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klm617
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 4

Tue Jan 17, 2017 5:13 pm

johns624 wrote:
That's because ATL has no competition from any other DL hubs. Everything in the southern US goes through ATL. DTW competes with JFK for traffic for the northern states. Look at the population of all the states that would have to backtrack to DTW instead of fly direct from JFK.



I agree with that but that being said everyone west of Detroit should be flowing over the Detroit hub when choosing Delta as far as making connection to the international destinations served from Detroit because for anyone west of Detroit Atlanta is a back track to Europe in all cases. I would also venture to say that most of TN, KY and southern OH is also flowing over ATL when heading to London.
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compensateme
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 4

Tue Jan 17, 2017 5:19 pm

klm617 wrote:
I do get your point but what I'm saying is that DTW is the third largest international hub in the system and one can not make me believe that there isn't enough feed through this hub to support 2 daily flights to LHR even more so now with the VS JV. You can't make me believe that the O&D from ATL-LHR is 4 times bigger that the DTW-LHR market and to the cost conscious traveler the only loyalty there is is to price now with the way alliances are structured they are more designed for corporate advantage rather than for the traveler..


It shouldn't surprise you; ATL continues to grow as DL's largest hub -- nearly three time's DTW's size. There was a time period in which DTW & ATL had equal LHR service, but that ship's sailed. Heck, ATL has surpassed DTW as the largest connection point to the southwestern USA (LAX, LAS, POHX) from many communities within the Northeast -- traffic flows it barely handled pre-merger. I've maintained for quite awhile that the model isn't sustainable for the long term. 1 - DL will be reluctant to commit to paying on billions of debt for ATL expansion when it's contractually obligated to the oodles of capacity that exist at DTW & MSP that are arguably more efficient; 2 - if fuel prices swell again, the model of flying people an extra 500+ miles erodes; 3 - if UA/AA can get their dodo together, they can yield flight schedules at similar pricing as DL that save significant time - and people will notice.

In the short term, it is what it is.
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dtw2hyd
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 4

Tue Jan 17, 2017 5:51 pm

klm617 wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
alfa164 wrote:
Because LHR - unlike AMS and CDG - offers very little connectivity beyond London. How many Detroiters (Detroites? Detrioreons?) will commit to a vacation in London alone?


Back in late 90s BA used to offer RT+One week London vacation packages for less than $500. But those were days companies giving away free stuff until they went broke.


Fumy I don't remember BA ever going broke :-/


What I meant was freebie era is over. On short-haul they have BoB, pay for hot water and I believe on long-haul they are offering Mars Mini as second meal/snack.

I don't think anybody looking forward for BA service.
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thedetroitpole
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 4

Tue Jan 17, 2017 6:01 pm

How about, instead of complaining about London service, where there is nothing we can do about it, we should talk about domestic issues and constructively put the puzzle together. We have markets like Jacksonville that peak around 250 passengers each way and there is only a transit on a one time daily CRJ-700, or how about Sacramento where almost 200 people transit and there is not even a nonstop?

Put it this way, Jacksonville could easily be served on an A319, minimum, or at leased twice daily CRJ planes. No other carrier will do it, maybe Spirit, but even that is a long run, if Allegiant ever flew to Detroit, another long shot, than maybe they would connect a new transit, but this route has MONOPOLY stamped all over it. This is the same as West Palm Beach, Sarasota, and Savannah, there is nobody to compete with and they have no worries that anyone would be foolish enough to compete with them.

Sacramento, it will just not happen on Delta, they have given up, and Southwest will not do it, mainly because Detroit is a relatively small Southwest market, so again, creates another long shot. Again, unless Spirit flew there, they might connect this transit, but again, unlikely.

Unless Spirit all of a sudden adds Daytona, Sacramento, Orange County, Tuscon, Albuquerque, El Paso and San Jose, Delta could add them to compete, but they have not lifted a finger towards the Spirit announcement of Oakland, so I would not be surprised if they did not compete.

There are several scenarios you should think of before complaining on here about, "oh, we only have 1 flight to Timbuktu, why do we only have one?". Think of why the service is not possible, or if you post it, present a strong case instead of making it an emotional attachment.
 
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compensateme
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 4

Tue Jan 17, 2017 6:33 pm

thedetroitpole wrote:
How about, instead of complaining about London service, where there is nothing we can do about it, we should talk about domestic issues and constructively put the puzzle together. We have markets like Jacksonville that peak around 250 passengers each way and there is only a transit on a one time daily CRJ-700, or how about Sacramento where almost 200 people transit and there is not even a nonstop?

Put it this way, Jacksonville could easily be served on an A319, minimum, or at leased twice daily CRJ planes. No other carrier will do it, maybe Spirit, but even that is a long run, if Allegiant ever flew to Detroit, another long shot, than maybe they would connect a new transit, but this route has MONOPOLY stamped all over it. This is the same as West Palm Beach, Sarasota, and Savannah, there is nobody to compete with and they have no worries that anyone would be foolish enough to compete with them.

