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TWA772LR
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UA's IAH-MUC - finding a better use for the used equipment

Thu Jan 12, 2017 6:26 am

Let's face it, it will most likely be cut by the end of the year. It didn't make sense from the get-go, essentially it is overshadowed by FRA.

UA would be better off serving another partner's hub, but which one?

Europe is covered directly on UA to AMS, LHR, and FRA to Europe, and only NRT for Asia.

I'm a strong believer that UA can kick KE out of IAH if they start ICN. Korea is a big manufacturer of heavy oil equipment, Hyundai actually built the Deepwater Horizon for one. IAH-India has been rumored for a long time, and a nonstop could steal the more high-yielding pax from the Terminal D airlines.

And if UA wants to get creative, they can launch IAH-ADD in cooperation with ET. I'm not sure why I listed that, but it would be interesting.

Or starting an international destination with the 763 that would be freed up? What's the top 10 longhaul cities from IAH?

Thoughts?
Last edited by SQ22 on Thu Jan 12, 2017 5:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: UA's IAH-MUC

Thu Jan 12, 2017 6:32 am

TWA772LR wrote:
I'm a strong believer that UA can kick KE out of IAH if they start ICN. Korea is a big manufacturer of heavy oil equipment, Hyundai actually built the Deepwater Horizon for one.

...probably not much chance of UA wresting the Korean business point of sale from KE though.


TWA772LR wrote:
IAH-India has been rumored for a long time, and a nonstop could steal the more high-yielding pax from the Terminal D airlines.

Doubt that's of sufficient incentive for UA to risk cannibalizing its own EWR-India services, the sole remaining nonstops to India by a USA carrier.


TWA772LR wrote:
And if UA wants to get creative, they can launch IAH-ADD in cooperation with ET. I'm not sure why I listed that

Me either, considering that they don't have anything that could operate the westbound nonstop (even a 77L likely couldn't do it with a compelling payload), so they'd just be doing the same thing that they already are doing now: competing with a 1stop.
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Re: UA's IAH-MUC

Thu Jan 12, 2017 6:59 am

Would a 789 work for ADD?
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Re: UA's IAH-MUC

Thu Jan 12, 2017 7:07 am

TWA772LR wrote:
Would a 789 work for ADD?


IAH-ADD is roughly 8400mi, so technically yes although I think it would have to be restricted.

Though the route does not make sense.
 
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Re: UA's IAH-MUC

Thu Jan 12, 2017 7:08 am

I doubt we'll see much international expansion from IAH as long as the economy is what it is. Also, with 10 772As going from international to domestic, there's probably a little less slack in the primarily TATL-bound 763s and 772s.

In terms of connecting Star hubs that aren't already connected, I'd love to see UA or SN start LAX/SFO-BRU. Not sure how much demand there is for that or when it may happen, though LAX-VIE is starting seasonally, so I guess anything is possible.
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Re: UA's IAH-MUC - finding a better use for the used equipment

Thu Jan 12, 2017 5:44 pm

Discussion about UA suspending the route can be found here:

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1348849
 
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Re: UA's IAH-MUC - finding a better use for the used equipment

Thu Jan 12, 2017 6:57 pm

TWA772LR wrote:

I'm a strong believer that UA can kick KE out of IAH if they start ICN. Korea is a big manufacturer of heavy oil equipment, Hyundai actually built the Deepwater Horizon for one.



And Samsung Heavy Industries (SHI) in Busan is building their next platform, Mad Dog II.

I think ICN would be a good move as the oil market picks back up.
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Re: UA's IAH-MUC - finding a better use for the used equipment

Thu Jan 12, 2017 7:08 pm

I think we have to be real here.

UA will not be starting IAH-ICN and they certainly wont be flying to ADD from anywhere.

Also, if they decide to can IAH-MUC for good, they probably wont re-invest the plane in IAH.

If IAH is going to get more love from UA, I don't think its going to be anything long haul right now. I do think there are some holes in Latin America they should look at. I would also like to see more domestic added from IAH.
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Re: UA's IAH-MUC - finding a better use for the used equipment

Thu Jan 12, 2017 7:28 pm

If they were to fly to another partner hub in Europe from IAH, would almost definitely be another A++ hub. Either BRU or ZRH, both of which may have a stronger local market than MUC.

