Jshank83
Posts: 2898
Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2016 2:23 pm

Re: The Rest Of Ohio - 2017

Tue Dec 12, 2017 2:43 am

flymco753 wrote:
I agree WN will expand, I just don't think it will be to MCI. They don't have CLE, CMH or PIT service now, so I don't see CVG being any different. In my mind it would be even less likely that the others because they already have DL to CVG. This might change after the new terminal, but that is still years away.
There’s only 2 ways WN’s operation at CVG, it’ll either be successful and they’ll run a similar operation to CMH and IND or it’ll be hard for them to find a niche and it’ll be more like CLE or DTW’s service, there’s no buffer or in between here.[/quote]

As long as DL/F9/G4 keep a decent sized operation there I think it will be more of the latter. I am just not sure how much headway they can make being so late to the game at CVG until someone else shrinks or a lot of time goes by.
 
ADrum23
Posts: 1789
Joined: Fri Jul 14, 2017 11:54 pm

Re: The Rest Of Ohio - 2017

Tue Dec 12, 2017 2:54 am

Jshank83 wrote:
flymco753 wrote:
I agree WN will expand, I just don't think it will be to MCI. They don't have CLE, CMH or PIT service now, so I don't see CVG being any different. In my mind it would be even less likely that the others because they already have DL to CVG. This might change after the new terminal, but that is still years away.
There’s only 2 ways WN’s operation at CVG, it’ll either be successful and they’ll run a similar operation to CMH and IND or it’ll be hard for them to find a niche and it’ll be more like CLE or DTW’s service, there’s no buffer or in between here.


As long as DL/F9/G4 keep a decent sized operation there I think it will be more of the latter. I am just not sure how much headway they can make being so late to the game at CVG until someone else shrinks or a lot of time goes by.[/quote]

WN has a loyal following. Not saying they’ll for sure be successful, but no one airline is dominant anymore at CVG, so they could carve out a nice niche there. At least as large as CLE.

Honestly, at the end of the day, would most flyers prefer G4/F9 over WN?
 
cvgComair
Posts: 2040
Joined: Thu Jul 07, 2016 3:48 pm

Re: The Rest Of Ohio - 2017

Tue Dec 12, 2017 3:27 am

ADrum23 wrote:
Jshank83 wrote:
flymco753 wrote:
I agree WN will expand, I just don't think it will be to MCI. They don't have CLE, CMH or PIT service now, so I don't see CVG being any different. In my mind it would be even less likely that the others because they already have DL to CVG. This might change after the new terminal, but that is still years away.
There’s only 2 ways WN’s operation at CVG, it’ll either be successful and they’ll run a similar operation to CMH and IND or it’ll be hard for them to find a niche and it’ll be more like CLE or DTW’s service, there’s no buffer or in between here.


As long as DL/F9/G4 keep a decent sized operation there I think it will be more of the latter. I am just not sure how much headway they can make being so late to the game at CVG until someone else shrinks or a lot of time goes by.

WN has a loyal following. Not saying they’ll for sure be successful, but no one airline is dominant anymore at CVG, so they could carve out a nice niche there. At least as large as CLE.

Honestly, at the end of the day, would most flyers prefer G4/F9 over WN?

I think G4/F9 are attracting very different fliers than WN/DL, G4/F9 are courting fliers that previously drove/never flew before, WN/DL are getting business pax/existing fliers. WN is a high service airline with reasonable fares because of competition, much like DL. The real competition is DL vs WN. For people with medallion status/Delta card holders, DL is the obvious choice with their larger network, lounge access in CVG, and free bags. For other fliers, the bag issue is pretty easily solved by using the Delta card (just watch the Delta Check-In area, many fliers use it). I can't say what will happen long term, but my bet is that 5 years from now, G4/F9/DL/WN will all be carrying more passengers than they are now. I think WN CVG ops will look at lot like CLE was a year or two ago, nothing huge, but giving full access to their network. I don't think WN's growth will be inhibited by other airlines, nor will other airlines be inhibited by WN growing. Who knows how long the +15% growth can be sustained, but it looks like 2018 will equal, if not top the growth rate from 2017.
 
DeltaRules
Posts: 4966
Joined: Sat Sep 01, 2001 11:57 am

Re: The Rest Of Ohio - 2017

Tue Dec 12, 2017 3:40 am

ADrum23 wrote:
Jshank83 wrote:
flymco753 wrote:
I agree WN will expand, I just don't think it will be to MCI. They don't have CLE, CMH or PIT service now, so I don't see CVG being any different. In my mind it would be even less likely that the others because they already have DL to CVG. This might change after the new terminal, but that is still years away.
There’s only 2 ways WN’s operation at CVG, it’ll either be successful and they’ll run a similar operation to CMH and IND or it’ll be hard for them to find a niche and it’ll be more like CLE or DTW’s service, there’s no buffer or in between here.


As long as DL/F9/G4 keep a decent sized operation there I think it will be more of the latter. I am just not sure how much headway they can make being so late to the game at CVG until someone else shrinks or a lot of time goes by.


WN has a loyal following. Not saying they’ll for sure be successful, but no one airline is dominant anymore at CVG, so they could carve out a nice niche there. At least as large as CLE.

Honestly, at the end of the day, would most flyers prefer G4/F9 over WN?[/quote]

But does it have that loyalty at CVG? In some cases, WN is as expensive as the legacies.
A310/319/320/321/333, ARJ, BN2, B717/722/73S/733/734/735/73G/738/739/744/757/753/767/763/764/777, CR1/2/7/9, DH6, 328, EM2/ERJ/E70/E75/E90, F28/100, J31, L10/12/15, DC9/D93/D94/D95/M80/M88/M90/D10, SF3, SST
 
flyguy89
Posts: 2567
Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2009 6:43 pm

Re: The Rest Of Ohio - 2017

Tue Dec 12, 2017 5:49 am

ADrum23 wrote:
Jshank83 wrote:
flymco753 wrote:
I agree WN will expand, I just don't think it will be to MCI. They don't have CLE, CMH or PIT service now, so I don't see CVG being any different. In my mind it would be even less likely that the others because they already have DL to CVG. This might change after the new terminal, but that is still years away.

There’s only 2 ways WN’s operation at CVG, it’ll either be successful and they’ll run a similar operation to CMH and IND or it’ll be hard for them to find a niche and it’ll be more like CLE or DTW’s service, there’s no buffer or in between here.


As long as DL/F9/G4 keep a decent sized operation there I think it will be more of the latter. I am just not sure how much headway they can make being so late to the game at CVG until someone else shrinks or a lot of time goes by.

WN has a loyal following. Not saying they’ll for sure be successful, but no one airline is dominant anymore at CVG, so they could carve out a nice niche there. At least as large as CLE.

Honestly, at the end of the day, would most flyers prefer G4/F9 over WN?

Agreed. I don't think WN has any grand plans for CVG. In the end, Cincinnati was a big hole that WN needed to plug into their network which also allowed them to close down an under-performing station (DAY). There may be a couple opportunistic adds over the next few years, but that's about it...I don't see them wanting to pick fights with DL and F9/G4.
 
Briancw
Posts: 65
Joined: Thu Mar 02, 2017 12:55 pm

Re: The Rest Of Ohio - 2017

Tue Dec 12, 2017 4:55 pm

Joseph Nardone has been selected to Replace Elaine Roberts as CEO of the CRAA.