Sacramento, it will just not happen on Delta, they have given up, and Southwest will not do it, mainly because Detroit is a relatively small Southwest market, so again, creates another long shot. Again, unless Spirit flew there, they might connect this transit, but again, unlikely.

Unless Spirit all of a sudden adds Daytona, Sacramento, Orange County, Tuscon, Albuquerque, El Paso and San Jose, Delta could add them to compete, but they have not lifted a finger towards the Spirit announcement of Oakland, so I would not be surprised if they did not compete.

There are several scenarios you should think of before complaining on here about, "oh, we only have 1 flight to Timbuktu, why do we only have one?". Think of why the service is not possible, or if you post it, present a strong case instead of making it an emotional attachment.


DL's periodically flown mainline equipment on DTW/JAX. Historically, they've carried more local traffic via ATL than nonstop -- and via CLT isn't far behind it. I think your PDEW are off, but it's probable JAX is a small market that DL can't build enough frequency in to effectively service the local market nonstop. Same's true of PBI, SRQ and SAV.

And it isn't that airlines like NK are afraid of competing to these markets -- it's just that not enough people travel here. Status quo, most people traveling (from Michigan) to Florida want to visit Orlando, Tampa, Fort Lauderdale/Miami and Fort Myers and there's oodles of cheap flights to these places. It'll take some heavy incentive packages to get masses of people to go to SRQ, DAB, etc.
Last edited by compensateme on Tue Jan 17, 2017 6:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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flymco753
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 4

Tue Jan 17, 2017 11:14 pm

Why pursue QR to DOH when EK offers a far more superior product and DXB is a pretty cool stop over if you have a long connection? I wouldn't want to fly into congested KEF where you could get to Europe via OSL or CPH.
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compensateme
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 4

Wed Jan 18, 2017 1:45 am

flymco753 wrote:
Why pursue QR to DOH when EK offers a far more superior product and DXB is a pretty cool stop over if you have a long connection? I wouldn't want to fly into congested KEF where you could get to Europe via OSL or CPH.


EK most definitely does not have a superior product -- maybe in F (I've never been fortunate to experience that) but I'd give the edge to QR in J and Y.

And DOH is a pretty cool airport, much better than DXB IMO -- the concourse with the USA departures reminds me very much of DTW. If you have an extended layover, QR/DOH offer free organized tours of the city.
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 4

Wed Jan 18, 2017 4:05 pm

compensateme wrote:
flymco753 wrote:
Why pursue QR to DOH when EK offers a far more superior product and DXB is a pretty cool stop over if you have a long connection? I wouldn't want to fly into congested KEF where you could get to Europe via OSL or CPH.


EK most definitely does not have a superior product -- maybe in F (I've never been fortunate to experience that) but I'd give the edge to QR in J and Y.

And DOH is a pretty cool airport, much better than DXB IMO -- the concourse with the USA departures reminds me very much of DTW. If you have an extended layover, QR/DOH offer free organized tours of the city.
It's a preference, I think EK would better fit what the DTW market needs. There's been countless amount of times where Al-Bakar has stated that Detroit was being "evaluated", it's all talk to get DL riled up. Still I believe EK would be DTW's best bet for connection service to India, Bangladesh, and the gulf region.
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compensateme
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 4

Thu Jan 19, 2017 3:06 pm

While reviewing schedule changes on upcoming itineraries, I just noticed that DL is flying a domestic-configured 763 between DTW/ATL in May and June (late afternoon departure from ATL, early evening return from DTW). Pretty interesting -- I don't believe the 763A have ever been scheduled between DTW/ATL in regular service (just one-off flights, equipment substitutions, equipment re-positioning).

And yes, I know DL's scheduled the 763/ER and 77E/77L on the route before, and every single widebody has made a cameo appearance (a 744 once substituted for a 320, and I had no idea until the gate agent announced there'd be open seating).
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dtw2hyd
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 4

Thu Jan 19, 2017 4:28 pm

flymco753 wrote:
Why pursue QR to DOH when EK offers a far more superior product and DXB is a pretty cool stop over if you have a long connection? I wouldn't want to fly into congested KEF where you could get to Europe via OSL or CPH.


Hypothetical scenario, I doubt ME3 will ever start DTW service.

QR and EY offer superior product in all classes.
QR offers more connections.
Smallest plane EK can send is a 10 year old B77L or 6 year old B77W. Both QR and EY can send their newest B787s or A350s, both offer better product.
EY will have no issues code sharing with DL and others, helps to fill its planes.

So without any partner you have fill 428 seats in a 150-200 PDEW market. Not viable even for EK.

QR,EY,TK and AI do better than EK at ORD.
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compensateme
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 4

Thu Jan 19, 2017 4:45 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
Hypothetical scenario, I doubt ME3 will ever start DTW service


If the ME3 pursue their stated growth plan in the USA, DTW will have to be considered. If the local ethic population is willing to spend 4-6 hours driving to YYZ or ORD, it'd be foolhardy to suggest that spending 3-4 additional hours in the air is a no-go for them -- especially given many of them are doing it from YYZ and ORD, on top of the drive.

