction of Terminal 0 and 9 at LAX. As with Trump's tax cuts, the coastal elites who didn't vote for Trump stand to benefit more from Trump's infrastructure financing plan than the Trump voters in red states. Go figure.

Whatever the case, any involvement of private developers is likely to make it more expensive for the end users of all these projects. And, when these things go wrong and fail to make a profit, taxpayers pick up a much larger bill for the whole thing. See the 73 toll road in Orange County (CA).

On that note, as if things weren't ironic enough, I think I need to point out that the economist who came up with Trump's infrastructure, financing plan teaches at UC Irvine. The 73 toll road flanks the western side of UC Irvine. Some people never learn.
 
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Re: LA Times: Soon every day at LAX is holiday travel mess

Fri Dec 30, 2016 7:28 pm

dc10lover wrote:
Unless you are flying international, do NOT fly out of lax. Fly out of the other nearby airports.

That sounds nice in theory, but realistically, it doesn't make sense for most.

LAX is as busy as it is, because it's BY FAR the overall most convenient + lowest fare gateway, for the overwhelming majority of the metro.

BUR is fine for those living in the Valley, but if you don't want to fly WN then you're definitely not gaining any advantage there. Same for those at LGB who aren't flying B6.

SNA is pointless for most people who live north of the South-Bay area (which is probably about 70%+ of the metro), as is ONT for anyone who lives west of El Monte or so (which again, is probably 80%+ of the metro). In both cases, you're just going to pay more to have less choice, especially if you're not riding WN.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
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jsnww81
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Re: LA Times: Soon every day at LAX is holiday travel mess

Fri Dec 30, 2016 7:40 pm

It's noticeably worse than it was two years ago when I moved here. I live ten minutes from the airport entrance, but typically budget 25-30 minutes for transit to/from home. It's a perfect storm of:
- rising passenger numbers
- concentration of large airlines on the south side (this will get rebalanced soon when Delta moves, but will provide minor relief)
- construction (the facade work in front of T1, right at the entrance, took a lane out of service and is apparently NEVER going to finish. What the hell are they doing behind that wall??)
- forcing Uber and Lyft to pick up on the upper level, which has 50% less capacity than the arrivals road, as a concession to LA's miserable taxi drivers
- appallingly aggressive driving by rental car and offsite parking shuttle drivers, who routinely swerve across four lanes of traffic just because they're big enough to do it

I'm an AA frequent flyer, which means I'm frequently stuck at the one terminal that can't be accessed by using any of the "shortcuts." The curve between TBIT and T4 is typically the most congested part of the landside. The people mover will help but is still so far away (2023) that it's going to be a really frustrating couple of years.
 
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intotheair
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Re: LA Times: Soon every day at LAX is holiday travel mess

Sat Dec 31, 2016 10:14 am

flyfresno wrote:
75% of the cars clogging the roadway around LAX are Uber or Lyft. The airport really screwed the pooch on this one...there should be shuttles out to a shared lot where patrons can catch their ride. With the 30+ minute waits for a car during peak times, I would think even people who work for and/or take those car services would agree to that. Waiting 5+ years for the train line and new transportation facility to open is unacceptable.


It's amazing how detrimental these $800mn in a quarter loss making corporations have wreaked so much havoc on our public infrastructure. And I hate myself for being an Uber customer, but in LA, I really feel like there aren't many other options. Driving myself and parking doesn't save time or money; taking the bus from Union Station wouldn't save time and not all that much money; and it's hard to convince anyone to willingly drop off or pick up someone there.

'Rideshares' (particularly Uber) are such horrible corporations and are a serious threat to the future of public transit. At least LA voters recognized the value of a city with functioning infrastructure at the polls. I'm excited about all the new rail, though the connection to LAX will be suboptimal for most people, especially if coming from DTLA, as it will require two or more transfers from most directions. From my apartment, it will mean shlepping my bags in a 15 min walk to a Red Line station, transferring to the Expo Line at 7th St, transferring to the Crenshaw Line, and then finally transferring to the people mover. I guess it's better than nothing, and I will gladly try it out. When it opens in 2023. If I'm still living in LA by that point.

