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Northwest1988
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If the 757 were still in production...

Fri Jan 06, 2017 11:07 am

Hello all,

Before I start I just want to say this is NOT a restart the 757 line topic that has been beaten to death already. Nor a topic about upgrading the 757. But one question I have not seen raised yet is if the 757 were still being produced, what would we see as far as operators today?

Seeing that so many once 757 operators are now operation A321, if still in production, would we see less A321 and more 757 with the legacy carriers across the world? And what airlines that never operated the 757 would have ordered them by now? Companies like JetBlue, Spirit, and Frontier are becoming very fond of the A321. If still in production, would the size, capacity and range have swayed any of these carriers to purchase the 757?

Thank you all!
 
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Channex757
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Re: If the 757 were still in production...

Fri Jan 06, 2017 11:22 am

No more 757 operators.

Airlines stopped buying it a couple of years before it actually went out of production, and the last example was stored before delivery.

Bottom line is the bottom line, literally. It may look stunning and perform like a Ferrari, but just like a Ferrari it guzzles fuel in the days when the market has moved on to the Tesla which is just as fast but much cheaper to run. Airlines would continue to buy the A320 and 737 family as they cost much less to operate, and those who wanted 757s already had them or could buy ones coming available on the secondhand market.
 
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seahawk
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Re: If the 757 were still in production...

Fri Jan 06, 2017 11:27 am

Kind of a self-refuting question. The 757 production stopped because they fount no buyers for it. If there would have been buyers, the production would not have stopped.
 
TC957
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Re: If the 757 were still in production...

Fri Jan 06, 2017 11:29 am

I would guess most of any new 757 operators today, if it was still being built, would be freighters.
 
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jfklganyc
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Re: If the 757 were still in production...

Fri Jan 06, 2017 11:33 am

JetBlue. They want Europe without a widebody. Sadly 321LR may not cut it

A 757 MAX would have had quite the second life

Boeing has made many blunders over the last 15years... This one was the worst. But this has been discussed many, many times before
 
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intotheair
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Re: If the 757 were still in production...

Fri Jan 06, 2017 11:39 am

TC957 wrote:
I would guess most of any new 757 operators today, if it was still being built, would be freighters.


That was my thought as well. At best, it could have had a future like the 767s being built today — all for freight and military. Just because the 757 has the range and capacity that many passenger airlines could use now doesn't mean it has the performance or technology they need from a new build plane. The 757 is still a plane of the 1980s. I find it hard to imagine any theoretical demand for 757Fs straight from the factory too. So many passenger 757s have been snatched up for freighters in the last few years, and there will be a slew of more frames to pick over once DL and AA start retiring them en masse.
300 319 320 321 332 333 345 346 380 717 733 734 735 73G 738 739 744 752 753 762 763 772 77W 788 789 CR2 CR7 CR9 CRK Q400 E175 DC10 MD82 MD90
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keesje
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Re: If the 757 were still in production...

Fri Jan 06, 2017 11:44 am

Fuel and maintenance cost are be 20-40% higher than A321(NEO's) as confirmed by DL and AA.

A total system upgrade including new engines, would have been different.

However efficient 40-50k engines don't exist complicating things..
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
rg787
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Re: If the 757 were still in production...

Fri Jan 06, 2017 11:45 am

The 757 is a great plane but an old one. For me it has two markets:

Low range, high capacity market: probably not many airlines would have bought it for this use, as it is an old plane and the A321 has been around for quite some time and probably with much better economics on this type of mission.

Long range, thin capacity: this is where the 757 remains somewhat competitive today, and the newest example of it is 10 years old plus already. While it is true that it is a low percentage of the missions the 757 is used for, if in production we could have seen a better market development. My guess is that orders would have somewhat dried in the last five or less years, with the A321 becoming even more competitive in this area.

So, answering your question, I can't name any airline as my theory is that the second market, of long-thin routes, P2P, is not yet well developed. Today we have some TATL routes and some US-South America, but those are not many. I think airlines that are not wide body, hub based, would probably have some 757s to do P2P. For the wide-bodied and hub based, the range is not needed and the A321 is enough.
 
VSMUT
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Re: If the 757 were still in production...

Fri Jan 06, 2017 11:54 am

If Boeing still made the 757...

...then the 747-8 would no longer be Boeings worst selling aircraft.

jfklganyc wrote:
Sadly 321LR may not cut it


Why oh why do you guys keep bringing up this falsehood? The A321LR WILL cut it. It has better range than the 757 does.

jfklganyc wrote:
JetBlue. They want Europe without a widebody.