Link here: http://www.dispatch.com/business/201712 ... -authority

LinkedIn here: https://www.linkedin.com/in/joe-nardone-319b7a27
 
topguncnod
Posts: 53
Joined: Tue May 30, 2017 1:46 am

Re: The Rest Of Ohio - 2017

Tue Dec 12, 2017 6:44 pm

Looks like DL's CVG-SEA flight it bookable as daily starting March 5th ( few exceptions being Tuesdays) and currently showing daily as far out as booking allows (November 5th). Also, it looks like that it's been up gauged to a 737 from the original A319 starting in March. Is this similar to 2016? Or signs of SEA going daily?
 
cvgComair
Posts: 2040
Joined: Thu Jul 07, 2016 3:48 pm

Re: The Rest Of Ohio - 2017

Tue Dec 12, 2017 7:50 pm

topguncnod wrote:
Looks like DL's CVG-SEA flight it bookable as daily starting March 5th ( few exceptions being Tuesdays) and currently showing daily as far out as booking allows (November 5th). Also, it looks like that it's been up gauged to a 737 from the original A319 starting in March. Is this similar to 2016? Or signs of SEA going daily?

It’s signs of it going daily, years past it started in June and ended in Aug/Sept/Oct, looks to be going year round now.
 
john7165
Posts: 29
Joined: Sat Mar 05, 2016 7:01 pm

Re: The Rest Of Ohio - 2017

Tue Dec 12, 2017 7:56 pm

CMH has hired a new CEO to replace Elaine Roberts. His name is Jerry Nardone and comes to Columbus from an executive position with Detroit Metro airports.

https://www.bizjournals.com/columbus/ne ... -much.html
 
topguncnod
Posts: 53
Joined: Tue May 30, 2017 1:46 am

Re: The Rest Of Ohio - 2017

Tue Dec 12, 2017 9:39 pm

Also looking out in to June 2018- CVG-LAS up gauged to 737-900 and daily. CVG-LAX 1x per day on 757 and 1x on the typical 737-800. CVG-BOS 2x daily on MD-90 and 2x on CRJ-900. CVG-MCO 2x daily on 737-800. All of these are on larger planes than in 2016 I'm pretty sure.
 
User avatar
Cvgspotter15
Posts: 361
Joined: Sat May 13, 2017 6:14 pm

Re: The Rest Of Ohio - 2017

Tue Dec 12, 2017 9:55 pm

topguncnod wrote:
Also looking out in to June 2018- CVG-LAS up gauged to 737-900 and daily. CVG-LAX 1x per day on 757 and 1x on the typical 737-800. CVG-BOS 2x daily on MD-90 and 2x on CRJ-900. CVG-MCO 2x daily on 737-800. All of these are on larger planes than in 2016 I'm pretty sure.


Yep cvgcomair mentioned this earlier.
 
cvgComair
Posts: 2040
Joined: Thu Jul 07, 2016 3:48 pm

Re: The Rest Of Ohio - 2017

Tue Dec 12, 2017 11:07 pm

topguncnod wrote:
Also looking out in to June 2018- CVG-LAS up gauged to 737-900 and daily. CVG-LAX 1x per day on 757 and 1x on the typical 737-800. CVG-BOS 2x daily on MD-90 and 2x on CRJ-900. CVG-MCO 2x daily on 737-800. All of these are on larger planes than in 2016 I'm pretty sure.

I'll go ahead and repeat my earlier post, it kind of got lost with all the gate moving discussion. Some really nice increases, all together it is an 11% seat gain YOY.

Upgagues:
- CVG-LAX: 1xB752!!!! + 1xB738 (was 2xB738)
- CVG-SFO: 1xB739 (kept from 2017)
- CVG-LAS: 1xB739 (was 1xB738)
- CVG-SEA: 1xB739 (was 1xB738/9)
- CVG-ATL: 8xB738 (was 6xMD80 + 2xB738)
- CVG-MCO: 2xB738 (was 2xMD80)
- CVG-SLC: 2xB738 (was 1xA320 + 1xB738)
- CVG-DEN: 1xMD90 (was 1x712)
- CVG-DTW: 1xMD90, 5xCR9 (was 1x712 + 5xCR7/9)
- CVG-TPA: 1xMD90 (was B712/MD80)
- CVG-BOS: 2xMD90 + 2xCR9 (was 2x712 + 2xCR9)
- CVG-RSW: 1xB712 (was 1xCR9)
- CVG-RDU 2xCRJ9 (was 2xCRJ)
- CVG-STL 1xCR9 + 1xCRJ (was 1xCR7 + 1xCRJ)
- CVG-BDL: 1xCR9 (was 1xCR7)

Downguages:
- CVG-BNA: 1xCR7 (was 1xCR9)
- CVG-XNA: 1xCRJ (was 1xCR7)
- CVG-ORD 5xCRJ (was 2xCRJ + 2xCR7 + 1xCR9)
 
topguncnod
Posts: 53
Joined: Tue May 30, 2017 1:46 am

Re: The Rest Of Ohio - 2017

Tue Dec 12, 2017 11:20 pm

cvgComair wrote:
topguncnod wrote:
Also looking out in to June 2018- CVG-LAS up gauged to 737-900 and daily. CVG-LAX 1x per day on 757 and 1x on the typical 737-800. CVG-BOS 2x daily on MD-90 and 2x on CRJ-900. CVG-MCO 2x daily on 737-800. All of these are on larger planes than in 2016 I'm pretty sure.

I'll go ahead and repeat my earlier post, it kind of got lost with all the gate moving discussion. Some really nice increases, all together it is an 11% seat gain YOY.

Upgagues:
- CVG-LAX: 1xB752!!!! + 1xB738 (was 2xB738)
- CVG-SFO: 1xB739 (kept from 2017)
- CVG-LAS: 1xB739 (was 1xB738)
- CVG-SEA: 1xB739 (was 1xB738/9)
- CVG-ATL: 8xB738 (was 6xMD80 + 2xB738)
- CVG-MCO: 2xB738 (was 2xMD80)
- CVG-SLC: 2xB738 (was 1xA320 + 1xB738)
- CVG-DEN: 1xMD90 (was 1x712)
- CVG-DTW: 1xMD90, 5xCR9 (was 1x712 + 5xCR7/9)
- CVG-TPA: 1xMD90 (was B712/MD80)
- CVG-BOS: 2xMD90 + 2xCR9 (was 2x712 + 2xCR9)
- CVG-RSW: 1xB712 (was 1xCR9)
- CVG-RDU 2xCRJ9 (was 2xCRJ)
- CVG-STL 1xCR9 + 1xCRJ (was 1xCR7 + 1xCRJ)
- CVG-BDL: 1xCR9 (was 1xCR7)

Downguages:
- CVG-BNA: 1xCR7 (was 1xCR9)
- CVG-XNA: 1xCRJ (was 1xCR7)
- CVG-ORD 5xCRJ (was 2xCRJ + 2xCR7 + 1xCR9)



Thanks for posting! I did miss this!
 