---

I think the DTW threads set an a.net record for fewest views per post, lol...
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 4

Thu Jan 19, 2017 6:12 pm

compensateme wrote:
If the ME3 pursue their stated growth plan in the USA, DTW will have to be considered. If the local ethic population is willing to spend 4-6 hours driving to YYZ or ORD, it'd be foolhardy to suggest that spending 3-4 additional hours in the air is a no-go for them -- especially given many of them are doing it from YYZ and ORD, on top of the drive.



Multiple issues
-ORD,NYC,YYZ and BOS are getting considerable DTW traffic, a DTW non-stop will trash their own loads further. They may up-gauge those stations and lower ticket prices.
-As it was discussed DXB,AUH and DOH doesn't serve local ME population. Backtracking. TK could have captured, but first Turkey has bigger issues than aviation. Lufthansa may very well taking care of this demography.
-For Indians, SkyTeam and LH offer one stop to DEL,BOM,BLR and MAA. There are only couple of stations left out like HYD.

SkyTeam+ now offers good India connections, DTW is the only station connected to all three European SkyTeam hubs, AMS, CDG, LHR with onward connections to India.
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compensateme
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 4

Thu Jan 19, 2017 6:41 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:

Multiple issues
-ORD,NYC,YYZ and BOS are getting considerable DTW traffic, a DTW non-stop will trash their own loads further. They may up-gauge those stations and lower ticket prices.


That assumes their flights are at full saturation, which isn't likely the case. There's ample growth opportunity for the ME3 at incumbent stations.

-As it was discussed DXB,AUH and DOH doesn't serve local ME population. Backtracking. TK could have captured, but first Turkey has bigger issues than aviation. Lufthansa may very well taking care of this demography.


Backtracking is irrelevant. JFK-DOH-BEY is up to 2,000 miles longer than traveling through LHR, CDG or FRA but total trip time is only about an hour longer in most cases, due to the shorter connection enabled at DOH. Reality is, as long as the trip time is competitive, most people won't care. Just look at DL -- ATL has surpassed DTW in connections from most northeast communities to the southwest, even though it adds up to 500 miles to the journey. And besides, most of these people are already enduring a 3-5 hour drive to ORD to YYZ.

So yes, a hub like DOH could well serve the local Middle Eastern and Indian populations. Not to mention that many people traveling to the Middle East feel more comfortable on a local carrier. Lower fares could also stimulate traffic.

-For Indians, SkyTeam and LH offer one stop to DEL,BOM,BLR and MAA. There are only couple of stations left out like HYD.

SkyTeam+ now offers good India connections, DTW is the only station connected to all three European SkyTeam hubs, AMS, CDG, LHR with onward connections to India.


I don't disagree, but it's largely irrelevant -- the planet is well connected; that's not why the industry is expanding.
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klm617
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 4

Thu Jan 19, 2017 7:13 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
compensateme wrote:
If the ME3 pursue their stated growth plan in the USA, DTW will have to be considered. If the local ethic population is willing to spend 4-6 hours driving to YYZ or ORD, it'd be foolhardy to suggest that spending 3-4 additional hours in the air is a no-go for them -- especially given many of them are doing it from YYZ and ORD, on top of the drive.



Multiple issues
-ORD,NYC,YYZ and BOS are getting considerable DTW traffic, a DTW non-stop will trash their own loads further. They may up-gauge those stations and lower ticket prices.
-As it was discussed DXB,AUH and DOH doesn't serve local ME population. Backtracking. TK could have captured, but first Turkey has bigger issues than aviation. Lufthansa may very well taking care of this demography.
-For Indians, SkyTeam and LH offer one stop to DEL,BOM,BLR and MAA. There are only couple of stations left out like HYD.

SkyTeam+ now offers good India connections, DTW is the only station connected to all three European SkyTeam hubs, AMS, CDG, LHR with onward connections to India.



But again DL and LH command a sky high fare in this market something price sensitive families can not afford. Secondly you are not going to trash load at ORD or BOS by adding a Detroit flight as those markets already have a lot capacity and if their flights are going out empty then passably they are in the wrong markets as I know for a fact BOS-DXB is double daily so that market can't be hurting as far as revenue goes and QR just jumped on the band wagon. Why is it we always find ways in this forum to justify when airlines snub DTW but we just can't seem to rally around this market and scratch our heads that we keep getting passed over when it comes to airlines adding new markets. I presume the reason this thread always get very few views is because everybody is drooling over the ATL, MIA and SEA threads
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johns624
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 4

Thu Jan 19, 2017 7:22 pm

klm617 wrote:
But again DL and LH command a sky high fare in this market something price sensitive families can not afford.s
So it's not just DL now? Two airlines serving a certain demographic isn't enough now?
 