They do, and they wanted to do it with an aircraft that brought great compatibility with their existing fleet of A32Xs, ergo they would never have ordered the 757.


jfklganyc wrote:
A 757 MAX would have had quite the second life

Boeing has made many blunders over the last 15years... This one was the worst. But this has been discussed many, many times before


If by great you mean next to no orders, then you are right. A 757MAX would have brought nothing to the table that Airbus couldn't have beaten quite comprehensively with the A321LR. The 757 is overweight, overbuilt, overwinged and completely unsuitable for todays competitive market.
 
Newbiepilot
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Re: If the 757 were still in production...

Fri Jan 06, 2017 12:15 pm

Northwest1988 wrote:
Seeing that so many once 757 operators are now operation A321, if still in production, would we see less A321 and more 757 with the legacy carriers across the world? And what airlines that never operated the 757 would have ordered them by now? Companies like JetBlue, Spirit, and Frontier are becoming very fond of the A321. If still in production, would the size, capacity and range have swayed any of these carriers to purchase the 757?

Thank you all!


I think it is worth noting that the 757 has been replaced by both 737s and A320s. The fuel burn differences are somewhere around 20% per seat. Once 737NGs and A320s had 2500-3000mi range, there was little nead for 757-200s on 90% of their routes.

United replaced 80 or so 757s with 737-900ERs
Delta has slowly been phasing out some 757 and replacing with both 737-900ERs and A321s
American has been replacing 757s with A321s
Monarch replaced 757s with A321s
El Al replaced 757s with 737-900ERs
Thomas Cook replaced 757s with A321s
British Airways replaced 757s with A321s

So what this means is that the 757 could not compete with the 737NG and A320 family back in the late 1990s. Once the smaller more effieicnet planes had adequate range, the demand for the 757 disappeared.

Let's face it, the 757 was designed in the late 1970s to replace 727s. 5,000ft runways were still common back then so the airplane has a bigger wing and more powerful engines than more modern planes. That big wing and powerful engines also gave the airplane more range than the majority of airiness needed. Today that big heavy wing, overpowered older technology engines, and complex systems architecture results in it burning more fuel than other planes flying the same routes. The 757 production ended for good reason.
 
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JannEejit
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Re: If the 757 were still in production...

Fri Jan 06, 2017 12:39 pm

Was there ever any evidence of airlines asking for a '757-MAX' back in the late 90's or early 2000's ? And had the line still been open in let's say 2010, would fresh orders have come from existing operators who's fleets were coming up for renewal at that time, but not 5-10 years earlier, British Airways for example ?
 
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seahawk
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Re: If the 757 were still in production...

Fri Jan 06, 2017 12:54 pm

A MAX needs a new engine. A new engine is only built if the market potential of the plane is big enough. When the 757 was old enough for a MAX, there was no such engine and the sales were dropping so much that making a new engine was never considered.
 
airbazar
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Re: If the 757 were still in production...

Fri Jan 06, 2017 1:51 pm

jfklganyc wrote:
JetBlue. They want Europe without a widebody. Sadly 321LR may not cut it

B6 wants Europe but at the right cost. The 757 operating cost is too high for any airline to purchase new frames for TATL service. So B6 would not buy it. The only reason you see 757's on TATL routes today is because they are paid off.
And I hate to disappoint you but the A321ceo is already doing Europe from the US (WOW), the A321NEO will do even more (BOS-Ireland/UK), and the A321LR will expand on that yet again.
 
ILNFlyer
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Re: If the 757 were still in production...

Fri Jan 06, 2017 3:23 pm

Northwest1988 wrote:
Hello all,

Before I start I just want to say this is NOT a restart the 757 line topic that has been beaten to death already. Nor a topic about upgrading the 757. But one question I have not seen raised yet is if the 757 were still being produced, what would we see as far as operators today?

Seeing that so many once 757 operators are now operation A321, if still in production, would we see less A321 and more 757 with the legacy carriers across the world? And what airlines that never operated the 757 would have ordered them by now? Companies like JetBlue, Spirit, and Frontier are becoming very fond of the A321. If still in production, would the size, capacity and range have swayed any of these carriers to purchase the 757?

Thank you all!


Makes me wonder if a NEO option existed at the time it went out of production.
 
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BartSimpson
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Re: If the 757 were still in production...

Fri Jan 06, 2017 3:48 pm

Has anybody the list prices of the 757 and the A321 at the time when the 757 was last offered?

Thanks
Bart
 
skipness1E
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Re: If the 757 were still in production...

Fri Jan 06, 2017 3:51 pm

Oh my God, can someone please make it stop. It's Groundhog Day
 
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Revelation
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Re: If the 757 were still in production...

Fri Jan 06, 2017 3:57 pm

seahawk wrote:
A MAX needs a new engine. A new engine is only built if the market potential of the plane is big enough. When the 757 was old enough for a MAX, there was no such engine and the sales were dropping so much that making a new engine was never considered.


