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lightsaber
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Re: Airbus A320 Space flex, passenger / crew push back

Mon Jan 02, 2017 11:50 pm

Theseus wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
Passengers love to complain, but not pay for what they are complaining about. When there is buy away due to a poor lavatory. The ULCCs will sell the space as passengers want.


I agree with all you say, but I think things are not so simple in the passengers side: do passengers really have the choice ?

I can choose not to fly ULCCs, but it seems LH is adopting this galley configuration, so not really an ULCC... When the majority of passengers do not care (because they look only at price, or travel rarely, or do not know where to look for the info on seat size and such) the equilibrium tends to shift towards the cheapest, least comfortable solution, and after a while the choice is not even there anymore for whoever is still ready to pay a bit more.
I experienced this change in my home airport for some other cabin arrangements that I cannot stand (I will not pronounce the name as this would derail the thread), and in a matter of less than a decade the choices for passengers went from "comfortable solution by default for all airline choices, with a few offering the cheaper, less nice option" to "some airlines compress passengers while others still offer the comfortable solution" and finally to "all reasonable flights (even with a significant detour) feature the less comfortable option, on most routes". Essentially, if 25% of the passengers care for comfort and 75% for price, no airline will stick to the more costly, more comfortable option, as it would immediately cause them to lose 75% of the market, and make them even more expensive.

But those 26% will be in the front cabin with access to a conventional lav


The reality is if 75% of the market chooses cheap, they will get cheap.

I fly JetBlue as they offer great space for the price. I buy the checked bag. I buy snacks in flight. Occasionally I buy even more space. That ensures that there is the option. But I also never fly short haul anymore as between parking, TSA, and rental cars, driving is faster. Cest la vie


Lightsaber
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zkncj
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Re: Airbus A320 Space flex, passenger / crew push back

Tue Jan 03, 2017 1:10 am

lightsaber wrote:
But those 26% will be in the front cabin with access to a conventional lav
The reality is if 75% of the market chooses cheap, they will get cheap.


Anyone that is used the forward lav on a 737 or A320 will know these aren't standard size, and if anything more leaning towards an spaceflex size. You can barely standup in an forward lav on a 737.
 
PlanesNTrains
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Re: Airbus A320 Space flex, passenger / crew push back

Tue Jan 03, 2017 5:53 am

Aesma wrote:
I mostly fly short and medium haul and have used an airline lavatory maybe two or three times. When I look at the central lavatory in the first picture, well, there is no way I can do my business there, the toilet on my father's small sailboat looks bigger.


I have the same problem on airplanes that I have at movie theaters: The moment I sit down, I have to go to the bathroom, and within a couple of hours it's almost like I've consumed a gallon of water or something. Must be a mental thing, but it's to the point that when I go to the movies I don't drink anything before I get there and I don't buy a drink. haha On airplanes I try to only use the restroom once, and only if the aisle person is getting up or otherwise not bothered by my trip.

A few years back I had an early morning WN flight SEASMF and I was the only person in my row. I think I used the restroom five times - just because I could, but also because I needed to.

Might be time for a visit to a shrink. :-)
-Dave


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Re: Airbus A320 Space flex, passenger / crew push back

Tue Jan 03, 2017 5:56 am

MPadhi wrote:
Flaps wrote:
global2 wrote:
And on those overnight flights, I like to take my contact lenses out for (an attempt at) sleeping. The loss of counter space in the lav. now makes that much more difficult as I don't particularly care to use the toilet lid as a counter when handling contact lenses.


Seriously? This is an issue? If you can't remove and insert your contacts while at your seat you're doing it wrong.


You're supposed to wash your hands before handling contacts; especially if they're not daily disposable ones, so not doing it in a toilet can be impractical. And before anyone suggests using an an alcohol hand gel - they burn!


Exactly, and thank you !!!
 
Planesmart
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Re: Airbus A320 Space flex, passenger / crew push back

Tue Jan 03, 2017 7:42 am

PlanesNTrains wrote:
I have the same problem on airplanes that I have at movie theaters: The moment I sit down, I have to go to the bathroom, and within a couple of hours it's almost like I've consumed a gallon of water or something. Must be a mental thing, but it's to the point that when I go to the movies I don't drink anything before I get there and I don't buy a drink. haha On airplanes I try to only use the restroom once, and only if the aisle person is getting up or otherwise not bothered by my trip.

A few years back I had an early morning WN flight SEASMF and I was the only person in my row. I think I used the restroom five times - just because I could, but also because I needed to.

Might be time for a visit to a shrink. :-)

Gets worse when you reach old age.
 