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 4

Thu Jan 19, 2017 7:53 pm

klm617 wrote:
But again DL and LH command a sky high fare in this market something price sensitive families can not afford. Secondly you are not going to trash load at ORD or BOS by adding a Detroit flight as those markets already have a lot capacity and if their flights are going out empty then passably they are in the wrong markets as I know for a fact BOS-DXB is double daily so that market can't be hurting as far as revenue goes and QR just jumped on the band wagon. Why is it we always find ways in this forum to justify when airlines snub DTW but we just can't seem to rally around this market and scratch our heads that we keep getting passed over when it comes to airlines adding new markets. I presume the reason this thread always get very few views is because everybody is drooling over the ATL, MIA and SEA threads


Rallying and drooling on ONE internet forum doesn't get air service. Start a petition with WCAA or Airline I will be happy to sign the petition. I will be happy if someone starts service to DTW, personally I won't be using ME3 or TK. For Indians in Detroit best thing could happen is 9W/KL/AF/VS connecting more Indian cities from AMS/CDG/LHR
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 4

Fri Jan 20, 2017 1:10 am

If y'all want to get back on track with the thread, I invite you to join me, or you can continue with your little session here that's fine, but how will AM's new flights benefit DTW? Why do you think AM chose to put their planes at DTW over MSP?
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 4

Fri Jan 20, 2017 2:14 am

This airport doesn't even come close to effectively marketing itself. I understand full well this went on during the NW days but NW was committed to enhancing and expanding it's offerings in the Detroit market and Delta has no where near the commitment that NW had and I understand why that is but the WCAA also needs to grasp that Detroit is of very little importance at this point to Delta and stop pandering to them until they show a greater level of commitment to this market.and time and act accordingly.
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klm617
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 4

Fri Jan 20, 2017 2:18 am

flymco753 wrote:
If y'all want to get back on track with the thread, I invite you to join me, or you can continue with your little session here that's fine, but how will AM's new flights benefit DTW? Why do you think AM chose to put their planes at DTW over MSP?


I think the real reason AM chose DTW over MSP is due to the fact that MSP is to far north to make a flight feasible as it would rely mostly on connecting traffic because the O&D market between MEX-MSP is not that big. Detroit has a very large Mexican population also which will help this flight succeed.
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 4

Fri Jan 20, 2017 4:38 am

compensateme wrote:
DL choose not to operate DTW/CUN, even though there was sufficient traffic. They carried the lion's share of traffic, mostly via ATL; it's not a coincidence that as their share errorded, they elected to bring back the flight - which comes as a reduction in service from ATL. Reality is, DTW/CUN overflies ATL and no doubt planners thought it was better to offer 7x daily service to maximize connections. Alas, I standby my comments.
I bought a round trip fare on Delta to Florida and it was round trip. I checked a few days prior and than I found I had to connect in Atlanta. I bought my ticket on Spirit to Florida as well, same destination and situation and place, Atlanta was recommended as a cheaper option, I kindly declined. Some Detroit to Florida routes run six daily flights on Delta, given the situation and aircraft type offered nonstop, there is no reason why the route could be eight daily, and the aircraft types were MD80's maybe 1 757 if you were lucky, but mostly 737's. The ATL flight was an MD80 both ways between DTW and ATL and an A321 to Florida. Spirit is always full too, but they run three daily flights in the winter.
 
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 4

Fri Jan 20, 2017 11:02 am

So I frequent these posts too because there isn't much publicity or news regarding the DTW market. Whether it be from RoutesOnline, Airline Business, OAG or anyone else for that matter. I work in the airline industry in revenue management. I understand the way airline pricing works and how pricing can stimulate demand. I'm a native Detroiter (who (un)fortunately due to my interest in aviation) lives now in Europe to work for a European airline.

Here's what I can say:
- WCAA could definitely be better at being more innovative. Their representative at Routes Chengdu (from what my colleague mentioned) left room for improvement. I don't like KLM617's constant complaining, but his argument (in my opinion) regarding the WCAA does have some merit.
- DL is committed to Detroit. Launching DTW-MUC, in my opinion, was a proactive move to prevent someone else from starting the route. DL wants to defend DTW. It will be interesting to monitor how committed DL is to serving this O&D. DL mentioned the strong business ties between Detroit and Munich as justification for the launch, but only serves the route in the summer where added summer tourist and VFR demand can be captured. As DTW is only the 2nd DL hub to have MUC service (ahead of JFK), I wonder if and whether it will go year-round.
- DL has slightly reduced capacity on DTW-AMS. I believe DL is trying to pump connecting traffic more on their own metal (beyond AMS/CDG). Metal neutrality isn't metal neutrality when imbalances exist year over year.
- DTW seems to have received a lot of new interest as of late. NK seems to be growing the market at quite a good clip, and the return of AM is nice to see.
- AA and UA are upgauging services to DTW. My brother in DEN now has 5 options to visit my parents in DTW. That's quite amazing, yet once can still see the market power DL has, as they remain the carrier with the largest market share. DTW is a strong hub and traffic flows can definitely be funneled via DTW when necessary.
- DTW excels with its in-airport restaurants and shopping as well as providing a world class facility. I wonder whether the McNamara terminal has input from DL in terms of concessions, because McNamara is light years ahead of North. Whoever manages concessions at DTW should be given a pay increase. I like the mixture of national chains and local merchants. Plum Market in the airport is amazing. I only wish that more could be in in the North Terminal, but the low amount of foot-traffic make it difficult.
- LH Lounge is the only lounge in the North Terminal. Despite LH reducing lounges world-wide, LH will maintain the lounge at DTW until the lease for the space is up, then re-evaluate.
- LH will send the 744 to DTW this summer. The increase in service is a bump in capacity. The increase in capacity will cause some prices in the market to fall between DTW-Europe. However, don't expect airlines to reduce their p2p pricing as this will generate buy-down. The reason for DTW-FRA/FRA-DTW services is primarily the automobile industry.
- I hope AS will increase their service to DTW. I believe they are in the best position to do so given the limited services to the West Coast.
- If Detroit City and Metropolitan Counties can get COBO to becoming a world-class convention venue, I truly believe this will be a win for Detroit and attract attention. Look at all the one-offs LAS is getting due to the CES. Dumb that it took place at exactly the same time as the NAIAS.