Same issue exists for MOM -- existing GTF/Leap engines just adequate for current 739/A21, T1000/GEnX too big/heavy for MOM.

ILNFlyer wrote:
Makes me wonder if a NEO option existed at the time it went out of production.


Nope.
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Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
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NWAROOSTER
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Re: If the 757 were still in production...

Fri Jan 06, 2017 4:25 pm

BartSimpson wrote:
Has anybody the list prices of the 757 and the A321 at the time when the 757 was last offered?

Thanks
Bart

I do not know what the cost of these aircraft was when the 757 was still being made. However the A321 was a much shorter range aircraft than the 757.. The A321 was well suited for European routes while it still took a 757 to fly transcontinental in North America. That is why The A321 did not sell to operators in the United States. 757 purchase by North American airlines fell while 737 sales increased even though they did not have the range of the 757. Boeing stopped making them and even got some airlines to operate the 737 as that was where the money was for Boeing.
Procrastination Is The Theft Of Time.......
 
ehaase
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Re: If the 757 were still in production...

Fri Jan 06, 2017 4:47 pm

Someone raised the issue on another thread of developing a single aisle aircraft with the capability of the old stretched DC-8. I guess that would be something like a 757-300 with a range of 5000 to 6000 miles. However, I guess the engines aren't available now for such an aircraft, and I don't know if the demand would be high enough to justify the development cost.
 
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sassiciai
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Re: If the 757 were still in production...

Fri Jan 06, 2017 5:01 pm

The 757 is not, repeat not, still in production, that ceased a long time ago

If it were still in production in 2017, a large number of Boeing Board Members would be on their way to prison, and some Boeing tarmac somewhere would be full of unwanted 757s off the continuing production line. Santa Clause would be the new US President!

That some of you admire this plane, even adore it (or even worse), I can understand. Enjoy that, from an historic POV! U-tube is full of 757 videos, so off you go there and enjoy

It's only Day6 of a new year, and we already have another f***ing 757 thread. This incessant regurgitation of the same old stuff has an overall bad effect on the standing of a.net

NO MORE 757 THREADS HERE, PLEASE
 
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richcam427
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Re: If the 757 were still in production...

Fri Jan 06, 2017 5:24 pm

sassiciai wrote:
The 757 is not, repeat not, still in production, that ceased a long time ago

If it were still in production in 2017, a large number of Boeing Board Members would be on their way to prison, and some Boeing tarmac somewhere would be full of unwanted 757s off the continuing production line. Santa Clause would be the new US President!

That some of you admire this plane, even adore it (or even worse), I can understand. Enjoy that, from an historic POV! U-tube is full of 757 videos, so off you go there and enjoy

It's only Day6 of a new year, and we already have another f***ing 757 thread. This incessant regurgitation of the same old stuff has an overall bad effect on the standing of a.net

NO MORE 757 THREADS HERE, PLEASE


Why are you so salty about a a thread on a forum? If you hate the topic so much, don't read it. There's no use in you throwing around expletives like a child that doesn't get his way.
 
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compensateme
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Re: If the 757 were still in production...

Fri Jan 06, 2017 5:41 pm

richcam427 wrote:
Why are you so salty about a a thread on a forum? If you hate the topic so much, don't read it. There's no use in you throwing around expletives like a child that doesn't get his way.


The topic has been beaten to death, but some posters can't let it go.

Here's the problem:
DL has a very large 757 fleet. This is primarily because 1) DL & NW took delivery of a large number of the type in the late '90s/early '00s; 2) DL added a number of pre-owned frames in its quest to add cheap capacity; 3) DL's current desire to operate aircraft ~30 years. Here's another fact: the aircraft NW took delivery of in the early 2000s were actually ordered in the late 1980s -- NW had continually deferred the order before affirming it (packaged as a new order) in 2001. By that point, NW was pursing a future fleet of 320-family, but stood to lose a large amount in deposits should it have cancelled the 757.

Why did I bother to mention this? Because on a.net, the REAL reason DL has such a large number of 757 is because it's a magical, mythical, special, super dooper aircraft that does so many things the 739 & 321 can't -- in fact, had the 757 still been available, DL would've ordered tons of them and never bothered with the 739 and 321! And the same posters repeat this over, and over, and over, and over, and over again to the point that it becomes accepted as fact - because people come here in the first place to get information.
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PC12Fan
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Re: If the 757 were still in production...