LAX772LR wrote:
dc10lover wrote:
Unless you are flying international, do NOT fly out of lax. Fly out of the other nearby airports.

That sounds nice in theory, but realistically, it doesn't make sense for most.

LAX is as busy as it is, because it's BY FAR the overall most convenient + lowest fare gateway, for the overwhelming majority of the metro.

BUR is fine for those living in the Valley, but if you don't want to fly WN then you're definitely not gaining any advantage there. Same for those at LGB who aren't flying B6.

SNA is pointless for most people who live north of the South-Bay area (which is probably about 70%+ of the metro), as is ONT for anyone who lives west of El Monte or so (which again, is probably 80%+ of the metro). In both cases, you're just going to pay more to have less choice, especially if you're not riding WN.


It's too bad increased air capacity at BUR and LGB is so politically toxic. Rehabbing those two into a capability of capturing even a third the amount of traffic that MDW handles would do wonders for LAX. If they had more competitive fares and schedules to even just a handful of cities across the west, they could serve as viable alternatives for more people living everywhere between the two. So many other cities function with more than one major airport (NYC, SF, DC, Chicago, London, Paris, Tokyo) and it's so ridiculous to think that LAX can and should swallow the bulk of the LA basin air traffic.

I guess it's the same kind of pervasive neoliberal ideology that has proven cancerous on America for the last few decades — let's suffocate government services with the expectation that they'll work better with less money. :roll:
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HVN2HEL2LAX
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Re: LA Times: Soon every day at LAX is holiday travel mess

Sat Dec 31, 2016 5:36 pm

Soon? LA times is behind.
 
DfwRevolution
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Re: LA Times: Soon every day at LAX is holiday travel mess

Sat Dec 31, 2016 5:55 pm

intotheair wrote:
flyfresno wrote:
75% of the cars clogging the roadway around LAX are Uber or Lyft. The airport really screwed the pooch on this one...there should be shuttles out to a shared lot where patrons can catch their ride. With the 30+ minute waits for a car during peak times, I would think even people who work for and/or take those car services would agree to that. Waiting 5+ years for the train line and new transportation facility to open is unacceptable.


It's amazing how detrimental these $800mn in a quarter loss making corporations have wreaked so much havoc on our public infrastructure. And I hate myself for being an Uber customer, but in LA, I really feel like there aren't many other options. Driving myself and parking doesn't save time or money; taking the bus from Union Station wouldn't save time and not all that much money; and it's hard to convince anyone to willingly drop off or pick up someone there.


Why do you hate a company that provides a useful service? As you noted, Uber and Lyft are often the best value considering time, money, and convenience.

I think you are also vastly overstating the "detriment" of rideshare companies. There's no way 75% of cars at LAX are rideshare. Maybe 5-10%. I exclusively use Uber to get to LAX, and there's rarely more than a dozen people waiting at the pick-up areas even during peak hours. Ratio that against the hundreds of people waiting around at any given moment.

intotheair wrote:
'Rideshares' (particularly Uber) are such horrible corporations and are a serious threat to the future of public transit.


Good. Let public transit die. Rideshare is the superior technology. Public transit will never take me door-to-door on my own time.

intotheair wrote:
'It's too bad increased air capacity at BUR and LGB is so politically toxic. Rehabbing those two into a capability of capturing even a third the amount of traffic that MDW handles would do wonders for LAX. If they had more competitive fares and schedules to even just a handful of cities across the west, they could serve as viable alternatives for more people living everywhere between the two. So many other cities function with more than one major airport (NYC, SF, DC, Chicago, London, Paris, Tokyo) and it's so ridiculous to think that LAX can and should swallow the bulk of the LA basin air traffic.

