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ACATROYAL
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Air Canada's A330-300 Replacement

Mon Jan 09, 2017 11:47 am

Question regarding Air Canada's A330-300. Since AC is switching to an all Boeing fleet I'm curious as to how long they plan on keeping the A333 around? According to news reports they plan on re-configuring the seat count from 265 to 292 which indicates its going to hang around for a while and once they replace all the 320 class planes with the 737 Max's the A333 will be the only Airbus product left in their fleet.

Does anyone how long the A333 will stay in their fleet?
Last edited by KarelXWB on Mon Jan 09, 2017 4:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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ikolkyo
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Re: AIR CANADA'S A330-300 REPLACEMENT

Mon Jan 09, 2017 11:52 am

Wasn't there a thread on this within the last week?
 
VSMUT
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Re: AIR CANADA'S A330-300 REPLACEMENT

Mon Jan 09, 2017 12:21 pm

ACATROYAL wrote:
Since AC is switching to an all Boeing fleet...
...and once they replace all the 320 class planes with the 737 Max's...


I am not very well into Air Canada, but haven't there been some threads in which it was mentioned that they were going to keep at least some of the A32Xs after the introduction of the 737MAX? They also just received a bunch of new A321s.
 
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longhauler
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Re: AIR CANADA'S A330-300 REPLACEMENT

Mon Jan 09, 2017 2:39 pm

In my opinion, Air Canada is hedging their bets with keeping available fins around. In the last 10 years, they have been caught short a couple times without enough wide body aircraft.

The long term plan is to fly only two wide body types, the 777 and the 787. The A330 and the 767 are being kept ... just in case that shortfall happens again. Presently, the 767 is based only in YYZ and the A330 in YUL. This is set up so the fleet can be reduced quickly and cheaply should a downturn arise. The latest cabin "refresh" of the A330 was pretty low investment and did not involve the new IFE system being installed in the 777, 787, 737 and CSeries.

Same thing with the A320s vice the 737. It will be a slow transfer of from one to the other, with a lot of overlap.

With the introduction of a new type into the fleet, AC is usually pretty cautious ... not burning bridges behind them until they are sure they are no longer needed.
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SpaceshipDC10
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Re: AIR CANADA'S A330-300 REPLACEMENT

Mon Jan 09, 2017 4:33 pm

ikolkyo wrote:
Wasn't there a thread on this within the last week?


Not sure about it, here's another one from a year ago: viewtopic.php?t=601383
 
1900Driver
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Re: AIR CANADA'S A330-300 REPLACEMENT

Mon Jan 09, 2017 4:44 pm

Their 333s are still great airplanes despite their age. Perfect for YUL ops with it's closer proximity to Europe. The reconfigure to 292 is perfectly suited for the high volume/lower yield to French speaking markets (with the exception of GVA). Can definitely see them at mainline for the next 5-7 years.
 
Whiteguy
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Re: AIR CANADA'S A330-300 REPLACEMENT

Mon Jan 09, 2017 4:52 pm

VSMUT wrote:
ACATROYAL wrote:
Since AC is switching to an all Boeing fleet...
...and once they replace all the 320 class planes with the 737 Max's...


I am not very well into Air Canada, but haven't there been some threads in which it was mentioned that they were going to keep at least some of the A32Xs after the introduction of the 737MAX? They also just received a bunch of new A321s.


The 321s added to the AC fleet were not new, they (along with a few A320s) were added to fill the gap between the MAXs arriving and 20 E190s retiring....
 
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keesje
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Re: AIR CANADA'S A330-300 REPLACEMENT

Mon Jan 09, 2017 5:06 pm

Whiteguy wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
ACATROYAL wrote:
Since AC is switching to an all Boeing fleet...
...and once they replace all the 320 class planes with the 737 Max's...


I am not very well into Air Canada, but haven't there been some threads in which it was mentioned that they were going to keep at least some of the A32Xs after the introduction of the 737MAX? They also just received a bunch of new A321s.


The 321s added to the AC fleet were not new, they (along with a few A320s) were added to fill the gap between the MAXs arriving and 20 E190s retiring....