Fri Jan 06, 2017 5:47 pm

sassiciai wrote:
- The 757 is not, repeat not, still in production, that ceased a long time ago

- That some of you admire this plane, even adore it (or even worse), I can understand. Enjoy that, from an historic POV! U-tube is full of 757 videos, so off you go there and enjoy

- It's only Day6 of a new year, and we already have another f***ing 757 thread. This incessant regurgitation of the same old stuff has an overall bad effect on the standing of a.net

NO MORE 757 THREADS HERE, PLEASE


- Thank you Captain Obvious.
- Yes we do, and yes I do.
- Umm, this is an aviation enthusiast forum, is it not? If you guys are so sick of these threads, just don't click 'em. Just do what you do and roll your eyes and move to something else like you should do.

Now, to answer the OP in an interested approach - Clearly, Boeing would have introduced an advanced version of the 757 by now if it were still in production. The -200MAX / -300MAX would be a given. However, If Boeing wanted to sell -200F MAX or even -300F MAX they would have had to work on their pricing. IMO, that was just one reason Boeing did a poor job keeping the line going. IIRC, FedEx wanted the 200F in a bad way but dismissed it with the price Boeing wanted for it and wouldn't budge.

I think outside of a replacement for existing 757's, I'm not sure who else besides Jet Blue and charter carriers would have bought it. However, those that could afford to do so would have done so.

JannEejit wrote:
Was there ever any evidence of airlines asking for a '757-MAX' back in the late 90's or early 2000's ? And had the line still been open in let's say 2010, would fresh orders have come from existing operators who's fleets were coming up for renewal at that time, but not 5-10 years earlier, British Airways for example ?


I recall that Boeing did make a push for it, but just like everything else that led to the 757's demise, Boeing's timing on the entire line was what did it in.
Just when I think you've said the stupidest thing ever, you keep talkin'!
 
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Revelation
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Re: If the 757 were still in production...

Fri Jan 06, 2017 5:56 pm

PC12Fan wrote:
IIRC, FedEx wanted the 200F in a bad way but dismissed it with the price Boeing wanted for it and wouldn't budge.

And why do you think they wouldn't budge? To me it seems obvious: Boeing knew they could use the same space and workers the 757 had tied up to make more 737s at higher profit margins, so they weren't willing to sell 757s at low or no profit. It's also not clear FX was willing to buy new 757Fs back then, unless they were as cheap as refurbed used 757s, and Boeing clearly wasn't going to go there.
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dcajet
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Re: If the 757 were still in production...

Fri Jan 06, 2017 5:59 pm

jfklganyc wrote:
JetBlue. They want Europe without a widebody. Sadly 321LR may not cut it

A 757 MAX would have had quite the second life

Boeing has made many blunders over the last 15years... This one was the worst. But this has been discussed many, many times before


Now, how exactly is it a blunder to stop producing a model that had not sold for the longest time? Or continue to produce it for a niche market that would never produce the returns required to keep the production line open in the first place?

The 757 was a wonderfully versatile plane for its time, with technology from that time. The industry has moved on.

Except for the wishful thinking of A.netters, I don't see any airlines shedding tears over the 757.
Keep calm and wash your hands.
 
tjerome
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Re: If the 757 were still in production...

Fri Jan 06, 2017 6:10 pm

Newbiepilot wrote:
Northwest1988 wrote:
...Delta has slowly been phasing out some 757 and replacing with both 737-900ERs and A321s...


Fair point, the 739 and 321 have been 757 replacements.

Keep in mind though, DL has in the past couple of years:
-Made great progress on the cabin refurbishment program. There used to be around 8 or 9 different configurations for a standard 752 with overwing exits plus the ex-TW birds and ex-NW birds with same no overwing exit layout. Currently there are 4: 199 seat (75D/H), 75S (ex-TW birds w/ 16J layflat), 75G (5 ex-Shanghai younger birds, those will get changed to something else this year), and the old 180 seat standard 757 (this configuration will be extinct by the end of the year due to refurbishments and 4 retirements). It sounds like it could be just 2 configurations (if not, then 3) by 2018
-Extended the life of a total of 23 frames, 18 for revenue service (659, 667-676, 678-684) and 5 for the charter program (661-664, 666)
-Pulled a total of 9 frames from the desert, 6 for the charter program (649-652, 654, 655) and (hasn't happened yet) 3 aircraft for revenue service which will get the cabin mod (658, 660, 665)

In all 32 more frames have been added to service when they'd otherwise be sitting at MZJ or the like. With the cabin mods, it shows that DL has invested a lot of money in these planes.

To answer the original question: if the 757 were still in production... I think if the 757 was still in production there would be some airlines buying it. It would probably be better as a 757 MAX with new engines, updated cockpit, and what not. It's not to say that some would still choose 739/321 over a 757MAX, just that things definitely would be different if there was some version of the 757 for sale.
 
777PHX
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Re: If the 757 were still in production...