I guess it's the same kind of pervasive neoliberal ideology that has proven cancerous on America for the last few decades — let's suffocate government services with the expectation that they'll work better with less money. :roll:


Schedules and fares are not a matter of politics. Those are matters of commerce for the airlines to decide. Even setting aside the politics of expanding BUR or LGB, there are powerful market incentives that would keep "the bulk" of LA basin traffic at LAX.
I have a three post per topic limit. You're welcome to have the last word.
 
flyfresno
Posts: 1081
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Re: LA Times: Soon every day at LAX is holiday travel mess

Sat Dec 31, 2016 6:34 pm

DfwRevolution wrote:
intotheair wrote:
flyfresno wrote:
75% of the cars clogging the roadway around LAX are Uber or Lyft. The airport really screwed the pooch on this one...there should be shuttles out to a shared lot where patrons can catch their ride. With the 30+ minute waits for a car during peak times, I would think even people who work for and/or take those car services would agree to that. Waiting 5+ years for the train line and new transportation facility to open is unacceptable.


It's amazing how detrimental these $800mn in a quarter loss making corporations have wreaked so much havoc on our public infrastructure. And I hate myself for being an Uber customer, but in LA, I really feel like there aren't many other options. Driving myself and parking doesn't save time or money; taking the bus from Union Station wouldn't save time and not all that much money; and it's hard to convince anyone to willingly drop off or pick up someone there.


Why do you hate a company that provides a useful service? As you noted, Uber and Lyft are often the best value considering time, money, and convenience.

I think you are also vastly overstating the "detriment" of rideshare companies. There's no way 75% of cars at LAX are rideshare. Maybe 5-10%. I exclusively use Uber to get to LAX, and there's rarely more than a dozen people waiting at the pick-up areas even during peak hours. Ratio that against the hundreds of people waiting around at any given moment.


No way. I am at LAX all the time and there are almost always more than 15, usually 30-40 people standing at the ride share area during normal hours (i.e. not at 3am). And counting rideshade cars passing me last night on the curb, there were over 100 in a period of 10 minutes; I counted 21 cars without a logo and another 37 busses/shuttles. They ARE the majority of the cars on the roadway at LAX. I don't *hate* them, I just feel the demand during peak hours has a negative effect on everyone. Having shuttles to a lot outside the "U" would keep things moving and actually cut down on times for rodeshare pax. It took me 45 minutes the other day to get from near the ride share staging lot to Terminal 6, which also means anyone asking for a car waited at least that long. It's just not efficient for anyone.
Last edited by flyfresno on Sat Dec 31, 2016 6:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
bkflyguy
Posts: 232
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Re: LA Times: Soon every day at LAX is holiday travel mess

Sat Dec 31, 2016 6:35 pm

ldvaviation wrote:
JetBuddy wrote:
I agree. He's stated he'll ask Congress for a $1 trillion package to improve infrastructure, and he's mentioned airports specifically as one area to improve. So there's hope.


He's not asking for $1 trillion dollars from Congress. He will be asking for tax credits on private financing of infrastructure projects.

Private developers are interested only in projects with profit potential. Which means that you will see more of the tax credits go to projects in New York, Los Angeles, and Chicago because that is where the opportunity for profit is greater and more predictable. For example, it might kickstart the terminal makeover at ORD and a terminal makeover at JFK. It could even expedite the construction of Terminal 0 and 9 at LAX. As with Trump's tax cuts, the coastal elites who didn't vote for Trump stand to benefit more from Trump's infrastructure financing plan than the Trump voters in red states. Go figure.

Whatever the case, any involvement of private developers is likely to make it more expensive for the end users of all these projects. And, when these things go wrong and fail to make a profit, taxpayers pick up a much larger bill for the whole thing. See the 73 toll road in Orange County (CA).

On that note, as if things weren't ironic enough, I think I need to point out that the economist who came up with Trump's infrastructure, financing plan teaches at UC Irvine. The 73 toll road flanks the western side of UC Irvine. Some people never learn.


The "Trump" plan of using tax credits won't work. In order to get the capital needed for these projects, developers have to obtain tax equity financing to monetize the tax credits and get cash upfront. These are incredibly complex deals and there are only a few companies with enough tax appetite and sophistication to do them. The total tax equity market is around $60 billion and is already constrained (used up) by the affordablr housing and renewable energy tax credits. Even if those credits go away, there is nowhere enough tax equity to fund his infrastructure program.

