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c933103
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Passengers in cargo class?

Mon Jan 09, 2017 12:23 am

I have just come across some jokes about fitting passengers densely into cargo hold of a plane or within cargo plane with extreme dense setting. In real life there're quite a few safety regulations that prevented airlines from doing so, but if troop transporting aircraft work, why can't airlines and regulators let customers choose to accept the risk of unable to escape the plane in 90 seconds [or can those military transport aircraft actually allow all the troops sitting in it escape in 90s?], without windows or internal decoration, and such for a cheaper fare?
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IPFreely
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Re: Passengers in cargo class?

Mon Jan 09, 2017 12:41 am

Every few weeks we read about a ramp employee who climbs into a cargo hold to sleep, drink, or shoot up drugs, and wakes up in another city. While they all seem to survive, offering a cargo class for passengers would never get past the PC safety police.
 
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TWA772LR
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Re: Passengers in cargo class?

Mon Jan 09, 2017 12:46 am

Military aircraft are exempt from the rules that commercial aircraft fall under.

And imagine a commercial windows with no windows, overhead bins, etc... No person would pay to fly on that unless it's a South Vietnam type mass evacuation. Plus, if you take a straight C17 or IL76, there would be no place to put checked luggage.

There's a better chance for Boeing and Airbus to redesign the holds of existing aircraft to seat passengers and even that is a stretch unless airlines are willing to foot the bill. I'M 6'2" and have been in the hold of a 77W and I couldn't stand up straight, meaning they'd have to lower the floor of the cargo hold for people to stand up comfortably, as well as install windows and exits similar to the lounges on the older L1011s that PSA had.
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anrec80
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Re: Passengers in cargo class?

Mon Jan 09, 2017 1:23 am

77W 3-4-3 or 787 3-3-3 - isn't that cargo class already? Or we need to wait for 3-5-3 77X?
 
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KruegerFlaps
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Re: Passengers in cargo class?

Mon Jan 09, 2017 2:38 am

c933103 wrote:
fitting passengers densely into cargo hold of a plane or within cargo plane


That near enough used to be SOP for Qantas when they flew DC3s into Papua New Guinea in the 1950s. The aircraft were ex-wartime and had what were affectionately known as "hard-arse" seats along the side of the fuselage with cargo packed in between. Passengers who wanted to go to the WC would have to step over sacks of potatoes or a trussed piglet to get there.

But those old birds, are thankfully long gone.
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TWA772LR
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Re: Passengers in cargo class?

Mon Jan 09, 2017 2:47 am

Now that I think about it, not seriously of course, airlines could offer a kind of First class Super Suite where pax are screened at security, then go to an area where they have their own LD3 size and shape container loaded with all the amenities they could ever want, and then be loaded by a K-loader from the ramp! :silly:
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leleko747
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Re: Passengers in cargo class?

Mon Jan 09, 2017 3:31 am

TWA772LR wrote:
Plus, if you take a straight C17 or IL76, there would be no place to put checked luggage.


Your words made me recall the Charkhi Dadri collision in 1996, involving an IL-76 and a Saudia Jumbo.
The IL-76, operated by Kazakhstan Airlines, had 27 passengers on board. This made me think: how was this IL-76 fitted to passenger service?
No windows, no overhead bins... I wonder how this experience was.

I also believe Air Koryo have passenger flights with IL-76 in North Korea.
I wonder when people will understand:
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robsaw
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Re: Passengers in cargo class?

Mon Jan 09, 2017 3:41 am

c933103 wrote:
I have just come across some jokes about fitting passengers densely into cargo hold of a plane or within cargo plane with extreme dense setting. In real life there're quite a few safety regulations that prevented airlines from doing so, but if troop transporting aircraft work, why can't airlines and regulators let customers choose to accept the risk of unable to escape the plane in 90 seconds [or can those military transport aircraft actually allow all the troops sitting in it escape in 90s?], without windows or internal decoration, and such for a cheaper fare?


Because if airlines were allowed to offer such a "cargo" class that would soon be the new standard economy class in the race-to-the-bottom. I do believe we need regulation on minimum standards to protect passengers from greed (greed that goes both ways - consumerism and corporatism).
 
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Re: Passengers in cargo class?

Mon Jan 09, 2017 4:07 am

TWA772LR wrote:
No person would pay to fly on that unless it's a South Vietnam type mass evacuation.


Never say never. Offer $10 flights to Las Vegas or such leisure destinations and you will have enough of the Spirit and Allegiant flying cheapo tourists willing to pack inside a windowless cargo hold for a 2 hour flight. In fact, airlines can make a killing by selling alcohol upfront too- a couple of drinks and you don't give a damn where the windows are!
 