BRU would offer connections to Africa not offered through FRA. There is a fair amount of Houston-Africa traffic, some of which is Oil-related, some isn't.

ZRH is probably a small O&D but likely what's there is high yielding and the only other nonstop service to ZRH west of the Mississippi is LAX/SFO (and seasonal LAS and SAN on Edelweiss). They could theoretically steal a lot of the flow to DL's seasonal ATL-ZRH flight that keeps it afloat.
 
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Re: UA's IAH-MUC - finding a better use for the used equipment

Thu Jan 12, 2017 8:09 pm

drdisque wrote:
If they were to fly to another partner hub in Europe from IAH, would almost definitely be another A++ hub. Either BRU or ZRH, both of which may have a stronger local market than MUC.

BRU would offer connections to Africa not offered through FRA. There is a fair amount of Houston-Africa traffic, some of which is Oil-related, some isn't.

ZRH is probably a small O&D but likely what's there is high yielding and the only other nonstop service to ZRH west of the Mississippi is LAX/SFO (and seasonal LAS and SAN on Edelweiss). They could theoretically steal a lot of the flow to DL's seasonal ATL-ZRH flight that keeps it afloat.

I'd love to see that happen, and you have a point with BRU, but with UA being as conservative as ever, I think we will probably see SN get on it if at all. Same with LX, which ZRH could happen as Switzerland is big on pharmaceuticals, and the Texas Medical Center is the 2nd or 3rd largest economic factor for the Houston area.
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Re: UA's IAH-MUC - finding a better use for the used equipment

Thu Jan 12, 2017 8:13 pm

TWA772LR wrote:
drdisque wrote:
If they were to fly to another partner hub in Europe from IAH, would almost definitely be another A++ hub. Either BRU or ZRH, both of which may have a stronger local market than MUC.

BRU would offer connections to Africa not offered through FRA. There is a fair amount of Houston-Africa traffic, some of which is Oil-related, some isn't.

ZRH is probably a small O&D but likely what's there is high yielding and the only other nonstop service to ZRH west of the Mississippi is LAX/SFO (and seasonal LAS and SAN on Edelweiss). They could theoretically steal a lot of the flow to DL's seasonal ATL-ZRH flight that keeps it afloat.

I'd love to see that happen, and you have a point with BRU, but with UA being as conservative as ever, I think we will probably see SN get on it if at all. Same with LX, which ZRH could happen as Switzerland is big on pharmaceuticals, and the Texas Medical Center is the 2nd or 3rd largest economic factor for the Houston area.


Doesn't change the fact that IAH-ZRH is only about 15 PDEW. IAH-BRU is slightly larger, but the SN connections to Africa make IAH-BRU make far more sense than IAH-ZRH.
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Re: UA's IAH-MUC - finding a better use for the used equipment

Fri Jan 13, 2017 12:41 am

No offense, but if UA doesn't fly to ICN from EWR and ORD, IAH is not on the radar.
 
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Re: UA's IAH-MUC - finding a better use for the used equipment

Fri Jan 13, 2017 12:42 am

Also, what oil market is in Korea?
 
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Re: UA's IAH-MUC - finding a better use for the used equipment

Fri Jan 13, 2017 12:55 am

globalcabotage wrote:
No offense, but if UA doesn't fly to ICN from EWR and ORD, IAH is not on the radar.


This.

ICN is one market that UA has been very passive in and largely out of the airline's purview (at least compared to other major cities in the region), even despite the fact that it is a Star hub. Can't blame them if they seize opportunities in more lucrative markets and treat ICN as an afterthought.

I don't really expect this to change given UA's track record in the Korea market. EWR-ICN and ORD-ICN are not small markets-- but perhaps just not meant for UA to be in.