Fri Jan 06, 2017 6:44 pm

skipness1E wrote:
Oh my God, can someone please make it stop. It's Groundhog Day


Welcome to airliners.net, where you'll see the same dumb topics with the same uneducated prognostications.

Biggest mistake Boeing ever made?

Yeah, ummm......ok. The fact that they didn't have any outstanding orders for the aircraft when they axed it is reason enough to justify killing the program. Not to mention the opportunity cost of an idle production line when the right move was doing what they did - converting the 757 line into a second 737 line, where there is no lack of demand.
 
mjoelnir
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Re: If the 757 were still in production...

Fri Jan 06, 2017 10:47 pm

777PHX wrote:
skipness1E wrote:
Oh my God, can someone please make it stop. It's Groundhog Day


Welcome to airliners.net, where you'll see the same dumb topics with the same uneducated prognostications.

Biggest mistake Boeing ever made?

Yeah, ummm......ok. The fact that they didn't have any outstanding orders for the aircraft when they axed it is reason enough to justify killing the program. Not to mention the opportunity cost of an idle production line when the right move was doing what they did - converting the 757 line into a second 737 line, where there is no lack of demand.


Boeing had outstanding orders. They asked airlines to change them to 737. Icelandair got a fabulous deal on 15 737-800 for the cancelling of the 757-300 order.
 
flyabr
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Re: If the 757 were still in production...

Sat Jan 07, 2017 12:26 am

Per comments made by NW management way back, they wish they'd of ordered more 753s before BA shut the line down. I could have imagined airlines like DL/UA picking up more 753s for hub to hub flying, or for popular routes like MSP/DTW to southwest and west coast of USA, or even to Florida from bigger hubs.
 
UPNYGuy
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Re: If the 757 were still in production...

Sat Jan 07, 2017 5:06 am

sassiciai wrote:
The 757 is not, repeat not, still in production, that ceased a long time ago

If it were still in production in 2017, a large number of Boeing Board Members would be on their way to prison, and some Boeing tarmac somewhere would be full of unwanted 757s off the continuing production line. Santa Clause would be the new US President!

That some of you admire this plane, even adore it (or even worse), I can understand. Enjoy that, from an historic POV! U-tube is full of 757 videos, so off you go there and enjoy

It's only Day6 of a new year, and we already have another f***ing 757 thread. This incessant regurgitation of the same old stuff has an overall bad effect on the standing of a.net

NO MORE 757 THREADS HERE, PLEASE


I totally agree! I swear some people go over to youtube and masturbate to 757 videos! Geez!!! Let it die already!!!
 
Max Q
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Re: If the 757 were still in production...

Sat Jan 07, 2017 5:54 am

If you don't like the subject, don't read it, go back to tweeting about your cat.


If the 757 was in production in a NG form you would see most of the major operators worldwide replace their older versions with
such a capable and efficient aircraft.


Shutting down the production line was Boeing's biggest mistake.
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.


GGg
 
rbavfan
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Re: If the 757 were still in production...

Sat Jan 07, 2017 6:12 am

So where is the thread for rewinging the DC-8-60 series with PW1100G's.
 
RalXWB
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Re: If the 757 were still in production...

Sat Jan 07, 2017 8:58 am

sassiciai wrote:
The 757 is not, repeat not, still in production, that ceased a long time ago

If it were still in production in 2017, a large number of Boeing Board Members would be on their way to prison, and some Boeing tarmac somewhere would be full of unwanted 757s off the continuing production line. Santa Clause would be the new US President!

That some of you admire this plane, even adore it (or even worse), I can understand. Enjoy that, from an historic POV! U-tube is full of 757 videos, so off you go there and enjoy

It's only Day6 of a new year, and we already have another f***ing 757 thread. This incessant regurgitation of the same old stuff has an overall bad effect on the standing of a.net

NO MORE 757 THREADS HERE, PLEASE


You nailed it, thank you! :bigthumbsup:
 
VSMUT
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Re: If the 757 were still in production...

Sat Jan 07, 2017 10:32 am

mjoelnir wrote:
Boeing had outstanding orders. They asked airlines to change them to 737. Icelandair got a fabulous deal on 15 737-800 for the cancelling of the 757-300 order.


15 (or whatever it was) 757-300s wouldn't have kept the line running for 15 years more, and wouldn't have made up for the amount of money Boeing made from building a significantly larger amount of 737s which was only possible by shutting 757 production.

flyabr wrote:
Per comments made by NW management way back, they wish they'd of ordered more 753s before BA shut the line down.


Northwest was in no position to order any aircraft at the time.

Max Q wrote:
If the 757 was in production in a NG form you would see most of the major operators worldwide replace their older versions with
such a capable and efficient aircraft.


