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global1
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DL shatters operational reliability

Tue Jan 10, 2017 12:43 am

For 241 days last year, Delta didn't cancel a mainline flight anywhere in the world. Including Delta Connection, the airline had 81 "brand days"in which no flights were cancelled on either the mainline or regional side of the operation, beating last year's 11-a record at the time.

When cancellations as a result of weather, geopolitical concerns, or other factors generally outside of Delta's control are removed from the equation, TechOps set another industry record: 302 days of flying without a single maintenance related cancellation.

System-wide on time performance, including DL connection, was 84.7% for the year. Mainline was 86.3%.

These statistics are highlighted in the Official Airline Guide's 2016 annual performance results report, based on the group's own reporting.

Truly impressive numbers.
 
deltal1011man
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Re: DL shatters operational reliability

Tue Jan 10, 2017 12:57 am

global1 wrote:
For 241 days last year, Delta didn't cancel a mainline flight anywhere in the world. Including Delta Connection, the airline had 81 "brand days"in which no flights were cancelled on either the mainline or regional side of the operation, beating last year's 11-a record at the time.

When cancellations as a result of weather, geopolitical concerns, or other factors generally outside of Delta's control are removed from the equation, TechOps set another industry record: 302 days of flying without a single maintenance related cancellation.

System-wide on time performance, including DL connection, was 84.7% for the year. Mainline was 86.3%.

These statistics are highlighted in the Official Airline Guide's 2016 annual performance results report, based on the group's own reporting.

Truly impressive numbers.

Good job TechOps. Good job all Delta employees. Also good to see DCI starting to get better.

Hopefully DL management will see value in TechOps and stop sending work they said would stay in-house to vendors....... Or crazy idea, maybe bring some work in-house.....
 
DiamondFlyer
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Re: DL shatters operational reliability

Tue Jan 10, 2017 1:05 am

deltal1011man wrote:
global1 wrote:
For 241 days last year, Delta didn't cancel a mainline flight anywhere in the world. Including Delta Connection, the airline had 81 "brand days"in which no flights were cancelled on either the mainline or regional side of the operation, beating last year's 11-a record at the time.

When cancellations as a result of weather, geopolitical concerns, or other factors generally outside of Delta's control are removed from the equation, TechOps set another industry record: 302 days of flying without a single maintenance related cancellation.

System-wide on time performance, including DL connection, was 84.7% for the year. Mainline was 86.3%.

These statistics are highlighted in the Official Airline Guide's 2016 annual performance results report, based on the group's own reporting.

Truly impressive numbers.

Good job TechOps. Good job all Delta employees. Also good to see DCI starting to get better.

Hopefully DL management will see value in TechOps and stop sending work they said would stay in-house to vendors....... Or crazy idea, maybe bring some work in-house.....


Delta has found out that if they bring some of the DCI in house and spend a little bit of money, they can get quality performance that is very close to mainline. I'd look for a further insourcing of DCI flying.
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deltal1011man
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Re: DL shatters operational reliability

Tue Jan 10, 2017 1:11 am

DiamondFlyer wrote:
deltal1011man wrote:
global1 wrote:
For 241 days last year, Delta didn't cancel a mainline flight anywhere in the world. Including Delta Connection, the airline had 81 "brand days"in which no flights were cancelled on either the mainline or regional side of the operation, beating last year's 11-a record at the time.

When cancellations as a result of weather, geopolitical concerns, or other factors generally outside of Delta's control are removed from the equation, TechOps set another industry record: 302 days of flying without a single maintenance related cancellation.

System-wide on time performance, including DL connection, was 84.7% for the year. Mainline was 86.3%.

These statistics are highlighted in the Official Airline Guide's 2016 annual performance results report, based on the group's own reporting.

Truly impressive numbers.

Good job TechOps. Good job all Delta employees. Also good to see DCI starting to get better.

Hopefully DL management will see value in TechOps and stop sending work they said would stay in-house to vendors....... Or crazy idea, maybe bring some work in-house.....


Delta has found out that if they bring some of the DCI in house and spend a little bit of money, they can get quality performance that is very close to mainline. I'd look for a further insourcing of DCI flying.

Being DCI in-house would mean bring that work to mainline Delta. (which they have been doing to a point)

9E is no more in-house than DGS is. Sorry. (but hey, its nice to see TechOps doing more and more of DCI's maintenance again.)
 
DiamondFlyer
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Re: DL shatters operational reliability

Tue Jan 10, 2017 1:46 am

deltal1011man wrote:
DiamondFlyer wrote:
deltal1011man wrote:
Good job TechOps. Good job all Delta employees. Also good to see DCI starting to get better.

Hopefully DL management will see value in TechOps and stop sending work they said would stay in-house to vendors....... Or crazy idea, maybe bring some work in-house.....


Delta has found out that if they bring some of the DCI in house and spend a little bit of money, they can get quality performance that is very close to mainline. I'd look for a further insourcing of DCI flying.

Being DCI in-house would mean bring that work to mainline Delta. (which they have been doing to a point)

9E is no more in-house than DGS is. Sorry. (but hey, its nice to see TechOps doing more and more of DCI's maintenance again.)


They have significantly more control over what happens at 9E than they do at OO, EV or G7, that's for sure.
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PSU.DTW.SCE
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Re: DL shatters operational reliability

Tue Jan 10, 2017 2:32 am

These threads are so predictable.

1) Hate on DCI carriers
2) Hate on outsourced carriers/contractors/third party vendors
3) Hate on how DL would rather delay a flight 6+ hours than cancel
4) Hate on how DL pads their schedule
5) Hate on DL for screwing DTW & MSP
6) Hate on DL for flying old planes
7) Hate on DL for ordering Airbus
8) Hate on DL for ordering Boeing

/end thread.
 
wilcal
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Re: DL shatters operational reliability

Tue Jan 10, 2017 3:18 am

Impressive stuff for sure, but weren't they delaying some flights like 18+ hours to prevent them from being cancelled?
 
flyabr
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Re: DL shatters operational reliability

Tue Jan 10, 2017 3:31 am

now if only OO were as "reliable"! :-(
 
deltal1011man
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Re: DL shatters operational reliability

Tue Jan 10, 2017 3:33 am

wilcal wrote:
Impressive stuff for sure, but weren't they delaying some flights like 18+ hours to prevent them from being cancelled?

