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dtwpilot225
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 4

Thu Feb 02, 2017 2:22 pm

Dtw-sfo is has a 330 on one of the flights in march
Pretty cool to see
 
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klm617
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 4

Fri Feb 03, 2017 1:40 am

So I read today that QR is starting twice weekly cargo flights from Pittsburgh. No what perplexes me is what does Pittsburgh have to offer in a way of cargo that the Detroit market can not and why can't the WCAA land one dedicated cargo carrier. I think once again the people that run the airport are sleeping on the job. We have this big Aerotroplis in the works for handling cargo but yet the WCAA can not get one dedicated cargo airline to enter the Detroit market. Something doesn't add up. TIP is ripe for a cargo carrier to base their hub there but yet nothing seems to ever get done. Operations at YIP have also digressed in the last few years.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
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klm617
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 4

Fri Feb 03, 2017 1:43 am

iFlyDTW wrote:
With all of the available space coming around at DTW, is it possible for a cargo carrier to build up? The room is there, but is the profitability for a cargo carrier there?


YIP is an even better choice it's wide open with plenty of space but yet nothing is done to market the airport to cargo operators to base their operations there. CVG just landed Amazon Air and they will base 40 aircraft there. So CVG has done pretty well in the absence of Delta as a hub carrier in that market.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
flyDTW1992
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 4

Fri Feb 03, 2017 1:51 am

klm617 wrote:
So I read today that QR is starting twice weekly cargo flights from Pittsburgh. No what perplexes me is what does Pittsburgh have to offer in a way of cargo that the Detroit market can not and why can't the WCAA land one dedicated cargo carrier. I think once again the people that run the airport are sleeping on the job. We have this big Aerotroplis in the works for handling cargo but yet the WCAA can not get one dedicated cargo airline to enter the Detroit market. Something doesn't add up. TIP is ripe for a cargo carrier to base their hub there but yet nothing seems to ever get done. Operations at YIP have also digressed in the last few years.

For once I have to agree with you to an extent.

As has been pointed out by others familiar with the matter, DTW doesn't even have an available warehouse or handling agent with main deck loader for cargo flights. Kalitta for example couldn't even fly a 747 or 767 in for a charter due to not having the proper handling available.

I would be interested to hear what about the PIT market calls for QR cargo service. I would think here in the DTW region that enough automotive (or at least automotive-related) freight could be consolidated to bring in at least one international carrier, whether it be Cargolux, Lufthansa (which would, of course, be a resumption of service), Emirates, Cathay, etc. Perhaps as the tech sector expands in the area and intertwines further with the auto industry, something connecting an international point, DTW, and the West Coast could become a possibility.

As for YIP, I would love to see the runway extension and infrastructure improvements make a difference in attracting some form of new traffic, but I'm not sure how realistic that is. YIP will continue to be a base of operations for on-demand automotive freight, that's its unshakable niche, and I see no signs of that going away. YIP is never going to be another LCK or RFD, unfortunately.
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klm617
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 4

Fri Feb 03, 2017 2:06 am

flyDTW1992 wrote:
klm617 wrote:
So I read today that QR is starting twice weekly cargo flights from Pittsburgh. No what perplexes me is what does Pittsburgh have to offer in a way of cargo that the Detroit market can not and why can't the WCAA land one dedicated cargo carrier. I think once again the people that run the airport are sleeping on the job. We have this big Aerotroplis in the works for handling cargo but yet the WCAA can not get one dedicated cargo airline to enter the Detroit market. Something doesn't add up. TIP is ripe for a cargo carrier to base their hub there but yet nothing seems to ever get done. Operations at YIP have also digressed in the last few years.

For once I have to agree with you to an extent.

As has been pointed out by others familiar with the matter, DTW doesn't even have an available warehouse or handling agent with main deck loader for cargo flights. Kalitta for example couldn't even fly a 747 or 767 in for a charter due to not having the proper handling available.

I would be interested to hear what about the PIT market calls for QR cargo service. I would think here in the DTW region that enough automotive (or at least automotive-related) freight could be consolidated to bring in at least one international carrier, whether it be Cargolux, Lufthansa (which would, of course, be a resumption of service), Emirates, Cathay, etc. Perhaps as the tech sector expands in the area and intertwines further with the auto industry, something connecting an international point, DTW, and the West Coast could become a possibility.

As for YIP, I would love to see the runway extension and infrastructure improvements make a difference in attracting some form of new traffic, but I'm not sure how realistic that is. YIP will continue to be a base of operations for on-demand automotive freight, that's its unshakable niche, and I see no signs of that going away. YIP is never going to be another LCK or RFD, unfortunately.


Call me a conspiracy theorist but I think this is all done by design to make it difficult for dedicated cargo carriers to enter the Detroit market as the WCAA wants to make sure that Delta margins are not impacted in a negative way so they want to make sure Delta carries the lion's share of bulk cargo out of Detroit.
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hjulicher
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 4

Fri Feb 03, 2017 2:20 pm

Not all cargo can be carried on a passenger aircraft due to dangerous goods regulations as well as size. As Delta doesn't offer dedicated cargo aircraft, I don't see how this would impact Delta as you suggest. Additionally, the Cargo Airfreight markets is under severe pressure right now, and Fed-EX and UPS are the biggest players. Even a Lufthansa Cargo is a marginal player in this segment. I don't expect to see much growth in cargo.
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klm617
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 4

Sat Feb 04, 2017 2:04 am

So we were out to dinner tonight and out of the blue the waitress asked a couple of the people at the table where they were from because of the different accents and my wife tells her she is from Poland and she then goes on to tell us her boyfriend is also Polish and how he'd love to take a trip to Poland to his homeland. Then she proceeds to tell us how she is thinking about taking him for his birthday because she found a really good fare of $500 round trip but she'll have to drive to Pittsburgh to get that fare so please don't tell me there isn't a market in Detroit for this kind of service because is just not true it's just the WCAA is not doing a very good job at selling Detroit to WOW Air and Icelandair if they did their research they'd know about this leakage. It's pretty profound when people are driving from Detroit to Pittsburgh to get a fare to Europe they can afford and why not have people drive to Detroit to access this type or service.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
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klm617
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 4

Sat Feb 04, 2017 2:09 am

hjulicher wrote:
Not all cargo can be carried on a passenger aircraft due to dangerous goods regulations as well as size. As Delta doesn't offer dedicated cargo aircraft, I don't see how this would impact Delta as you suggest. Additionally, the Cargo Airfreight markets is under severe pressure right now, and Fed-EX and UPS are the biggest players. Even a Lufthansa Cargo is a marginal player in this segment. I don't expect to see much growth in cargo.