DeltaRules
Posts: 4966
Joined: Sat Sep 01, 2001 11:57 am

Re: The Rest Of Ohio - 2017

Tue Dec 12, 2017 11:36 pm

john7165 wrote:
CMH has hired a new CEO to replace Elaine Roberts. His name is Jerry Nardone and comes to Columbus from an executive position with Detroit Metro airports.

https://www.bizjournals.com/columbus/ne ... -much.html


I'm curious to see what his vision is for the airport.
A310/319/320/321/333, ARJ, BN2, B717/722/73S/733/734/735/73G/738/739/744/757/753/767/763/764/777, CR1/2/7/9, DH6, 328, EM2/ERJ/E70/E75/E90, F28/100, J31, L10/12/15, DC9/D93/D94/D95/M80/M88/M90/D10, SF3, SST
 
cvgComair
Posts: 2040
Joined: Thu Jul 07, 2016 3:48 pm

Re: The Rest Of Ohio - 2017

Tue Dec 12, 2017 11:45 pm

DeltaRules wrote:
john7165 wrote:
CMH has hired a new CEO to replace Elaine Roberts. His name is Jerry Nardone and comes to Columbus from an executive position with Detroit Metro airports.

https://www.bizjournals.com/columbus/ne ... -much.html

I'm curious to see what his vision is for the airport.

That is exciting, the change of CEO's at CVG made a huge difference. It is amazing what fresh leadership can accomplish. Hopefully CMH TATL service is on the horizon.
 
ADrum23
Posts: 1789
Joined: Fri Jul 14, 2017 11:54 pm

Re: The Rest Of Ohio - 2017

Wed Dec 13, 2017 1:36 am

cvgComair wrote:
ADrum23 wrote:
Jshank83 wrote:
There’s only 2 ways WN’s operation at CVG, it’ll either be successful and they’ll run a similar operation to CMH and IND or it’ll be hard for them to find a niche and it’ll be more like CLE or DTW’s service, there’s no buffer or in between here.


As long as DL/F9/G4 keep a decent sized operation there I think it will be more of the latter. I am just not sure how much headway they can make being so late to the game at CVG until someone else shrinks or a lot of time goes by.

WN has a loyal following. Not saying they’ll for sure be successful, but no one airline is dominant anymore at CVG, so they could carve out a nice niche there. At least as large as CLE.

Honestly, at the end of the day, would most flyers prefer G4/F9 over WN?

I think G4/F9 are attracting very different fliers than WN/DL, G4/F9 are courting fliers that previously drove/never flew before, WN/DL are getting business pax/existing fliers. WN is a high service airline with reasonable fares because of competition, much like DL. The real competition is DL vs WN. For people with medallion status/Delta card holders, DL is the obvious choice with their larger network, lounge access in CVG, and free bags. For other fliers, the bag issue is pretty easily solved by using the Delta card (just watch the Delta Check-In area, many fliers use it). I can't say what will happen long term, but my bet is that 5 years from now, G4/F9/DL/WN will all be carrying more passengers than they are now. I think WN CVG ops will look at lot like CLE was a year or two ago, nothing huge, but giving full access to their network. I don't think WN's growth will be inhibited by other airlines, nor will other airlines be inhibited by WN growing. Who knows how long the +15% growth can be sustained, but it looks like 2018 will equal, if not top the growth rate from 2017.


Good points. I believe CVG will grow back into the 10-15 million passenger range within the next decade (all things being equal), but we'll see how much WN ends up adding at CVG. I mean, F9 started out with only CVG-DEN and now they are building a large focus city/mini-hub, so it is possible for WN to add a fair amount. I think the most likely scenario is what you said, not huge but enough to access their full network.

However, one thing I am pretty confident is that future expansion will likely be with other carriers and DL will likely never grow much beyond what we see now, which is too bad. Personally, I would love to see DL grow CVG operations similar to SLC (around 250 flights), but with DET up the road, that's not gonna happen. As somebody who flies out of BNA, it would be nice to have CVG as a major DL connecting hub once again (as opposed to having to connect at the congestion-plagued ATL and DET), but it seems DL is putting all of their eggs into their ATL, DET and MSP hubs.
 
WWads
Posts: 328
Joined: Mon Jul 03, 2017 11:18 pm

Re: The Rest Of Ohio - 2017

Wed Dec 13, 2017 3:23 pm

ADrum23 wrote:
cvgComair wrote:
ADrum23 wrote:

As long as DL/F9/G4 keep a decent sized operation there I think it will be more of the latter. I am just not sure how much headway they can make being so late to the game at CVG until someone else shrinks or a lot of time goes by.

WN has a loyal following. Not saying they’ll for sure be successful, but no one airline is dominant anymore at CVG, so they could carve out a nice niche there. At least as large as CLE.

Honestly, at the end of the day, would most flyers prefer G4/F9 over WN?

I think G4/F9 are attracting very different fliers than WN/DL, G4/F9 are courting fliers that previously drove/never flew before, WN/DL are getting business pax/existing fliers. WN is a high service airline with reasonable fares because of competition, much like DL. The real competition is DL vs WN. For people with medallion status/Delta card holders, DL is the obvious choice with their larger network, lounge access in CVG, and free bags. For other fliers, the bag issue is pretty easily solved by using the Delta card (just watch the Delta Check-In area, many fliers use it). I can't say what will happen long term, but my bet is that 5 years from now, G4/F9/DL/WN will all be carrying more passengers than they are now. I think WN CVG ops will look at lot like CLE was a year or two ago, nothing huge, but giving full access to their network. I don't think WN's growth will be inhibited by other airlines, nor will other airlines be inhibited by WN growing. Who knows how long the +15% growth can be sustained, but it looks like 2018 will equal, if not top the growth rate from 2017.


Good points. I believe CVG will grow back into the 10-15 million passenger range within the next decade (all things being equal), but we'll see how much WN ends up adding at CVG. I mean, F9 started out with only CVG-DEN and now they are building a large focus city/mini-hub, so it is possible for WN to add a fair amount. I think the most likely scenario is what you said, not huge but enough to access their full network.

However, one thing I am pretty confident is that future expansion will likely be with other carriers and DL will likely never grow much beyond what we see now, which is too bad. Personally, I would love to see DL grow CVG operations similar to SLC (around 250 flights), but with DET up the road, that's not gonna happen. As somebody who flies out of BNA, it would be nice to have CVG as a major DL connecting hub once again (as opposed to having to connect at the congestion-plagued ATL and DET), but it seems DL is putting all of their eggs into their ATL, DET and MSP hubs.


All I really want out of DL are LHR, MSY, and RIC nonstops.
 
DeltaRules
Posts: 4966
Joined: Sat Sep 01, 2001 11:57 am

Re: The Rest Of Ohio - 2017

Wed Dec 13, 2017 3:40 pm

ADrum23 wrote:
cvgComair wrote:
ADrum23 wrote:

As long as DL/F9/G4 keep a decent sized operation there I think it will be more of the latter. I am just not sure how much headway they can make being so late to the game at CVG until someone else shrinks or a lot of time goes by.

WN has a loyal following. Not saying they’ll for sure be successful, but no one airline is dominant anymore at CVG, so they could carve out a nice niche there. At least as large as CLE.

Honestly, at the end of the day, would most flyers prefer G4/F9 over WN?

I think G4/F9 are attracting very different fliers than WN/DL, G4/F9 are courting fliers that previously drove/never flew before, WN/DL are getting business pax/existing fliers. WN is a high service airline with reasonable fares because of competition, much like DL. The real competition is DL vs WN. For people with medallion status/Delta card holders, DL is the obvious choice with their larger network, lounge access in CVG, and free bags. For other fliers, the bag issue is pretty easily solved by using the Delta card (just watch the Delta Check-In area, many fliers use it). I can't say what will happen long term, but my bet is that 5 years from now, G4/F9/DL/WN will all be carrying more passengers than they are now. I think WN CVG ops will look at lot like CLE was a year or two ago, nothing huge, but giving full access to their network. I don't think WN's growth will be inhibited by other airlines, nor will other airlines be inhibited by WN growing. Who knows how long the +15% growth can be sustained, but it looks like 2018 will equal, if not top the growth rate from 2017.