PlanesNTrains
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Re: Airbus A320 Space flex, passenger / crew push back

Tue Jan 03, 2017 7:53 am

Planesmart wrote:
PlanesNTrains wrote:
I have the same problem on airplanes that I have at movie theaters: The moment I sit down, I have to go to the bathroom, and within a couple of hours it's almost like I've consumed a gallon of water or something. Must be a mental thing, but it's to the point that when I go to the movies I don't drink anything before I get there and I don't buy a drink. haha On airplanes I try to only use the restroom once, and only if the aisle person is getting up or otherwise not bothered by my trip.

A few years back I had an early morning WN flight SEASMF and I was the only person in my row. I think I used the restroom five times - just because I could, but also because I needed to.

Might be time for a visit to a shrink. :-)

Gets worse when you reach old age.


"Never thought I'd be a grumpy old man, but here I am killing it."
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
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Re: Airbus A320 Space flex, passenger / crew push back

Tue Jan 03, 2017 8:05 am

Newbiepilot wrote:

Ryanair will be using this for the MAX200 I hear
Image


Why the bulge above the seat's headrest? This must be particularly uncomfortable for tall people.
You may like my airport photos:
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LionelHutz
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Re: Airbus A320 Space flex, passenger / crew push back

Tue Jan 03, 2017 8:49 am

Theseus wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
Passengers love to complain, but not pay for what they are complaining about. When there is buy away due to a poor lavatory. The ULCCs will sell the space as passengers want.


I agree with all you say, but I think things are not so simple in the passengers side: do passengers really have the choice ?

I can choose not to fly ULCCs, but it seems LH is adopting this galley configuration, so not really an ULCC... When the majority of passengers do not care (because they look only at price, or travel rarely, or do not know where to look for the info on seat size and such) the equilibrium tends to shift towards the cheapest, least comfortable solution, and after a while the choice is not even there anymore for whoever is still ready to pay a bit more.
I experienced this change in my home airport for some other cabin arrangements that I cannot stand (I will not pronounce the name as this would derail the thread), and in a matter of less than a decade the choices for passengers went from "comfortable solution by default for all airline choices, with a few offering the cheaper, less nice option" to "some airlines compress passengers while others still offer the comfortable solution" and finally to "all reasonable flights (even with a significant detour) feature the less comfortable option, on most routes". Essentially, if 25% of the passengers care for comfort and 75% for price, no airline will stick to the more costly, more comfortable option, as it would immediately cause them to lose 75% of the market, and make them even more expensive.


Exactly. Now we're all stuck with a worse and worse travel experience it if we want to (or have to) travel in Y. :banghead:
The majority of pax either don't care, can't afford it, or are too lazy/ignorant/passive and just buy the cheapest fare. Result = economy travel is (generally) crap.

I regularly have to fly Jetstar Asia from Darwin to Singapore and it amazes me for a four and a half hour flight how few people will even shell out $30 for extra legroom :confused:
Result = I regularly get a whole row to myself :biggrin:

If you genuinely don't care about, or can't afford it, fair enough, but it really surprises me what people will tolerate to save a few bucks.
 
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Re: Airbus A320 Space flex, passenger / crew push back

Tue Jan 03, 2017 12:48 pm

global2 wrote:
MPadhi wrote:
Flaps wrote:

Seriously? This is an issue? If you can't remove and insert your contacts while at your seat you're doing it wrong.


You're supposed to wash your hands before handling contacts; especially if they're not daily disposable ones, so not doing it in a toilet can be impractical. And before anyone suggests using an an alcohol hand gel - they burn!


Exactly, and thank you !!!


I'm guessing this must be using soft contacts... I had semi-permeable ("hard") lenses and only used my fingers in emergencies - when there was something like an eyelash under it. For most occasions I had a little rubber sucker thing which meant I never had to touch them. This was after I used my fingers on my first pair (as a teenager) and ended up scratching them to pieces from my nails.

Is there no applicator for soft lenses?
"As with most things related to aircraft design, it's all about the trade-offs and much more nuanced than A.net likes to make out."
 
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Re: Airbus A320 Space flex, passenger / crew push back

Tue Jan 03, 2017 1:10 pm

zkncj wrote:
airbazar wrote:
I can't remember the last time I flew a domestic or inter-Europe flight where there was any sort of onboard meal service in Y so why is a galley and galley space even required? Just hand in a bottle of water to every passenger as they enter the plane and call it done. Can't people spend 2 hours of their day without drinking a cup of coffee or sugar drink? Same goes for using the lav. It should be for "emergencies" only so I have no problem with the smaller size. Just wait until you land.