On top of that, tax equity is very expensive and only 70-75 cents of every dollar make it to the project. The rest is eaten up by transaction costs. His plan, Like most things Trump, looks good on the surface but once you dig deeper, it is a flimsy sham.
 
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N62NA
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Re: LA Times: Soon every day at LAX is holiday travel mess

Sat Dec 31, 2016 6:44 pm

andrew50 wrote:
When we left we were flying AA and took the shuttle bus from the rental car agency, I think AA is the last terminal, the traffic was like being on a freeway during rush hour. It took forever to get dropped off.


I had the same experience in early December. First time in many years of flying into and out of LAX that I've had this happen. For the time being until the people mover opens I guess we just need to allocate about 1 hour to get from the rental car location to the terminals via the rental car shuttle.
 
fiddlerkrt
Posts: 79
Joined: Tue Jun 16, 2015 7:23 am

Re: LA Times: Soon every day at LAX is holiday travel mess

Sat Dec 31, 2016 6:51 pm

LAX772LR wrote:
LAX is as busy as it is, because it's BY FAR the overall most convenient + lowest fare gateway, for the overwhelming majority of the metro.


Agreed.

jsnww81 wrote:
It's noticeably worse than it was two years ago when I moved here. I live ten minutes from the airport entrance, but typically budget 25-30 minutes for transit to/from home. It's a perfect storm of:
- rising passenger numbers
- concentration of large airlines on the south side (this will get rebalanced soon when Delta moves, but will provide minor relief)
- construction (the facade work in front of T1, right at the entrance, took a lane out of service and is apparently NEVER going to finish. What the hell are they doing behind that wall??)
- forcing Uber and Lyft to pick up on the upper level, which has 50% less capacity than the arrivals road, as a concession to LA's miserable taxi drivers
- appallingly aggressive driving by rental car and offsite parking shuttle drivers, who routinely swerve across four lanes of traffic just because they're big enough to do it

I'm an AA frequent flyer, which means I'm frequently stuck at the one terminal that can't be accessed by using any of the "shortcuts." The curve between TBIT and T4 is typically the most congested part of the landside. The people mover will help but is still so far away (2023) that it's going to be a really frustrating couple of years.


Agree with all your good points, particularly the rental car and offsite parking shuttle drivers who are frequently driving mostly empty buses.

intotheair wrote:
And I hate myself for being an Uber customer, but in LA, I really feel like there aren't many other options. Driving myself and parking doesn't save time or money; taking the bus from Union Station wouldn't save time and not all that much money; and it's hard to convince anyone to willingly drop off or pick up someone there.


Yep, I accept the fact when I land at LAX that it will take a minimum of 90 minutes to get home unless someone picks me up and I hate to ask in the first place. The tough part is just getting out of the damn loop especially when arriving at TBIT/T4/T5. I'm hoping the proposed rail development will try to alleviate the sheer volume of people being picked up along the loop.

kaitak744 wrote:
dc10lover wrote:
Unless you are flying international, do NOT fly out of lax. Fly out of the other nearby airports.


This isn't always doable. LAX still has better fares than BUR, LGB, SNA, or ONT. It is located in a central location to most of the L.A. area, and just has far more domestic options.


Agreed- LAX is almost always the cheapest since all the traffic is there in the first place! BUR/SNA have almost no east coast flights other than a B6 red-eye and ONT is too far away.

IMHO, getting to the airport isn't as bad since you know what your departure time is and so you can 'time' things with public transport or arrange an Uber/Supershuttle at a time that works for you. Arrivals are a different story as your flight might get delayed, your plane might have to wait for a gate, etc. etc. etc. and arranging to be picked up becomes much less predictable. Getting from the airport is just a complete nightmare that I don't see improving until they manage to siphon some traffic out of the loop.
 