Good points. I believe CVG will grow back into the 10-15 million passenger range within the next decade (all things being equal), but we'll see how much WN ends up adding at CVG. I mean, F9 started out with only CVG-DEN and now they are building a large focus city/mini-hub, so it is possible for WN to add a fair amount. I think the most likely scenario is what you said, not huge but enough to access their full network.

However, one thing I am pretty confident is that future expansion will likely be with other carriers and DL will likely never grow much beyond what we see now, which is too bad. Personally, I would love to see DL grow CVG operations similar to SLC (around 250 flights), but with DET up the road, that's not gonna happen. As somebody who flies out of BNA, it would be nice to have CVG as a major DL connecting hub once again (as opposed to having to connect at the congestion-plagued ATL and DET), but it seems DL is putting all of their eggs into their ATL, DET and MSP hubs.


I'd love to have CVG as a connecting option again from CMH, but I figure it's never going to happen.
A310/319/320/321/333, ARJ, BN2, B717/722/73S/733/734/735/73G/738/739/744/757/753/767/763/764/777, CR1/2/7/9, DH6, 328, EM2/ERJ/E70/E75/E90, F28/100, J31, L10/12/15, DC9/D93/D94/D95/M80/M88/M90/D10, SF3, SST
 
ADrum23
Posts: 1789
Joined: Fri Jul 14, 2017 11:54 pm

Re: The Rest Of Ohio - 2017

Wed Dec 13, 2017 11:15 pm

WWads wrote:
ADrum23 wrote:
cvgComair wrote:
I think G4/F9 are attracting very different fliers than WN/DL, G4/F9 are courting fliers that previously drove/never flew before, WN/DL are getting business pax/existing fliers. WN is a high service airline with reasonable fares because of competition, much like DL. The real competition is DL vs WN. For people with medallion status/Delta card holders, DL is the obvious choice with their larger network, lounge access in CVG, and free bags. For other fliers, the bag issue is pretty easily solved by using the Delta card (just watch the Delta Check-In area, many fliers use it). I can't say what will happen long term, but my bet is that 5 years from now, G4/F9/DL/WN will all be carrying more passengers than they are now. I think WN CVG ops will look at lot like CLE was a year or two ago, nothing huge, but giving full access to their network. I don't think WN's growth will be inhibited by other airlines, nor will other airlines be inhibited by WN growing. Who knows how long the +15% growth can be sustained, but it looks like 2018 will equal, if not top the growth rate from 2017.


Good points. I believe CVG will grow back into the 10-15 million passenger range within the next decade (all things being equal), but we'll see how much WN ends up adding at CVG. I mean, F9 started out with only CVG-DEN and now they are building a large focus city/mini-hub, so it is possible for WN to add a fair amount. I think the most likely scenario is what you said, not huge but enough to access their full network.

However, one thing I am pretty confident is that future expansion will likely be with other carriers and DL will likely never grow much beyond what we see now, which is too bad. Personally, I would love to see DL grow CVG operations similar to SLC (around 250 flights), but with DET up the road, that's not gonna happen. As somebody who flies out of BNA, it would be nice to have CVG as a major DL connecting hub once again (as opposed to having to connect at the congestion-plagued ATL and DET), but it seems DL is putting all of their eggs into their ATL, DET and MSP hubs.


All I really want out of DL are LHR, MSY, and RIC nonstops.


I don't think CVG-LHR happens unfortunately, at least not with DL. Is Cincinnati big enough of a market to have two TATL flights without the connections to feed it? Also, with WW coming to town, it would be harder for DL to make the flight profitable.
 
ADrum23
Posts: 1789
Joined: Fri Jul 14, 2017 11:54 pm

Re: The Rest Of Ohio - 2017

Wed Dec 13, 2017 11:16 pm

DeltaRules wrote:
ADrum23 wrote:
cvgComair wrote:
I think G4/F9 are attracting very different fliers than WN/DL, G4/F9 are courting fliers that previously drove/never flew before, WN/DL are getting business pax/existing fliers. WN is a high service airline with reasonable fares because of competition, much like DL. The real competition is DL vs WN. For people with medallion status/Delta card holders, DL is the obvious choice with their larger network, lounge access in CVG, and free bags. For other fliers, the bag issue is pretty easily solved by using the Delta card (just watch the Delta Check-In area, many fliers use it). I can't say what will happen long term, but my bet is that 5 years from now, G4/F9/DL/WN will all be carrying more passengers than they are now. I think WN CVG ops will look at lot like CLE was a year or two ago, nothing huge, but giving full access to their network. I don't think WN's growth will be inhibited by other airlines, nor will other airlines be inhibited by WN growing. Who knows how long the +15% growth can be sustained, but it looks like 2018 will equal, if not top the growth rate from 2017.


Good points. I believe CVG will grow back into the 10-15 million passenger range within the next decade (all things being equal), but we'll see how much WN ends up adding at CVG. I mean, F9 started out with only CVG-DEN and now they are building a large focus city/mini-hub, so it is possible for WN to add a fair amount. I think the most likely scenario is what you said, not huge but enough to access their full network.

However, one thing I am pretty confident is that future expansion will likely be with other carriers and DL will likely never grow much beyond what we see now, which is too bad. Personally, I would love to see DL grow CVG operations similar to SLC (around 250 flights), but with DET up the road, that's not gonna happen. As somebody who flies out of BNA, it would be nice to have CVG as a major DL connecting hub once again (as opposed to having to connect at the congestion-plagued ATL and DET), but it seems DL is putting all of their eggs into their ATL, DET and MSP hubs.


I'd love to have CVG as a connecting option again from CMH, but I figure it's never going to happen.


All thanks to DET. If it weren't for them, the CVG hub would likely be at least the size of SLC. It's too bad, CVG is more centrally located and more convenient than DET.
 
cvgComair
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Re: The Rest Of Ohio - 2017

Thu Dec 14, 2017 1:26 am

OneJet is expanding like crazy it PIT, pretty amazing how many destinations they have been able to setup in a short time. It is eerily reminiscent of Comair beginnings and I think it shows that these small business markets have demand. Unfortunately, Ultimate Air Shuttle seems to be struggling, they got the use of larger planes right, which OneJet is now copying. However, I think OneJet's model of using regular gates and big airports has set it up for success. I think it would be kind of cool if UE started operating flights on behalf of OneJet (like CFM does) for CVG operations, since it seems like they are struggling to expand on their own. I think CVG would need to put money behind this like PIT has done, but I think it could be wildly successful.
 
jplatts
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Re: The Rest Of Ohio - 2017

Thu Dec 14, 2017 1:59 am

DeltaRules wrote:
I'd love to have CVG as a connecting option again from CMH, but I figure it's never going to happen.


I agree that Delta will not serve CVG nonstop from CMH, and most of the destinations that have nonstop service out of CVG are already served nonstop from CMH. There are some destinations that have nonstop service out of CVG but not CMH, including XNA, BDL, MCI, MKE, PVD, SLC, SAN, SFO, and SEA, but you can connect to all of these destinations from CMH through airports other than CVG. In addition, DAL and OAK are not currently served nonstop out of CVG on any airline, but Southwest has nonstop service from CMH to both DAL and OAK.
 
DeltaRules
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Re: The Rest Of Ohio - 2017

Thu Dec 14, 2017 2:34 am

jplatts wrote:
DeltaRules wrote:
I'd love to have CVG as a connecting option again from CMH, but I figure it's never going to happen.