Edit: Grammar
Last edited by hoons90 on Fri Jan 13, 2017 1:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: UA's IAH-MUC - finding a better use for the used equipment

Fri Jan 13, 2017 1:04 am

UA could add an ORD-ICN around 11am (or earlier if they want GRU connections) and return to ORD around 3pm. Great connections to the east coast (and GRU). Would compliment OZ and give KE competition. UA just doesn't do this. If AA had 80% share like at DFW, this would happen. But different dynamics, bigger market, etc.
 
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Re: UA's IAH-MUC - finding a better use for the used equipment

Fri Jan 13, 2017 1:24 am

globalcabotage wrote:
Also, what oil market is in Korea?


Samsung Heavy Industries, for one, and their Americas Headquarters is in Houston. There is a reason the Korean Consulate General is in Houston and not Dallas (even though Dallas has more Koreans than Houston)-business ties-mainly shipping, offshore, energy and medical.

http://www.samsungshi.com/eng/company/g ... rseas.aspx
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Re: UA's IAH-MUC - finding a better use for the used equipment

Fri Jan 13, 2017 1:30 am

Not going into a DFW-IAH thread, but KE and AA are holding their own at DFW and IAH is said to be KE's weakest route. Of course, IAH is like MIA and BOS and can handle multiple 380 service to any runway over 12,000 feet.
 
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Re: UA's IAH-MUC - finding a better use for the used equipment

Fri Jan 13, 2017 1:46 am

globalcabotage wrote:
Not going into a DFW-IAH thread, but KE and AA are holding their own at DFW and IAH is said to be KE's weakest route. Of course, IAH is like MIA and BOS and can handle multiple 380 service to any runway over 12,000 feet.


I do not see where anyone said that, and I would hope your feckless comments are not directed at my response, since I simply answered your posited question; never stating UA should start the route also.

As someone who flies the KE flight in biz from Houston to Seoul twice a year, I would hate to see it go. YMMV.
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Re: UA's IAH-MUC - finding a better use for the used equipment

Fri Jan 13, 2017 2:34 am

FlyingSicilian wrote:
globalcabotage wrote:
Also, what oil market is in Korea?


Samsung Heavy Industries, for one, and their Americas Headquarters is in Houston. There is a reason the Korean Consulate General is in Houston and not Dallas (even though Dallas has more Koreans than Houston)-business ties-mainly shipping, offshore, energy and medical.

http://www.samsungshi.com/eng/company/g ... rseas.aspx


There is a Korean Consulate in Dallas. Also DFW-ICN is well over twice the size of IAH-ICN in O&D:

http://usa-dallas.mofa.go.kr/english/am ... /index.jsp
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Re: UA's IAH-MUC - finding a better use for the used equipment

Fri Jan 13, 2017 4:20 am

LAXdude1023 wrote:
FlyingSicilian wrote:
globalcabotage wrote:
Also, what oil market is in Korea?


Samsung Heavy Industries, for one, and their Americas Headquarters is in Houston. There is a reason the Korean Consulate General is in Houston and not Dallas (even though Dallas has more Koreans than Houston)-business ties-mainly shipping, offshore, energy and medical.

http://www.samsungshi.com/eng/company/g ... rseas.aspx


There is a Korean Consulate in Dallas. Also DFW-ICN is well over twice the size of IAH-ICN in O&D:

http://usa-dallas.mofa.go.kr/english/am ... /index.jsp


It is not a consulate, it is a consul office as a branch of the Consulate General in Houston actually, and has not been open that long. As noted, there are more Koreans in Dallas than Houston. Everything I posted was, and is correct. Not sure why everyone is missing the details today...
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Re: UA's IAH-MUC - finding a better use for the used equipment

Fri Jan 13, 2017 2:20 pm

FlyingSicilian wrote:
LAXdude1023 wrote:
FlyingSicilian wrote:

Samsung Heavy Industries, for one, and their Americas Headquarters is in Houston. There is a reason the Korean Consulate General is in Houston and not Dallas (even though Dallas has more Koreans than Houston)-business ties-mainly shipping, offshore, energy and medical.

http://www.samsungshi.com/eng/company/g ... rseas.aspx


There is a Korean Consulate in Dallas. Also DFW-ICN is well over twice the size of IAH-ICN in O&D:

http://usa-dallas.mofa.go.kr/english/am ... /index.jsp


It is not a consulate, it is a consul office as a branch of the Consulate General in Houston actually, and has not been open that long. As noted, there are more Koreans in Dallas than Houston. Everything I posted was, and is correct. Not sure why everyone is missing the details today...