Air Canada (Rouge) has been boosting its A321 fleet, but low profile. Used, Leased and for AC Rouge. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fBh_Eozqpdc They probably will replace them with the 737-9'MAXs on order. Or not.
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yyz717
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Re: Air Canada's A330-300 Replacement

Mon Jan 09, 2017 5:46 pm

AC mainline added 5 used 321s in 2015/2016, while Rouge added 5 new-build 321s in 2015/2016. Total AC 321 fleet is now 20 (15 mainline, 5 Rouge).
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Whiteguy
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Re: AIR CANADA'S A330-300 REPLACEMENT

Mon Jan 09, 2017 7:23 pm

keesje wrote:
Whiteguy wrote:
VSMUT wrote:

I am not very well into Air Canada, but haven't there been some threads in which it was mentioned that they were going to keep at least some of the A32Xs after the introduction of the 737MAX? They also just received a bunch of new A321s.


The 321s added to the AC fleet were not new, they (along with a few A320s) were added to fill the gap between the MAXs arriving and 20 E190s retiring....


Air Canada (Rouge) has been boosting its A321 fleet, but low profile. Used, Leased and for AC Rouge. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fBh_Eozqpdc They probably will replace them with the 737-9'MAXs on order. Or not.


The Rouge 321s are all new built aircraft. It's anyone's guess as to when and what they'd be replaced with....right now the MAXs are all planned for mainline. The contract requirements for Rouge restrict the aircraft they can operate for now......once mainline operates a combine fleet of 62 B777/787 then Rouge can operate a new type of narrow body or widebody....
 
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767333ER
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Re: AIR CANADA'S A330-300 REPLACEMENT

Mon Jan 09, 2017 10:46 pm

keesje wrote:
Whiteguy wrote:
VSMUT wrote:

I am not very well into Air Canada, but haven't there been some threads in which it was mentioned that they were going to keep at least some of the A32Xs after the introduction of the 737MAX? They also just received a bunch of new A321s.


The 321s added to the AC fleet were not new, they (along with a few A320s) were added to fill the gap between the MAXs arriving and 20 E190s retiring....


Air Canada (Rouge) has been boosting its A321 fleet, but low profile. Used, Leased and for AC Rouge. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fBh_Eozqpdc They probably will replace them with the 737-9'MAXs on order. Or not.

So they have 54 A320s and A321s eventually being replaced by 61 of some combination of 737-8 and 737-9. Not that much increase in capacity there. Then they have the total of 45 E90s and 18 A319s being replaced by 45 CS300 and I haven't done the math, but there doesn't seem to be much increase there. I don't see how any of the 737s could go to rouge unless they increase their order with options or whatever. I would like to see them eventually put A321neos in the rouge fleet to replace the A319s but what they'll really do, who knows. They do have those 5 brand new rouge A321a for now.
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beechnut
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Re: AIR CANADA'S A330-300 REPLACEMENT

Mon Jan 09, 2017 11:01 pm

Whiteguy wrote:

The 321s added to the AC fleet were not new, they (along with a few A320s) were added to fill the gap between the MAXs arriving and 20 E190s retiring....


The A321s acquired by Rouge however, are new builds. With those and the A319s at Rouge, if you consider Rouge to be part of the AC family (it certainly is when you book a flight somewhere), then Airbus will still be around for quite a while in the AC fleet.

Beech.
 
ek241yyz
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Re: Air Canada's A330-300 Replacement

Mon Jan 09, 2017 11:03 pm

Only on this site people think AC A333s will be gone really soon, and make dozens of threads asking when.......

They're putting new seats in them. They're not going anywhere yet.
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DDR
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Re: Air Canada's A330-300 Replacement

Mon Jan 09, 2017 11:21 pm

I'm sure the passengers hope they stay around for awhile longer!
 
Orcair
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Re: Air Canada's A330-300 Replacement

Mon Jan 09, 2017 11:52 pm

DDR wrote:
I'm sure the passengers hope they stay around for awhile longer!


As someone who flies YVR-YUL pretty frequently I wholly agree. While the 77Ws and 787s on the YVR-YYZ route might be newer, the wider seats and better seat pitch on the 333s and 763s are hard to beat!
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DFW789ER
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Re: AIR CANADA'S A330-300 REPLACEMENT

Mon Jan 09, 2017 11:52 pm

beechnut wrote:
Whiteguy wrote:

The 321s added to the AC fleet were not new, they (along with a few A320s) were added to fill the gap between the MAXs arriving and 20 E190s retiring....


The A321s acquired by Rouge however, are new builds. With those and the A319s at Rouge, if you consider Rouge to be part of the AC family (it certainly is when you book a flight somewhere), then Airbus will still be around for quite a while in the AC fleet.

Beech.