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Re: Passengers in cargo class?

Mon Jan 09, 2017 4:11 am

TWA772LR wrote:
Now that I think about it, not seriously of course, airlines could offer a kind of First class Super Suite where pax are screened at security, then go to an area where they have their own LD3 size and shape container loaded with all the amenities they could ever want, and then be loaded by a K-loader from the ramp! :silly:


Take that Etihad! Your Residence holds no candle against The Palace, complete with a king sized bed, couches, huge LED TVs, and you don't even have to come in close contact of the measly peasants boarding via jetbridge!
 
zkncj
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Re: Passengers in cargo class?

Mon Jan 09, 2017 4:14 am

c933103 wrote:
I have just come across some jokes about fitting passengers densely into cargo hold of a plane or within cargo plane with extreme dense setting. In real life there're quite a few safety regulations that prevented airlines from doing so, but if troop transporting aircraft work, why can't airlines and regulators let customers choose to accept the risk of unable to escape the plane in 90 seconds [or can those military transport aircraft actually allow all the troops sitting in it escape in 90s?], without windows or internal decoration, and such for a cheaper fare?


It has been down in the past, on Welington to Chatham Island on the Bristol Freighter by Safe Air.

Check out: http://3rdlevelnz.blogspot.co.nz/2014/0 ... thams.html

Image
 
thomasphoto60
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Re: Passengers in cargo class?

Mon Jan 09, 2017 5:19 am

Memory serves, UPS ran pax charters in the late 90s by reconverting several 727-100 QC into pax aircraft. The experiment was a flop and folded around 2000.
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CrimsonNL
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Re: Passengers in cargo class?

Mon Jan 09, 2017 6:44 am

There was a trip report on this website a few years ago about (I think) an AN-24 from Bishkek to Osh, where there were people sitting in the cargo hold!

Lots of Soviet era freighters have jumpseats fitted alongside the cabin walls, or have provisions for (troop)seats to be installed quickly.

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DexSwart
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Re: Passengers in cargo class?

Mon Jan 09, 2017 6:53 am

With the way that most of this site melts down about 10 abreast in a 777? I think a.net's servers would crash with the number of replies!

zkncj wrote:

It has been down in the past, on Welington to Chatham Island on the Bristol Freighter by Safe Air.

Check out: http://3rdlevelnz.blogspot.co.nz/2014/0 ... thams.html

Image



This does beg the question, if they did something similar to the above, how would this hold up in the event of a crash?
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zkncj
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Re: Passengers in cargo class?

Mon Jan 09, 2017 6:58 am

DexSwart wrote:
With the way that most of this site melts down about 10 abreast in a 777? I think a.net's servers would crash with the number of replies!

zkncj wrote:

It has been down in the past, on Welington to Chatham Island on the Bristol Freighter by Safe Air.

Check out: http://3rdlevelnz.blogspot.co.nz/2014/0 ... thams.html

Image



This does beg the question, if they did something similar to the above, how would this hold up in the event of a crash?


Probably not this was back in the 60s, I don't think any part of an Bristol Freighter would have any strength in a crash.

As it was Chatham Islands, the standard seems to be allowed to be lower than the reset of the country. Current you have to fly on an Convar CV-580 (Combi) to get there.
 
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Re: Passengers in cargo class?

Mon Jan 09, 2017 8:57 am

Don't give Ryanair any ideas
 
cloudboy
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Re: Passengers in cargo class?

Mon Jan 09, 2017 2:48 pm

Are military flights really that much more dense? From what few stories I have heard, the seating area per passenger is actually better - either they use wider seats on pallets, or they may be lining the wall but you have amazing legroom. The difference being the aircraft themselves are much larger.
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tjwgrr
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Re: Passengers in cargo class?

Mon Jan 09, 2017 3:11 pm

cloudboy wrote:
Are military flights really that much more dense? From what few stories I have heard, the seating area per passenger is actually better - either they use wider seats on pallets, or they may be lining the wall but you have amazing legroom. The difference being the aircraft themselves are much larger.


C17. Looks really comfy...... NOT:

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nikeherc
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Re: Passengers in cargo class?

Mon Jan 09, 2017 3:13 pm

I once flew from Osan, Korea to Okinawa with a stop at Cheju Island on a C-141. I was leader of a team modifying Nike Hercules missile sites and we had a lot of tools and materials we had to carry with us. Our luggage was on a pallet in the main cargo floor and we were on "ass racks" that folded down from the side of the aircraft. There was also a J-79 engine on board. It took up most of the cargo area.