You are incorrect sir. It is a consulate. See the page below from the Embassy of Korea in the US:

http://usa.mofa.go.kr/english/am/usa/vi ... /index.jsp

Its jurisdiction is the DFW Area. Its not under the Houston Consulate which handles the rest of Texas.
Last edited by LAXdude1023 on Fri Jan 13, 2017 2:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: UA's IAH-MUC - finding a better use for the used equipment

Fri Jan 13, 2017 2:44 pm

Maybe the post can stop derailing as a IAH vs DFW thread. Cool? Not blaming any single poster so don't anyone think this is directed towards them.

Back to the topic, I agree that UA isn't even remotely thinking of IAH-ICN. That's ridiculous when EWR and ORD don't even have a flight. IAH-ICN is a marginal market, and quite frankly, I'm just happy to see KE holding on.

The IAH market has become a lot smaller priority in the UA network than it was with CO. It is unfortunate, but it's true. It serves its purpose, and definitely has an important place. But DEN is a much better domestic connection hub for east to west coast and v.v., and SFO, EWR, ORD, IAD, and LAX are larger markets internationally to Europe/Asia and beyond. I agree with LAXDUDE1023 that the greatest potential right now for IAH is connecting the dots domestically and perhaps some organic Latin growth. I very highly doubt we will see UA add any European or Asian routes from IAH in the next few years.
 
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Re: UA's IAH-MUC - finding a better use for the used equipment

Fri Jan 13, 2017 3:29 pm

LAXdude1023 wrote:
FlyingSicilian wrote:
LAXdude1023 wrote:

There is a Korean Consulate in Dallas. Also DFW-ICN is well over twice the size of IAH-ICN in O&D:

http://usa-dallas.mofa.go.kr/english/am ... /index.jsp


It is not a consulate, it is a consul office as a branch of the Consulate General in Houston actually, and has not been open that long. As noted, there are more Koreans in Dallas than Houston. Everything I posted was, and is correct. Not sure why everyone is missing the details today...


You are incorrect sir. It is a consulate. See the page below from the Embassy of Korea in the US:

http://usa.mofa.go.kr/english/am/usa/vi ... /index.jsp

Its jurisdiction is the DFW Area. Its not under the Houston Consulate which handles the rest of Texas.


It is not a consulate, you are in correct. A consulate is a specific, treaty identified entity. It is similar to what the US regards as a consular agent (like in Maracaibo or Palarmo, for example). You check the department of state's log of protected officials and locations by DSS and see that also.

That is why it says "Consular Office" on its webpage. Yes it offers many services, and I am sure one day it will be upgraded, but these things have proper treaty definitions of which that is office is not a full consulate under treaty. Were it a full consulate or consulate general it would service states like Oklahoma, which still must go to Houston CG as part of their AOR.

I think the agency in Dallas is a good thing, for many, many years Koreans and some businesses complained about having to go to Houston and they lobbied Korea for something, which initially was helped by the Korean Chamber in Dallas, then getting the Agency. That said nothing was factually incorrect in my initial posting. That does not mean I think UA will or should start Seoul...not happening. Of all the routes the kids and fanboys always throw out on these types of threads, BRU is the only one that makes much sense. As energy recovers more, which it is (not just price, but hiring which is now happening) IAH will stabilize. (BRU has targeted IAH too for several years in their marketing and at ROUTES events, etc.) Outside of BRU few other foreign markets make sense, other than MAR, and that is frozen out, with CITGO flying the route at least thrice weekly with corporate and charters and the rest via MIA and PTY.
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Re: UA's IAH-MUC - finding a better use for the used equipment

Fri Jan 13, 2017 5:08 pm

FlyingSicilian wrote:

BRU is the only one that makes much sense. As energy recovers more, which it is (not just price, but hiring which is now happening) IAH will stabilize. (BRU has targeted IAH too for several years in their marketing and at ROUTES events, etc.) Outside of BRU few other foreign markets make sense, other than MAR, and that is frozen out, with CITGO flying the route at least thrice weekly with corporate and charters and the rest via MIA and PTY.