My predictions says that 2018 will be the year that DTW lands a new foreign carrier (not Skyteam affiliated) as the city will be thoroughly on it's rebound by then.
(Just as a side note, my friends are moving now into the city as one of them got a job downtown and will be foregoing one car and commuting by rail - whether this is an anomaly or a trend, Detroit is definitely changing). So despite the negativity regarding the bankruptcy and the Great Recession in 2008, DTW is definitely diversifying and getting stronger. The time is now to invest in Detroit.
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 4

Fri Jan 20, 2017 3:52 pm

The moderators remind all users to stay on topic and debate the issues at hand without the personal attacks against other users. If the thread keeps going off topic it will be locked
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alfa164
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 4

Fri Jan 20, 2017 3:53 pm

hjulicher wrote:
- DTW excels with its in-airport restaurants and shopping as well as providing a world class facility. I wonder whether the McNamara terminal has input from DL in terms of concessions, because McNamara is light years ahead of North. Whoever manages concessions at DTW should be given a pay increase. I like the mixture of national chains and local merchants. Plum Market in the airport is amazing. I only wish that more could be in in the North Terminal, but the low amount of foot-traffic make it difficult.


Except that it is almost impossible to find Dr. Pepper (but thank you, Qdoba!!!) in the terminal! ;)
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 4

Fri Jan 20, 2017 4:17 pm

Regarding the WCAA, they are doing a fairly good job with air service so far, and it's not the problem of the WCAA, it's the airlines themselves. I've heard international travelers say they were afraid of getting mugged and shot inside the terminal and that workers were going to steal their money, because that's how they perceive it as in their country, that Detroit is still an industrial ruin and the most dangerous city in the world. There are key services that they have to attract before courting other carriers like Middle East options, Poland, and domestic options. I don't know how Delta runs their route planning or who is in control of DTW in that department, but you can only do so much to give them numbers and what have you, so no the WCAA isn't "in bed" if you will with Delta.
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compensateme
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 4

Fri Jan 20, 2017 4:18 pm

klm617 wrote:
flymco753 wrote:
If y'all want to get back on track with the thread, I invite you to join me, or you can continue with your little session here that's fine, but how will AM's new flights benefit DTW? Why do you think AM chose to put their planes at DTW over MSP?


I think the real reason AM chose DTW over MSP is due to the fact that MSP is to far north to make a flight feasible as it would rely mostly on connecting traffic because the O&D market between MEX-MSP is not that big. Detroit has a very large Mexican population also which will help this flight succeed.


There's a fair amount of business travel between DTW and various points in Mexico. This is one of the few incumbent opportunities DL has for growth as much of this traffic is currently captured by AA (via DFW) and UA (via IAH). The JV enables DL to better compete for this traffic via MTY and MEX.

MSP serves a region with few natural business links to MEX, but service was last attempted during the height of the recession. It wouldn't be surprising to see DL/AM try it again.
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alfa164
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 4

Fri Jan 20, 2017 7:57 pm

compensateme wrote:
klm617 wrote:
flymco753 wrote:
If y'all want to get back on track with the thread, I invite you to join me, or you can continue with your little session here that's fine, but how will AM's new flights benefit DTW? Why do you think AM chose to put their planes at DTW over MSP?

I think the real reason AM chose DTW over MSP is due to the fact that MSP is to far north to make a flight feasible as it would rely mostly on connecting traffic because the O&D market between MEX-MSP is not that big. Detroit has a very large Mexican population also which will help this flight succeed.

a fair amount of business travel between DTW and various points in Mexico. This is one of the few incumbent opportunities DL has for growth as much of this traffic is currently captured by AA (via DFW) and UA (via IAH). The JV enables DL to better compete for this traffic via MTY and MEX.
MSP serves a region with few natural business links to MEX, but service was last attempted during the height of the recession. It wouldn't be surprising to see DL/AM try it again.

And DTW is actually further from MEX (1824 miles) than MSP is (1792 miles). Perhaps the poster-who-should-not-be-named doesn't realize Detroit is in the north, too. ;)
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klm617
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 4

Fri Jan 20, 2017 10:36 pm

alfa164 wrote:
compensateme wrote:
klm617 wrote:
I think the real reason AM chose DTW over MSP is due to the fact that MSP is to far north to make a flight feasible as it would rely mostly on connecting traffic because the O&D market between MEX-MSP is not that big. Detroit has a very large Mexican population also which will help this flight succeed.

a fair amount of business travel between DTW and various points in Mexico. This is one of the few incumbent opportunities DL has for growth as much of this traffic is currently captured by AA (via DFW) and UA (via IAH). The JV enables DL to better compete for this traffic via MTY and MEX.
MSP serves a region with few natural business links to MEX, but service was last attempted during the height of the recession. It wouldn't be surprising to see DL/AM try it again.