Is rouge still restricted on the number of aircraft they can operate? Would they ever add 320s once out of the mainline fleet as the 737s arrive? I'd think their 320s are getting up there in years. I can see the 333's sticking around for awhile since they do seem to fit well on the routes they fly.
 
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Re: AIR CANADA'S A330-300 REPLACEMENT

Mon Jan 09, 2017 11:54 pm

767333ER wrote:
keesje wrote:
Whiteguy wrote:

The 321s added to the AC fleet were not new, they (along with a few A320s) were added to fill the gap between the MAXs arriving and 20 E190s retiring....


Air Canada (Rouge) has been boosting its A321 fleet, but low profile. Used, Leased and for AC Rouge. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fBh_Eozqpdc They probably will replace them with the 737-9'MAXs on order. Or not.

So they have 54 A320s and A321s eventually being replaced by 61 of some combination of 737-8 and 737-9. Not that much increase in capacity there. Then they have the total of 45 E90s and 18 A319s being replaced by 45 CS300 and I haven't done the math, but there doesn't seem to be much increase there. I don't see how any of the 737s could go to rouge unless they increase their order with options or whatever. I would like to see them eventually put A321neos in the rouge fleet to replace the A319s but what they'll really do, who knows. They do have those 5 brand new rouge A321a for now.


They're already down to 25 E190's. Haven't heard any plans to add Boeing narrowbodies to Rouge, only speculation seems to be on this site.
 
anrec80
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Re: AIR CANADA'S A330-300 REPLACEMENT

Tue Jan 10, 2017 2:56 am

1900Driver wrote:
Their 333s are still great airplanes despite their age. Perfect for YUL ops with it's closer proximity to Europe. The reconfigure to 292 is perfectly suited for the high volume/lower yield to French speaking markets (with the exception of GVA). Can definitely see them at mainline for the next 5-7 years.


Ouch. Don't tell it's they are gonna re-configure those A-333s into 3-3-3 in Y. As if 3-4-3 in 77W isn't enough.
 
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longhauler
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Re: AIR CANADA'S A330-300 REPLACEMENT

Tue Jan 10, 2017 4:22 am

1900Driver wrote:
Their 333s are still great airplanes despite their age. Perfect for YUL ops with it's closer proximity to Europe. The reconfigure to 292 is perfectly suited for the high volume/lower yield to French speaking markets (with the exception of GVA). Can definitely see them at mainline for the next 5-7 years.

They are perfect for Europe and Domestic ops as there is really no where else the aircraft can fly with a full cargo load. While at Air Canada, it is definitely not high volume/low yield while in a 3 class configuration including lie flat J seats. And while the A330 is a fine aircraft, the seat mile costs are still higher than the 787 which will eventually replace them.

With separate crews and all that entails and separate maintenance with all that entails, (including engines), it makes no sense to keep the aircraft. Unless the reason they stayed this long still exists ... that is, there is still a shortage of wide-body aircraft in the mainline fleet. Remember, accountants don't care that it is a handsome aircraft with comfortable seats.

However, my guess is that they are destined for Rouge. Then we'll see a 3x3x3 configuration that makes us long for Rouge 767s! But ... you only have to look at Transat to see what people will endure.
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briguychau
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Re: AIR CANADA'S A330-300 REPLACEMENT

Tue Jan 10, 2017 7:13 am

anrec80 wrote:
1900Driver wrote:
Their 333s are still great airplanes despite their age. Perfect for YUL ops with it's closer proximity to Europe. The reconfigure to 292 is perfectly suited for the high volume/lower yield to French speaking markets (with the exception of GVA). Can definitely see them at mainline for the next 5-7 years.


Ouch. Don't tell it's they are gonna re-configure those A-333s into 3-3-3 in Y. As if 3-4-3 in 77W isn't enough.


No, it's 2-4-2 still. They got rid of 10 J seats and put in PY and more Y seats.
 
RacheyFlies
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Re: Air Canada's A330-300 Replacement

Tue Jan 10, 2017 8:45 am

The replacement for this type could not happen now, but however my suggestion is their A330 could be replaced by B787-9 if possible or maybe the other types. So when is their 737 MAX will be delivered?
The best plane I've flown is an A380. They were the biggest and the best than other plane I've been on. :lol:
 
diverted
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Re: AIR CANADA'S A330-300 REPLACEMENT

Tue Jan 10, 2017 12:15 pm

longhauler wrote:
1900Driver wrote:
Their 333s are still great airplanes despite their age. Perfect for YUL ops with it's closer proximity to Europe. The reconfigure to 292 is perfectly suited for the high volume/lower yield to French speaking markets (with the exception of GVA). Can definitely see them at mainline for the next 5-7 years.