No you wouldn't. It would have sold no better than the 767-400. At the very most, just two US majors would have ordered a few each. Efficient it wouldn't have been either, the 737NG and A321 would still be significantly better when it came to efficiency.
 
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seahawk
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Re: If the 757 were still in production...

Sat Jan 07, 2017 10:46 am

Revelation wrote:
seahawk wrote:
A MAX needs a new engine. A new engine is only built if the market potential of the plane is big enough. When the 757 was old enough for a MAX, there was no such engine and the sales were dropping so much that making a new engine was never considered.


Same issue exists for MOM -- existing GTF/Leap engines just adequate for current 739/A21, T1000/GEnX too big/heavy for MOM.



Same problem indeed, but even worse. The GTF/LEAP (at least the GTF) has reserves for a A322/737-1000, so this MoM with its all new engine would face competition from a new derivate of an existing from using an existing (but still new) engine. This derivate will be faster to the market and cheaper.

What people also overlook that one of the big advantages of the 757 today is that the frames are paid off. You can put it on a 6 hour trip, let it stand at the destination for 6 hours, fly it back and let it stand for 6 hours without burning money. If it does not fly, it does cost nothing. A new 757MAX needs to fly as much as possible to bring in the costs of the purchase.
Last edited by seahawk on Sat Jan 07, 2017 10:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
uta999
Posts: 937
Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2010 11:10 am

Re: If the 757 were still in production...

Sat Jan 07, 2017 10:48 am

Well Trump will buy at least two.

They will be called Boeing E757-TFO (Trump Force One)

The FAL will be moved to Mexico, who will pay for it.
Your computer just got better
 
mjoelnir
Posts: 9411
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Re: If the 757 were still in production...

Sat Jan 07, 2017 11:14 am

VSMUT wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
Boeing had outstanding orders. They asked airlines to change them to 737. Icelandair got a fabulous deal on 15 737-800 for the cancelling of the 757-300 order.


15 (or whatever it was) 757-300s wouldn't have kept the line running for 15 years more, and wouldn't have made up for the amount of money Boeing made from building a significantly larger amount of 737s which was only possible by shutting 757 production.


It was not 15 757-300, rather just a few. But the narrative that there were no outstanding orders is simply not true. If Boeing asked FI to cancel, who else was asked to cancel? At that time the 757-300 had a very good CASM compared both to single aisle and smaller narrow bodies.
Compared to the 757, the 767 had a terrible CASM on short to medium range. On longer range it was beaten up by the A330.
Perhaps Boeing should have build a new line for the 737 instead of closing the 757 line. The 767 orders dropped also to a few frames per year at that time. That line was not closed down, and orders, if only few, started coming again.
 
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scbriml
Posts: 19289
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Re: If the 757 were still in production...

Sat Jan 07, 2017 11:22 am

dcajet wrote:
Except for the wishful thinking of A.netters, I don't see any airlines shedding tears over the 757.


Of course they're not, just look how many are now sat in the desert.

Max Q wrote:
If the 757 was in production in a NG form you would see most of the major operators worldwide replace their older versions with
such a capable and efficient aircraft.


Wishful thinking.

Max Q wrote:
Shutting down the production line was Boeing's biggest mistake.


No, it was the correct decision based on what Boeing knew. Has any Boeing exec ever said they thought it was a mistake?
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
Newbiepilot
Posts: 3642
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2016 10:18 pm

Re: If the 757 were still in production...

Sat Jan 07, 2017 12:19 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
777PHX wrote:
skipness1E wrote:
Oh my God, can someone please make it stop. It's Groundhog Day


Welcome to airliners.net, where you'll see the same dumb topics with the same uneducated prognostications.

Biggest mistake Boeing ever made?

Yeah, ummm......ok. The fact that they didn't have any outstanding orders for the aircraft when they axed it is reason enough to justify killing the program. Not to mention the opportunity cost of an idle production line when the right move was doing what they did - converting the 757 line into a second 737 line, where there is no lack of demand.


Boeing had outstanding orders. They asked airlines to change them to 737. Icelandair got a fabulous deal on 15 737-800 for the cancelling of the 757-300 order.


Are you talking about the June 2005 order for 10 737-800s that icelandair placed 18 months after the 757 production line was announced that it would be shutdown (in late 2003)? I don't think that means a whole lot. If icelandair had a couple scheduled deliveries beyond the intended production line shutdown and could not accelerate their deliveries to 2005, I don't see how much significance that has. The 757-300 might have been able to survive a little longer if Boeing pushed sales hard at low margins, but the 737-800 and upcoming 737-900ER are more efficient than 752s and lower cost yo build. I think shutting the 757 production line was the right thing to do.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: If the 757 were still in production...