And DTW is actually further from MEX (1824 miles) than MSP is (1792 miles). Perhaps the poster-who-should-not-be-named doesn't realize Detroit is in the north, too. ;)


You are correct that is because flying to DTW on must fly north east where as when flying to MSP you fly almost straight north so while it is less miles to fly it is still further north than Detroit and where Detroit is in the Delta vs. Minneapolis there are far more connections that can be made without having to fly out of you way.
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 4

Fri Jan 20, 2017 10:57 pm

klm617 wrote:
You are correct that is because flying to DTW on must fly north east where as when flying to MSP you fly almost straight north so while it is less miles to fly it is still further north than Detroit and where Detroit is in the Delta vs. Minneapolis there are far more connections that can be made without having to fly out of you way.


Do you even bother to re-read what you've written to see if it makes sense? Doing that alone would add credibility to any argument you are trying to make. Your sentence(s) just ramble on, in-fact, the above quote is just one sentence, but doesn't make any sense to me. Anyways, realize that you do not need to respond to every single thread reply on airliners.net., or are you just trying to be 'heard'. Sometimes saying less is saying more...

In 2 years you have almost posted as much as I have in 12 years!
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dtwpilot225
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 4

Sat Jan 21, 2017 3:38 pm

I think that dtws saving grace is the auto industry and also the decision northwest made to construct this beautiful hub with the new terminal: in my opinion if msp had the airport that dtw has we might be in trouble but they don't and even the CEO has said that dtw is the best airport in North America. I am really excited with the re birth of detroit that it will add a lot more flights in the future
 
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 4

Sat Jan 21, 2017 4:00 pm

dtwpilot225 wrote:
I think that dtws saving grace is the auto industry and also the decision northwest made to construct this beautiful hub with the new terminal: in my opinion if msp had the airport that dtw has we might be in trouble but they don't and even the CEO has said that dtw is the best airport in North America. I am really excited with the re birth of detroit that it will add a lot more flights in the future
Domestically, airlines are beginning to see the silver lining in the DTW market. Internationally it's going to take a long time to restore the minds of thinking it's not what it's portrayed. NK seems to be growing steadily at DTW showing their commitment to the DTW hub for the long term. I'd suspect you'll see AUS, BNA, STL, even IND to an extent. F9 has added a new flight every year for the past few years, so it obviously shows they want to be part of DTW's leisure market. I could see B6 doing MCO and JFK in the future as well as increased frequency to BOS. The airlines I question specifically is WN, they have been stagnant over the past few years, tho they seem to be testing MCO on Saturday in the winter months, maybe MCO will come back year round but other markets like MSY and HOU are flights WN could add and be fine with, they just won't add them. The last add was in 2014 and that was DAL.

DL is it's own story, obviously I'm not from the area so I can't tell you how that works since it's hub specific, but I can see ABQ, ELP, TUS, SMF, DAB and maybe SNA or SJC jumping on board at some point.
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iFlyDTW
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 4

Sat Jan 21, 2017 4:06 pm

flymco753 wrote:
obviously I'm not from the area so I can't tell you how that works since it's hub specific, but I can see ABQ, ELP, TUS, SMF, DAB and maybe SNA or SJC jumping on board at some point.
If you're not from here why post about something you don't know? Most of your statements are correct but provide credibility especially if this isn't your home airport. I am impressed though that you know what you do about DTW, it's impressive hearing it from someone from another airport.
 
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compensateme
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 4

Sat Jan 21, 2017 4:26 pm

dtwpilot225 wrote:
I think that dtws saving grace is the auto industry and also the decision northwest made to construct this beautiful hub with the new terminal: in my opinion if msp had the airport that dtw has we might be in trouble but they don't and even the CEO has said that dtw is the best airport in North America. I am really excited with the re birth of detroit that it will add a lot more flights in the future


The "saving grace" is the local traffic, which is similar to MSP and well ahead of CLT, SLC, etc; DL's local enplanements are greater than either UA or AA at ORD. Nor does DTW serve the same traffic flows as MSP, so that's not much of a concern.

FWIW... DTW carries about $2B in debt whereas MSP has $1.4B, mostly related to the NW expansion. DTW owns the Westin and the right buyer might pay $150M or more for the property (based on current cash flows, it's not worth the $100M in debt its carrying, however). MSP's borrowing about $200M to modernize its older facilities, so they're pretty close in debt.
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johns624
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 4

Sat Jan 21, 2017 4:31 pm

iFlyDTW wrote:
If you're not from here why post about something you don't know?
That was uncalled for. It seems like he knows as much about DTW as some people who live here.
 