They are perfect for Europe and Domestic ops as there is really no where else the aircraft can fly with a full cargo load. While at Air Canada, it is definitely not high volume/low yield while in a 3 class configuration including lie flat J seats. And while the A330 is a fine aircraft, the seat mile costs are still higher than the 787 which will eventually replace them.

With separate crews and all that entails and separate maintenance with all that entails, (including engines), it makes no sense to keep the aircraft. Unless the reason they stayed this long still exists ... that is, there is still a shortage of wide-body aircraft in the mainline fleet. Remember, accountants don't care that it is a handsome aircraft with comfortable seats.

However, my guess is that they are destined for Rouge. Then we'll see a 3x3x3 configuration that makes us long for Rouge 767s! But ... you only have to look at Transat to see what people will endure.



I flew TS YYZ-AMS about ten years ago; never again. The only saving grace was the loads were low both directions so at least I had the full row to myself. Aside from that, horrible. But, as always, the dollar rules, and people are willing to put up with it to save a few bucks.


I could see the 300 replacing the 67 at Rouge. While there are some young frames in the fleet (like the ex HA frames) a good portion of them are old, original AC frames. Furthermore, I believe the majority (if not all) are leased.

With the 330NEO around the corner, there's a pile of CEO's out there that are likely to see their values drop significantly. Seems the 67 market has tightened up with the demand for P2F conversions for the likes of Amazon, so I could very easily see the 330's end up at Rouge, along with a handful sourced from the used market as they come off lease with their original operators
 
drgmobile
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Re: Air Canada's A330-300 Replacement

Tue Jan 10, 2017 2:39 pm

My theory is that the A330s will be eventually transferred to Rouge. Yes, I recognise that there is a fleet cap per existing labour agreements of 50 aircraft at Rouge, a limit that will be reached soon.
 
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northstardc4m
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Re: Air Canada's A330-300 Replacement

Tue Jan 10, 2017 3:04 pm

I don't see the 330s going to Rouge anymore... if they keep them they will be mainline. The 330 has better cargo capacity than the 763 which is a benefit more for mainline than Rouge, and the 763 is going to be cheaper to operate on low-premium routes for Rouge than the 330.

The 330s will go eventually, but I've heard so many rumors about when and what will replace them (a few choice ones over the years: 772s leased from UA, more 767s, swapped with DL for their 777-200ERs, 787-10s, more new 777-200LRs...) People said they were going when the 340s went, people said they'd be leased to LH or SAS, people have said so many things about the AC 330 fleet that until I see them stripped of titles/repainted/scrapped/etc I'm not believing anything anymore.
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mjoelnir
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Re: Air Canada's A330-300 Replacement

Tue Jan 10, 2017 3:13 pm

The A330 at Air Canada are about 16 years old. Air Canada's has 13 767 are on average 26 years old. I would expect all 767 to have left the fleet before the first A330 will be replaced. The exception could be that all A330 are on lease contracts that run out in the near future, but as some have been reconfigured last year, I would rather expect for them to stay for a while.
 
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Re: Air Canada's A330-300 Replacement

Tue Jan 10, 2017 4:51 pm

TurnerJet wrote:
The replacement for this type could not happen now, but however my suggestion is their A330 could be replaced by B787-9 if possible or maybe the other types. So when is their 737 MAX will be delivered?


I wouldn't shut the door on the A330NEO yet. No order from AC but we may see A330NEO leases. :stirthepot:
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Rajahdhani
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Re: Air Canada's A330-300 Replacement

Tue Jan 10, 2017 5:49 pm

drgmobile wrote:
My theory is that the A330s will be eventually transferred to Rouge. Yes, I recognise that there is a fleet cap per existing labour agreements of 50 aircraft at Rouge, a limit that will be reached soon.


...therefore, if Rouge wished to grow, in future, replacing 767s for the same number of Rouge-configured A333s (who, coincidentally happen to be either based out of YUL, and/or just transferred over from parent AC) would be a net-increase in capacity, as well as a politically sensitive solution for AC. This would tie rather nicely, into this line of logic;

longhauler wrote:
In my opinion, Air Canada is hedging their bets with keeping available fins around. In the last 10 years, they have been caught short a couple times without enough wide body aircraft.