I agree that Delta will not serve CVG nonstop from CMH, and most of the destinations that have nonstop service out of CVG are already served nonstop from CMH. There are some destinations that have nonstop service out of CVG but not CMH, including XNA, BDL, MCI, MKE, PVD, SLC, SAN, SFO, and SEA, but you can connect to all of these destinations from CMH through airports other than CVG. In addition, DAL and OAK are not currently served nonstop out of CVG on any airline, but Southwest has nonstop service from CMH to both DAL and OAK.


Right, which is why I said I didn't figure it would happen. Interesting to note, though, that CVG-CMH had mainline until nearly the end, either a 738 or M88 which RONed at CMH. Only the last year or so did it go all RJ, with the RON becoming a CR7.

CMH has service to MKE on OneJet, which started November 1st. Some of the others you list (BDL, MCI, SEA) seem possible, too, especially with the insurance presences in both Columbus and Hartford and the AS expansion I seem to remember reading about on here (SEA).
A310/319/320/321/333, ARJ, BN2, B717/722/73S/733/734/735/73G/738/739/744/757/753/767/763/764/777, CR1/2/7/9, DH6, 328, EM2/ERJ/E70/E75/E90, F28/100, J31, L10/12/15, DC9/D93/D94/D95/M80/M88/M90/D10, SF3, SST
 
ADrum23
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Re: The Rest Of Ohio - 2017

Thu Dec 14, 2017 3:32 am

DeltaRules wrote:
jplatts wrote:
DeltaRules wrote:
I'd love to have CVG as a connecting option again from CMH, but I figure it's never going to happen.


I agree that Delta will not serve CVG nonstop from CMH, and most of the destinations that have nonstop service out of CVG are already served nonstop from CMH. There are some destinations that have nonstop service out of CVG but not CMH, including XNA, BDL, MCI, MKE, PVD, SLC, SAN, SFO, and SEA, but you can connect to all of these destinations from CMH through airports other than CVG. In addition, DAL and OAK are not currently served nonstop out of CVG on any airline, but Southwest has nonstop service from CMH to both DAL and OAK.


Right, which is why I said I didn't figure it would happen. Interesting to note, though, that CVG-CMH had mainline until nearly the end, either a 738 or M88 which RONed at CMH. Only the last year or so did it go all RJ, with the RON becoming a CR7.

CMH has service to MKE on OneJet, which started November 1st. Some of the others you list (BDL, MCI, SEA) seem possible, too, especially with the insurance presences in both Columbus and Hartford and the AS expansion I seem to remember reading about on here (SEA).


I am surprised no airline goes from CVG to either CMH or CLE. You'd think at least CVG-CLE would be served by someone, even if it's only a small RJ.
 
DeltaRules
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Re: The Rest Of Ohio - 2017

Thu Dec 14, 2017 5:09 pm

I was curious to crunch the numbers on destinations served by each airline (current or announced) at CMH/LCK and, using Wikipedia, got this:
AC- 1 (YYZ)
AA- 10 (DFW, LAX, PHX mainline, PHL hybrid, CLT, ORD, MIA, JFK, LGA, DCA regional)
DL- 12 (ATL, LAX, CUN mainline, DTW, MSP hybrid, BOS, JFK, LGA, RDU regional, RSW, MIA, MCO seasonal)
F9- 6 (DEN, MCO year-round, AUS, LAS, RSW, TPA seasonal)
J1- 1 (MKE)
WN- 19 (ATL, BWI, BOS, MDW, DAL, DEN, FLL, RSW, LAS, BNA, MSY, OAK, MCO, PHX, STL, TPA, DCA year-round, CUN, HOU seasonal)
NK- 7 (FLL, LAS, MCO year-round, RSW, MYR, MSY, TPA seasonal)
UA- 5 (ORD, DEN hybrid, EWR, IAH, IAD regional)
Vacation Express- 2 (CUN, PUJ)
G4- 10 (AUS, FLL, SFB, PGD, PIE year-round, VPS, JAX, MYR, MSY, SAV seasonal)

Kind of runs along the lines of the airlines which carry the most passengers out of the two airports. I wonder if NK will slot in accordingly in terms of market share.
A310/319/320/321/333, ARJ, BN2, B717/722/73S/733/734/735/73G/738/739/744/757/753/767/763/764/777, CR1/2/7/9, DH6, 328, EM2/ERJ/E70/E75/E90, F28/100, J31, L10/12/15, DC9/D93/D94/D95/M80/M88/M90/D10, SF3, SST
 
DeltaRules
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Re: The Rest Of Ohio - 2017

Thu Dec 14, 2017 5:31 pm

Sorry for the double post, but the Dispatch ran an exit interview with CRAA's Elaine Roberts today: http://www.dispatch.com/news/20171214/c ... ear-career

Highlights include another reference to WN's goal to remain the #1 airline at CMH ("Hometown Airline" was one way I read that described) and how the airport and business community are going to have to back TATL.
A310/319/320/321/333, ARJ, BN2, B717/722/73S/733/734/735/73G/738/739/744/757/753/767/763/764/777, CR1/2/7/9, DH6, 328, EM2/ERJ/E70/E75/E90, F28/100, J31, L10/12/15, DC9/D93/D94/D95/M80/M88/M90/D10, SF3, SST
 
john7165
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Re: The Rest Of Ohio - 2017

Thu Dec 14, 2017 8:52 pm

DeltaRules wrote:
Sorry for the double post, but the Dispatch ran an exit interview with CRAA's Elaine Roberts today: http://www.dispatch.com/news/20171214/c ... ear-career

Highlights include another reference to WN's goal to remain the #1 airline at CMH ("Hometown Airline" was one way I read that described) and how the airport and business community are going to have to back TATL.

The way i read her quote about SW was don't look for any new routes anytime soon. SW seems to be waiting on new aircraft to augment their fleet.
 
Briancw
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Re: The Rest Of Ohio - 2017

Thu Dec 14, 2017 9:32 pm

john7165 wrote:
The way i read her quote about SW was don't look for any new routes anytime soon. SW seems to be waiting on new aircraft to augment their fleet.


That, and if we want anything outside of what we currently have (excluding non-vacation destinations), we better pony up some money to guarantee the revenue (TATL, West Coast, etc.), otherwise it won't happen. She also mentions that the State isn't interested/see the need in assisting on this, leaving it to local businesses to step up. Seems like an uphill battle.

Sigh...
 
B4REAL
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Re: The Rest Of Ohio - 2017

Fri Dec 15, 2017 1:29 am

john7165 wrote:
CMH has hired a new CEO to replace Elaine Roberts. His name is Jerry Nardone and comes to Columbus from an executive position with Detroit Metro airports.

https://www.bizjournals.com/columbus/ne ... -much.html


This is actually very significant news. Maybe we will see a flight to Europe, a lounge, etc.
B4REAL, spelled like it sounds & @RickVanover on Twitter
 
B4REAL
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Re: The Rest Of Ohio - 2017

Fri Dec 15, 2017 1:30 am

jplatts wrote:
DeltaRules wrote:
I'd love to have CVG as a connecting option again from CMH, but I figure it's never going to happen.


I agree that Delta will not serve CVG nonstop from CMH, and most of the destinations that have nonstop service out of CVG are already served nonstop from CMH. There are some destinations that have nonstop service out of CVG but not CMH, including XNA, BDL, MCI, MKE, PVD, SLC, SAN, SFO, and SEA, but you can connect to all of these destinations from CMH through airports other than CVG. In addition, DAL and OAK are not currently served nonstop out of CVG on any airline, but Southwest has nonstop service from CMH to both DAL and OAK.