Every other airline does this and the numbers are pretty comparable between the big 3. The number is less than a rounding error when you look at all the flights in the systems on the month. IIRC there is a thread around here about it.
 
MSPNWA
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Re: DL shatters operational reliability

Tue Jan 10, 2017 4:18 am

wilcal wrote:
Impressive stuff for sure, but weren't they delaying some flights like 18+ hours to prevent them from being cancelled?


Yes. And DL is doing it to falsely claim they had a "cancel-free" day. Sometimes the aircraft is ferried empty. I've seen UA and AA delay until the next day for international flights, but I don't see it often, and DL's rate of long delays was proven to be much higher in the recent past. And I also don't know any other airline that ferries a plane empty to "complete" the flight. It's fraud. And it's sad too. They have no need to lie to consumers. If they were truthful, they'd still have great numbers that then could be something to take pride in.

Edit: Here was the thread back in 2015. Posts 92+ - viewtopic.php?f=3&t=594855
 
deltal1011man
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Re: DL shatters operational reliability

Tue Jan 10, 2017 4:29 am

MSPNWA wrote:
wilcal wrote:
Impressive stuff for sure, but weren't they delaying some flights like 18+ hours to prevent them from being cancelled?


Yes. And DL is doing it to falsely claim they had a "cancel-free" day. Sometimes the aircraft is ferried empty. I've seen UA and AA delay until the next day for international flights, but I don't see it often, and DL's rate of long delays was proven to be much higher in the recent past. And I also don't know any other airline that ferries a plane empty to "complete" the flight. It's fraud. And it's sad too. They have no need to lie to consumers. If they were truthful, they'd still have great numbers that then could be something to take pride in.

Edit: Here was the thread back in 2015. Posts 92+ - viewtopic.php?f=3&t=594855


1 month from over 2 years ago is the best you have? And at that you are talking about less than a percent of DL's operations? GMAFB.

when is the DOT going to get them since its clearly fraud? Why haven't you gone to the DOT about such an obvious and clear problem? :roll: :roll:


All this is, as normal by you, is a positive DL number but since its DL not NW you have to find a way to cry and complain about it. its almost been 10 years, time to move on and get over it dude.
 
Nicoeddf
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Re: DL shatters operational reliability

Tue Jan 10, 2017 6:51 am

deltal1011man wrote:

Hopefully DL management will see value in TechOps and stop sending work they said would stay in-house to vendors....... Or crazy idea, maybe bring some work in-house.....


Or maybe, just maybe the vendors made such a tremendous job keeping up operational reliability while at the same time being more cost efficient, so that DL was able to invest the money in even more measures to improve operational reliability?
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BobPatterson
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Re: DL shatters operational reliability

Tue Jan 10, 2017 7:12 am

Delta manages to cancel plenty of flights. They also sometimes prefer to have obscenely late flights rather than cancel them. Playing a numbers game.

July, 2016 - T100 Data............Delta................Alaska

On Time - 0:00-0:14 late.....68,298...82%.....14,537...90%
00:15-00:59 mins late.........12,014................1,584
01:00-01:59 late...................1,370....................51
02:00-02:59 late......................680....................21
03:00-03:59 late......................332......................9
04:00-04:59 late......................156......................3
05:00-05:59 late........................82......................4
06:00-06:59 late........................61......................4
07:00-07:59 late........................39
08:00-08:59 late........................14
09:00-09:59 late........................11
10:00-10:59 late........................12
11:00-11:59 late..........................9
12:00-12:59 late..........................9
13:00-13:59 late........................13
14:00-14:59 late........................14
15:00-15:59 late..........................4
16:00-16:59 late..........................5
17:00-16:59 late..........................2
18:00-18:59 late..........................1
Total Flights Scored.............83,126..............16,213

Late Flights.........................14,828................1,675
Diverts Reached Destination......300....................18
Total Late Flights..................15,128...18%......1,693...10%

More than 3 hrs. late.................764....................20
More than 12 hrs. late.................48......................0

Flights Scored......................83,126..............16,213
Diverted Flights.........................310.....................23
Cancelled Flights......................241.....................20
Total Rows in File.................83,677...............16,256
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ghifty
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Re: DL shatters operational reliability

Tue Jan 10, 2017 7:51 am

BobPatterson wrote:
Delta manages to cancel plenty of flights. They also sometimes prefer to have obscenely late flights rather than cancel them. Playing a numbers game.

July, 2016 - T100 Data............Delta................Alaska

On Time - 0:00-0:14 late.....68,298...82%.....14,537...90%
00:15-00:59 mins late.........12,014................1,584
01:00-01:59 late...................1,370....................51
02:00-02:59 late......................680....................21
03:00-03:59 late......................332......................9
04:00-04:59 late......................156......................3
05:00-05:59 late........................82......................4
06:00-06:59 late........................61......................4
07:00-07:59 late........................39
08:00-08:59 late........................14
09:00-09:59 late........................11
10:00-10:59 late........................12
11:00-11:59 late..........................9
12:00-12:59 late..........................9
13:00-13:59 late........................13
14:00-14:59 late........................14
15:00-15:59 late..........................4
16:00-16:59 late..........................5
17:00-16:59 late..........................2
18:00-18:59 late..........................1
Total Flights Scored.............83,126..............16,213

Late Flights.........................14,828................1,675
Diverts Reached Destination......300....................18
Total Late Flights..................15,128...18%......1,693...10%

More than 3 hrs. late.................764....................20
More than 12 hrs. late.................48......................0

Flights Scored......................83,126..............16,213
Diverted Flights.........................310.....................23
Cancelled Flights......................241.....................20
Total Rows in File.................83,677...............16,256


Where's the data for AA/UA which would paint an actually comparable picture? Or is this the numbers game.