So what you're saying then is Pittsburgh as a greater demand for cargo than Detroit because it can land twice weekly dedicated cargo flights and Detroit can't . I don't either in the Detroit market due to the fact that new entrants into the Detroit market are not pursued cargo or passenger and the proof is in the pudding. Yes but Delta does have a lot of cargo space in the bellies of their aircraft and they want to make sure that they are the only kid on the block for the cargo they can carry.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
thedetroitpole
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 4

Sat Feb 04, 2017 4:39 am

klm617 wrote:
So we were out to dinner tonight and out of the blue the waitress asked a couple of the people at the table where they were from because of the different accents and my wife tells her she is from Poland and she then goes on to tell us her boyfriend is also Polish and how he'd love to take a trip to Poland to his homeland. Then she proceeds to tell us how she is thinking about taking him for his birthday because she found a really good fare of $500 round trip but she'll have to drive to Pittsburgh to get that fare so please don't tell me there isn't a market in Detroit for this kind of service because is just not true it's just the WCAA is not doing a very good job at selling Detroit to WOW Air and Icelandair if they did their research they'd know about this leakage. It's pretty profound when people are driving from Detroit to Pittsburgh to get a fare to Europe they can afford and why not have people drive to Detroit to access this type or service.
I do not know if I have made this super clear, but I as well am from Poland, Warsaw to be exact. I travel between Poland and Detroit very frequently and would actually not prefer WOW or Icelandair, I prefer LOT, though, I am finding myself using Lufthansa a lot so I do not have to dread the long transit to Chicago or hit the miserable experience of Toronto, I could not tell you how many Polish, like myself, would be honoured to have a seat on LOT from Detroit. I believe strongly that it will happen one day, which I will agree with you on a better transit option to Poland, but the Authority can do what they can without leaving their financial restraints, Pittsburgh, I bet, has offered more money to WOW and I could bet you either Detroit was a near second or very close third or fourth behind Indianapolis and Columbus, but Pittsburgh is funneling a lot of money into their air service, which is why they have been beating us to the punch every time. I prefer to see LOT, first, but that is just me. :spin:
 
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flymco753
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 4

Sat Feb 04, 2017 4:43 am

I have an issue to complain about, how every week it's hard to find a seat to DTW from MCO, DL has been running full or oversold, NK and F9 were oversold, WN was full, I'm kinda excited for DL to add this 7th daily maybe that'll help alleviate congestion...point is the DTW-MCO city pair stinks lol, time to try TPA-DTW.
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klm617
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 4

Sat Feb 04, 2017 12:57 pm

thedetroitpole wrote:
klm617 wrote:
So we were out to dinner tonight and out of the blue the waitress asked a couple of the people at the table where they were from because of the different accents and my wife tells her she is from Poland and she then goes on to tell us her boyfriend is also Polish and how he'd love to take a trip to Poland to his homeland. Then she proceeds to tell us how she is thinking about taking him for his birthday because she found a really good fare of $500 round trip but she'll have to drive to Pittsburgh to get that fare so please don't tell me there isn't a market in Detroit for this kind of service because is just not true it's just the WCAA is not doing a very good job at selling Detroit to WOW Air and Icelandair if they did their research they'd know about this leakage. It's pretty profound when people are driving from Detroit to Pittsburgh to get a fare to Europe they can afford and why not have people drive to Detroit to access this type or service.
I do not know if I have made this super clear, but I as well am from Poland, Warsaw to be exact. I travel between Poland and Detroit very frequently and would actually not prefer WOW or Icelandair, I prefer LOT, though, I am finding myself using Lufthansa a lot so I do not have to dread the long transit to Chicago or hit the miserable experience of Toronto, I could not tell you how many Polish, like myself, would be honoured to have a seat on LOT from Detroit. I believe strongly that it will happen one day, which I will agree with you on a better transit option to Poland, but the Authority can do what they can without leaving their financial restraints, Pittsburgh, I bet, has offered more money to WOW and I could bet you either Detroit was a near second or very close third or fourth behind Indianapolis and Columbus, but Pittsburgh is funneling a lot of money into their air service, which is why they have been beating us to the punch every time. I prefer to see LOT, first, but that is just me. :spin:



I agree with you a lot is a far better choice for Poles want to fly to Poland. But my main point was that say many say there is no market in Detroit for a low cost option to Europe when there really is. People are driving as far as Pittsburgh to get a fare they can afford. I think the WCAA could really do more as far as marketing the airport but they are content with the status quo here and again Delta plays a big part in why some of these things never materiel.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
iFlyDTW
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 4

Sat Feb 04, 2017 2:51 pm

flymco753 wrote:
I have an issue to complain about, how every week it's hard to find a seat to DTW from MCO, DL has been running full or oversold, NK and F9 were oversold, WN was full, I'm kinda excited for DL to add this 7th daily maybe that'll help alleviate congestion...point is the DTW-MCO city pair stinks lol, time to try TPA-DTW.
Well on NK all year round the Florida flights suck. I have grandparents in Davenport, lately both TPA and MCO have been oversold, you'd be surprised how the bag fee doesn't stop some families from checking their bags. Sometimes you'll be able to catch a standby seat on TPA and MCO but for the most part the flights are full. Time to invest in another carrier on these routes perhaps?
 
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flymco753
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 4

Mon Feb 06, 2017 1:48 am

Took a peak at DL's schedule for the next month...I'm impressed.