Galleys house important space for Buy on Board Products, which earn the airline extra revenue while the bathrooms are an expense to the airline. An Tea/Coffee service on an typically A320 service only takes up one trolley space, along with an either a couple of brewing machines or hot water taps. Depending on airline it also houses other equipment e.g. first aid kids, cleaning supplies etc.

But if no one buys on board, airlines will discontinue it. That's my point. Do people really need to buy anything at all on a 2 hour flight? Heck, I won't even buy on a 6 hour flight if it's not included. Eat/drink before or after you get on the plane. It's not a restaurant. If people really need those services on a short haul flight, upgrade. I don't want to pay for someone else's bad habits.

It's the same argument about srinking pitch, and paying for luggage. I don't need the onboard food and drinks but my ticket is nevertheless paying for a galley, not to mention my elbows being smashed by a food cart.

Yes i understand that there are longer segments, but it's up to the airlines to schedule a different aircraft for the longer segments.

You do know its common to use an 320/738 on 3-5hour sectors over water? e.g. Intl Flights

Yes I do. Isn't that why I said "Yes i understand that there are longer segments, but it's up to the airlines to schedule a different aircraft"
In other words, on longer segments airlines should schedule a plane with proper galleys and toilets.
Last edited by airbazar on Tue Jan 03, 2017 1:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
airbazar
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Re: Airbus A320 Space flex, passenger / crew push back

Tue Jan 03, 2017 1:11 pm

zkncj wrote:
airbazar wrote:
I can't remember the last time I flew a domestic or inter-Europe flight where there was any sort of onboard meal service in Y so why is a galley and galley space even required? Just hand in a bottle of water to every passenger as they enter the plane and call it done. Can't people spend 2 hours of their day without drinking a cup of coffee or sugar drink? Same goes for using the lav. It should be for "emergencies" only so I have no problem with the smaller size. Just wait until you land.


Galleys house important space for Buy on Board Products, which earn the airline extra revenue while the bathrooms are an expense to the airline. An Tea/Coffee service on an typically A320 service only takes up one trolley space, along with an either a couple of brewing machines or hot water taps. Depending on airline it also houses other equipment e.g. first aid kids, cleaning supplies etc.

But if no one buys on board, airlines will discontinue it. That's my point. Do people really need to buy anything at all on a 2 hour flight? Heck, I won't even buy on a 6 hour flight if it's not included. Eat/drink before or after you get on the plane. It's not a restaurant. If people really need those services on a short haul flight, upgrade. I don't want to pay for someone else's bad habits.

It's the same argument about the shrinking pitch, and paying for luggage. I don't need the onboard food and drinks but my ticket is nevertheless paying for a galley, not to mention my elbows being smashed by a food cart.

Yes i understand that there are longer segments, but it's up to the airlines to schedule a different aircraft for the longer segments.

You do know its common to use an 320/738 on 3-5hour sectors over water? e.g. Intl Flights

Yes I do. Isn't that why I said "Yes i understand that there are longer segments, but it's up to the airlines to schedule a different aircraft"
In other words, on longer segments airlines should schedule a plane with proper galleys and toilets.
 
SaschaYHZ
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Re: Airbus A320 Space flex, passenger / crew push back

Tue Jan 03, 2017 1:46 pm

keesje wrote:
Maybe airlines should compromise on the A320 series and settle for a Spaceflex v4:

- bigger lavatories for passengers
- better lavatory access (for disabled),
- a better, separated working area for crew
- extra galley capacity (cards, inserts, stowage)
- additional revenue seats compared to standard A320 configuration

Image



This one seems, imo, to be the best all around compromise. (AKA it's the one I like best ;) )
 
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Re: Airbus A320 Space flex, passenger / crew push back

Tue Jan 03, 2017 3:27 pm

SomebodyInTLS wrote:
global2 wrote:
MPadhi wrote:

You're supposed to wash your hands before handling contacts; especially if they're not daily disposable ones, so not doing it in a toilet can be impractical. And before anyone suggests using an an alcohol hand gel - they burn!


Exactly, and thank you !!!


I'm guessing this must be using soft contacts... I had semi-permeable ("hard") lenses and only used my fingers in emergencies - when there was something like an eyelash under it. For most occasions I had a little rubber sucker thing which meant I never had to touch them. This was after I used my fingers on my first pair (as a teenager) and ended up scratching them to pieces from my nails.

Is there no applicator for soft lenses?


I didn't know such a thing as hard lenses existed! :o

And no, you use your fingers only for soft lenses.
 
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Re: Airbus A320 Space flex, passenger / crew push back

Tue Jan 03, 2017 4:27 pm

SwissCanuck wrote:
easyJet has these 320s now. Disaster. I could barely fit in the lav...