Cubsrule
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Re: LA Times: Soon every day at LAX is holiday travel mess

Sat Dec 31, 2016 6:54 pm

DfwRevolution wrote:
intotheair wrote:
flyfresno wrote:
75% of the cars clogging the roadway around LAX are Uber or Lyft. The airport really screwed the pooch on this one...there should be shuttles out to a shared lot where patrons can catch their ride. With the 30+ minute waits for a car during peak times, I would think even people who work for and/or take those car services would agree to that. Waiting 5+ years for the train line and new transportation facility to open is unacceptable.


It's amazing how detrimental these $800mn in a quarter loss making corporations have wreaked so much havoc on our public infrastructure. And I hate myself for being an Uber customer, but in LA, I really feel like there aren't many other options. Driving myself and parking doesn't save time or money; taking the bus from Union Station wouldn't save time and not all that much money; and it's hard to convince anyone to willingly drop off or pick up someone there.


Why do you hate a company that provides a useful service? As you noted, Uber and Lyft are often the best value considering time, money, and convenience.

I think you are also vastly overstating the "detriment" of rideshare companies. There's no way 75% of cars at LAX are rideshare. Maybe 5-10%. I exclusively use Uber to get to LAX, and there's rarely more than a dozen people waiting at the pick-up areas even during peak hours. Ratio that against the hundreds of people waiting around at any given moment.


I don't know about "detriment," but Uber and Lyft have vastly changed this frequent LAX visitor's transportation behavior. Most of my business that takes me to LAX is in Torrance or Gardena and I am agnostic about the logistics of car rental versus Uber. Rental car prices have come down a lot (I got a car for less than $100 all in on my last two day trip), and I am renting more cars.

Additionally, I do feel like the arrivals roadway is less congested. I flew WN on my last trip and still was to my hotel in Gardena in less than an hour from door opening and with picking up a rental car. A year or two ago, that was rarely possible even when arriving on AA or DL.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: LA Times: Soon every day at LAX is holiday travel mess

Sat Dec 31, 2016 7:26 pm

intotheair wrote:
It's too bad increased air capacity at BUR and LGB is so politically toxic.

You missed the one that would be the most contributory of all:
If SNA had a "real" airport, then you could probably knock multiple millions out of LAX, and probably shave a good bit off of SAN too.

It'd have service to everywhere in the country, and probably nonstops to the likes of LON/FRA/etc too. The demand is definitely there, the facilities are not.


intotheair wrote:
it's so ridiculous to think that LAX can and should swallow the bulk of the LA basin air traffic.

Uh, why?
That's exactly what it was meant to do.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
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thekorean
Posts: 1796
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Re: LA Times: Soon every day at LAX is holiday travel mess

Sat Dec 31, 2016 7:32 pm

kaitak744 wrote:
That people mover needed to be built 20 years ago...

I have found a big cause of the traffic congestion is all the big busses and shuttles pulling in and out of their curb spaces. If these can all be brought away from the main road, that will be a HUGE improvement.

I think LAX is the only major city airport in the world without a direct mass transit connection.


Boston, LaGuardia.
 
Aptivaboy
Posts: 948
Joined: Fri Jul 15, 2016 3:32 pm

Re: LA Times: Soon every day at LAX is holiday travel mess

Sat Dec 31, 2016 8:17 pm

I flew LAX-OGG on UAL417 two days ago. TSA was much improved compared to the last time I flew through LAX, and I mean much improved. Their facilities had clearly been upgraded. However, that didn't change the fact that the terminal looked old, ancient in some spots. The worst of the collapsing ceiling tiles had been replaced, but you could still see clear evidence of how ancient and in need of a total overhaul the facilities were. The drive in on the shuttle van was quick and easy, with minimal traffic around the airport at 6:30 in the morning.

In terms of the delays, they were certainly there. Departure was listed as 8:40 am, and the cabin crew closed the doors at 8:31, so a very fast and well-done boarding by the UAL gate and cabin crew despite the usual "I'm slow as a turd baking in the sun," customers, and those lugging massive carry ons that really should have been checked baggage. Then, we sat there. And, sat there. The 757 didn't push for 20 minutes, then we taxied for at least another 15 before take off. I'm reasonably sure we hit some wake turbulence a few seconds after rotation from the way the plane rolled and yawed rather violently and suddenly. I wasn't timing takeoffs, but the interval between takeoffs was fairly brief, so the ATC departure folks were probably trying to move as much metal as possible with the minimum clearances and distances allowed.