Sat Jan 07, 2017 12:31 pm

VSMUT wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
Boeing had outstanding orders. They asked airlines to change them to 737. Icelandair got a fabulous deal on 15 737-800 for the cancelling of the 757-300 order.


15 (or whatever it was) 757-300s wouldn't have kept the line running for 15 years more, and wouldn't have made up for the amount of money Boeing made from building a significantly larger amount of 737s which was only possible by shutting 757 production.

flyabr wrote:
Per comments made by NW management way back, they wish they'd of ordered more 753s before BA shut the line down.


Northwest was in no position to order any aircraft at the time.



I have to expect that all major potential buyers were given an opportunity for a last buy. But NW had no money - the 757 shutdown wasn't too long after 9/11, and NW had already collateralized the NRT slots years earlier. Orders from carriers that can't pay are worthless.
 
VSMUT
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Re: If the 757 were still in production...

Sat Jan 07, 2017 12:33 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
It was not 15 757-300, rather just a few. But the narrative that there were no outstanding orders is simply not true. If Boeing asked FI to cancel, who else was asked to cancel?


Maybe one or two other airlines were asked to cancel a handful of frames too. But if Boeing actually had any meaningful backlog, then you can be certain that they would have built and sold them.
BTW, in this context, 15 = nothing.


mjoelnir wrote:
At that time the 757-300 had a very good CASM compared both to single aisle and smaller narrow bodies.


CASM is only relevant if you can fill the aircraft. At the time, the hottest selling aircraft at Boeing and Airbus were the A319 and 737-700. The market didn't want a 250-seater, they wanted a 120- to 150-seater.
Fuel was also cheap at the time, making CASM less relevant.


mjoelnir wrote:
The 767 orders dropped also to a few frames per year at that time. That line was not closed down, and orders, if only few, started coming again.


The 767 was a contender for various major military orders, thats why Boeing could live with producing it at a very low pace. The 757 had no such future in sight.
The 757 was also built at Renton, where the 737 was made. The 767 was built at Everett, where the 737 was not made.
 
Newbiepilot
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Re: If the 757 were still in production...

Sat Jan 07, 2017 12:53 pm

It is worth noting that the 767-300F was also an attractive option. A number of airlines were buying the freight version of 767s. Boeing also had motivation to keep the line open on low margin sales while waiting for the tanker deal. There was no such motivation with the 757.
 
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longhauler
Posts: 6488
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Re: If the 757 were still in production...

Sat Jan 07, 2017 1:40 pm

rbavfan wrote:
So where is the thread for rewinging the DC-8-60 series with PW1100G's.

Exactly.

In fact some say the DC-8 line was shut down prematurely, as McDD was overwhelmed with DC-10 and DC-9 production and delivery.

Go even further back, "If the 707 were still in production..." Another fine aircraft. It also could fly non-stop trans-con with no issues. Also a handsome aircraft. Also gave you a kick in the pants on a full thrust take-off ... and also equally as outdated and archaic.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
Newbiepilot
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Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2016 10:18 pm

Re: If the 757 were still in production...

Sat Jan 07, 2017 1:52 pm

longhauler wrote:
rbavfan wrote:
So where is the thread for rewinging the DC-8-60 series with PW1100G's.

Exactly.

In fact some say the DC-8 line was shut down prematurely, as McDD was overwhelmed with DC-10 and DC-9 production and delivery.

Go even further back, "If the 707 were still in production..." Another fine aircraft. It also could fly non-stop trans-con with no issues. Also a handsome aircraft. Also gave you a kick in the pants on a full thrust take-off ... and also equally as outdated and archaic.


Funny irony there. The 707 in its military form remained in production until 1994. That plane remained in production way longer than anyone would have thought.
 
mjoelnir
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Re: If the 757 were still in production...

Sat Jan 07, 2017 2:07 pm

VSMUT wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
It was not 15 757-300, rather just a few. But the narrative that there were no outstanding orders is simply not true. If Boeing asked FI to cancel, who else was asked to cancel?


Maybe one or two other airlines were asked to cancel a handful of frames too. But if Boeing actually had any meaningful backlog, then you can be certain that they would have built and sold them.
BTW, in this context, 15 = nothing.

As there was not a big difference in the order situation between the 757 and 767 when the 757 line was closed down, that argument does not stand up with one line closed and the other kept going. Both lines never produced numbers comparable to smaller single aisle or wide body lines today. One should also not forget that even the 737 line at one time was in danger to be cut. I rather think that after 9/11 the outlook was so black, that decisions were not completely rational.
VSMUT wrote:
CASM is only relevant if you can fill the aircraft. At the time, the hottest selling aircraft at Boeing and Airbus were the A319 and 737-700. The market didn't want a 250-seater, they wanted a 120- to 150-seater.
Fuel was also cheap at the time, making CASM less relevant.