I am grateful for the experience, but wouldn't want to do it again. During the preflight briefing, the loadmaster advised us as follows: "In the event of an emergency, the aircraft commander will be the last to leave the aircraft. If you see Major Jones pass you on the way out, congratulations. You are now the aircraft commander."
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CARST
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Re: Passengers in cargo class?

Mon Jan 09, 2017 3:16 pm

zkncj wrote:
As it was Chatham Islands, the standard seems to be allowed to be lower than the reset of the country. Current you have to fly on an Convar CV-580 (Combi) to get there.



Not only the Convair CV-580, AirChathams also is using the DC-3 from WW2 times. And I am booked on both aircraft in February! YEAH!
 
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Classa64
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Re: Passengers in cargo class?

Mon Jan 09, 2017 3:41 pm

nikeherc wrote:
I once flew from Osan, Korea to Okinawa with a stop at Cheju Island on a C-141. I was leader of a team modifying Nike Hercules missile sites and we had a lot of tools and materials we had to carry with us. Our luggage was on a pallet in the main cargo floor and we were on "ass racks" that folded down from the side of the aircraft. There was also a J-79 engine on board. It took up most of the cargo area.

I am grateful for the experience, but wouldn't want to do it again. During the preflight briefing, the loadmaster advised us as follows: "In the event of an emergency, the aircraft commander will be the last to leave the aircraft. If you see Major Jones pass you on the way out, congratulations. You are now the aircraft commander."


..THIS!

"In the event of an emergency, the aircraft commander will be the last to leave the aircraft. If you see Major Jones pass you on the way out, congratulations. You are now the aircraft commander

Thanks, you just made my Monday :))
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RetiredWeasel
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Re: Passengers in cargo class?

Mon Jan 09, 2017 5:57 pm

USAF C-5 upper deck...approximately 70 coach style seats facing backward. More comfy than sitting downstairs on a sidewall web seat!
Image
 
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Aesma
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Re: Passengers in cargo class?

Mon Jan 09, 2017 6:19 pm

At least in the US allowing passengers to "take the risk" wouldn't prevent them or their families to sue the airline for millions in case something happens.
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tb727
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Re: Passengers in cargo class?

Mon Jan 09, 2017 6:29 pm

RetiredWeasel wrote:
USAF C-5 upper deck...approximately 70 coach style seats facing backward. More comfy than sitting downstairs on a sidewall web seat!
Image


When I flew out of Dover we would sometimes use the "terminal" which I thought was strange until I got there and saw the screens for the flights that all the old retirees were riding along to on C-5's!
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Re: Passengers in cargo class?

Mon Jan 09, 2017 6:52 pm

leleko747 wrote:
TWA772LR wrote:
Plus, if you take a straight C17 or IL76, there would be no place to put checked luggage.

This made me think: how was this IL-76 fitted to passenger service?
No windows, no overhead bins... I wonder how this experience was.


Amazing experience, commfortable, well no... The Il-76 has foldable seats along the sides so it can take a lot of pax, and a 22 foot shipping container at the same time. I sat right by a window under the wing, and when we landed and the engines reversed I got a punch in the back :D
Have also flown on C130, An-24 and 26 and no, those are not that comfortable either!
Il-76 has been operated with airline seats on pallets, I would guess that's a whole lot better!
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JohnKrist
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Re: Passengers in cargo class?

Mon Jan 09, 2017 6:58 pm

This 737 actually take passengers in the cargo hold, or cargo in the passenger cabin, depends on if the seats are going in or out :boxedin:
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PatrickZ80
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Re: Passengers in cargo class?

Mon Jan 09, 2017 7:50 pm

TWA772LR wrote:
Military aircraft are exempt from the rules that commercial aircraft fall under.


That's because military personell flying on these planes is supposed to be trained how to act in case of something happening. It's not just anybody flying on those planes, it's soldiers. Boarding and deboarding goes very fast and very organised if they have to, way faster than possible with civilians.

Still even with military aircraft carrying passengers it sometimes still goes wrong. I remember the Hercules disaster at Eindhoven in 1996, four crew members and 37 members of the Dutch military music corps died in the crash. That military music corps was on board as passengers, eventhough they were military.
 
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litz
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Re: Passengers in cargo class?

Mon Jan 09, 2017 8:19 pm

TWA772LR wrote:
There's a better chance for Boeing and Airbus to redesign the holds of existing aircraft to seat passengers and even that is a stretch unless airlines are willing to foot the bill.


Err ... Airbus has already effectively done that ... it's called the A-380.

(and increasingly airlines are becoming less willing to foot that bill)

Obviously in this case, the choice was made to add a 2nd deck, rather than retrofit a cargo hold.

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