You missed the one that would be the most contributory of all:
If SNA had a "real" airport, then you could probably knock multiple millions out of LAX, and probably shave a good bit off of SAN too.


Yes, but we NIMBYs don't want a major airport in Orange County. :D :D Perhaps we should, but the general consensus in the county is that it's crowded enough. The freeways are already at breaking point in that El Toro-Irvine-Santa Ana corridor, and any new airport, either an expansion of SNA or the takeover of the old MCAS El Toro from the Great Park project would involve such a massive redo of the freeways that the lawsuits alone over eminent doman and lane widening would doom the project to decades of delays. Now, toss in the noise lawsuits from the very wealthy Newport Beachers, and they can afford legal heavy hitters, and you've got another built in delay. Much as maybe it should happen, it simply won't, so we're stuck with SAN and LAX. Personally, I love ONT and find it convenient and the travel there is usually much better than LAX. I'd really prefer to see ONT expanded. We'd see many more Orange Countians going there for flights if they could, over LAX.

Bob
 
DfwRevolution
Posts: 9306
Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2010 7:31 pm

Re: LA Times: Soon every day at LAX is holiday travel mess

Sat Dec 31, 2016 8:49 pm

flyfresno wrote:
DfwRevolution wrote:
I think you are also vastly overstating the "detriment" of rideshare companies. There's no way 75% of cars at LAX are rideshare. Maybe 5-10%. I exclusively use Uber to get to LAX, and there's rarely more than a dozen people waiting at the pick-up areas even during peak hours. Ratio that against the hundreds of people waiting around at any given moment.


No way. I am at LAX all the time and there are almost always more than 15, usually 30-40 people standing at the ride share area during normal hours (i.e. not at 3am). And counting rideshade cars passing me last night on the curb, there were over 100 in a period of 10 minutes; I counted 21 cars without a logo and another 37 busses/shuttles. They ARE the majority of the cars on the roadway at LAX.


I'm certainly open to being corrected if there is actual traffic statistics available from LAWA. I have observed 30-40 people waiting for an Uber on some days, and then I've observed 3-4 people waiting on other days. I traveled through LAX about 10 times in the last 6 months and I'd put the general average - that I have observed - at around 12 people. Keep in mind, 85% of Americans have never used Uber or Lyft once in their life.
I have a three post per topic limit. You're welcome to have the last word.
 
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jsnww81
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Re: LA Times: Soon every day at LAX is holiday travel mess

Sat Dec 31, 2016 9:09 pm

Yes, but we NIMBYs don't want a major airport in Orange County. :D :D Perhaps we should, but the general consensus in the county is that it's crowded enough. The freeways are already at breaking point in that El Toro-Irvine-Santa Ana corridor, and any new airport, either an expansion of SNA or the takeover of the old MCAS El Toro from the Great Park project would involve such a massive redo of the freeways that the lawsuits alone over eminent doman and lane widening would doom the project to decades of delays. Now, toss in the noise lawsuits from the very wealthy Newport Beachers, and they can afford legal heavy hitters, and you've got another built in delay. Much as maybe it should happen, it simply won't, so we're stuck with SAN and LAX.


The wealthy Newport Beachers should have been out cheering for El Toro, as it would have meant an end to takeoffs over their homes from SNA. The planes would be going over Laguna Hills and Aliso Viejo instead.