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 4

Sat Jan 21, 2017 7:55 pm

iFlyDTW wrote:
flymco753 wrote:
obviously I'm not from the area so I can't tell you how that works since it's hub specific, but I can see ABQ, ELP, TUS, SMF, DAB and maybe SNA or SJC jumping on board at some point.
If you're not from here why post about something you don't know? Most of your statements are correct but provide credibility especially if this isn't your home airport. I am impressed though that you know what you do about DTW, it's impressive hearing it from someone from another airport.


I'm not sure what you're trying to say here but I think this persons perspective is usually pretty smart and well thought out and most definitely welcome on this thread. One doesn't have to be from a particular area to speak about it with some intelligence.
 
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 4

Sun Jan 22, 2017 7:03 pm

ASFlyer wrote:
iFlyDTW wrote:
flymco753 wrote:
obviously I'm not from the area so I can't tell you how that works since it's hub specific, but I can see ABQ, ELP, TUS, SMF, DAB and maybe SNA or SJC jumping on board at some point.
If you're not from here why post about something you don't know? Most of your statements are correct but provide credibility especially if this isn't your home airport. I am impressed though that you know what you do about DTW, it's impressive hearing it from someone from another airport.


I'm not sure what you're trying to say here but I think this persons perspective is usually pretty smart and well thought out and most definitely welcome on this thread. One doesn't have to be from a particular area to speak about it with some intelligence.
I didn't mean to come off harsh I apologize. You make sense and it's good thinking so I really didn't mean to make it sound like you're always wrong, I just want to make sure you're right about stuff so you're not on the crap list against some posters.

I think MSP is going year round for NK before BOS, it's been talked about for a while, the flight does very well in the summer, if anything DTW-MSP could go to a A320 in the winter and a A321 in the summer.
 
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 4

Mon Jan 23, 2017 2:50 pm

iFlyDTW wrote:
ASFlyer wrote:
iFlyDTW wrote:
I didn't mean to come off harsh I apologize. You make sense and it's good thinking so I really didn't mean to make it sound like you're always wrong, I just want to make sure you're right about stuff so you're not on the crap list against some posters.
I travel to DTW periodically for several reasons, so no worries I think you're in good hands.

Any who, I've done a forecast on total passenger numbers for 2016, it can easily seal the deal on 34 mil. If the airport flew 2.5 mil through in December, the total will easily be 34 mil. That's thanks to some new services and other aircraft upgauges. This year with NK adding OAK and SEA, that's a pretty good deal, and AM to allow more flow, I wouldn't be surprised if the pax numbers break 36 mil soon.
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 4

Mon Jan 23, 2017 4:14 pm

News abt new Spirit mx hangar

Spirit Airlines is nearing completion of its state-of-the-art maintenance hangar here to repair its fleet. It will also allow more planes to be stored at Detroit Metropolitan Airport, which officials say could lead to more flights for travelers.

The $32 million hangar, the first one constructed from the ground up at the airport in nearly two decades, is slated to open this spring and is expected to become the jewel of Spirit’s repair operations, training and other options. It will bring a few hundred jobs to the region.


http://www.detroitnews.com/story/busine ... /96936420/
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iFlyDTW
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 4

Mon Jan 23, 2017 4:54 pm

NK wants to do a lot with DTW, as stated in the article this hanger will let them do that. I've heard things like flights from Detroit to San Diego to crazy things like a route to Latrobe. NK wants metal at DTW, judging this summers schedule they're already ramping up for growth.
 
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compensateme
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 4

Mon Jan 23, 2017 6:10 pm

DTW is a natural growth market for NK; it's one of the few remaining major communities without significant competition and it has a large legacy consumer base.

NK previously peaked at DTW in summer 2008. They butchered their schedule that fall, when the North Terminal opened and their rents swelled. The schedule that summer:

Fort Laudersale - 4x daily
Fort Myers - 1x daily
Las Vegas - 2x daily
Los Angeles - 2x daily
Myrtle Beach - 1x daily
New York City - 2x daily
Orlando - 4x daily
Tampa - 2x daily
Cancun - Saturday only
= 18 total departures
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klm617
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 4

Mon Jan 23, 2017 11:15 pm

compensateme wrote:
DTW is a natural growth market for NK; it's one of the few remaining major communities without significant competition and it has a large legacy consumer base.

NK previously peaked at DTW in summer 2008. They butchered their schedule that fall, when the North Terminal opened and their rents swelled. The schedule that summer:

Fort Laudersale - 4x daily
Fort Myers - 1x daily
Las Vegas - 2x daily
Los Angeles - 2x daily
Myrtle Beach - 1x daily
New York City - 2x daily
Orlando - 4x daily
Tampa - 2x daily
Cancun - Saturday only
= 18 total departures



... and to think this airline started with one Convair flying between DTW-ACY
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klm617
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 4

Mon Jan 23, 2017 11:17 pm

Would be nice to see Spirit start flights from Detroit to Dublin
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tb727
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 4

Mon Jan 23, 2017 11:28 pm

klm617 wrote:
Would be nice to see Spirit start flights from Detroit to Dublin


lol, I don't see anything over the water ever happening with NK.
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johns624
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 4

Tue Jan 24, 2017 1:13 am

The two old hangars off Middlebelt Rd between the "Executive Terminal" and the old Nomads hangar were torn down a few weeks ago. I've also seen 3 UPS planes parked at their building lately instead of the normal two. Business must be good. I couldn't get close but it looks like they kept the 757 and replaced the MD11 with 2 either A300s or 767s.
 