DL has increased YYZ to A319's. IND will see a 757 regularly. Several seasonal mainline services return. CHS, DAY, GSO all included mainline services that aren't normal. I was particularly surprised that MSY will get a 739. I don't have to say more, take a look at the timetables it's pretty interesting.
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dtwpilot225
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 4

Mon Feb 06, 2017 2:08 am

Great to see! We may not get that many increases in flights but an increase in seats per flight is great
 
dtwpilot225
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 4

Mon Feb 06, 2017 2:09 am

flymco753 wrote:
Took a peak at DL's schedule for the next month...I'm impressed.

DL has increased YYZ to A319's. IND will see a 757 regularly. Several seasonal mainline services return. CHS, DAY, GSO all included mainline services that aren't normal. I was particularly surprised that MSY will get a 739. I don't have to say more, take a look at the timetables it's pretty interesting.

Where is a good time table to look at? Delta and sky team used to have a great downloadable timetable but now it's just that interactive map that I hate
 
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flymco753
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 4

Mon Feb 06, 2017 3:38 am

dtwpilot225 wrote:
flymco753 wrote:
Took a peak at DL's schedule for the next month...I'm impressed.

DL has increased YYZ to A319's. IND will see a 757 regularly. Several seasonal mainline services return. CHS, DAY, GSO all included mainline services that aren't normal. I was particularly surprised that MSY will get a 739. I don't have to say more, take a look at the timetables it's pretty interesting.

Where is a good time table to look at? Delta and sky team used to have a great downloadable timetable but now it's just that interactive map that I hate

http://www.delta.com/content/dam/delta- ... edules.pdf
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msycajun
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 4

Mon Feb 06, 2017 3:49 am

flymco753 wrote:
I was particularly surprised that MSY will get a 739. I don't have to say more, take a look at the timetables it's pretty interesting.


It's the first time I've seen the 739 on the route, but seems to be only for Mardi Gras/Carnival season.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 4

Mon Feb 06, 2017 11:34 am

Pictures of Metro Airport 1931-2008 by Detroit News.

http://www.detroitnews.com/picture-gall ... /71137208/
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iFlyDTW
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 4

Mon Feb 06, 2017 6:39 pm

I really believe the North needs more gates, RON is getting out of control. When the maintenance hangar opens that'll help but it's becoming a night time mad house. I believe the WCAAs newest master plan states that there is an option to expand either sides of the terminal, why not just build a new terminal for NK and maybe B6 or F9 where the existing Smith is and have a connector to the current North?
 
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compensateme
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 4

Mon Feb 06, 2017 7:07 pm

iFlyDTW wrote:
I really believe the North needs more gates, RON is getting out of control. When the maintenance hangar opens that'll help but it's becoming a night time mad house. I believe the WCAAs newest master plan states that there is an option to expand either sides of the terminal, why not just build a new terminal for NK and maybe B6 or F9 where the existing Smith is and have a connector to the current North?


Huh? DTW is horrifically overbuilt; the terminal facilities are operating at a fraction of the capacity they were built to handle. The North Terminal is only busy during the morning and evening push (and is a ghost town most rest of the day) but even then it has several vacant gates. RON parking is not a problem, there are oodles of airports around the country where aircraft are parked remotely and there's no reason the same can't be done at DTW. Even DL has used the L.C. Smith Terminal for RON parking in the past.

I don't know if we'll ever see the current passenger facilities expanded. Per the agreement signed between Northwest Airlines and Wayne County twenty years ago, there's a cap of the number of gates permitted at the North Terminal. This was a hot issue in the early 2000s, when NK was forecasting needs for 16 gates by the end of that decade, but obviously became a non-issue for a multitude of reasons. I heavily suspect that DL would be more willing to sublease gate space that it would be to signing off on expansion...
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iFlyDTW
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 4

Mon Feb 06, 2017 7:15 pm

compensateme wrote:
iFlyDTW wrote:
I don't know if we'll ever see the current passenger facilities expanded.
The master plan I believe options the North Terminal to open 5 more gates at either the north or south ends.
 
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compensateme
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 4

Mon Feb 06, 2017 8:51 pm

iFlyDTW wrote:
The master plan I believe options the North Terminal to open 5 more gates at either the north or south ends.


Master plans have little credence. You will never see a six-figure WCAA employee issue a report that says:

"Due to changes in local and national demographics, consolidation within the airline industry and national passenger air traffic volumes that have been well-below those forecasted twenty years ago, DTW has evolved into an overbuilt facility that will be more than sufficient to meet demand well into the distant future. We do not anticipate expansion to be necessary indefinitely."

They'd be out a job. Same's true of practically every other airport in the country -- master plans are more fantasy than reality, although a.net worships them like a Bible.
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reasonable
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 4

Tue Feb 07, 2017 4:13 pm

Detroit's 2016 passenger numbers are out:

2016: 34,401,254
2015: 33,440,112
+ 961,142

http://www.wcaa.us/Portals/WCAACorp/WCA ... port%20(CY)%20December%202016.pdf
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 4

Tue Feb 07, 2017 6:18 pm

There is a potential plan in place to add more RON parking spots and potentially more gates in the relatively near-term.

Once the new Airport Administrative Office Building attached to the North Terminal opens, the plan is to demolish the LC Smith and Berry terminals.
Multiple new RON / hardstand spots will become available on both north and south of the North Terminal.
3 additional narrowbody gates can be added to the north end of the North Terminal in the existing building shell once the Berry terminal is demolished.
Beyond that, any additional expansion would be to the southern end of the North Terminal, as they do not intend to extend northward as that area between there and the Delta terminals will be used for RON/hardstand aircraft parking.

After the LC Smith is demolished they can add 1-2 more narrowbody gate on the east side without expanding the building shell, but any further expansion of the building shell would be in the area where the LC Smith currently is currently situated. The core of the area where the LC Smith terminal is to be used for expanded/more efficient de-icing operations, RON/hardstand parking, and at some point a new FAA control tower down the road.