The A319 and 737-700 were never the hottest selling aircraft, neither outsold their bigger sisters the A320 and 737-800. And CASM has been the main argument for not buying 757 here on A.net.

VSMUT wrote:
The 767 was a contender for various major military orders, thats why Boeing could live with producing it at a very low pace.


That is the only sensible argument in your post.
 
LightningZ71
Posts: 566
Joined: Sat Aug 27, 2016 10:59 pm

Re: If the 757 were still in production...

Sat Jan 07, 2017 2:30 pm

I'm still waiting for a "they should have actually done the 727-300 and updated the plane" thread. ;) Who knows, with a trio of later, more efficient engines, the seating capacity of the 757-200, and only two crew members in an updated cockpit, it would still be in production!

Sorry, I just can't. I'm laughing too hard to keep going...
 
VSMUT
Posts: 4685
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2016 11:40 am

Re: If the 757 were still in production...

Sat Jan 07, 2017 2:42 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
As there was not a big difference in the order situation between the 757 and 767 when the 757 line was closed down, that argument does not stand up with one line closed and the other kept going. Both lines never produced numbers comparable to smaller single aisle or wide body lines today.


1. The 767 actually had orders, and was still receiving them. The 767 received 46 orders between 2002 and 2005. The 757 received just 7 in 2003, and not a single one in 2002, 2004 and 2005.
In 2002 the 757s backlog was at just 28 aircraft and Boeing anticipated no orders incoming. The 767 was at 39, and anticipated 35 additional orders for 2003.

2. The 767 did not occupy land that could be used for 737 production.

3. The 767 had a major USAF order for AWACS planes, JSTARS and tankers upcoming.

mjoelnir wrote:
One should also not forget that even the 737 line at one time was in danger to be cut.


Yes, 30+ years prior to the termination of the 757. And unlike the 757, it actually received enough orders to keep going.

mjoelnir wrote:
I rather think that after 9/11 the outlook was so black, that decisions were not completely rational.


The 757 was dead even before 9/11. It hadn't received any significant orders for several years prior to 9/11.


mjoelnir wrote:
The A319 and 737-700 were never the hottest selling aircraft, neither outsold their bigger sisters the A320 and 737-800. And CASM has been the main argument for not buying 757 here on A.net.


737-700 deliveries exceeded -800 deliveries in 1997, 1998, 2003 and 2004.
A319 deliveries exceeded A320 deliveries in 2005.

The market was clearly skewed towards smaller planes, rather than the 200+ seaters of today.

And CASM was just the argument you used in favour of the 757 in your previous post.

mjoelnir wrote:
That is the only sensible argument in your post.


So now you are personal in your arguments? How original. Does that mean you ran out of sensible arguments?
 
DFW789ER
Posts: 399
Joined: Mon Oct 10, 2016 11:20 pm

Re: If the 757 were still in production...

Sat Jan 07, 2017 4:29 pm

If the 757 were still iin production, we would not continue to debate on a.net why the 757 is not in production. Let's bury this dead horse.
 
mjoelnir
Posts: 9411
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:06 pm

Re: If the 757 were still in production...

Sat Jan 07, 2017 5:20 pm

VSMUT wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
As there was not a big difference in the order situation between the 757 and 767 when the 757 line was closed down, that argument does not stand up with one line closed and the other kept going. Both lines never produced numbers comparable to smaller single aisle or wide body lines today.


1. The 767 actually had orders, and was still receiving them. The 767 received 46 orders between 2002 and 2005. The 757 received just 7 in 2003, and not a single one in 2002, 2004 and 2005.
In 2002 the 757s backlog was at just 28 aircraft and Boeing anticipated no orders incoming. The 767 was at 39, and anticipated 35 additional orders for 2003.



That is actually were the point lies. The orders for the 757 that were cancelled are not presented in the numbers for 757 orders available today. Cancelled orders are removed from the database.
 
PC12Fan
Posts: 2135
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2007 11:50 pm

Re: If the 757 were still in production...

Sat Jan 07, 2017 6:13 pm

OMG I can't believe the tunnel vision of virtually every post here. The OP even stated what IF it WAS still in production.

Not why did they shut it down.
Not should they bring it back on line.
Not the reasoning for Boeing killing the line.
Heck, he didn't even proclaim that it was a mistake to shut it down.

Grant it, it's easy for the debate to get off track. I acknowledge that I made a brief reference to the past on how Boeing contributed to the end of the 757, but good gawd, let's answer the original question without so much tripe.

Although I am now severely tempted to make a post asking when NWA will retire the DC-9.
Just when I think you've said the stupidest thing ever, you keep talkin'!

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