The failure to develop El Toro into a second major airport for the region is probably the biggest infrastructure failure in Southern California in the last half-century. The "Great Park" project is a joke and SNA is flat out of room. The whole region is growing on the back of transport infrastructure designed in the 1950s - the last time there was any visionary planning in the US. So yes, we're stuck with the mess at LAX, constricted operations at BUR/LGB/SNA, and far-off unloved ONT. And let's not even get started on SAN...
 
grbauc
Posts: 1469
Joined: Sat Mar 28, 2015 9:05 pm

Re: LA Times: Soon every day at LAX is holiday travel mess

Sat Dec 31, 2016 10:02 pm

flyfresno wrote:
75% of the cars clogging the roadway around LAX are Uber or Lyft. The airport really screwed the pooch on this one...there should be shuttles out to a shared lot where patrons can catch their ride. With the 30+ minute waits for a car during peak times, I would think even people who work for and/or take those car services would agree to that. Waiting 5+ years for the train line and new transportation facility to open is unacceptable.


75% really are there numbers for that figure?

The central parking structures need to be demolished and a remote drop off pick up established. I think LAX is headed in the right direction but it's 20yrs to late.

Fiscally I'm conservative in my politics but in the case of infrastructure I'm all for improvements. I hope trumps infrastructure plan is more effective then current presidents. A lot of freeway projects I thought would never get started and finished did happen. Time for some airport and bridge love.
 
grbauc
Posts: 1469
Joined: Sat Mar 28, 2015 9:05 pm

Re: LA Times: Soon every day at LAX is holiday travel mess

Sat Dec 31, 2016 10:06 pm

Aptivaboy wrote:
I flew LAX-OGG on UAL417 two days ago. TSA was much improved compared to the last time I flew through LAX, and I mean much improved. Their facilities had clearly been upgraded. However, that didn't change the fact that the terminal looked old, ancient in some spots. The worst of the collapsing ceiling tiles had been replaced, but you could still see clear evidence of how ancient and in need of a total overhaul the facilities were. The drive in on the shuttle van was quick and easy, with minimal traffic around the airport at 6:30 in the morning.

In terms of the delays, they were certainly there. Departure was listed as 8:40 am, and the cabin crew closed the doors at 8:31, so a very fast and well-done boarding by the UAL gate and cabin crew despite the usual "I'm slow as a turd baking in the sun," customers, and those lugging massive carry ons that really should have been checked baggage. Then, we sat there. And, sat there. The 757 didn't push for 20 minutes, then we taxied for at least another 15 before take off. I'm reasonably sure we hit some wake turbulence a few seconds after rotation from the way the plane rolled and yawed rather violently and suddenly. I wasn't timing takeoffs, but the interval between takeoffs was fairly brief, so the ATC departure folks were probably trying to move as much metal as possible with the minimum clearances and distances allowed.

You missed the one that would be the most contributory of all:
If SNA had a "real" airport, then you could probably knock multiple millions out of LAX, and probably shave a good bit off of SAN too.


Yes, but we NIMBYs don't want a major airport in Orange County. :D :D Perhaps we should, but the general consensus in the county is that it's crowded enough. The freeways are already at breaking point in that El Toro-Irvine-Santa Ana corridor, and any new airport, either an expansion of SNA or the takeover of the old MCAS El Toro from the Great Park project would involve such a massive redo of the freeways that the lawsuits alone over eminent doman and lane widening would doom the project to decades of delays. Now, toss in the noise lawsuits from the very wealthy Newport Beachers, and they can afford legal heavy hitters, and you've got another built in delay. Much as maybe it should happen, it simply won't, so we're stuck with SAN and LAX. Personally, I love ONT and find it convenient and the travel there is usually much better than LAX. I'd really prefer to see ONT expanded. We'd see many more Orange Countians going there for flights if they could, over LAX.

Bob


This typical not in my back yard additude is rampant.
 
grbauc
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Joined: Sat Mar 28, 2015 9:05 pm

Re: LA Times: Soon every day at LAX is holiday travel mess

Sat Dec 31, 2016 10:08 pm

jsnww81 wrote:
Yes, but we NIMBYs don't want a major airport in Orange County. :D :D Perhaps we should, but the general consensus in the county is that it's crowded enough. The freeways are already at breaking point in that El Toro-Irvine-Santa Ana corridor, and any new airport, either an expansion of SNA or the takeover of the old MCAS El Toro from the Great Park project would involve such a massive redo of the freeways that the lawsuits alone over eminent doman and lane widening would doom the project to decades of delays. Now, toss in the noise lawsuits from the very wealthy Newport Beachers, and they can afford legal heavy hitters, and you've got another built in delay. Much as maybe it should happen, it simply won't, so we're stuck with SAN and LAX.