As a matter of reference, and if you don't mind - how tall are you? I agree with you entirely, I just wonder how this move will affect the 'average' flier, especially when we are becoming taller, on average. Being 'taller' myself, I am trying to gauge how nightmarish the experience may be (and, yet another 'pleasure' of modern aviation).
 
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Re: Airbus A320 Space flex, passenger / crew push back

Tue Jan 03, 2017 4:33 pm

MBSDALHOU wrote:
As someone who is 6'5" and 180lbs I had a hell of a time squeezing into the space saver lavs!! I almost got stuck during a sudden bout of turbulence and I felt like a dice in a Yahtzee cup! I can only imagine how someone who is slightly heavier might feel. Whatever happened the glory days of flying?!


I am so sorry, but that is the funniest comparison I have ever read!
 
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Rajahdhani
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Re: Airbus A320 Space flex, passenger / crew push back

Tue Jan 03, 2017 4:40 pm

Thank Goodness that I am not yet one, but how do parents deal with this? I mean, the loo looks large enough for 1, but barely. How is a diaper change done there (where mobility is a not a premium, but a necessity)? Or, what about the little humans who need parental assistance? I can perhaps, understand 'doubling' the bathroom, as will be done with mobility limited other passengers, but it sure does seem a bother to have to do that, often. I am sure that the crew would love the additional responsibility.
 
Theseus
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Re: Airbus A320 Space flex, passenger / crew push back

Tue Jan 03, 2017 9:56 pm

lightsaber wrote:
But those 26% will be in the front cabin with access to a conventional lav

The reality is if 75% of the market chooses cheap, they will get cheap.


Again, I think this is a bit an over-generalization.

First, many people do not have a choice of their travel class, in particular for those who travel for work. There is no way I could do all my work trips in J, or even Y+, and I have a not so low position in my organization.

Second, when a race to the bottom takes place, from my observation, the choices are:
(1) pay a slightly lower price than before (if not the same actually) and live with deteriorating comfort and service
or,
(2) pay 2x or 3x as much as before to go up one class, and experience much better comfort than before (to an extent you may not really need).
The choice "pay the same or a bit more (say +10% or even 20%) to keep the same comfort" is rarely there...
 
airbazar
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Re: Airbus A320 Space flex, passenger / crew push back

Wed Jan 04, 2017 1:23 am

Rajahdhani wrote:
Thank Goodness that I am not yet one, but how do parents deal with this?

You might be shocked to learn that small kids can make a short haul trip without needing a diaper change. I am a parent. My son took his first TATL trip when he was only 3 months old. And we flew a lot prior to him entering school. I don't remember ever having to change his diaper on a plane. When you become a parent you quickly learn to book airplane tickets around your kid's "biological clock" :) Nap times and feeding times all factor into the calculations to avoid meltdowns. Whenever I see a kid having a meltdown on a plane, it almost always is the fault of the parent for not scheduling an appropriate flight time.
 
N353SK
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Re: Airbus A320 Space flex, passenger / crew push back

Wed Jan 04, 2017 1:57 am

Rajahdhani wrote:
SwissCanuck wrote:
easyJet has these 320s now. Disaster. I could barely fit in the lav...


As a matter of reference, and if you don't mind - how tall are you? I agree with you entirely, I just wonder how this move will affect the 'average' flier, especially when we are becoming taller, on average. Being 'taller' myself, I am trying to gauge how nightmarish the experience may be (and, yet another 'pleasure' of modern aviation).


I'm 6'4" and the forward lav is a bit tough to stand in due to fuselage curvature, but I don't remember older Airbuses being any better. The "central" aft lav was narrow but I could stand up just fine.
 
cschleic
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Re: Airbus A320 Space flex, passenger / crew push back

Wed Jan 04, 2017 2:34 am

YVRing wrote:
How about a normal sized lav I can pay to use :) Just tap my credit card on the card reader outside and the door unlocks. Tap when I leave and I pay based on the time inside. Cuts down on lines and incentivizes airlines to leave an option for larger people.


Do you mean as an option along with a smaller one? The result is kind of predictable....people would hog it as long as possible to get their own little cabin and play video games on their phone, regardless of cost, never mind that it could cost more than an F seat. So the airline would limit time which would create another problem.....an issue for someone, shall we say, who needs to be in there for an extended period of time. Sure it could cost more the F, but people probably would think they're beating the system, even if really not. Human psychology really is screwy.

I'd happily pay 20% more for 20% more space. It's the paying 400% more for 50% more space that doesn't compute.
 