The reality is, they have opportunities to add additional gates without expanding the building envelope if necessary. Even now, the terminal is well under utilized.
If anyone, NK isn't going to be wanting to pay additional leases if they can easily just hardstand RONs.
 
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compensateme
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 4

Tue Feb 07, 2017 8:41 pm

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
Once the new Airport Administrative Office Building attached to the North Terminal opens, the plan is to demolish the LC Smith and Berry terminals.


The one snafu of Lester Robinson's legacy. In order to minimize cost (and thus please his tenants), Mr. Robinson kept most of the L.C. Smith and Berry Terminals standing, demolishing only what was necessary to complete construction of the North Terminal. Unfortunately, he underestimated the cost of keeping both structures standing, especially the L.C. Smith Terminal, which continued to house the WCAA offices (it's a large, multistory facility, with some of its upper level space not used since the 70s/80s): several years ago, the Free Press reported the annual utility bill was $4M-$7M and overall cost, including repair & maintenance, surpassed $10M. This is the event that pretty much lead to his outster.

3 additional narrowbody gates can be added to the north end of the North Terminal in the existing building shell once the Berry terminal is demolished.


It's actually four and believe it or not, circa 2006 WCAA was moving forward with plans to add these gates, bringing the total to 30. But shortly thereafter, when leases were being negotiated, most of the incumbent airlines opted for fewer space than they had in at L.C. Smith; of course, the local & global recession further reduced movements.

The reality is, they have opportunities to add additional gates without expanding the building envelope if necessary. Even now, the terminal is well under utilized.
If anyone, NK isn't going to be wanting to pay additional leases if they can easily just hardstand RONs.


Even though expanding the terminal to the north is a relatively minor project, it requires DL's approval since it pushes the complex over the contractual cap established between Northwest and Wayne County twenty years ago. As I mentioned earlier, I doubt DL would approve it -- more likely, it'd attempt to sublease some of its space. The money borrowed to build the new WCAA offices and "clean up" DTW (demolishing the L.C. Smith, Berry and other buidings) pushed the airport pass the $2B debt mark.
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GSP psgr
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 4

Tue Feb 07, 2017 8:44 pm

compensateme wrote:
klm617 wrote:
I do get your point but what I'm saying is that DTW is the third largest international hub in the system and one can not make me believe that there isn't enough feed through this hub to support 2 daily flights to LHR even more so now with the VS JV. You can't make me believe that the O&D from ATL-LHR is 4 times bigger that the DTW-LHR market and to the cost conscious traveler the only loyalty there is is to price now with the way alliances are structured they are more designed for corporate advantage rather than for the traveler..


It shouldn't surprise you; ATL continues to grow as DL's largest hub -- nearly three time's DTW's size. There was a time period in which DTW & ATL had equal LHR service, but that ship's sailed. Heck, ATL has surpassed DTW as the largest connection point to the southwestern USA (LAX, LAS, POHX) from many communities within the Northeast -- traffic flows it barely handled pre-merger. I've maintained for quite awhile that the model isn't sustainable for the long term. 1 - DL will be reluctant to commit to paying on billions of debt for ATL expansion when it's contractually obligated to the oodles of capacity that exist at DTW & MSP that are arguably more efficient; 2 - if fuel prices swell again, the model of flying people an extra 500+ miles erodes; 3 - if UA/AA can get their dodo together, they can yield flight schedules at similar pricing as DL that save significant time - and people will notice.

In the short term, it is what it is.


With fuel as cheap as it is, for the moment, Delta can create the domestic equivalent of the synergies that EK enjoys at Dubai. Over the long haul, I'd love to see some rebalancing of flows from ATL to DTW and MSP-the core of the DL domestic terminal complex is badly undersized (with no easy fix) for the amount of traffic they're ramming through. ATL is actually a pretty unpleasant experience as a connecting passenger, particularly during the evening transatlantic rush; I have to fly through tomorrow as DL doesn't have a midmoring GSP-DTW, and I'm dreading it. DTW could handle another 5-7 million passengers a year and relieve the ATL crush, but right now, low fuel costs make the synergies at ATL hard to compete with.

I was thinking that perhaps we'll see a DTW-SJC to cater to the automotive tech crowd up in Oakland County.
 
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 4

Tue Feb 07, 2017 8:50 pm

I was under the impression the 3 additional gates at the northeastern end of North was more or less concrete ramp work and hanging jetbridges once the Berry comes down.
 
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flymco753
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 4

Tue Feb 07, 2017 8:54 pm

GSP psgr wrote:
compensateme wrote:
klm617 wrote:
I was thinking that perhaps we'll see a DTW-SJC to cater to the automotive tech crowd up in Oakland County.
NK is adding OAK, in response DL has added at SFO, unfortunately among other markets that need nonstop flights, SJC is overflown by 2 hubs that already have sufficient SJC service. The only way I see DL adding SNA or SJC/OAK, and SMF is if NK does it and becomes successful at it, all 3 routes have failed due to poor timing, even though flights ran generally full. About GSP, DL is finally coming along with first class on the route and a few 717's a month. CHS will get a few weeks of a 717, other markets are similar like BHM, MHT, and ROC.
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GSP psgr
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 4

Tue Feb 07, 2017 9:34 pm

flymco753 wrote:
GSP psgr wrote:
compensateme wrote:
About GSP, DL is finally coming along with first class on the route and a few 717's a month. CHS will get a few weeks of a 717, other markets are similar like BHM, MHT, and ROC.


I noticed the CR9s, which are an improvement for sure. I just didn't want to have to catch the 550A (OMG O'Clock!), and the 1pm flight gets me into New York too late. Le sigh. ATL mid-morning is at least among the quieter times at that madhouse; I refuse to transit there after 3pm or before 930am.
 
GSP psgr
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 4

Tue Feb 07, 2017 9:34 pm

flymco753 wrote:
GSP psgr wrote:
compensateme wrote:
About GSP, DL is finally coming along with first class on the route and a few 717's a month. CHS will get a few weeks of a 717, other markets are similar like BHM, MHT, and ROC.