I think realistically we have to come to grips the fact that the odds of UA launching any long haul route from IAH right now are pretty low. That said I would also say that I believe IAH has stabilized. I don't see any more cuts from IAH now that oil is more stable. Pbb is correct. If we do see any international adds, I would expect them to come from Latin America. Most Latin American adds would make sense from IAH except Bolivia which would make more sense from IAD (40% of the Bolivian population in the US lives in DC and its the largest O&D market to Bolivia).

I agree IAH-MAR would be great, but its not happening. I do think UA should give IAH-FRS, IAH-GYE or IAH-CLO/MDE another shot. I also think IAH-Mexico could be beefed up a bit more too. Markets like ZCL would be nice adds.
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Re: UA's IAH-MUC - finding a better use for the used equipment

Fri Jan 13, 2017 5:30 pm

LAXdude1023 wrote:
FlyingSicilian wrote:

BRU is the only one that makes much sense. As energy recovers more, which it is (not just price, but hiring which is now happening) IAH will stabilize. (BRU has targeted IAH too for several years in their marketing and at ROUTES events, etc.) Outside of BRU few other foreign markets make sense, other than MAR, and that is frozen out, with CITGO flying the route at least thrice weekly with corporate and charters and the rest via MIA and PTY.


I think realistically we have to come to grips the fact that the odds of UA launching any long haul route from IAH right now are pretty low. That said I would also say that I believe IAH has stabilized. I don't see any more cuts from IAH now that oil is more stable. Pbb is correct. If we do see any international adds, I would expect them to come from Latin America. Most Latin American adds would make sense from IAH except Bolivia which would make more sense from IAD (40% of the Bolivian population in the US lives in DC and its the largest O&D market to Bolivia).

I agree IAH-MAR would be great, but its not happening. I do think UA should give IAH-FRS, IAH-GYE or IAH-CLO/MDE another shot. I also think IAH-Mexico could be beefed up a bit more too. Markets like ZCL would be nice adds.


UA has certainly retreated a bit in Mexico. At one point IAH had service to over 30 airfields in the country. Between AA's adds and the negative perception of Mexico in the US media due to violence several years ago demand dropped a bit. But I think UA was a bit quick to chop some of them. I have friends at the airline that certainly enjoyed the ability to take the flights!
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Re: UA's IAH-MUC - finding a better use for the used equipment

Fri Jan 13, 2017 6:51 pm

I think we need to realize one thing. As fun as it is to dream, IAH is not underserved internationally (especially considering all the foreign carriers). IAH has all it really needs from a long haul basis.

Having gone through UA's last presentation, its clear what UA envisions IAH to be: their gateway to Latin America. Of course IAH has a strong domestic network and connections to Europe and Tokyo, but that is not IAH's bread and butter as for as UA is concerned. If you work at route planning at UA, you have to ask yourself "what does IAH bring that no other hub does?". The answer to that is simple: Latin America. It has the smallest domestic O&D of any of UA's hubs so its not going to contribute as much as ORD and DEN will there. Its geographically located poorly for connections to Asia and Europe, though it does make up with a pretty large and high fare O&D to those regions. But still yet, will choose IAH over ORD or EWR for new destinations in Europe?
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Re: UA's IAH-MUC - finding a better use for the used equipment

Fri Jan 13, 2017 7:20 pm

LAXdude1023 wrote:
I think we need to realize one thing. As fun as it is to dream, IAH is not underserved internationally (especially considering all the foreign carriers). IAH has all it really needs from a long haul basis.