PlanesNTrains
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Re: Airbus A320 Space flex, passenger / crew push back

Wed Jan 04, 2017 7:09 am

LionelHutz wrote:
I regularly have to fly Jetstar Asia from Darwin to Singapore and it amazes me for a four and a half hour flight how few people will even shell out $30 for extra legroom :confused:
Result = I regularly get a whole row to myself :biggrin:

If you genuinely don't care about, or can't afford it, fair enough, but it really surprises me what people will tolerate to save a few bucks.


1. $30 for 4 hours of more comfort, or $30 for 24 hours of a rental car, or $30 for dinner after landing? Depends on priorities and budgeting I guess.

2. To the person who comments on why people can't last without eating - I guess 6-8 hours sitting in a chair staring at a screen should be satisfaction enough, but some of us do like to eat or drink something now and again. You like a window seat. I like a fruit and cheese plate. Someone else likes a margarita. Can't we all just get along?
-Dave


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Re: Airbus A320 Space flex, passenger / crew push back

Wed Jan 04, 2017 2:58 pm

airbazar wrote:
Rajahdhani wrote:
Thank Goodness that I am not yet one, but how do parents deal with this?

You might be shocked to learn that small kids can make a short haul trip without needing a diaper change. I am a parent. My son took his first TATL trip when he was only 3 months old. And we flew a lot prior to him entering school. I don't remember ever having to change his diaper on a plane. When you become a parent you quickly learn to book airplane tickets around your kid's "biological clocdk" :) Nap times and feeding times all factor into the calculations to avoid meltdowns. Whenever I see a kid having a meltdown on a plane, it almost always is the fault of the parent for not scheduling an appropriate flight time.

I've changed many diapers on planes. While I agree the meltdown is poor parental planning, but my kids didn't poop on a clock. It was twice a day 4 to ten hours apart. Nap and feeding times are predictable. But add in time changes and it is tougher.

I took a 3 hour flight on Westjet and at least 8 other parents changed diapers. I had to twice.

But the little table above the lav works great.

To all:
I personally do not understand all the complaints on a thin lav. I'd rather have a cheaper ticket enabled by the extra seats.

Lightsaber
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JoeCanuck
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Re: Airbus A320 Space flex, passenger / crew push back

Wed Jan 04, 2017 3:37 pm

When traveling by air, I watch what I eat the day before, keeping to mainly smaller protein meals, get up early enough to take care of business at home and pop a couple of immodium to shut things down for the duration of the flight.

While I do drink a lot of water to stay hydrated, the consequences of that are not an issue in an airliner facility.

There are lots of things I like about flying but sitting in an airliner toilet isn't one of them.
What the...?
 
Planesmart
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Re: Airbus A320 Space flex, passenger / crew push back

Wed Jan 04, 2017 7:50 pm

lightsaber wrote:
I took a 3 hour flight on Westjet and at least 8 other parents changed diapers. I had to twice.

But the little table above the lav works great.

How would you have got on with the proposed, even slimmer, smaller toilet cubicles, which don't include a changing table? Or on a 5 hour flight?
 
glbltrvlr
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Re: Airbus A320 Space flex, passenger / crew push back

Wed Jan 04, 2017 8:38 pm

Wow - that's the row from hell. Three seats against a vacuum flush?
 
glbltrvlr
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Re: Airbus A320 Space flex, passenger / crew push back

Wed Jan 04, 2017 8:40 pm

lightsaber wrote:
I personally do not understand all the complaints on a thin lav. I'd rather have a cheaper ticket enabled by the extra seats.


Unfortunately, it doesn't seem to work that way. Those seats get sold at today's prices and if you want something better, you pay more.
 
Swadian
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Re: Airbus A320 Space flex, passenger / crew push back

Wed Jan 04, 2017 9:06 pm

So, which airlines are actually using these?
 
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keesje
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Re: Airbus A320 Space flex, passenger / crew push back

Thu Jan 05, 2017 10:49 am

I think in most cases the sad reality you/your boss pays a lot for an economy seat and you get an increasingly smaller seat and smaller lavatory. The slim seats are there to put in more seats, not improve leg space. You are not told in advance and no rights. We are just sheep, each individual feels he can do nothing but accept. Airlines benefit from and increase in-transperency.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Airbus A320 Space flex, passenger / crew push back

Thu Jan 05, 2017 10:55 am

Planesmart wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
I took a 3 hour flight on Westjet and at least 8 other parents changed diapers. I had to twice.

But the little table above the lav works great.

How would you have got on with the proposed, even slimmer, smaller toilet cubicles, which don't include a changing table? Or on a 5 hour flight?

There is a changing table for v2. As long as there is one per flight, I could have managed (children long out of diapers now).