I noticed the CR9s, which are an improvement for sure. I just didn't want to have to catch the 550A (OMG O'Clock!), and the 1pm flight gets me into New York too late. Le sigh. ATL mid-morning is at least among the quieter times at that madhouse; I refuse to transit there after 3pm or before 930am.
 
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 4

Tue Feb 07, 2017 9:35 pm

flymco753 wrote:
GSP psgr wrote:
compensateme wrote:
About GSP, DL is finally coming along with first class on the route and a few 717's a month. CHS will get a few weeks of a 717, other markets are similar like BHM, MHT, and ROC.


I noticed the CR9s, which are an improvement for sure. I just didn't want to have to catch the 550A (OMG O'Clock!), and the 1pm flight gets me into New York too late. Le sigh. ATL mid-morning is at least among the quieter times at that madhouse; I refuse to transit there after 3pm or before 930am.
 
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 4

Tue Feb 07, 2017 9:35 pm

flymco753 wrote:
GSP psgr wrote:
compensateme wrote:
About GSP, DL is finally coming along with first class on the route and a few 717's a month. CHS will get a few weeks of a 717, other markets are similar like BHM, MHT, and ROC.


I noticed the CR9s, which are an improvement for sure. I just didn't want to have to catch the 550A (OMG O'Clock!), and the 1pm flight gets me into New York too late. Le sigh. ATL mid-morning is at least among the quieter times at that madhouse; I refuse to transit there after 3pm or before 930am.
 
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compensateme
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 4

Tue Feb 07, 2017 10:17 pm

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
I was under the impression the 3 additional gates at the northeastern end of North was more or less concrete ramp work and hanging jetbridges once the Berry comes down.


http://archives.californiaaviation.org/ ... 29159.html

Northwest agreed to support the North Terminal ... in exchange for several conditions ... the new terminal is restricted to a maximum of 29 gates. The gates are only for narrow-body jets ... Gates for wide-body jets ... could be built, but each would then take the place of up to two of the allotted 29 gates.


FWIW, NW's original agreement with Wayne County mandated the demolition of the Davey Terminal concourses (and gave management responsibility of such to NW) and required the terminal to be renovated by 2009 (when other airlines' 50-year leases were expiring) as a replacement for the L.C. Smith and Berry Terminals. The 2001 amendment gave DTW the flexibility to completely demolish the Davey Terminal complex and build new (DTW insisted it was cheaper to rebuild than to renovate).

NW later approved the addition of a FIS, but the rest of the restrictions stand. When the terminal was nearing completion, Lester Robinson touted the future four gate expansion, but acknowledged the 27 gate cap (29 - two widebody-capable) may be an obstacle.

Expanding the North Terminal would likely cost in excess of $50M, which is minimal (but still $50M), but IMO, DL would be more likely to sublease its space than to sign off on such project.
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 4

Tue Feb 07, 2017 11:20 pm

The whole agreement was pretty ridiculous on multiple levels, in an era before media/internet/public transparency and under a whole slew of a different cast of characters. I'd be interested to know how much of it actually still stands and/or has been renegotiated.

WCAA has budgeted over $13 M in 2018-2020 to demolish the Davey & LC Smith Terminal
They have also allocated $20M in 2018 for the 3-gate expansion to the North Terminal so it looks like its going to happen.
http://www.wcaa.us/Portals/WCAACorp/WCA ... %20CIP.pdf

The master plan revision also confirms they are adding 3 gates to the North in the near=term and will satisfy projected demand through 2035.
This includes 29 contact gates + 20 RON/hardstand parking positions - 5 on the north + 15 south of the North Terminal.
http://detroitmetroairportmasterplan.or ... eting4.pdf

Any further expansion that would expand the current building envelope of the North Terminal is going to cost at a minimum $250M+ and any addition of actual gates would come at the loss of RON/hardstand parking positions. So there would have to be a need of additional gates versus overnight parking positions to justify the cost.
 
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 4

Tue Feb 07, 2017 11:27 pm

compensateme wrote:
PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
I was under the impression the 3 additional gates at the northeastern end of North was more or less concrete ramp work and hanging jetbridges once the Berry comes down.


http://archives.californiaaviation.org/ ... 29159.html

Northwest agreed to support the North Terminal ... in exchange for several conditions ... the new terminal is restricted to a maximum of 29 gates. The gates are only for narrow-body jets ... Gates for wide-body jets ... could be built, but each would then take the place of up to two of the allotted 29 gates.


FWIW, NW's original agreement with Wayne County mandated the demolition of the Davey Terminal concourses (and gave management responsibility of such to NW) and required the terminal to be renovated by 2009 (when other airlines' 50-year leases were expiring) as a replacement for the L.C. Smith and Berry Terminals. The 2001 amendment gave DTW the flexibility to completely demolish the Davey Terminal complex and build new (DTW insisted it was cheaper to rebuild than to renovate).

NW later approved the addition of a FIS, but the rest of the restrictions stand. When the terminal was nearing completion, Lester Robinson touted the future four gate expansion, but acknowledged the 27 gate cap (29 - two widebody-capable) may be an obstacle.

Expanding the North Terminal would likely cost in excess of $50M, which is minimal (but still $50M), but IMO, DL would be more likely to sublease its space than to sign off on such project.



My only issue with that agreement is that Delta has no where near the commitment to enhancing service at Detroit as Northwest which in some way should void that agreement. At the time it was signed Detroit was Northwest's Premiere hub now it is Delta's 3rd largest with no real commitment to grow this market but over time to reduce the amount of flights that serve Detroit little by little..
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 4

Wed Feb 08, 2017 12:11 am

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
WCAA has budgeted over $13 M in 2018-2020 to demolish the Davey & LC Smith Terminal
They have also allocated $20M in 2018 for the 3-gate expansion to the North Terminal so it looks like its going to happen. ... The master plan revision also confirms they are adding 3 gates to the North in the near=term and will satisfy projected demand through 2035.