CVG-CMH on DL isn't coming back. I was reminiscing the other day in my archive flight schedule, DL used to run 4 or 5 757's a day on the route!!!!!! CRAZY
B4REAL, spelled like it sounds & @RickVanover on Twitter
 
greenair727
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Re: The Rest Of Ohio - 2017

Fri Dec 15, 2017 2:24 am

"Nardone, 56, was named CEO of the Wayne County Airport Authority in January 2017 after a month in the interim role."

Is it a big jump in pay? Why would anyone want to go from running DTW to running CMH? Certainly a resume killer. DTW is a major airport and certainly a lot more challenging and fun than running CMH. Seems fishy.....
 
DeltaRules
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Re: The Rest Of Ohio - 2017

Fri Dec 15, 2017 2:53 am

greenair727 wrote:
"Nardone, 56, was named CEO of the Wayne County Airport Authority in January 2017 after a month in the interim role."

Is it a big jump in pay? Why would anyone want to go from running DTW to running CMH? Certainly a resume killer. DTW is a major airport and certainly a lot more challenging and fun than running CMH. Seems fishy.....


“Detroit is a tremendous, world-class airport,” Nardone told me. “It’s beautiful. It’s fantastic.”

But he continued: “It’s done,” he said. “It’s built.”


He said he loves development and growth, felt there's not much more of that left to do at DTW, whereas there's lots of opportunity to leave his mark with CMH and LCK. CRAA also thinks he can contribute to gaining new/expanded service.

It's all in the article. If you're 56 years old, spent five years with WCAA in various roles, and have their thanks for leaving your mark, do you really need a resume builder?

edit- The right person can make all the difference. Look at what Christina Cassotis (sp?) has done at PIT. They've backed armored cars up to airline headquarters to launch much of the service they've gained in the last few years (even OneJet was subsidized to the tune of $3M), but they've made it all work.
A310/319/320/321/333, ARJ, BN2, B717/722/73S/733/734/735/73G/738/739/744/757/753/767/763/764/777, CR1/2/7/9, DH6, 328, EM2/ERJ/E70/E75/E90, F28/100, J31, L10/12/15, DC9/D93/D94/D95/M80/M88/M90/D10, SF3, SST
 
greenair727
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Re: The Rest Of Ohio - 2017

Fri Dec 15, 2017 3:12 am

Yeah, I read, "But he continued: “It’s done,” he said. “It’s built.”" in the article. He has to say SOMETHING. Maybe that it is true. But, in aviation, going from Detroit to Columbus, OH for the same title---especially when you've been in your current job less than a year [unless you're a millennial...], certainly raises eyebrows....
 
john7165
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Re: The Rest Of Ohio - 2017

Fri Dec 15, 2017 3:50 am

greenair727 wrote:
Yeah, I read, "But he continued: “It’s done,” he said. “It’s built.”" in the article. He has to say SOMETHING. Maybe that it is true. But, in aviation, going from Detroit to Columbus, OH for the same title---especially when you've been in your current job less than a year [unless you're a millennial...], certainly raises eyebrows....

I went to the Detroit thread on A net and asked two questions. What kind of job did Nardone do while he was CEO and why would someone leave one of the largest airports in the country for a significantly smaller one in CMH? The response I got was fairly simplistic. He left for the $$$ and the challenge of seeing a new terminal being built at CMH. Whether those are the sole reasons, I don't know, but hopefully he'll have an introductory press confernce shortly and can lay out a vision for the airport
 
SkyVoice
Posts: 304
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Re: The Rest Of Ohio - 2017

Fri Dec 15, 2017 5:35 am

cvgComair wrote:
OneJet is expanding like crazy it PIT, pretty amazing how many destinations they have been able to setup in a short time. It is eerily reminiscent of Comair beginnings and I think it shows that these small business markets have demand. Unfortunately, Ultimate Air Shuttle seems to be struggling, they got the use of larger planes right, which OneJet is now copying. However, I think OneJet's model of using regular gates and big airports has set it up for success. I think it would be kind of cool if UE started operating flights on behalf of OneJet (like CFM does) for CVG operations, since it seems like they are struggling to expand on their own. I think CVG would need to put money behind this like PIT has done, but I think it could be wildly successful.


cvgComair, I agree with you & I enjoy reading your posts. You are right about Comair's beginnings, but OneJet's expansion actually reminds me of another small airline that hubbed at CVG back in the mid-1980s. That airline was Enterprise. Their IATA code was BE, and they flew ten-seat Cessna Citation jets. One huge feather in Enterprise's cap was their joint venture with British Airways to deliver connecting passengers to Speedbird's Concorde at JFK! Those flights originated at CVG, flew to Boston, then back to JFK where they were allowed to park right next to the Concorde. Later, another "Concorde Connection" flight was added, this time from Hartford. I applied for work at Enterprise before I went to work for Comair. Unfortunately, Enterprise was just past its prime, and the airline shut down about the same time as when People Express went under. Enterprise's offices were in CVG's old Terminal One, and they used one of the ground-level gates in Terminal One, between where North Central / Northwest and USAir used to park their planes.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enterprise_Airlines
"Your talents may take you where your character can not keep you." - Terry Nelson
 
cvgComair
Posts: 2040
Joined: Thu Jul 07, 2016 3:48 pm

Re: The Rest Of Ohio - 2017

Fri Dec 15, 2017 6:56 pm

SkyVoice wrote:
cvgComair wrote:
OneJet is expanding like crazy it PIT, pretty amazing how many destinations they have been able to setup in a short time. It is eerily reminiscent of Comair beginnings and I think it shows that these small business markets have demand. Unfortunately, Ultimate Air Shuttle seems to be struggling, they got the use of larger planes right, which OneJet is now copying. However, I think OneJet's model of using regular gates and big airports has set it up for success. I think it would be kind of cool if UE started operating flights on behalf of OneJet (like CFM does) for CVG operations, since it seems like they are struggling to expand on their own. I think CVG would need to put money behind this like PIT has done, but I think it could be wildly successful.


cvgComair, I agree with you & I enjoy reading your posts. You are right about Comair's beginnings, but OneJet's expansion actually reminds me of another small airline that hubbed at CVG back in the mid-1980s. That airline was Enterprise. Their IATA code was BE, and they flew ten-seat Cessna Citation jets. One huge feather in Enterprise's cap was their joint venture with British Airways to deliver connecting passengers to Speedbird's Concorde at JFK! Those flights originated at CVG, flew to Boston, then back to JFK where they were allowed to park right next to the Concorde. Later, another "Concorde Connection" flight was added, this time from Hartford. I applied for work at Enterprise before I went to work for Comair. Unfortunately, Enterprise was just past its prime, and the airline shut down about the same time as when People Express went under. Enterprise's offices were in CVG's old Terminal One, and they used one of the ground-level gates in Terminal One, between where North Central / Northwest and USAir used to park their planes.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enterprise_Airlines

Thanks! I agree with you, BE is probably a better comparison at the moment. I will be interested to see where OneJet (and Ultimate Air Shuttle) go in the future. The move to larger aircraft is certainly a nod that there is opportunity outside the 7-10 seater market. It doesn't look like OneJet is going to make a central hub at PIT, but rather many smaller bases. I think there is a lot of opportunity in the midwest for this kind of service. Many of the markets DL has cut from CVG over the past 3-4 years could sustain 2x service on their 7-8 seat aircraft from O&D demand.
 
cvgComair
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Re: The Rest Of Ohio - 2017

Fri Dec 15, 2017 7:12 pm

Interesting update, turns out the 16 shops (1 T3, 4 A, 11 B) are exclusively shops/gift stores. They are working on adding a separate number of restaurants, the number is unclear at the moment. They have already announced 2 food vendors coming A early next year, but this new addition is separate (mostly in Concourse B), so in total there will be well over 20 new restaurants/shops at CVG next year, pretty crazy!
 