Lightsaber
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WIederling
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Re: Airbus A320 Space flex, passenger / crew push back

Thu Jan 05, 2017 11:04 am

SaschaYHZ wrote:
This one seems, imo, to be the best all around compromise. (AKA it's the one I like best ;) )


What I wondered:
If you have the lav/toilet adjacent to an exit: Would it be possible to
add the exit door area to the facility via movable walls/doors to
expand available moving space?

I've seen this on some caravans, campers and in (marine)yachts.
Murphy is an optimist
 
debonair
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Re: Airbus A320 Space flex, passenger / crew push back

Thu Jan 05, 2017 11:29 am

keesje wrote:
Maybe airlines should compromise on the A320 series and settle for a Spaceflex v4


The BIGGEST concern is the location of the galley on the port and the toilets on the starboard side... Catering is no longer possible during boarding/disembarkation, let alone service preparations by the crew.
It seems that LH is the only carrier with this layout - any idea why?! All other carrier (like U2) seems to have adopt the traditional design, starboard galley, port toilets...
 
vrbarreto
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Re: Airbus A320 Space flex, passenger / crew push back

Thu Jan 05, 2017 12:00 pm

How are you expected to join the 'Mile High Club' in one of those? :crowded:
 
Noshow
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Re: Airbus A320 Space flex, passenger / crew push back

Thu Jan 05, 2017 12:07 pm

I dislike the concept to have restrooms and galley right beside each other. What happened to basic hygiene and style? Makes you feel like better eating after the flight.
It's still impressive that handicapped people can use the lavs on some small wheelchair and that both lavs can be connected if somebody needs assistance. But please move the galley away.
 
ual777newpaint
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Re: Airbus A320 Space flex, passenger / crew push back

Thu Jan 05, 2017 1:35 pm

VCEflyboy wrote:
The two toilets have to be adjacent because combined they are accessible by disabled passengers.


This is only the case on Spaceflex v1. Spaceflex v2 (which I know to be used by DL, not sure about any other carriers) does not offer this swinging partition between the two lavs.

See here:
https://runwaygirlnetwork.com/2015/08/1 ... ey-option/
Space-Flex v2 does offer a single American with Disabilities Act (ADA)-compliant lavatory, which is a positive feature for a narrowbody aircraft. But unlike Space-Flex v1 – which features a swinging partition between two lavatories to accommodate passengers with reduced mobility – Space-Flex v2’s lavatories have a fixed partition, and a wheelchair-bound passenger must transfer to a tip-up seat and then, unassisted, to the toilet seat.
318 319 320 320N 321 333 343 346 359 717 727 732 733 734 735 73G 738 739 739ER 744 752 753 762 763 76E 764 77A 77E 773 789 CRJ CR7 CR9 E45 E70 E75 E90 F50 F70 MD88 MD90 DL UA WN B6 TK US U2 KL EQ MU SK GK VY AF AM KE XL KN CZ VS 3U CM CA 7P SC
 
oldannyboy
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Re: Airbus A320 Space flex, passenger / crew push back

Thu Jan 05, 2017 1:43 pm

Might be time for a visit to a shrink. :-)

[/quote]

..time to see a urologist, maybe? ;-)
 
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Rajahdhani
Posts: 565
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Re: Airbus A320 Space flex, passenger / crew push back

Thu Jan 05, 2017 2:39 pm

airbazar wrote:
Rajahdhani wrote:
Thank Goodness that I am not yet one, but how do parents deal with this?

You might be shocked to learn that small kids can make a short haul trip without needing a diaper change. I am a parent. My son took his first TATL trip when he was only 3 months old. And we flew a lot prior to him entering school. I don't remember ever having to change his diaper on a plane. When you become a parent you quickly learn to book airplane tickets around your kid's "biological clock" :) Nap times and feeding times all factor into the calculations to avoid meltdowns. Whenever I see a kid having a meltdown on a plane, it almost always is the fault of the parent for not scheduling an appropriate flight time.


I needed a drink, to get through the thought of that. I am not even the responsible enough now - and I'm only basically responsible for myself. However, I understand your point. God Bless your ability to manage the family/situation as such, and kudos to you. You're right - good planning is key. That said, I see the cost-cutting affecting all carriers, and I can see families being more sensative to price than others (as they are burdened with a higher cost overall) and having to rely on these services. Again, kudos to you, and your kids - but I won't hold it against any parent/child that has a 'meltdown', and if they do - I think that having the space to deal with it, is key. Hope for the best, plan for the worst.
 
frmrCapCadet
Posts: 4221
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Re: Airbus A320 Space flex, passenger / crew push back

Thu Jan 05, 2017 2:45 pm

I have mentioned before, most people would like to buy what they want. It is not possible on airlines. When I choose a motel I want 3 star amenities, don't need more, and I am uncomfortable with less. WN provides what I consider 3 star service, not many amenities but well delivered. Most airlines Y service is one and two stars, and only if the 'astrology' is right do they get up to 3, and sometimes perchance 4.