The allocated funds to demolish the L.C. Smith and Davey Terminals derive from a 2014 bond issue. The allocated funds to expand the North Terminal derive from a potential bond issue this fall, the bulk of it which will be used to reconstruct 3L/21R. Per the budget book, one of the three gates will be widebody-capable, which is why the airport is pursing a three gate expansion instead of four. I anticipate such plan will be met with heavy opposition (and it'll cost more than $20M).

I also noticed in the budget book that DTW plans to overhaul North's retail & dining concessions this fall into a "state-of-the-art" experience. IMO, this will be hard to do given the steep rent discounts DTW's had to offer its North's tenants since its opening. I actually like the mix of shops & restaurants (boy, eight years has really flown by -- it seems like only yesterday the terminal opened; the six years I spent in L.C. Smith post-Midfield Opening seemed like an eternity) -- probably one of the best mix of price-value in the nation. We'll probably wind up with the privilege of paying $15 to order a mediocre hamburger from some fancy mocked up place via an iPad.

klm617 wrote:
My only issue with that agreement is that Delta has no where near the commitment to enhancing service at Detroit as Northwest which in some way should void that agreement. At the time it was signed Detroit was Northwest's Premiere hub now it is Delta's 3rd largest with no real commitment to grow this market but over time to reduce the amount of flights that serve Detroit little by little..


- By AMS (the industry standard for measuring size), DTW has been DL's third largest hub (behind ATL & JFK) since the merger closed. It's well ahead of the fourth, MSP.
- It's DL's second largest hub by number of flights. Nothing's changed here.
- It's neck-and-neck with MSP for the #2 spot in terms of physical capacity as well as emplacements -- depending on the month, one's slightly larger than the other. Again, nothing new here. In fact, this has been true going back over 20 years. That's incredibly remarkable when you consider the population & economic growth of Metro Detroit vs. the twin cities over the past 20 years.
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flymco753
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 4

Wed Feb 08, 2017 12:26 am

If they create an international gate at the north end of the terminal they could move RJ with AA, thus if DTW gained another Oneworld or Star Alliance airline, they can be matched, but with the expansion would it make more sense for NK to move to the north end? What would be a hypothetical future layout of the north terminal? D3+5 Intl. D1-D6 United+Air Canada. D8+9 CUTE. D10-D14 AA. D15 B6. D16 F9. D17-D19 CUTE. D20-D23 WN. D24-D26 CUTE. D28-D33 NK.
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klm617
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 4

Wed Feb 08, 2017 1:13 am

compensateme wrote:
PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
WCAA has budgeted over $13 M in 2018-2020 to demolish the Davey & LC Smith Terminal
They have also allocated $20M in 2018 for the 3-gate expansion to the North Terminal so it looks like its going to happen. ... The master plan revision also confirms they are adding 3 gates to the North in the near=term and will satisfy projected demand through 2035.


The allocated funds to demolish the L.C. Smith and Davey Terminals derive from a 2014 bond issue. The allocated funds to expand the North Terminal derive from a potential bond issue this fall, the bulk of it which will be used to reconstruct 3L/21R. Per the budget book, one of the three gates will be widebody-capable, which is why the airport is pursing a three gate expansion instead of four. I anticipate such plan will be met with heavy opposition (and it'll cost more than $20M).

I also noticed in the budget book that DTW plans to overhaul North's retail & dining concessions this fall into a "state-of-the-art" experience. IMO, this will be hard to do given the steep rent discounts DTW's had to offer its North's tenants since its opening. I actually like the mix of shops & restaurants (boy, eight years has really flown by -- it seems like only yesterday the terminal opened; the six years I spent in L.C. Smith post-Midfield Opening seemed like an eternity) -- probably one of the best mix of price-value in the nation. We'll probably wind up with the privilege of paying $15 to order a mediocre hamburger from some fancy mocked up place via an iPad.

klm617 wrote:
My only issue with that agreement is that Delta has no where near the commitment to enhancing service at Detroit as Northwest which in some way should void that agreement. At the time it was signed Detroit was Northwest's Premiere hub now it is Delta's 3rd largest with no real commitment to grow this market but over time to reduce the amount of flights that serve Detroit little by little..


- By AMS (the industry standard for measuring size), DTW has been DL's third largest hub (behind ATL & JFK) since the merger closed. It's well ahead of the fourth, MSP.
- It's DL's second largest hub by number of flights. Nothing's changed here.
- It's neck-and-neck with MSP for the #2 spot in terms of physical capacity as well as emplacements -- depending on the month, one's slightly larger than the other. Again, nothing new here. In fact, this has been true going back over 20 years. That's incredibly remarkable when you consider the population & economic growth of Metro Detroit vs. the twin cities over the past 20 years.


But this summer DTW and MSP will almost have the same number of seats. You would think they would have added the 3 extra weekly to Detroit because lets face it geographically speaking DTW is the best connecting point for almost every market east of SLC except for the markets up and down the East coast but yet the gave MSP the additional seat showing again their commitment to MSP rather than Detroit.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
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flymco753
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 4

Wed Feb 08, 2017 2:32 am

I was reviewing the DL flight schedule between MCO-DTW over the upcoming summer. Seems like a huge capacity decrease as opposed to last summer, yet all airlines on this route remain relatively full even off peak travel season, and in most cases are oversold. Any chance that the 2 A320's or 1 757 scheduled on the route turns into the A321? I'm eagerly waiting for this aircraft on this route.
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flymco753
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 4

Wed Feb 08, 2017 4:19 pm

klm617 wrote:
compensateme wrote:
PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
WCAA has budgeted over $13 M in 2018-2020 to demolish the Davey & LC Smith Terminal
They have also allocated $20M in 2018 for the 3-gate expansion to the North Terminal so it looks like its going to happen. ... The master plan revision also confirms they are adding 3 gates to the North in the near=term and will satisfy projected demand through 2035.