DL is saying they didn't cancel 86.3% of flights, nothing else.
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PSU.DTW.SCE
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Re: DL shatters operational reliability

Tue Jan 10, 2017 1:49 pm

There are a multitude of reasons why very delayed flights are still flow. Particularly in this era of extremely high load factors they need the seats/capacity to move the backlog of people and to reposition the airplane back into its normal rotation or for a RON.

Plus they may need hours to get parts, a spare aircraft, mechanics/AOG teams, relief crews, required crew rest perid, airport curfews, or due to international time zones.

I'll use an example that sometimes happens in ATL when they get thunderstorms in the evening. They will push the last bank of flights that normally departs around 10-11pm out until 2-3am, and even some cases for the very short routes like AGS, CAE, SAV, etc reschedule the flight that would normally have been a RON to instead depart ATL at like 5:30am and then turn right back around for what would've been its morning launch flight to ATL.
 
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flymco753
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Re: DL shatters operational reliability

Tue Jan 10, 2017 2:26 pm

If there's any hub to thank it would be DTW, after all it's ranked very low for delays for an airport this size, the lower the better. Closely following are ATL and MSP.
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Cubsrule
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Re: DL shatters operational reliability

Tue Jan 10, 2017 2:53 pm

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
There are a multitude of reasons why very delayed flights are still flow. Particularly in this era of extremely high load factors they need the seats/capacity to move the backlog of people and to reposition the airplane back into its normal rotation or for a RON.

Plus they may need hours to get parts, a spare aircraft, mechanics/AOG teams, relief crews, required crew rest perid, airport curfews, or due to international time zones.

I'll use an example that sometimes happens in ATL when they get thunderstorms in the evening. They will push the last bank of flights that normally departs around 10-11pm out until 2-3am, and even some cases for the very short routes like AGS, CAE, SAV, etc reschedule the flight that would normally have been a RON to instead depart ATL at like 5:30am and then turn right back around for what would've been its morning launch flight to ATL.


I don't think the point is that delaying the flights rather than canceling them is bad. The point is that delaying the flights rather than cancelling them and then boasting about the lack of cancellations is disingenuous. The counter-argument, of course, is that DL's A15 numbers are pretty good.

For me the bigger problem is the effect that the obsession with D0 has on customer service. I've noticed many more agents who are not very nice to passengers, especially in ATL, lately.
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Osubuckeyes
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Re: DL shatters operational reliability

Tue Jan 10, 2017 4:04 pm

Delta seems to be the most reliable carrier in a lot of ways. However I think my main issues that I have with them in terms of how they delay, and how they pad are when they are out of whack with other carriers. I'm not a fan at all on 30 minute rolling delays that turn into overnight or 10+ hour delays this has happened twice this year to me. I understand that DL cannot predict everything and sometimes cannot cancel in order to have space available/positioning, but it influences rebooking decisions and how customers use DL's multitude of customer rebooking tools. IMO, it is better to over delay/cancel then leave uncertainty in my mind, but opinions will certainly vary. As far as padding I don't have any issue with it what so ever until it becomes really out of line with other carriers.... I've seen certain Delta flights that are 30+ minutes longer than competition, maybe you are over scheduling your flights and contributing to airports congestion problems particularly at LGA, JFK, and increasingly LAX.
 
PI4EVER
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Re: DL shatters operational reliability

Tue Jan 10, 2017 6:37 pm

I find fault with an apparent lack of consistency in whatever policy DL adheres to concerning missed connections via hubs, and how employees are trained to deal with it. I've been in this business for many years, and have a knowledge and understanding of operational issues that can disrupt the airline operation very easily. I found my patience was severely tested as a revenue passenger on an October trip w/DL that was compounded by a manner of indifference and rudeness when things went haywire.
A family member and I were ticketed to fly SFO-MSP-TPA. Due to an equipment swap, we were delayed departing SFO awaiting crew coming in on an inbound flight. We were airborne 63 minutes late out of SFO with assurances "all connections will be made in MSP. Relax and enjoy your flight."
On arrival in MSP we waited an additional 15 minutes on the ramp awaiting a gate so as we hustled to the gate I saw our MD90 push back. As I approached the desk the agent smiled and said "you were denied boarding anyway. Sorry."
The later MSP-TPA nonstop was oversold, so the agent rebooked us MSP-ATL-TPA and upgraded us to F on the MSP-ATL leg once she realized we were not denied boarding and that MSP had released the TPA flight to depart at D0.
We boarded the 757 to ATL on-time and was immediately notified by a crew announcement that our departure would be delayed "awaiting late arriving connecting passengers." We departed the gate 44 minutes late and following a somewhat amusing announcement that "connections will be made because every flight is late out of Atlanta tonight."
On arrival in ATL we hustled to Concourse E (from A) because the 739 operating to TPA had been a Caribbean or Mexico flight to clear customs. It was however not amusing to watch the agent re-enter the gate from the jetway door and loudly ask "And where have you been.? Going to Tampa? Gone."
She advised us to rebook at the Customer Service kiosk and promptly reentered the jetway closing the door behind her.
We were rebooked by a very nice agent at the Customer Service Desk for what would be the last departure of the evening to TPA. We headed off to a bar to eat and enjoy a final evening nightcap.
We boarded the MD90 and sat on the plane for 35 minutes until an announcement was made the flight was being held for 11 other persons connecting from a late flight "that are flying to Tampa to board a cruise ship." The fact that the cruise ship didn't sail from Tampa until tomorrow afternoon obviously had little effect on deciding to hold the airplane in ATL for them to show up. There was even a DL non-rev boarded who would have otherwise missed the flight had it not been held! I was not a happy customer at that point.
A long story concludes. We flew safely of course after the Farkel Family showed up and we arrived in TPA 7 hours and 22 minutes later than originally scheduled.
In writing DL a nicely worded letter of our somewhat inconsistent "we hold" or don't hold policy of inconvenience, our letter response did not address the delays and missed connections at all, but addressed Delta's mission to provide safe, on-time and reliable service "our customers have come to expect", thanked us for our business and "awarded" us 10,000 bonus Sky Miles "in goodwill for your inconvenience."
At the end of the day DL, how many times is this scenario repeated when stations are mandated to operate to schedule and employees are prone to assume the customer is at fault or for whatever reason, will get home eventually.
I can deal with operational issues that I understand can occur. I do resent an indifferent and insolent attitude on behalf of employees dealing with irregular situations or customers being told standard jargon to just get rid of them.
No delays were a result of mechanical or weather related issues.
Last edited by PI4EVER on Tue Jan 10, 2017 6:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Revelation
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Re: DL shatters operational reliability

Tue Jan 10, 2017 7:03 pm

MSPNWA wrote:
wilcal wrote:
Impressive stuff for sure, but weren't they delaying some flights like 18+ hours to prevent them from being cancelled?