I cannot on Airlines web sites, nor on Orbitz or other sites order up a well delivered 3 star flight. If I could I would fly a hell of a lot more, might even sell my boat and become a traveler again. While I have not flown Asian airliners recently they almost always were 3 star. I could tolerate a two star on a flight less than 3 hours, but the ground service needs to be decent.
Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
 
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Rajahdhani
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Re: Airbus A320 Space flex, passenger / crew push back

Thu Jan 05, 2017 3:06 pm

lightsaber wrote:
airbazar wrote:
Rajahdhani wrote:
Thank Goodness that I am not yet one, but how do parents deal with this?

You might be shocked to learn that small kids can make a short haul trip without needing a diaper change. I am a parent. My son took his first TATL trip when he was only 3 months old. And we flew a lot prior to him entering school. I don't remember ever having to change his diaper on a plane. When you become a parent you quickly learn to book airplane tickets around your kid's "biological clocdk" :) Nap times and feeding times all factor into the calculations to avoid meltdowns. Whenever I see a kid having a meltdown on a plane, it almost always is the fault of the parent for not scheduling an appropriate flight time.

I've changed many diapers on planes. While I agree the meltdown is poor parental planning, but my kids didn't poop on a clock. It was twice a day 4 to ten hours apart. Nap and feeding times are predictable. But add in time changes and it is tougher.

I took a 3 hour flight on Westjet and at least 8 other parents changed diapers. I had to twice.

But the little table above the lav works great.

To all:
I personally do not understand all the complaints on a thin lav. I'd rather have a cheaper ticket enabled by the extra seats.

Lightsaber


I think that this post demonstrates why parenting is a miracle. As in, it will be a miracle if I do not end up screwing it up royally. That's some hefty parenting, and kudos to you.

I can see the last comment - and while I disagree, I can see it from your perspective clearly. If I were traveling with/purchasing for a family - I can see how it all adds up. I doubt we will see meaningful savings in costs, per se - immediately - however I can see how it factors in, long term.

Question; are there specific regulations regarding lavatories/passenger ratios on aircraft? In other words, could airlines that operate shorter sectors, operate aircraft without lavatories?
 
GW54
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Re: Airbus A320 Space flex, passenger / crew push back

Thu Jan 05, 2017 5:55 pm

The typical Air New Zealand domestic A320 flight is around 60mins, some shorter and some slightly longer. The toilet configurations do not from my experience great a problem or issue as most passengers have little need to use them. With a 171 seat configuration the extra space is utilised to great more leg room especially in rows 1-12 which is probably the most generous pitch I've enjoyed in a domestic configured A320 anywhere. Regional A320's are 168 seats and compared with Qantas 737-800's at 189 seats are a far more attractive option. I guess this is why Air New Zealand consistantly are at the top when Airline rankings are released.
 
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b727fa
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Re: Airbus A320 Space flex, passenger / crew push back

Thu Jan 05, 2017 6:23 pm

There have been galleys and lavs next to each other for years. This is nothing new.
My comments/opinions are my own and are not to be construed as the opinion(s) of my employer.
 
zkncj
Posts: 3868
Joined: Wed Nov 09, 2005 4:57 pm

Re: Airbus A320 Space flex, passenger / crew push back

Thu Jan 05, 2017 7:20 pm

GW54 wrote:
The typical Air New Zealand domestic A320 flight is around 60mins, some shorter and some slightly longer. The toilet configurations do not from my experience great a problem or issue as most passengers have little need to use them. With a 171 seat configuration the extra space is utilised to great more leg room especially in rows 1-12 which is probably the most generous pitch I've enjoyed in a domestic configured A320 anywhere. Regional A320's are 168 seats and compared with Qantas 737-800's at 189 seats are a far more attractive option. I guess this is why Air New Zealand consistantly are at the top when Airline rankings are released.


The pitch in row 1-12 is 34-35"! not bad for an all Y config A320 on an 60minute flight.
 
trex8
Posts: 5575
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Re: Airbus A320 Space flex, passenger / crew push back

Thu Jan 05, 2017 7:46 pm

ual777newpaint wrote:

See here:
https://runwaygirlnetwork.com/2015/08/1 ... ey-option/
Space-Flex v2 does offer a single American with Disabilities Act (ADA)-compliant lavatory, which is a positive feature for a narrowbody aircraft. But unlike Space-Flex v1 – which features a swinging partition between two lavatories to accommodate passengers with reduced mobility – Space-Flex v2’s lavatories have a fixed partition, and a wheelchair-bound passenger must transfer to a tip-up seat and then, unassisted, to the toilet seat.


whats a tip up seat???
 