The long term plan is to fly only two wide body types, the 777 and the 787. The A330 and the 767 are being kept ... just in case that shortfall happens again. Presently, the 767 is based only in YYZ and the A330 in YUL. This is set up so the fleet can be reduced quickly and cheaply should a downturn arise. The latest cabin "refresh" of the A330 was pretty low investment and did not involve the new IFE system being installed in the 777, 787, 737 and CSeries.

It will be a slow transfer of from one to the other, with a lot of overlap.

With the introduction of a new type into the fleet, AC is usually pretty cautious ... not burning bridges behind them until they are sure they are no longer needed.


Logically, this is sound move. Realistically, what are the odds?
 
baje427
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Re: Air Canada's A330-300 Replacement

Tue Jan 10, 2017 6:39 pm

Rouge has essentially take over all of Air Canada's Caribbean ops is it the hope of management to let them also take over North American operations and leave long haul as mainline?
 
drgmobile
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Re: Air Canada's A330-300 Replacement

Tue Jan 10, 2017 7:14 pm

Rajahdhani wrote:
drgmobile wrote:
My theory is that the A330s will be eventually transferred to Rouge. Yes, I recognise that there is a fleet cap per existing labour agreements of 50 aircraft at Rouge, a limit that will be reached soon.


...therefore, if Rouge wished to grow, in future, replacing 767s for the same number of Rouge-configured A333s (who, coincidentally happen to be either based out of YUL, and/or just transferred over from parent AC) would be a net-increase in capacity, as well as a politically sensitive solution for AC. This would tie rather nicely, into this line of logic;


Also, agreements can be opened up if the parties see something to be gained from doing so.
 
SpaceshipDC10
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Re: AIR CANADA'S A330-300 REPLACEMENT

Wed Jan 11, 2017 1:00 am

diverted wrote:
I flew TS YYZ-AMS about ten years ago; never again. The only saving grace was the loads were low both directions so at least I had the full row to myself. Aside from that, horrible.


I believe they have since added a couple of inches pitch, and until not so long ago their A333s were also in a 2-4-2 config.

As for AC's A333s, when it happens, will they replace all of them with B789s?
 
bmacleod
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Re: AIR CANADA'S A330-300 REPLACEMENT

Wed Jan 11, 2017 1:51 pm

SpaceshipDC10 wrote:
diverted wrote:
I flew TS YYZ-AMS about ten years ago; never again. The only saving grace was the loads were low both directions so at least I had the full row to myself. Aside from that, horrible.


I believe they have since added a couple of inches pitch, and until not so long ago their A333s were also in a 2-4-2 config.

As for AC's A333s, when it happens, will they replace all of them with B789s?


As I mentioned above, AC may look at leasing A330NEOs.
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ACCS300
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Re: Air Canada's A330-300 Replacement

Wed Jan 11, 2017 3:28 pm

baje427 wrote:
Rouge has essentially take over all of Air Canada's Caribbean ops is it the hope of management to let them also take over North American operations and leave long haul as mainline?


Don't think that will ever happen. They tried it with all YVR - California routes and had some major pushback, most high profile being Rob Lowe's negative comments about Rouge's lack of a proper business cabin. YVR - LAX had many premium, high-yield pax from the TV and Film Industry which AC risked losing altogether, they quickly recognized this and un-Rouged those routes. The same can be said if they attempt to Rouge other premium Canada - US routes.
 
sixtyseven
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Re: Air Canada's A330-300 Replacement

Wed Jan 11, 2017 6:04 pm

I highly doubt AC is looking at A330NEOs. Longhauler mentioned above that it appears both the 330 and 767 are providing flex lift for the mainline fleet prior to having the full compliment of 787s on property.

They are allowing the company sort of a bonus lift but should a downturn occur they can by exited from the fleet quickly.

AC management is thrilled with the 789. I can't see new Airbus WBs. In fact I see it going this way. I see the 788 going to Rouge when they are able to contractually. And I see the 330 going away and not going to Rouge. I think I'm in the minority there but it's just a gut feeling
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longhauler
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Re: Air Canada's A330-300 Replacement

Wed Jan 11, 2017 10:22 pm

ACCS300 wrote:
Don't think that will ever happen. They tried it with all YVR - California routes and had some major pushback, most high profile being Rob Lowe's negative comments about Rouge's lack of a proper business cabin. YVR - LAX had many premium, high-yield pax from the TV and Film Industry which AC risked losing altogether, they quickly recognized this and un-Rouged those routes. The same can be said if they attempt to Rouge other premium Canada - US routes.