Yes. And DL is doing it to falsely claim they had a "cancel-free" day. Sometimes the aircraft is ferried empty. I've seen UA and AA delay until the next day for international flights, but I don't see it often, and DL's rate of long delays was proven to be much higher in the recent past. And I also don't know any other airline that ferries a plane empty to "complete" the flight. It's fraud. And it's sad too. They have no need to lie to consumers. If they were truthful, they'd still have great numbers that then could be something to take pride in.

Edit: Here was the thread back in 2015. Posts 92+ - viewtopic.php?f=3&t=594855

Such behavior will probably get the feds to jump in and define 'cancel' so games like this can't be played.

Seems the main thing that was 'shattered' here was DL's credibility...
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flyboy80
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Re: DL shatters operational reliability

Tue Jan 10, 2017 7:24 pm

Does it cost more money for Delta to maintain this? I've seen where they've substituted 757s for 717s with 100 open seats in order to complete a segment.
 
jumbojet
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Re: DL shatters operational reliability

Tue Jan 10, 2017 9:09 pm

The reason why no other US legacy will match this (and most regional airlines) is because of the DL heritage and the DL culture. I truly believe that most other airlines for whatever reason are just not willing to go the extra mile. Way to go DL, congrats. This is what separates DL from the competition, its all around operational reliability AND there willingness to fess up and apologize when they know they F'd up.
Last edited by jumbojet on Tue Jan 10, 2017 9:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 14566
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Re: DL shatters operational reliability

Tue Jan 10, 2017 9:23 pm

keitherson wrote:
PI4EVER wrote:
I find fault with an apparent lack of consistency in whatever policy DL adheres to concerning missed connections via hubs, and how employees are trained to deal with it. I've been in this business for many years, and have a knowledge and understanding of operational issues that can disrupt the airline operation very easily. I found my patience was severely tested as a revenue passenger on an October trip w/DL that was compounded by a manner of indifference and rudeness when things went haywire.
A family member and I were ticketed to fly SFO-MSP-TPA. Due to an equipment swap, we were delayed departing SFO awaiting crew coming in on an inbound flight. We were airborne 63 minutes late out of SFO with assurances "all connections will be made in MSP. Relax and enjoy your flight."
On arrival in MSP we waited an additional 15 minutes on the ramp awaiting a gate so as we hustled to the gate I saw our MD90 push back. As I approached the desk the agent smiled and said "you were denied boarding anyway. Sorry."
The later MSP-TPA nonstop was oversold, so the agent rebooked us MSP-ATL-TPA and upgraded us to F on the MSP-ATL leg once she realized we were not denied boarding and that MSP had released the TPA flight to depart at D0.
We boarded the 757 to ATL on-time and was immediately notified by a crew announcement that our departure would be delayed "awaiting late arriving connecting passengers." We departed the gate 44 minutes late and following a somewhat amusing announcement that "connections will be made because every flight is late out of Atlanta tonight."
On arrival in ATL we hustled to Concourse E (from A) because the 739 operating to TPA had been a Caribbean or Mexico flight to clear customs. It was however not amusing to watch the agent re-enter the gate from the jetway door and loudly ask "And where have you been.? Going to Tampa? Gone."
She advised us to rebook at the Customer Service kiosk and promptly reentered the jetway closing the door behind her.
We were rebooked by a very nice agent at the Customer Service Desk for what would be the last departure of the evening to TPA. We headed off to a bar to eat and enjoy a final evening nightcap.
We boarded the MD90 and sat on the plane for 35 minutes until an announcement was made the flight was being held for 11 other persons connecting from a late flight "that are flying to Tampa to board a cruise ship." The fact that the cruise ship didn't sail from Tampa until tomorrow afternoon obviously had little effect on deciding to hold the airplane in ATL for them to show up. There was even a DL non-rev boarded who would have otherwise missed the flight had it not been held! I was not a happy customer at that point.
A long story concludes. We flew safely of course after the Farkel Family showed up and we arrived in TPA 7 hours and 22 minutes later than originally scheduled.
In writing DL a nicely worded letter of our somewhat inconsistent "we hold" or don't hold policy of inconvenience, our letter response did not address the delays and missed connections at all, but addressed Delta's mission to provide safe, on-time and reliable service "our customers have come to expect", thanked us for our business and "awarded" us 10,000 bonus Sky Miles "in goodwill for your inconvenience."
At the end of the day DL, how many times is this scenario repeated when stations are mandated to operate to schedule and employees are prone to assume the customer is at fault or for whatever reason, will get home eventually.
I can deal with operational issues that I understand can occur. I do resent an indifferent and insolent attitude on behalf of employees dealing with irregular situations or customers being told standard jargon to just get rid of them.
No delays were a result of mechanical or weather related issues.


So you got upgraded to F, 10k SkyMiles, and complained because they held the plane for late arriving passengers other than yourself, something that could have saved your @ss when connecting through MSP or ATL?