The wealthy Newport Beachers should have been out cheering for El Toro, as it would have meant an end to takeoffs over their homes from SNA. The planes would be going over Laguna Hills and Aliso Viejo instead.

The failure to develop El Toro into a second major airport for the region is probably the biggest infrastructure failure in Southern California in the last half-century. The "Great Park" project is a joke and SNA is flat out of room. The whole region is growing on the back of transport infrastructure designed in the 1950s - the last time there was any visionary planning in the US. So yes, we're stuck with the mess at LAX, constricted operations at BUR/LGB/SNA, and far-off unloved ONT. And let's not even get started on SAN...


Yep they voted for a park and got housing development instead lol.
 
JHwk
Posts: 577
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Re: LA Times: Soon every day at LAX is holiday travel mess

Sat Dec 31, 2016 10:22 pm

Agree that the central parking needs to be eliminated, and there needs to be a off-site drop off (along with a $3 fee for cars and $10 for vans transiting the loop. Demolishing the central parking would make construction of the APM so much easier and faster...

Also wish there was a way to have a drop-off on WorldWayWest until the APM is completed. Do baggage check/screening and passenger screening for maybe 30-50,000 passengers per day and an airside shuttle bus to all the terminals. Maybe simplify it down to carry-on bags only and let it handle twice as many people.
 
Aptivaboy
Posts: 948
Joined: Fri Jul 15, 2016 3:32 pm

Re: LA Times: Soon every day at LAX is holiday travel mess

Sat Dec 31, 2016 10:39 pm

This typical not in my back yard additude is rampant.


I totally agree, but you have to understand why it exists. We AvGeeks often fixate on what we think should happen without understanding the underlying political and social issues. Many, many people moved to Orange County, and especially South Orange County, to retire or to raise their kids in a nice, clean environment. Having a major airport in such close proximity would negatively affect what so many people scrimped and saved for so long to purchase, destroying property values and generating any number of significant negative externalities. I already live under one of SNA's approach paths, and while I love the sound of jet engines in the morning, most people don't. I couldn't imagine what it would be like for residents in Laguna Niguel or Aliso Viejo, many of whom also command big bucks and could mount serious legal challenges. For the record, I work in Aliso Viejo, and having large planes on final right overhead would be hard on what is essentially a bedroom community, in many respects. And, the freeway issues that I mentioned earlier would still exist. North of Lake Forest you could expand the freeways by a lane, and through some parts of Irvine, but that's about it. Good luck moving through the Orange Crush were a major airport at the former MCAS El Toro.

A total reworking of LAX combined with expanding ONT, which the folks at ONT and the Inland Empire want to do, would solve most problems. That's the easiest and probably the most cost conscious solution, at this point in time. There will be no new airport in Orange County. That's just the reality of the situation, plain and simple.

Bob
Last edited by Aptivaboy on Sat Dec 31, 2016 10:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
grbauc
Posts: 1469
Joined: Sat Mar 28, 2015 9:05 pm

Re: LA Times: Soon every day at LAX is holiday travel mess

Sat Dec 31, 2016 10:41 pm

Southwest moved its hub at ONt to lax and that has added to the increased flow along with the majors consolidating most of there flights to lax.

I wonder if ont could offer one of the big airlines a deal to hub at ont by offering major discounts that increase has destinations and capacity increase. Ont needs some outside the box thinking
 
Aptivaboy
Posts: 948
Joined: Fri Jul 15, 2016 3:32 pm

Re: LA Times: Soon every day at LAX is holiday travel mess

Sat Dec 31, 2016 10:46 pm

That could be. I used to fly ONT-CLE several times a year back in the day, usually with a stop in Houston or DFW. It was so convenient and easy, too. Oh, and I loved the open air gates with outdoor seating, so retro. I miss those days.

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