When Air Canada replaced mainline with Rouge on YVR-LAX flights, the market share increased from high teens to over 50%. Most other airlines responded by either pulling out (Alaska) or putting low cost regionals on the route.

The decision to move mainline back onto the route from Rouge had nothing to do with Customer response, as shown, Rouge was doing very well. Any leisure airline has seasonal peaks and valleys, but they were more pronounced out of YVR. So the decision was made to close the Rouge A319 base in YVR. As a result, the YVR-SFO/LAX flights for Rouge became very cumbersome ... and in low season, the only Rouge routes out of YVR! Mainline moved back in.

Customer response however, did play a role in removing the old European style premium cabin (economy seat with the centre seat blocked) on the original A319s and replacing it with a more traditional premium cabin, virtually identical to mainline Business Class. And while I am sure Rob Lowe would like to think he is important somewhere, it was not his petulant public ravings, but response from higher levels of frequent flyers who wanted mainline type comfort on their vacation flights as well that forced this change.
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ACCS300
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Re: Air Canada's A330-300 Replacement

Wed Jan 11, 2017 10:42 pm

Thanks for the clarity longhauler, the local media sure seemed to give Rob Lowe the credit, glad there were more dominant factors involved and VERY glad Rouge narrowbodies rejigged their business class.
 
1900Driver
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Re: AIR CANADA'S A330-300 REPLACEMENT

Thu Jan 12, 2017 3:05 am

longhauler wrote:
1900Driver wrote:
Their 333s are still great airplanes despite their age. Perfect for YUL ops with it's closer proximity to Europe. The reconfigure to 292 is perfectly suited for the high volume/lower yield to French speaking markets (with the exception of GVA). Can definitely see them at mainline for the next 5-7 years.

They are perfect for Europe and Domestic ops as there is really no where else the aircraft can fly with a full cargo load. While at Air Canada, it is definitely not high volume/low yield while in a 3 class configuration including lie flat J seats. And while the A330 is a fine aircraft, the seat mile costs are still higher than the 787 which will eventually replace them.

With separate crews and all that entails and separate maintenance with all that entails, (including engines), it makes no sense to keep the aircraft. Unless the reason they stayed this long still exists ... that is, there is still a shortage of wide-body aircraft in the mainline fleet. Remember, accountants don't care that it is a handsome aircraft with comfortable seats.

However, my guess is that they are destined for Rouge. Then we'll see a 3x3x3 configuration that makes us long for Rouge 767s! But ... you only have to look at Transat to see what people will endure.


Of course it is. Perhaps not comparatively to Transat but from a mainline perspective for sure. The 3 class config (addition of Y+) was meant to reduce the premium config to meet lower yield demand of YUL.

Could the aircraft go to Rouge one day? Perhaps, & we both can see that happening. For the moment, management has eliminated 10 J seats and added Y+ to meet the demands of the YUL market which is a good thing!
 
leyland1989
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Re: Air Canada's A330-300 Replacement

Thu Jan 12, 2017 11:33 pm

I remember reading something similar in 2008...
Everyone was expecting them to be phased out soon after the A343 were gone or once the 787 starting to arrive...

almost 10 years later, they are still going strong...it doesn't look like they are going anywhere soon.
Airbus:319,320,321,332,333,343,345,346,359,388
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RRTrent
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Re: Air Canada's A330-300 Replacement

Wed May 31, 2017 7:32 am

Sorry to bump an old thread, but I read yesterday on Twitter that AC will be operating A333's on YYZ-DUB from October. When I read it I remembered this thread and it being said that AC's 330's fly only out of YUL now, with the 767 being in YYZ. Does any AC people here know about a change of plan for the A330's and having them fly out of YYZ?
 
hkcanadaexpat
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Re: Air Canada's A330-300 Replacement

Wed May 31, 2017 8:28 am

I don't know abut the A333s but the 763s are currently flying out of everywhere basically...
> Calgary-Tokyo
> Montreal-Lyon
> Ottawa/Halifax-London
> Ottawa-Frankfurt
> Toronto-Madrid/LA/SF

Not to mention flights between hubs! So the 763s are a far cry from being consolidated in a single hub...
 
drgmobile
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Re: Air Canada's A330-300 Replacement

Wed May 31, 2017 10:18 am

There has been a long standing rumour/speculation that they might eventually get transferred to Rouge, which does have a 50-aircraft cap that it has reached or soon will reach. They're bigger than the 767s, so they could replace some of those if they want a larger capacity aircraft.
 