A.Netters are unbelievable


I don't want to speak for him, but for me the bad employee attitudes in ATL are getting really old. I remember when I was silver two or three years ago, I had several employees in ATL fall over themselves to thank me for my loyalty, almost ridiculously so. Now, the "gone" attitude he experienced is becoming much more prevalent.
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Acey559
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Re: DL shatters operational reliability

Tue Jan 10, 2017 9:40 pm

jumbojet wrote:
The reason why no other US legacy will match this (and most regional airlines) is because of the DL heritage and the DL culture. I truly believe that most other airlines for whatever reason are just not willing to go the extra mile. Way to go DL, congrats. This is what separates DL from the competition, its all around operational reliability AND there willingness to fess up and apologize when they know they F'd up.


AA has been phenomenal to me, even before I made Platinum. I've been on about 20 DL flights in the past year (small potatoes, I know) and was delayed on more than half and not a single flight was memorable with the exception of the sardine can 757 I was on from ATL-SEA a couple weeks ago. I'm not a DL hater by any means, but my experiences with AA have been exceptional and DL has been ho hum. There are two sides to every coin.
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MSPNWA
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Re: DL shatters operational reliability

Tue Jan 10, 2017 10:02 pm

BobPatterson wrote:
July, 2016 - T100 Data............Delta................Alaska


Thanks for the info. It's another valuable data point exposing the behavior. I assume this is mainline and domestic only? For July 2015, enilria posted that DL had 283 mainline domestic delays beyond 4 hours. If we're talking apples to apples, that figure increased to 432 in July 2016. DL's mainline cancellation percentage and cancel-free day reports would take a big hit if they were more honest.

Good to see that AS clearly does not practice it.

flyboy80 wrote:
Does it cost more money for Delta to maintain this? I've seen where they've substituted 757s for 717s with 100 open seats in order to complete a segment.


I assume it does in many cases, but I imagine they're counting on a larger financial gain from the misleading advertising creating a false perception of the product.
 
jumbojet
Posts: 2957
Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2003 3:01 am

Re: DL shatters operational reliability

Tue Jan 10, 2017 10:04 pm

Acey559 wrote:
jumbojet wrote:
The reason why no other US legacy will match this (and most regional airlines) is because of the DL heritage and the DL culture. I truly believe that most other airlines for whatever reason are just not willing to go the extra mile. Way to go DL, congrats. This is what separates DL from the competition, its all around operational reliability AND there willingness to fess up and apologize when they know they F'd up.


AA has been phenomenal to me, even before I made Platinum. I've been on about 20 DL flights in the past year (small potatoes, I know) and was delayed on more than half and not a single flight was memorable with the exception of the sardine can 757 I was on from ATL-SEA a couple weeks ago. I'm not a DL hater by any means, but my experiences with AA have been exceptional and DL has been ho hum. There are two sides to every coin.


But the stats speak for themselves. Look at the on-time stats and the ML completion stats. DL is quite a bit ahead of AA, not only in that area but in many customer service departments that matter like lost baggage and customer complaints. Like you said, two sides to every coin but the DOT stats is hard data, something people can bite there teeth into.

Unrelated but does AA have the baggage tracker feature? Absolutely love being able to track my checked bags whereabouts on the Delta app as well as receiving updates via SMS messenger, from it being loaded on the plane (the right one hopefully) to it being taken off the plane and it arriving at the baggage carousel.
Last edited by jumbojet on Tue Jan 10, 2017 10:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
Cubsrule
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Re: DL shatters operational reliability

Tue Jan 10, 2017 10:07 pm

jumbojet wrote:
Acey559 wrote:
jumbojet wrote:
The reason why no other US legacy will match this (and most regional airlines) is because of the DL heritage and the DL culture. I truly believe that most other airlines for whatever reason are just not willing to go the extra mile. Way to go DL, congrats. This is what separates DL from the competition, its all around operational reliability AND there willingness to fess up and apologize when they know they F'd up.


AA has been phenomenal to me, even before I made Platinum. I've been on about 20 DL flights in the past year (small potatoes, I know) and was delayed on more than half and not a single flight was memorable with the exception of the sardine can 757 I was on from ATL-SEA a couple weeks ago. I'm not a DL hater by any means, but my experiences with AA have been exceptional and DL has been ho hum. There are two sides to every coin.


But the stats speak for themselves. Look at the on-time stats and the ML completion stats. DL is quite a bit ahead of AA, not only in that area but in many customer service departments that matter like lost baggage and customer complaints. Like you said, two sides to every coin but the DOT stats is hard data, something people can bite there teeth into.


I don't know that the hard data mean all that much to most travelers, though. Even the most prolific traveler does not access the whole network equally. So if, for instance, AA consistently does better than DL at OKC and you live in Oklahoma City, that might be a reason to prefer AA despite the data.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
jumbojet
Posts: 2957
Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2003 3:01 am

Re: DL shatters operational reliability

Tue Jan 10, 2017 10:13 pm

MSPNWA wrote:
BobPatterson wrote:
July, 2016 - T100 Data............Delta................Alaska


Thanks for the info. It's another valuable data point exposing the behavior. I assume this is mainline and domestic only? For July 2015, enilria posted that DL had 283 mainline domestic delays beyond 4 hours. If we're talking apples to apples, that figure increased to 432 in July 2016. DL's mainline cancellation percentage and cancel-free day reports would take a big hit if they were more honest.

Good to see that AS clearly does not practice it.

flyboy80 wrote:
Does it cost more money for Delta to maintain this? I've seen where they've substituted 757s for 717s with 100 open seats in order to complete a segment.


I assume it does in many cases, but I imagine they're counting on a larger financial gain from the misleading advertising creating a false perception of the product.