Super88
Posts: 74
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Re: Airbus A320 Space flex, passenger / crew push back

Thu Jan 05, 2017 7:51 pm

The Lav galley duo has been in use by Southwest forever....there is one Lav on the captain's side and a galley on the first officer side, half galley facing aft and half facing forward, thats cramped enough (737-500, sadly gone and -300, not sure how the -700/800 are set up).....but airlines adding a 2nd lav and taking out part of the galley is nothing but airline's trying to squeeze more money out of an airplane....boss's like Ryanair, Easyjet etc need to do....A day in the life of a Flight Attendant...let them work in the condition's they have created sitting behind a desk and not actually on a plane where things are tight....there isn't enough room for the crew( 2 F/A's) to set up cart's, in a small space to begin with, while people come and go to use the Lav's if they are side by side and you have basically 4 people using the Lav's, 2 coming out and 2 going in....it seems when the seat belt sign goes out, there is a steady stream of people needing to use the Lav's.....when there isn't even enough room for trash, something is wrong....people who determine how to set up a cabin need to work in these spaces to see what it is actually like....
 
sevenair
Posts: 2959
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2001 7:18 am

Re: Airbus A320 Space flex, passenger / crew push back

Thu Jan 05, 2017 10:23 pm

easyJet have added an additional six seats. Eventually the idea is for them to have an all 186Y fleet once the A319s have gone. That's a lot of extra seats. They've also installed a bulkhead at door 1L which can be used as a crew rest area as rubbish should be stored at door 2R inflight which was traditionally where they spent any free time.

This will not apply to A319s. There is no change in layout so no need to bulkhead 1L.

Incidentally does anyone know much about the under floor rubbish storage concept on the A320? I heard someone mention some kind of trap door to store the rubbish bags, but can't find any more on it.
 
grbauc
Posts: 1469
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Re: Airbus A320 Space flex, passenger / crew push back

Thu Jan 05, 2017 10:54 pm

frmrCapCadet wrote:
I have mentioned before, most people would like to buy what they want. It is not possible on airlines. When I choose a motel I want 3 star amenities, don't need more, and I am uncomfortable with less. WN provides what I consider 3 star service, not many amenities but well delivered. Most airlines Y service is one and two stars, and only if the 'astrology' is right do they get up to 3, and sometimes perchance 4.

I cannot on Airlines web sites, nor on Orbitz or other sites order up a well delivered 3 star flight. If I could I would fly a hell of a lot more, might even sell my boat and become a traveler again. While I have not flown Asian airliners recently they almost always were 3 star. I could tolerate a two star on a flight less than 3 hours, but the ground service needs to be decent.


buy J seats. Business class is so affordable now compared to years past.
 
flyboy80
Posts: 2070
Joined: Fri Jul 13, 2001 8:10 am

Re: Airbus A320 Space flex, passenger / crew push back

Thu Feb 02, 2017 11:08 am

What US carriers use spaceflex, and I is there a side by side comparison of V1/V2- what's the benefit?
 
rocketPower
Posts: 109
Joined: Sat Jan 16, 2016 9:48 pm

Re: Airbus A320 Space flex, passenger / crew push back

Thu Feb 02, 2017 12:19 pm

The UA 737 I took from NGO to GUM had a weird lav, where the last row of seats took space away from the lav and as a result the toilet bowl was angled 30 or so degrees rather than perpendicular to the fuselage. It was really awkward and I'm 5'10, 220 lbs.

Didn't help my really tall 2 year old got the runs on the flight and I had to change her in there. That was a whole other story.

It was still a full galley though, these lavs were ahead of it in the usual place, as they serve meals on these flights.

rP
rocketPower

Life is about enjoying being uncomfortable. If you're complacent, something is wrong!
 
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ikolkyo
Posts: 2988
Joined: Tue Nov 05, 2013 8:43 pm

Re: Airbus A320 Space flex, passenger / crew push back

Thu Feb 02, 2017 1:56 pm

GW54 wrote:
The typical Air New Zealand domestic A320 flight is around 60mins, some shorter and some slightly longer. The toilet configurations do not from my experience great a problem or issue as most passengers have little need to use them. With a 171 seat configuration the extra space is utilised to great more leg room especially in rows 1-12 which is probably the most generous pitch I've enjoyed in a domestic configured A320 anywhere. Regional A320's are 168 seats and compared with Qantas 737-800's at 189 seats are a far more attractive option. I guess this is why Air New Zealand consistantly are at the top when Airline rankings are released.


Care to show me this 189 seat QF 738?

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