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longhauler
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Re: Air Canada's A330-300 Replacement

Wed May 31, 2017 12:30 pm

The pilot base for the A330 is in YUL ... however, the aircraft flies wherever it is needed. The last remaining pilot base for the 767 at mainline is in YYZ.

It was always a crap shoot which was going to be retired first, the A330 or the 767. It appears that the 767 will be retired from mainline before the A330. In my opinion, this is due to the lack of suitable 767s on the market now and they will likely go to Rouge, which is looking for suitable 767s.

The current pilot agreement for Rouge only allows the 767 for widebody equipment. When the 37th 787 is delivered, then something other than the 767 can be used. However, it is on a one for one basis as the 38th and higher 787s are delivered. Although there are options for more than 37 787s, none are ordered. 12 more are to be delivered to reach 37.

The economics of a 280 seat 767 are compelling. It is still somewhat comfortable. Probably more comfortable than a 787 and the A330 which would likely be in a 9 abreast configuration for Rouge.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
StarAC17
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Re: AIR CANADA'S A330-300 REPLACEMENT

Wed May 31, 2017 1:23 pm

longhauler wrote:
1900Driver wrote:
Their 333s are still great airplanes despite their age. Perfect for YUL ops with it's closer proximity to Europe. The reconfigure to 292 is perfectly suited for the high volume/lower yield to French speaking markets (with the exception of GVA). Can definitely see them at mainline for the next 5-7 years.

They are perfect for Europe and Domestic ops as there is really no where else the aircraft can fly with a full cargo load. While at Air Canada, it is definitely not high volume/low yield while in a 3 class configuration including lie flat J seats. And while the A330 is a fine aircraft, the seat mile costs are still higher than the 787 which will eventually replace them.

With separate crews and all that entails and separate maintenance with all that entails, (including engines), it makes no sense to keep the aircraft. Unless the reason they stayed this long still exists ... that is, there is still a shortage of wide-body aircraft in the mainline fleet. Remember, accountants don't care that it is a handsome aircraft with comfortable seats.

However, my guess is that they are destined for Rouge. Then we'll see a 3x3x3 configuration that makes us long for Rouge 767s! But ... you only have to look at Transat to see what people will endure.


I have flown of both the AC 77W and the 789 in the 3x4x3 and 3x3x3 config respectively as well as flying the TS 332 transatlantic which is 3x3x3. I have also flown AC's 333, S4's 332 and TP's 332 which has a 2x4x2 config.

The latter was preferable (mostly because I tend to like the window and you only have to disturb on person when getting up) but the AC and TS setup was by no means horrible and I am 6'2. They were all TATL and I was comfortable on those flights.

Now a TS A310 is horrible in its config, avoid that like the plague.
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RRTrent
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Re: Air Canada's A330-300 Replacement

Wed May 31, 2017 1:31 pm

longhauler wrote:
The pilot base for the A330 is in YUL ... however, the aircraft flies wherever it is needed. The last remaining pilot base for the 767 at mainline is in YYZ.

It was always a crap shoot which was going to be retired first, the A330 or the 767. It appears that the 767 will be retired from mainline before the A330. In my opinion, this is due to the lack of suitable 767s on the market now and they will likely go to Rouge, which is looking for suitable 767s.

The current pilot agreement for Rouge only allows the 767 for widebody equipment. When the 37th 787 is delivered, then something other than the 767 can be used. However, it is on a one for one basis as the 38th and higher 787s are delivered. Although there are options for more than 37 787s, none are ordered. 12 more are to be delivered to reach 37.

The economics of a 280 seat 767 are compelling. It is still somewhat comfortable. Probably more comfortable than a 787 and the A330 which would likely be in a 9 abreast configuration for Rouge.


Very informative post longhauler thank you very much. This clears a lot of my confusion up. Its apparent that what I taught were aircraft bases, are actually a crew bases, and that although they may be based in YUL from a crewing perspective, they still fly them from everywhere.
 
sixtyseven
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Re: Air Canada's A330-300 Replacement

Wed May 31, 2017 2:11 pm

The 787 options start to expire this fall on a plane by plane basis. Fwiw
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CF-CPI
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Re: Air Canada's A330-300 Replacement

Wed May 31, 2017 2:34 pm

sixtyseven wrote:
The 787 options start to expire this fall on a plane by plane basis. Fwiw


Do these options allow AC to choose the variant? It sounds like they are done with the -8 and would like more lift and performance in the sense of -9s or -10s. From the tenor of this thread, they're enthusiastic about bring more in ASAP to fulfill the 777/787- only goal.