Having gone through UA's last presentation, its clear what UA envisions IAH to be: their gateway to Latin America. Of course IAH has a strong domestic network and connections to Europe and Tokyo, but that is not IAH's bread and butter as for as UA is concerned. If you work at route planning at UA, you have to ask yourself "what does IAH bring that no other hub does?". The answer to that is simple: Latin America. It has the smallest domestic O&D of any of UA's hubs so its not going to contribute as much as ORD and DEN will there. Its geographically located poorly for connections to Asia and Europe, though it does make up with a pretty large and high fare O&D to those regions. But still yet, will choose IAH over ORD or EWR for new destinations in Europe?

This pretty much nails it, Although I admit I have been writing down some of my dreams of UA routes out of IAH. IAH has pretty much all it needs from Asia and Europe. It is Latin America that I believe will see more growth.
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Re: UA's IAH-MUC - finding a better use for the used equipment

Fri Jan 13, 2017 9:27 pm

TWA772LR wrote:
Let's face it, it will most likely be cut by the end of the year. It didn't make sense from the get-go, essentially it is overshadowed by FRA.

UA would be better off serving another partner's hub, but which one?

Europe is covered directly on UA to AMS, LHR, and FRA to Europe, and only NRT for Asia.

I'm a strong believer that UA can kick KE out of IAH if they start ICN. Korea is a big manufacturer of heavy oil equipment, Hyundai actually built the Deepwater Horizon for one. IAH-India has been rumored for a long time, and a nonstop could steal the more high-yielding pax from the Terminal D airlines.

And if UA wants to get creative, they can launch IAH-ADD in cooperation with ET. I'm not sure why I listed that, but it would be interesting.

Or starting an international destination with the 763 that would be freed up? What's the top 10 longhaul cities from IAH?

Thoughts?


UA still won't catch other *A high yield in spite of Polaris. New UA clubs look great but the shelves are bare and they are about the most feckless branding known to mankind. IAH has a great Amex Plat lounge, the second these come to DEN, LAX and EWR, UA paid club memberships are done. UA staff loiters about in there in bunches of 2 and 3, Amex staff spends free moments on discussing improvement ideas and rearranging furniture to make the layout more customer friendly. Night and day. If you're a business person you notice and you like what you see, on the Amex side.

The onboard bloody mary and the mimosas add a cute touch, new ice cream sundae bowls are nice, but too many situations still where they are nonchalant about major delays or mechanical issues. 20 hour delays and a $138 cockroach room at the Holiday Inn doesn't sit well with people travelling on business. They need more of the SQ or LH Group mindset to make inroads there.

ADD or ICN won't happen without closer collaboration with ET and OZ. Not sure about the root cause of UA not playing well with ET, in theory there shouldn't be too much overlap. NH won't let OZ get closer to UA it seems. I can't even book ET + UA on the same itinerary most of the time.

For IAH, LatAm makes the most amount of sense, UA does ok there and could plug some holes, but again that also requires closer relations to AV now that CM keeps drifting away. Perhaps that can happen when and if AV accepts that UA investment proposal over DL's offer and if Brazil recovers back to what it was. Otherwise it won't warrant flatbeds, not that LatAm flying is cheap to begin with.

For now, redeployment of that equipment at another UA hub is way more likely.
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Re: UA's IAH-MUC - finding a better use for the used equipment

Sat Jan 14, 2017 1:17 am

[quote="ua900
And if UA wants to get creative, they can launch IAH-ADD in cooperation with ET. I'm not sure why I listed that, but it would be interesting.

For ADD at 7656 ft above sea level the 789 is going to give up,~25t of TOW. Clearly IAH at ~ 7000nm is a non starter.
 
Freshside3
Posts: 1590
Joined: Fri Nov 30, 2012 2:11 am

Re: UA's IAH-MUC - finding a better use for the used equipment

Sat Jan 14, 2017 2:32 am

sunrisevalley wrote:
[quote="ua900
And if UA wants to get creative, they can launch IAH-ADD in cooperation with ET. I'm not sure why I listed that, but it would be interesting.

For ADD at 7656 ft above sea level the 789 is going to give up,~25t of TOW. Clearly IAH at ~ 7000nm is a non starter.

Yes, something to ADD would certainly help. But it's a tricky one to figure out, and not sure if IAH is the right gateway city. And presumably with a stop in Europe in there.....but which stop??

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