The allocated funds to demolish the L.C. Smith and Davey Terminals derive from a 2014 bond issue. The allocated funds to expand the North Terminal derive from a potential bond issue this fall, the bulk of it which will be used to reconstruct 3L/21R. Per the budget book, one of the three gates will be widebody-capable, which is why the airport is pursing a three gate expansion instead of four. I anticipate such plan will be met with heavy opposition (and it'll cost more than $20M).

I also noticed in the budget book that DTW plans to overhaul North's retail & dining concessions this fall into a "state-of-the-art" experience. IMO, this will be hard to do given the steep rent discounts DTW's had to offer its North's tenants since its opening. I actually like the mix of shops & restaurants (boy, eight years has really flown by -- it seems like only yesterday the terminal opened; the six years I spent in L.C. Smith post-Midfield Opening seemed like an eternity) -- probably one of the best mix of price-value in the nation. We'll probably wind up with the privilege of paying $15 to order a mediocre hamburger from some fancy mocked up place via an iPad.

klm617 wrote:
My only issue with that agreement is that Delta has no where near the commitment to enhancing service at Detroit as Northwest which in some way should void that agreement. At the time it was signed Detroit was Northwest's Premiere hub now it is Delta's 3rd largest with no real commitment to grow this market but over time to reduce the amount of flights that serve Detroit little by little..


- By AMS (the industry standard for measuring size), DTW has been DL's third largest hub (behind ATL & JFK) since the merger closed. It's well ahead of the fourth, MSP.
- It's DL's second largest hub by number of flights. Nothing's changed here.
- It's neck-and-neck with MSP for the #2 spot in terms of physical capacity as well as emplacements -- depending on the month, one's slightly larger than the other. Again, nothing new here. In fact, this has been true going back over 20 years. That's incredibly remarkable when you consider the population & economic growth of Metro Detroit vs. the twin cities over the past 20 years.


But this summer DTW and MSP will almost have the same number of seats. You would think they would have added the 3 extra weekly to Detroit because lets face it geographically speaking DTW is the best connecting point for almost every market east of SLC except for the markets up and down the East coast but yet the gave MSP the additional seat showing again their commitment to MSP rather than Detroit.
People prefer MSP over DTW. It's a great airport for its age and if I'm flying from the east to west coast, to a point where no nonstop flights are offered, I'm going to chose to connect over MSP, and also the amount of connectivity to the west from MSP is sufficient.
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compensateme
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 4

Wed Feb 08, 2017 5:50 pm

klm617 wrote:
But this summer DTW and MSP will almost have the same number of seats. You would think they would have added the 3 extra weekly to Detroit because lets face it geographically speaking DTW is the best connecting point for almost every market east of SLC except for the markets up and down the East coast but yet the gave MSP the additional seat showing again their commitment to MSP rather than Detroit.


Incorrect. DTW & MSP are stagnant comparing year-over-year. You've long been upset over a press release DL's marketing team issued to the Minneapolis/St. Paul market that merely highlighted service changes. Every single hub has service changes every year and DTW is no exception: off the top of my head, CUN is being extended to daily, MTY is going to mainline, a second daily flight -- operated by AM -- is being added to MEX & MTY, LAX is going to 7x daily, etc. The latter is notable -- post-9/11 and pre-merger, NW typically operated DTW-LAX 5x daily and MSP-LAX 9x daily; this year, DL's operating both routes 7x daily. There's also only a minor spread in seat capacity between the two routes -- pre-merger, NW was operated more than twice the capacity from MSP during the summer months.

As far as DTW & MSP having the same number of seats... since the NW-RC merger in 1986, MSP historically offered more seats -- it wasn't until the mid-2000s that DTW passed it, and over the past decade, the two have flipped back and forth. It's nothing new.

flymco753 wrote:
I was reviewing the DL flight schedule between MCO-DTW over the upcoming summer. Seems like a huge capacity decrease as opposed to last summer, yet all airlines on this route remain relatively full even off peak travel season, and in most cases are oversold. Any chance that the 2 A320's or 1 757 scheduled on the route turns into the A321? I'm eagerly waiting for this aircraft on this route.


It's a decrease, but not a huge one. I wouldn't expect DL to increase capacity in the market -- average fares are about the healthiest they've ever been; slightly higher than MSP (a decade ago, NW's average fare at DTW was nearly half that at MSP) and 25% higher than AA/UA @ ORD.
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 4

Sat Feb 11, 2017 7:36 pm

F9 added a second daily frequency between MCO-DTW on an A320 in March/April. This raises the route to 13 flights on Saturday's and 12 peak day flights. 7x DL (6-753, 75D/H) 3x NK (321, 2-32S) 2x F9 (321, 320) and WN (73W).
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iFlyDTW
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 4

Sat Feb 11, 2017 9:04 pm

You know what's funny, NK adds DTW-OAK and DL doesn't respond in any way. F9 adds CVG-MSP and than there's 2 daily mainline over the summer. Just comes to show you how other airlines at DTW will keep winning more share. NK already has a decent share and with SEA and OAK happening, DFW, LAX going twice daily, IAH being upgraded they're really seeming committed. I believe someone posted about BNA being added, I would say that's a good chance.
 
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 4

Sat Feb 11, 2017 9:10 pm

^BNA is probable for NK. Some factors to consider, the PDEW is healthy and the market is growing. Yields are okay, but not all that great, generally round trip tickets are in excess of $300+ for the distance, so NK could sell tickets for $165 and locals on both ends will buy them. Some will tell you BNA is not probable but if BNA opens DTW IMHO is bound to be in the first round of additions.
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compensateme
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 4

Sat Feb 11, 2017 10:01 pm

iFlyDTW wrote:
You know what's funny, NK adds DTW-OAK and DL doesn't respond in any way. F9 adds CVG-MSP and than there's 2 daily mainline over the summer. Just comes to show you how other airlines at DTW will keep winning more share. NK already has a decent share and with SEA and OAK happening, DFW, LAX going twice daily, IAH being upgraded they're really seeming committed. I believe someone posted about BNA being added, I would say that's a good chance.