In other words, I can't imagine they won't take them.

As an anetter, what I really want is L1011s resurrected from the desert to fill in for any capacity shortfall at AC. :ugeek:
 
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767333ER
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Re: Air Canada's A330-300 Replacement

Wed May 31, 2017 2:36 pm

longhauler wrote:
The pilot base for the A330 is in YUL ... however, the aircraft flies wherever it is needed. The last remaining pilot base for the 767 at mainline is in YYZ.

It was always a crap shoot which was going to be retired first, the A330 or the 767. It appears that the 767 will be retired from mainline before the A330. In my opinion, this is due to the lack of suitable 767s on the market now and they will likely go to Rouge, which is looking for suitable 767s.

The current pilot agreement for Rouge only allows the 767 for widebody equipment. When the 37th 787 is delivered, then something other than the 767 can be used. However, it is on a one for one basis as the 38th and higher 787s are delivered. Although there are options for more than 37 787s, none are ordered. 12 more are to be delivered to reach 37.

The economics of a 280 seat 767 are compelling. It is still somewhat comfortable. Probably more comfortable than a 787 and the A330 which would likely be in a 9 abreast configuration for Rouge.

There was an article that many of us saw about their fleet plans for the upcoming years which mentioned a number of things such as the 737-8 replacing the A320 and the 737-9 supplementing the A321. That was enough to raise some eyebrows there, but at the very article they quoted Ben Smith saying that the mainline 767 fleet will be operating well into the next decade which I'm thinking is the 5 or so not slated for retirement. That's an interesting statement, though, yet I'm still sceptical on how true it actually is. It would probably mean the A330s last at least that long.
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northstardc4m
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Re: Air Canada's A330-300 Replacement

Wed May 31, 2017 3:01 pm

I've been told recently that Rouge is more likely to get the 788s than the 333s. Apparently there is something of a problem with the ownership/leases on the 333s and subleasing them off to Rouge would add a significant penalty?
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yycdel
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Re: Air Canada's A330-300 Replacement

Wed May 31, 2017 3:01 pm

787-10 could be a nice replacement for the A333s, a bit of an upsize and AC can also have a 340-350 seat plane in the fleet again. Right now they have 250, 300, 400, 450 seat planes, but nothing between 300-400. Don't know how important that is for AC though but I guess there should be more than a couple of 789/333 routes in the system which could use a slightly bigger a/c like the 787-10.
 
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longhauler
Posts: 6488
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Re: Air Canada's A330-300 Replacement

Wed May 31, 2017 4:06 pm

hkcanadaexpat wrote:
I don't know abut the A333s but the 763s are currently flying out of everywhere basically...
> Calgary-Tokyo
> Montreal-Lyon
> Ottawa/Halifax-London
> Ottawa-Frankfurt
> Toronto-Madrid/LA/SF

Not to mention flights between hubs! So the 763s are a far cry from being consolidated in a single hub...

The only routes the 767 is presently flying are:

YYZ-YOW-FRA-YOW-YYZ
YYZ-YOW-LHR-YOW-YYZ
YYZ-YHZ-LHR-YHZ-YYZ
YYZ-YYC-NRT-YYC-YYZ
YYZ-YVR-YYZ
YYZ-LAX-YYZ
YYZ-SFO-YYZ
YYZ-YEG-YYZ

(notice the start and stop of all of these routings?)
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
kimimm19
Posts: 434
Joined: Fri Mar 29, 2013 9:34 pm

Re: Air Canada's A330-300 Replacement

Wed May 31, 2017 4:40 pm

CF-CPI wrote:
sixtyseven wrote:
The 787 options start to expire this fall on a plane by plane basis. Fwiw


Do these options allow AC to choose the variant? It sounds like they are done with the -8 and would like more lift and performance in the sense of -9s or -10s. From the tenor of this thread, they're enthusiastic about bring more in ASAP to fulfill the 777/787- only goal.

In other words, I can't imagine they won't take them.

As an anetter, what I really want is L1011s resurrected from the desert to fill in for any capacity shortfall at AC. :ugeek:


A very interesting point, as given the lack of range needed for European operations from YYZ and YUL and looking at the packing sardines model in the 77W, this could be a very wise choice getting some 787-10s...

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