There counting on getting people where they need to get to in as timely a manner as possible, whether that be on a 717 or a 757, I seriously doubt people care. I wouldn't. Choice A is flying Delta who will get me to my final destination on a different plane than what they advertised but with only a 5 hour delay or choice B, brand X airline who will cancel my flight and get me on the next days flight on the same plane that I booked my flight on.... Let me think for a moment... I'll take DL every time.
 
ikramerica
Posts: 15100
Joined: Mon May 23, 2005 9:33 am

Re: DL shatters operational reliability

Tue Jan 10, 2017 10:17 pm

PI4EVER wrote:
I find fault with an apparent lack of consistency in whatever policy DL adheres to concerning missed connections via hubs, and how employees are trained to deal with it. I've been in this business for many years, and have a knowledge and understanding of operational issues that can disrupt the airline operation very easily. I found my patience was severely tested as a revenue passenger on an October trip w/DL that was compounded by a manner of indifference and rudeness when things went haywire.
...
At the end of the day DL, how many times is this scenario repeated when stations are mandated to operate to schedule and employees are prone to assume the customer is at fault or for whatever reason, will get home eventually.
I can deal with operational issues that I understand can occur. I do resent an indifferent and insolent attitude on behalf of employees dealing with irregular situations or customers being told standard jargon to just get rid of them.
No delays were a result of mechanical or weather related issues.

They pulled this garbage on my brother. We were on a flight from Nassau to ATL and then we were connecting to different fights.
The Nassau flight was very late leaving due to the complete laziness of the Nassau staff. Clear day, nice morning, just slow as molasses baggage handling.

We get to ATL in time for my bro to make his Austin connection but they closed the door early and told him tough luck, gotta be there 10 minutes before. They claimed our earlier flight was delayed by weather. Lie. No weather along the way.

They couldn't rebook him until the next morning. And were completely "oh well" about it.

The truth of what happened to you and him is that DLs real policy is to only hold flights that aren't oversold. If they are missing 4 people buy oversold by 5, they will release the plane. If they are waiting for 11 and only have 2 people on standby, the plane will wait for you. All the rest is lipservice.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
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klm617
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Re: DL shatters operational reliability

Tue Jan 10, 2017 10:53 pm

PI4EVER wrote:
I find fault with an apparent lack of consistency in whatever policy DL adheres to concerning missed connections via hubs, and how employees are trained to deal with it. I've been in this business for many years, and have a knowledge and understanding of operational issues that can disrupt the airline operation very easily. I found my patience was severely tested as a revenue passenger on an October trip w/DL that was compounded by a manner of indifference and rudeness when things went haywire.
A family member and I were ticketed to fly SFO-MSP-TPA. Due to an equipment swap, we were delayed departing SFO awaiting crew coming in on an inbound flight. We were airborne 63 minutes late out of SFO with assurances "all connections will be made in MSP. Relax and enjoy your flight."
On arrival in MSP we waited an additional 15 minutes on the ramp awaiting a gate so as we hustled to the gate I saw our MD90 push back. As I approached the desk the agent smiled and said "you were denied boarding anyway. Sorry."
The later MSP-TPA nonstop was oversold, so the agent rebooked us MSP-ATL-TPA and upgraded us to F on the MSP-ATL leg once she realized we were not denied boarding and that MSP had released the TPA flight to depart at D0.
We boarded the 757 to ATL on-time and was immediately notified by a crew announcement that our departure would be delayed "awaiting late arriving connecting passengers." We departed the gate 44 minutes late and following a somewhat amusing announcement that "connections will be made because every flight is late out of Atlanta tonight."
On arrival in ATL we hustled to Concourse E (from A) because the 739 operating to TPA had been a Caribbean or Mexico flight to clear customs. It was however not amusing to watch the agent re-enter the gate from the jetway door and loudly ask "And where have you been.? Going to Tampa? Gone."
She advised us to rebook at the Customer Service kiosk and promptly reentered the jetway closing the door behind her.
We were rebooked by a very nice agent at the Customer Service Desk for what would be the last departure of the evening to TPA. We headed off to a bar to eat and enjoy a final evening nightcap.
We boarded the MD90 and sat on the plane for 35 minutes until an announcement was made the flight was being held for 11 other persons connecting from a late flight "that are flying to Tampa to board a cruise ship." The fact that the cruise ship didn't sail from Tampa until tomorrow afternoon obviously had little effect on deciding to hold the airplane in ATL for them to show up. There was even a DL non-rev boarded who would have otherwise missed the flight had it not been held! I was not a happy customer at that point.
A long story concludes. We flew safely of course after the Farkel Family showed up and we arrived in TPA 7 hours and 22 minutes later than originally scheduled.
In writing DL a nicely worded letter of our somewhat inconsistent "we hold" or don't hold policy of inconvenience, our letter response did not address the delays and missed connections at all, but addressed Delta's mission to provide safe, on-time and reliable service "our customers have come to expect", thanked us for our business and "awarded" us 10,000 bonus Sky Miles "in goodwill for your inconvenience."
At the end of the day DL, how many times is this scenario repeated when stations are mandated to operate to schedule and employees are prone to assume the customer is at fault or for whatever reason, will get home eventually.
I can deal with operational issues that I understand can occur. I do resent an indifferent and insolent attitude on behalf of employees dealing with irregular situations or customers being told standard jargon to just get rid of them.
No delays were a result of mechanical or weather related issues.



I have to agree 100% with this comment have had connection issues every time I have transited at Atlanta rude uninformed CSAs. I watched my plane push back from the gate as I ran through the terminal trying to catch my flight only to be left to fend for myself to find a viable option to get to my destination because no one that I had contact with at the Atlanta hub was equipped to get me home in a timely manner. Their basic procedure is to have you stand by for each flight to your destination and hope you get on so you find yourself running from one gate to the next if every one of the flights to your festination is over sold. A better way to gauge how well Delta is doing is by the number of displaced passengers Delta has on a daily basis due to operational delays or flights being oversold not how many flights are canceled.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
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Acey559
Posts: 1394
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Re: DL shatters operational reliability

Tue Jan 10, 2017 11:00 pm

jumbojet wrote:
Acey559 wrote:
jumbojet wrote:
The reason why no other US legacy will match this (and most regional airlines) is because of the DL heritage and the DL culture. I truly believe that most other airlines for whatever reason are just not willing to go the extra mile. Way to go DL, congrats. This is what separates DL from the competition, its all around operational reliability AND there willingness to fess up and apologize when they know they F'd up.