The service changes DL's planning on CVG/MSP were scheduled long before F9 entered the market. The changes equate into a small capacity increase (due to a reduction in frequency) and are a derivative of the decreasing number of 50-seaters in the DL fleet.

Regarding DTW/SFO, planned capacity on DTW/SFO this summer is about the same as last year (3x757, 3x753 in 2017 vs. 2x739, 757, 753, 2x763 last year). Remember: DL carries less than half the local market DTW/SFO and commands an average fare of $420, making it one of the strongest performing routes in the network. UA, which carries about 15% of the market, is targeting SFO POS and early bookings are likely poor as they regularly offer sub-$100 OW sale fares in the market. NK will probably generate more passengers than it "steals," and most of the passengers it "steals" will likely be price-sensitive ones making a stop on other airlines. In other words... it's not surprising DL hasn't responded to UA & NK, although if they start "stealing" DL's traffic, that will change.
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cvgComair
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 4

Sat Feb 11, 2017 11:40 pm

compensateme wrote:
The service changes DL's planning on CVG/MSP were scheduled long before F9 entered the market. The changes equate into a small capacity increase (due to a reduction in frequency) and are a derivative of the decreasing number of 50-seaters in the DL fleet.


That's not what he said. He was NOT referring to the extra CRJ-900's, which have been in the schedule for quite some time, he was talking about DL adding 2 MAINLINE flights to MSP. A while ago, DL added 717 mainline on CVG-DTW, but was recently shifted to MSP for the Spring (and DCA, most likely against WN at BWI), this happened right after the WN announcement. Then, DL subsequently added a second daily A319 flight last week when F9's CVG-MSP flights became available for booking. Delta is actually going back to CRJ-200's on CVG-DTW in the spring and fall (just a Summer adjustment), while maintaining CRJ-900's to MSP through the end of the schedule! The 717 will currently stay on CVG-DTW through the end of the schedule, but I would not be surprised to see it shifted back to MSP once F9 extends its schedule. Its pretty clear these were moves against F9 as they are more than the CRJ-200 elimination/summer increases that DTW is seeing. To top off, it just so happens the extra flights stop the day F9's current schedule ends. :-)

I do have to agree with you on the SFO/OAK flights though, DL is targeting business travelers in DTW with its SFO flights, then fills the rest of the plane with connecting pax. Delta is most likely not as concerned with DTW price-sensitive SFO-bound pax, which NK can easily take advantage of. Whereas F9 is trying to tackle the price sensitive business market in CVG, hence daily LGA/SFO/LAX and now MSP. Delta has recently tried to attract price-sensitve business passengers at CVG with lower fares, as WN/F9 are now directly challenging DL, who no longer has the dominance at CVG that it currently enjoys at DTW. That is why you see DL respond at CVG, while not responding at DTW.
 
dtwpilot225
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 4

Sun Feb 12, 2017 2:35 am

Although it may seem like delta favors msp over dtw sometimes, I think dtw has a very bright future once the airline starts taking deliveries of the 350. The CEO has stated that instead of one daily flight to Asian cities, with joint ventures we could see 2 or 3. All those extra passengers will be connecting on delta planes so I expect the next 5 years to be solid
 
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compensateme
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 4

Sun Feb 12, 2017 5:55 am

cvgComair wrote:
compensateme wrote:
The service changes DL's planning on CVG/MSP were scheduled long before F9 entered the market. The changes equate into a small capacity increase (due to a reduction in frequency) and are a derivative of the decreasing number of 50-seaters in the DL fleet.


That's not what he said. He was NOT referring to the extra CRJ-900's, which have been in the schedule for quite some time, he was talking about DL adding 2 MAINLINE flights to MSP. A while ago, DL added 717 mainline on CVG-DTW, but was recently shifted to MSP for the Spring (and DCA, most likely against WN at BWI), this happened right after the WN announcement. Then, DL subsequently added a second daily A319 flight last week when F9's CVG-MSP flights became available for booking. Delta is actually going back to CRJ-200's on CVG-DTW in the spring and fall (just a Summer adjustment), while maintaining CRJ-900's to MSP through the end of the schedule! The 717 will currently stay on CVG-DTW through the end of the schedule, but I would not be surprised to see it shifted back to MSP once F9 extends its schedule. Its pretty clear these were moves against F9 as they are more than the CRJ-200 elimination/summer increases that DTW is seeing. To top off, it just so happens the extra flights stop the day F9's current schedule ends. :-)


Here was DL's weekday schedule CVG-MSP last May:
7 10a 8 10a DL3946 0 X67 CRJ
9 15a 10 19a DL4520 0 X67 CRJ
11 30a 12 28p DL3680 0 X6 CR9
1 29p 2 30p DL4550 0 X6 CRJ
5 32p 6 39p DL1585 0 X6 M88
8 10p 9 08p DL4081 0 X6 CR9 451

Here is DL's weekday schedule CVG-MSP this May:
2xCRJ, CR9, 717, 319

Do you happen to notice something? There's fewer seats in the market this year than last. Yes, most people prefer flying in a mainline jet over a regional jet but less capacity = less capacity. The upgauging is a derivative of DL phasing out a large number of 50-seats this year, not F9's entry into the market.
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klm617
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 4

Sun Feb 12, 2017 9:30 pm

DL ATL-MAN APR 0>0.3

Well there you have it folks why Delta didn't add DTW-MAN because they had planned all along to add 10 weekly out of ATL rather than flow those passengers over Detroit to the upper Midwest markets. To bad they aren't doing the same thing when they start to decrease the seat out of Detroit to Asia those passenger will be directed away from Detroit in favor of other Delta hubs in their system.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
BDL757
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 4

Sun Feb 12, 2017 10:20 pm

klm617 wrote:
DL ATL-MAN APR 0>0.3

Well there you have it folks why Delta didn't add DTW-MAN because they had planned all along to add 10 weekly out of ATL rather than flow those passengers over Detroit to the upper Midwest markets. To bad they aren't doing the same thing when they start to decrease the seat out of Detroit to Asia those passenger will be directed away from Detroit in favor of other Delta hubs in their system.


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