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klm617
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 4

Tue Jan 24, 2017 1:25 am

tb727 wrote:
klm617 wrote:
Would be nice to see Spirit start flights from Detroit to Dublin


lol, I don't see anything over the water ever happening with NK.



Probably not but it would be nice if they did something like WestJet did from eastern Canada with their narrow bodies. Or DTW to KEF and interline with WOW Air.
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iFlyDTW
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 4

Tue Jan 24, 2017 5:59 pm

The NK A321 could make it to KEF but that's an uncomfortable ride. I fly the LAX to DTW route every other month and it can get uncomfortable. NK isn't worried about Atlantic service, I'm not sure they are in the long term right now. What I can tell you is they will continue to grow in their current markets, DTW is performing well and they have stated that new routes and increased frequency is coming.
 
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compensateme
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 4

Tue Jan 24, 2017 7:27 pm

iFlyDTW wrote:
The NK A321 could make it to KEF but that's an uncomfortable ride. I fly the LAX to DTW route every other month and it can get uncomfortable. NK isn't worried about Atlantic service, I'm not sure they are in the long term right now. What I can tell you is they will continue to grow in their current markets, DTW is performing well and they have stated that new routes and increased frequency is coming.


NK isn't going to fly intercontinental anytime soon; the prospects of making money in the domestic market -- without the challenges that come with long-haul service -- are far greater right now.

It'd be nice if NK resumed service to ORD -- the lowest fares in the market are generally $124-$144, with limited available during peak departure times. Problem with ORD is that it's short enough that many people can forgo the auxiliary fees (advanced seat assignments, baggage, snacks & beverages, etc.) that make NK's low fares possible.
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tb727
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 4

Tue Jan 24, 2017 10:38 pm

compensateme wrote:
iFlyDTW wrote:
The NK A321 could make it to KEF but that's an uncomfortable ride. I fly the LAX to DTW route every other month and it can get uncomfortable. NK isn't worried about Atlantic service, I'm not sure they are in the long term right now. What I can tell you is they will continue to grow in their current markets, DTW is performing well and they have stated that new routes and increased frequency is coming.


NK isn't going to fly intercontinental anytime soon; the prospects of making money in the domestic market -- without the challenges that come with long-haul service -- are far greater right now.

It'd be nice if NK resumed service to ORD -- the lowest fares in the market are generally $124-$144, with limited available during peak departure times. Problem with ORD is that it's short enough that many people can forgo the auxiliary fees (advanced seat assignments, baggage, snacks & beverages, etc.) that make NK's low fares possible.


Agree with ORD in wishing it would come back but also agree that you are correct about the auxiliary fares and that such a short flight just doesn't fit the model anymore. If I had to go to Chicago, I think I'd just do Amtrak right now.
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compensateme
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 4

Tue Jan 24, 2017 11:24 pm

tb727 wrote:
Agree with ORD in wishing it would come back but also agree that you are correct about the auxiliary fares and that such a short flight just doesn't fit the model anymore. If I had to go to Chicago, I think I'd just do Amtrak right now.


If you need to travel to Chicago for a day trip (business), Amtrak is time consuming.

The good news is that if you plan in advance, you can purchase a RT from FNT for $98-$156 on WN during one of its perpetual sales. The bad news is that it's probable WN will withdraw from FNT -- its November LF was in the low-60s and its average airfare to MDW is about half that as DTW. I'll place my bets on WN leaving town at the end of the summer season, when its physical fleet shrinks considerably as a result of the 733 retirements. I hope I'm wrong... but it's not looking good.

FWIW, here's WN's lowest fares from MDW to Midwestern communities:
Cleveland - $101
Columbus (OH) - $101
Dayton - $49
Detroit - $113
Flint - $49
Grand Rapids - $49
Indianapolis - $63
Minneapolis/St. Paul - $39

Only MSP, which is a hypercompetitive market, has lower fares. DAY has already been whacked.
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tb727
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 4

Tue Jan 24, 2017 11:35 pm

compensateme wrote:
tb727 wrote:
Agree with ORD in wishing it would come back but also agree that you are correct about the auxiliary fares and that such a short flight just doesn't fit the model anymore. If I had to go to Chicago, I think I'd just do Amtrak right now.


If you need to travel to Chicago for a day trip (business), Amtrak is time consuming.


I should mention that I spend enough time in airplanes and airports already:) I also live not even 10 minutes from the Ann Arbor station. I did a dummy booking and it would only be about $150 for my wife and I and our infant for a roundtrip there. I agree though, flying is the way to go. Everyone should fly so I can continue to get a paycheck.
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iFlyDTW
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 4

Thu Feb 02, 2017 2:16 pm

With all of the available space coming around at DTW, is it possible for a cargo carrier to build up? The room is there, but is the profitability for a cargo carrier there?

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