AA has been phenomenal to me, even before I made Platinum. I've been on about 20 DL flights in the past year (small potatoes, I know) and was delayed on more than half and not a single flight was memorable with the exception of the sardine can 757 I was on from ATL-SEA a couple weeks ago. I'm not a DL hater by any means, but my experiences with AA have been exceptional and DL has been ho hum. There are two sides to every coin.


But the stats speak for themselves. Look at the on-time stats and the ML completion stats. DL is quite a bit ahead of AA, not only in that area but in many customer service departments that matter like lost baggage and customer complaints. Like you said, two sides to every coin but the DOT stats is hard data, something people can bite there teeth into.

Unrelated but does AA have the baggage tracker feature? Absolutely love being able to track my checked bags whereabouts on the Delta app as well as receiving updates via SMS messenger, from it being loaded on the plane (the right one hopefully) to it being taken off the plane and it arriving at the baggage carousel.


Sure, and I'm not disputing hard data, I'm just saying that a lot of this stuff is subjective. DL is ahead of AA in a lot of metrics, but I've had better experiences on AA and that's what matters to me individually.

As for the bag tracker, AA does have one as well. Admittedly though I haven't checked a bag on AA at all in the past year or more so I can't comment on how it works. Definitely seems like a useful tool, though.
In Dixie Land I'll take my stand to live and die in Dixie.
 
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klm617
Posts: 5103
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2015 8:57 pm

Re: DL shatters operational reliability

Tue Jan 10, 2017 11:04 pm

ikramerica wrote:
PI4EVER wrote:
I find fault with an apparent lack of consistency in whatever policy DL adheres to concerning missed connections via hubs, and how employees are trained to deal with it. I've been in this business for many years, and have a knowledge and understanding of operational issues that can disrupt the airline operation very easily. I found my patience was severely tested as a revenue passenger on an October trip w/DL that was compounded by a manner of indifference and rudeness when things went haywire.
...
At the end of the day DL, how many times is this scenario repeated when stations are mandated to operate to schedule and employees are prone to assume the customer is at fault or for whatever reason, will get home eventually.
I can deal with operational issues that I understand can occur. I do resent an indifferent and insolent attitude on behalf of employees dealing with irregular situations or customers being told standard jargon to just get rid of them.
No delays were a result of mechanical or weather related issues.

They pulled this garbage on my brother. We were on a flight from Nassau to ATL and then we were connecting to different fights.
The Nassau flight was very late leaving due to the complete laziness of the Nassau staff. Clear day, nice morning, just slow as molasses baggage handling.

We get to ATL in time for my bro to make his Austin connection but they closed the door early and told him tough luck, gotta be there 10 minutes before. They claimed our earlier flight was delayed by weather. Lie. No weather along the way.

They couldn't rebook him until the next morning. And were completely "oh well" about it.

The truth of what happened to you and him is that DLs real policy is to only hold flights that aren't oversold. If they are missing 4 people buy oversold by 5, they will release the plane. If they are waiting for 11 and only have 2 people on standby, the plane will wait for you. All the rest is lipservice.



Not only that the gate agent that closed our flight was no where to be found the next shift had already come on duty so I am guessing the previous gate agent wanted to high tail it out of their on time and could care less about the customer that had to sit there for 6 hours waiting for a flight that was not oversold and the kicker was we were on the ground if she had bothered to check the status of the missing passenger she would have seen we were already in the terminal the pilot was willing to take us as he hadn't boarded the plane but by then our seats were given away. Very bad customer service.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
global1
Topic Author
Posts: 518
Joined: Fri Dec 19, 2014 5:31 pm

Re: DL shatters operational reliability

Wed Jan 11, 2017 12:11 am

This thread is about operational reliability, not a soap box for war stories involving CSA's, etc.,

Those are a dime a dozen and it wouldn't be hard to troll up a slew involving any airline.

Facts please.
 
jfern022
Posts: 183
Joined: Sun Aug 21, 2016 9:24 pm

Re: DL shatters operational reliability

Wed Jan 11, 2017 12:34 am

global1 wrote:
This thread is about operational reliability, not a soap box for war stories involving CSA's, etc.,

Those are a dime a dozen and it wouldn't be hard to troll up a slew involving any airline.

Facts please.


Exactly!

Fact is, regardless of how one wants to perceive statistics, Delta runs a better operation compared to the other majors. For those on the soapbox about the one bad experience they had out of over 180,000,000 passengers they flew each year, look at the experience most have on either UA or AA.
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 14566
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

Re: DL shatters operational reliability

Wed Jan 11, 2017 12:40 am

global1 wrote:
This thread is about operational reliability, not a soap box for war stories involving CSA's, etc.,

Those are a dime a dozen and it wouldn't be hard to troll up a slew involving any airline.

Facts please.


I see the two issues as intertwined. As Delta has become almost maniacally obsessed with D0 - a statistic that is meaningless to passengers except insofar as it bears a passing relation to A14 - deplorable CSA attitudes have become more common.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
airzona11
Posts: 1773
Joined: Wed Dec 17, 2014 5:44 am

Re: DL shatters operational reliability

Wed Jan 11, 2017 12:56 am

I am confused after reading the above. Is the consensus DL isn't actually reliable?

Yes, fine, all of the US3 are reliable, but that does not take away from the impressive DL stats.

Comparing DL(or AA or UA or WN) to an airline like AS really doesn't make sense. AS is a very impressive operation no doubt, just on magnitudes of scale smaller and not serving anywhere close to the same markets.

What would be interesting to see is data and stats for traffic passenger flows where the airlines overlap, either nonstop or with connections. For example, LAX-SFO, CHI-NYC, NYC/BOS- FL, NYC-LAX/SFO, etc. So if you are passenger flying between these markets, here is how likely you are to be delayed on DL vs UA vs AA vs AS/VX vs B7 etc

If we compared that data that would give us some apples to apples insight.
 
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BobPatterson
Posts: 3416
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Re: DL shatters operational reliability

Wed Jan 11, 2017 9:50 am

ghifty wrote:
BobPatterson wrote:
Delta manages to cancel plenty of flights. They also sometimes prefer to have obscenely late flights rather than cancel them. Playing a numbers game.