ADrum23
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Re: The Rest Of Ohio - 2017

Sat Dec 16, 2017 3:37 am

cvgComair wrote:
Interesting update, turns out the 16 shops (1 T3, 4 A, 11 B) are exclusively shops/gift stores. They are working on adding a separate number of restaurants, the number is unclear at the moment. They have already announced 2 food vendors coming A early next year, but this new addition is separate (mostly in Concourse B), so in total there will be well over 20 new restaurants/shops at CVG next year, pretty crazy!


Is AA going to add an Admirals Club in Concourse B when they move there?

Also, could you see UA coming to B eventually as well so A can be fully dedicated to LCC expansion? Or will AA and DL be at fully capacity in B?
 
cvgComair
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Re: The Rest Of Ohio - 2017

Sat Dec 16, 2017 3:50 am

ADrum23 wrote:
cvgComair wrote:
Interesting update, turns out the 16 shops (1 T3, 4 A, 11 B) are exclusively shops/gift stores. They are working on adding a separate number of restaurants, the number is unclear at the moment. They have already announced 2 food vendors coming A early next year, but this new addition is separate (mostly in Concourse B), so in total there will be well over 20 new restaurants/shops at CVG next year, pretty crazy!


Is AA going to add an Admirals Club in Concourse B when they move there?

Also, could you see UA coming to B eventually as well so A can be fully dedicated to LCC expansion? Or will AA and DL be at fully capacity in B?

I am not sure, they run clubs at some odd airports, but I am not sure the demand would be there quite yet. I certainly would expect a club at IND/CMH before CVG, though I am sure it is not out of the question. It would certainly help them with doubling their pax in a year.

As far as UA moving, I don't know. It depends on how much control DL has relinquished in Concourse B, but I think long term the airport would like to keep Concourse A open for future airlines. The airport is moving towards common use gates in Concourse A, I am unclear exactly how this will be implemented by the airlines/ground crew, but it might alleviate some of the current crowding issues. With WN taking over 4 gates (supposedly) in A and I assume SY will take WN's current A3/5 gates, the concourse is already full again. I am sure they want to keep gates open for AS/VX/B6/NK, so moving UA might help.
 
DeltaRules
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Re: The Rest Of Ohio - 2017

Sat Dec 16, 2017 9:43 pm

It's not coming up on the website but, in the print version of Wednesday's Columbus Dispatch, Joe Nardone was interviewed via telephone. Job #1 is expanded service; he's already met with business leaders who seem to have a wish list to try to figure out how they can make it work, especially to "business destinations" the community wants. He said CMH is never going to be a DTW (which everyone reading this post knows), but growth is possible. In his experience, working with existing airlines is easier than new ones, but the author pointed out F9 and NK (failed to mention J1) have started CMH in the last year and a half.

His DTW-CMH flight to make his job official, in the most ironic way for a new airport CEO possible, was delayed, and he nearly missed the event.
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WWads
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Re: The Rest Of Ohio - 2017

Sun Dec 17, 2017 1:32 am

ADrum23 wrote:
cvgComair wrote:
Interesting update, turns out the 16 shops (1 T3, 4 A, 11 B) are exclusively shops/gift stores. They are working on adding a separate number of restaurants, the number is unclear at the moment. They have already announced 2 food vendors coming A early next year, but this new addition is separate (mostly in Concourse B), so in total there will be well over 20 new restaurants/shops at CVG next year, pretty crazy!


Is AA going to add an Admirals Club in Concourse B when they move there?

Also, could you see UA coming to B eventually as well so A can be fully dedicated to LCC expansion? Or will AA and DL be at fully capacity in B?


Clubs generally need a preexisting FF base, and I don't think there's a ton of AA elites in Cincy. Now of course demand could be stimulated if AA does indeed add a bunch of service.
 
ADrum23
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Re: The Rest Of Ohio - 2017

Sun Dec 17, 2017 3:30 am

WWads wrote:
ADrum23 wrote:
cvgComair wrote:
Interesting update, turns out the 16 shops (1 T3, 4 A, 11 B) are exclusively shops/gift stores. They are working on adding a separate number of restaurants, the number is unclear at the moment. They have already announced 2 food vendors coming A early next year, but this new addition is separate (mostly in Concourse B), so in total there will be well over 20 new restaurants/shops at CVG next year, pretty crazy!


Is AA going to add an Admirals Club in Concourse B when they move there?

Also, could you see UA coming to B eventually as well so A can be fully dedicated to LCC expansion? Or will AA and DL be at fully capacity in B?


Clubs generally need a preexisting FF base, and I don't think there's a ton of AA elites in Cincy. Now of course demand could be stimulated if AA does indeed add a bunch of service.


True, but I have a feeling this AA expansion will likely only be more mainline to its hubs (such as CLT, LAX, MIA, PHL and maybe even ORD) and bigger and more frequent RJ's, so perhaps there won't be an Admirals Club. Plus, Cincinnati will always be a DL city, even though the hub is a fraction of what it once was.
 
cvgComair
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Re: The Rest Of Ohio - 2017

Sun Dec 17, 2017 3:04 pm

Ultimate Air Shuttle is cutting LUK-PDK effective 3/19/2018, loads have been <50% so not a surprise, but unfortunate. It seems like they are unable to make anything new work at this point.
 
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AirportRival
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Re: The Rest Of Ohio - 2017

Sun Dec 17, 2017 3:34 pm

cvgComair wrote:
Ultimate Air Shuttle is cutting LUK-PDK effective 3/19/2018, loads have been <50% so not a surprise, but unfortunate. It seems like they are unable to make anything new work at this point.


That is unfortunate but I'm starting to think that they need to do like OneJet and operate out of the main airports and fly to destinations that Delta pulled out of that can support it like maybe MEM and GRR.
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cvgComair
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Re: The Rest Of Ohio - 2017

Sun Dec 17, 2017 4:06 pm

AirportRival wrote:
cvgComair wrote:
Ultimate Air Shuttle is cutting LUK-PDK effective 3/19/2018, loads have been <50% so not a surprise, but unfortunate. It seems like they are unable to make anything new work at this point.


That is unfortunate but I'm starting to think that they need to do like OneJet and operate out of the main airports and fly to destinations that Delta pulled out of that can support it like maybe MEM and GRR.

That is kind of what I am thinking. They started operations at LUK at a time when average fares at CVG were around $640 a ticket, now they are around $300. UE's tickets are really expensive compared to the competition, paired with their low frequency and use of smaller airports, I don't see what leverage they have over other carriers. I think a) they need to shift ops to CVG, b) they need to follow OneJet and not compete with mainline carriers, CVG already has 25 flights/day to CHI, no need for their 1x/day flight, c) they need to keep 2x/day service whenever possible, DL's past shows that once a route drops to 1x/day, business demand sinks. I think good targets would be RIC/GRR/MSN/MEM, plus something in the ALB/BUF/SYR area. I could also see MKE/BNA being possibilities given the ill-timed and low frequency DL serves them.
 