Where's the data for AA/UA which would paint an actually comparable picture? Or is this the numbers game.

DL is saying they didn't cancel 86.3% of flights, nothing else.


You need to read the OP more carefully. It makes no claim regarding percentage of cancelled flights. It is the on-time percentage that was given.

And, no, what I posted was not a numbers game but facts derived from T-100 data. When I spent a couple of days extracting and compiling the data I was interested only in comparing Alaska and Delta regarding on-time performance. A bonus from that effort was the spread of ultra-late times that I didn't know existed. I plan to look again at the T-100 data later this year when it will finally include all the regional/subsidiary airlines. Until then I hope you will be satisfied with the FlightStats data shown below (I just became aware of FlightStats).

Source: http://www.flightstats.com/company/medi ... ards-data/

..............2016 On-time Performance..................................Data from FlightStats

......................................................................Comp......On-time....On-time......Ave. Dep.....Ave. Arrive
.....................................................Flights.......Factor......Depart........Arrive......Delay mins...Delay mins

1.....AS.....Alaska Airlines..............356,596.....98.90%.....88.91%.....87.00%..........50.2............46.6
2.....DL.....Delta Air Lines............1,898,970.....98.93%.....85.17%.....85.17%..........70.7............69.2
3.....WS....WestJet.......................228,249......98.52%.....83.78%.....82.73%..........45.7............46.4
4.....WN....Southwest Airlines.....1,324,588......98.61%.....80.70%.....81.89%..........48.8............50.0
5.....UA.....United Airlines...........1,657,947......97.75%.....81.56%.....81.83%..........68.7............67.6
6.....AA.....American Airlines.......2,314,888.....97.85%.....82.77%.....80.16%..........64.0............61.1
7.....F9......Frontier Airlines..............99,302.....98.80%.....78.67%.....77.44%..........73.0............69.6
8.....VX.....Virgin American..............70,569......98.79%.....78.85%.....77.33%..........57.7............56.3
9.....B6.....JetBlue Airways............341,397......98.49%.....76.09%.....76.33%..........62.9............63.6
10...AC.....Air Canada...................574,425......98.27%.....81.00%.....76.30%..........54.1............51.6

Completion factor is for all flights minus cancellations and diversions. Average time for delayed departure/arrival is for those flight that were officially late (15 minutes or more beyond scheduled departure).

As expected, Delta scored very well for flights completed on-time. Hawaiian Airlines is not included it this analysis by FlightStats because they are relegated to the regional airline category. Delta ranks third amongst all North American airlines for on-time performance.

What comes as something of a shock to me is that in North America, except for Frontier, Delta has the worst record in degree of lateness when late flights are analyzed. This record would still be terrible even if all Delta flights more than 6 hours late were eliminated.

I am not privy to FlightStats' methodology, but I am pretty sure that they did nothing to level the playing field by adjusting the data for difference between airlines for padding scheduled flight times. From my own research I am confident that Delta is the leader in schedule padding. When the data are adjusted to eliminate this bias, the performance level of all other airlines rises relative to that of Delta. The other airlines magically become less late and Delta's poor performance in this one area stands out all the more.

I admire Delta Air Lines as a reasonably well-managed business. But I deplore their continual hyping of low cancellation rates when, in fact, they are "cooking the books" by posting numerous flights to a different page in the "accounting ledger."
Facts are fragile things. Treat them with care. Sources are important. Alternative facts do not exist.
 
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CARST
Posts: 1556
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Re: DL shatters operational reliability

Wed Jan 11, 2017 10:16 am

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
These threads are so predictable.

1) Hate on DCI carriers
2) Hate on outsourced carriers/contractors/third party vendors
3) Hate on how DL would rather delay a flight 6+ hours than cancel
4) Hate on how DL pads their schedule
5) Hate on DL for screwing DTW & MSP
6) Hate on DL for flying old planes
7) Hate on DL for ordering Airbus
8) Hate on DL for ordering Boeing

/end thread.


Hate, hate, hate? Hate, hate, hate?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afIh3b71A5A
 
Bongodog1964
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Re: DL shatters operational reliability

Wed Jan 11, 2017 10:56 am

It is obvious that DL management have made it a top priority to minimise cancellations, the result being that they top the league in that respect. The big question however is whether that is the correct course of action, statistics show that some flights are being run so late that they might as well be ranked as cancellations, plus how much extra resource are they putting in to achieve this no 1 ranking ?
if they are doing it with the same level of resource as their competitors, just by being more efficient, and better aircraft reliability, hats off to DL. If however they are using more standby aircraft and standby crew, is it the right economic strategy ?
 
ken4556
Posts: 156
Joined: Sat Jun 12, 1999 5:28 am

Re: DL shatters operational reliability

Wed Jan 11, 2017 11:25 am

While Delta may send flights out that are many hours late rather than cancelling, I do not believe they do it for bragging rights. For example, with all the issues in FLL last weekend, Delta sent a bunch of late planes to FLL on Saturday evening. I have no idea what the load factors were, but even if they were empty, they got the planes and crews into position for the flights out on Sunday morning. When you cancel an evening flight out of a hub, you effectively cancel the flight out the next morning. This costs the airline money to reroute the people or even loose the revenue to not traveling or moving to another airline. I believe Delta realized this saves money by effecting less people.

In regards to padding the schedule, I have found flying in and out of hubs is never consistent (unless it is non-peak hours). I can travel on the same flight one week and be number 10 for take-off and travel on the same flight two weeks later and be number 2 for take-off. No airline can predict this perfectly for everyday of the week. Padding also allows for catch-up time when things happen, especially at airports that delays happens with a single cloud in the sky.

Lastly, wind can have an effect on times. I flew to Seattle from Atlanta and flight time was 5:25 going westbound. Coming back, we left a hour late, but arrived on-time with a eastbound flight time of 3:30. I know this can averages themselves out if the plane is flying the round trip, but again no airline can schedule in the wind variance on a daily basis, especially if the plan is taking a circle route over the course of days.

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