Shields
Posts: 77
Joined: Thu Jan 22, 2015 10:49 pm

Re: The Rest Of Ohio - 2017

Sun Dec 17, 2017 4:24 pm

cvgComair wrote:
AirportRival wrote:
cvgComair wrote:
Ultimate Air Shuttle is cutting LUK-PDK effective 3/19/2018, loads have been <50% so not a surprise, but unfortunate. It seems like they are unable to make anything new work at this point.


That is unfortunate but I'm starting to think that they need to do like OneJet and operate out of the main airports and fly to destinations that Delta pulled out of that can support it like maybe MEM and GRR.

That is kind of what I am thinking. They started operations at LUK at a time when average fares at CVG were around $640 a ticket, now they are around $300. UE's tickets are really expensive compared to the competition, paired with their low frequency and use of smaller airports, I don't see what leverage they have over other carriers. I think a) they need to shift ops to CVG, b) they need to follow OneJet and not compete with mainline carriers, CVG already has 25 flights/day to CHI, no need for their 1x/day flight, c) they need to keep 2x/day service whenever possible, DL's past shows that once a route drops to 1x/day, business demand sinks. I think good targets would be RIC/GRR/MSN/MEM, plus something in the ALB/BUF/SYR area. I could also see MKE/BNA being possibilities given the ill-timed and low frequency DL serves them.


I'm not sure I agree that the right move is to shift operations to CVG. It seems that one of Ultimate's key virtues-at least for Cincinnati-based passengers--is that it flies from LUK. As compared to CVG, LUK is much closer to Cincinnati's eastern suburbs and no more than a 15 minute drive to downtown Cincinnati. Moreover, there is no TSA at LUK, and the parking (free) is directly in front of the departure terminal. (This is purely anecdotal, but I know of several Ultimate flyers in Anderson/Indian Hill/Hyde Park that can get to the LUK terminal in 10-15 minutes. It would take them 30-45 minutes to reach CVG, in which case they would simply fly on DL.)

If Ultimate were to shift to CVG, the service becomes less attractive: Ultimate passengers have to put up with the same nuisances as DL fliers (e.g., parking further from the terminal, TSA, more lines) but miss out on some of the perks that DL and other legacy carriers provide (e.g., accumulating miles, building status).

As far as growth, one option might be to connect the remaining dots in the network (e.g., BKL-CLT). Moreover, I wonder whether Ultimate could add Saturday service to popular leisure destinations among Cincinnati travelers (e.g., TVC in the summer, CHS or SAV in the spring, APF in the winter). I think that a weekly--or seasonal daily flight--to APF would be successful.
 
cvgComair
Posts: 2040
Joined: Thu Jul 07, 2016 3:48 pm

Re: The Rest Of Ohio - 2017

Sun Dec 17, 2017 4:55 pm

Shields wrote:
I'm not sure I agree that the right move is to shift operations to CVG. It seems that one of Ultimate's key virtues-at least for Cincinnati-based passengers--is that it flies from LUK. As compared to CVG, LUK is much closer to Cincinnati's eastern suburbs and no more than a 15 minute drive to downtown Cincinnati. Moreover, there is no TSA at LUK, and the parking (free) is directly in front of the departure terminal. (This is purely anecdotal, but I know of several Ultimate flyers in Anderson/Indian Hill/Hyde Park that can get to the LUK terminal in 10-15 minutes. It would take them 30-45 minutes to reach CVG, in which case they would simply fly on DL.)

If Ultimate were to shift to CVG, the service becomes less attractive: Ultimate passengers have to put up with the same nuisances as DL fliers (e.g., parking further from the terminal, TSA, more lines) but miss out on some of the perks that DL and other legacy carriers provide (e.g., accumulating miles, building status).

As far as growth, one option might be to connect the remaining dots in the network (e.g., BKL-CLT). Moreover, I wonder whether Ultimate could add Saturday service to popular leisure destinations among Cincinnati travelers (e.g., TVC in the summer, CHS or SAV in the spring, APF in the winter). I think that a weekly--or seasonal daily flight--to APF would be successful.

It certainly depends on the Cincinnati traveler, CVG vs LUK alienate different travelers based on where they are coming from. However, I would point out, the amenities at CVG are the exact same (no TSA, free parking right next to the aircraft, lounge, etc). As far as facilities at LUK go, they are pretty limited by parking, so they are essentially unable to grow their operations. I agree with you that there would be no advantage of MMU/MDW/CLT shifting to CVG, but to be honest, those flights are not doing well as pax are choosing to fly WN/DL/AA at CVG instead. I don't think any of these routes are going to stay for much longer anyways.

LF's for September (not good):
LUK-PDK: 50%
LUK-CLT: 54%
LUK-MMU: 65% (this is after reducing to 1x/day)
LUK-MDW: 68% (this is after reducing to 1x/day, loads have been falling ever since WN came)

As a whole, 2017 traffic is down 6%, compared to the +25-50% growth per year UE has seen since they started operations.

LUK-BKL is really the only good successful route right now, having 75% LF's with 2 flights a day. I am saying they need to switch to routes like this that don't have competition. I think for brand recognition/accessibility, its kind of hard for them when they are not operating out of CVG. This is something that CVG would be wanting to help them with, in comparison, the City of Cincinnati (and the communities surrounding LUK) will do everything it its power to keep UE from expanding. A great example is G4, which tried to launch ops at LUK, but they went for CVG and look what happened. The PIT airport is pumping huge amounts of money for OneJet to grow and there is no reason to think CVG wouldn't do the same for UE.
 
masseybrown
Posts: 5384
Joined: Wed Dec 11, 2002 2:40 pm

Re: The Rest Of Ohio - 2017

Sun Dec 17, 2017 5:34 pm

cvgComair wrote:
LUK-BKL is really the only good successful route right now, having 75% LF's with 2 flights a day.


The initial ridership was said to be Cleveland lawyers heading to the Sixth Circuit Court in Cincinnati, but the route has continued to grow. The traffic is exceeding the O&D of CLE-CVG when that route was operated, so the appeal must be a combination of the monopoly plus the use of close-in airports plus the no-TSA easy transit at the airports. Ultimate had once talked about flying to Chicago Executive Airport, maybe they ought to look at that possibility again.
 
cvgComair
Posts: 2040
Joined: Thu Jul 07, 2016 3:48 pm

Re: The Rest Of Ohio - 2017

Sun Dec 17, 2017 11:28 pm

There was a fire in the tunnel at ATL today, power went out. Looks like there were some diversions to CVG, most notably a 764 from LHR. It looks like ATL is going to be closed for a little while, I imagine all of DL's hubs are going to be a mess tomorrow.
 
ADrum23
Posts: 1789
Joined: Fri Jul 14, 2017 11:54 pm

Re: The Rest Of Ohio - 2017

Mon Dec 18, 2017 2:35 am

cvgComair wrote:
There was a fire in the tunnel at ATL today, power went out. Looks like there were some diversions to CVG, most notably a 764 from LHR. It looks like ATL is going to be closed for a little while, I imagine all of DL's hubs are going to be a mess tomorrow.


If anything, this incident in ATL is a good example of why DL should build up their CVG hub again. Not back to the 600+ flights it had in 2005, but around 275-300 flights (a little bigger than SLC). At 1,000+ flights, ATL is simply too big, they need to cut back there. CVG is a better reliever than DET because it is more centrally located and closer to ATL.

If hypothetically DL decided to do this, would they need to build that Concourse D that was proposed in the 2025 master plan? Or would Concourse B be sufficient for a 275-300 flight operation?

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