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BoeingGuy
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Re: Delta ending Taipei service

Fri Jan 13, 2017 9:23 pm

No-one has mentioned the possibility of CI starting SEA-TPE as a replacement for DL NRT-TPE. My guess is that CI sill start SEA with an A350 and DL will code-share on the flight. Thus, there is no need for DL to fly SEA-TPE on their own metal (or composites as the case may be).
 
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LAXintl
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Re: Delta ending Taipei service

Fri Jan 13, 2017 11:20 pm

Keep in mind the ability to leverage MU and its PVG gateway properly is really not possible until China-USA achieve open skies.
No JV ATI will be possible without it.

Also another big downside at PVG is fact Shanghai is a two airport town, with Hongqiao Airport(SHA) having the bigger slice of Chinese domestic connections. PVGs domestic destination count and frequency is not as appealing as what cross town SHA offers.
Also Shanghai's rather southern location is hardly the ideal geographic place to access much of China from especially when coming from the US with many cities necessitate long backtracks leading to less competitive itineraries versus other hubs such as PEK or ICN.

DL really needs a North Asia gateway. Outside of Japan that leaves ICN as the sole strong option.
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DDR
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Re: Delta ending Taipei service

Fri Jan 13, 2017 11:32 pm

Isn't DALPA arguing against more JV? I though I read somewhere that the pilots were starting to push back and were demanding more flights be flown on DL metal.
 
B737900ER
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Re: Delta ending Taipei service

Fri Jan 13, 2017 11:33 pm

The biggest issue with using PVG as a hub is China Eastern. MU is the worst of the major Chinese airlines. Customer service and reliability is awful. If you've ever traveled with them regularly for domestic Chinese or intra Asian flights, you know the experience is terrible. If DL really wants to partner with them extensively then somebody is going to have to overhaul the operations and culture of MU. If not, anyone with any kind of sense will book away from DL when flying to Asia.
 
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klm617
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Re: Delta ending Taipei service

Sat Jan 14, 2017 12:15 am

jbs2886 wrote:
klm617 wrote:
Sightseer wrote:

Right, of course. And that's all we have to go off of, really.



If SEA-SIN/BKK/MNL ever happen, they would likely follow that pattern. HKG and TPE may be too short of flights from SEA to make that worthwhile. BR makes it work on SEA-TPE, but I think that may be a reason why DL elects not to do it; departing at a different time of day will enable them to compete less directly and will better distinguish DL's offering in the market.


You say that as if you know for a fact that NRT-TPE is a fundamentally solid market for an airline in DL's position, when I doubt that you actually do.

On that note, is there any way to see what percentage of DL's passengers on the route were local? It came up in the LAX-PEK route proceeding that DL carries 69% local traffic on NRT-PVG, so I'm sure that information exists somewhere for NRT-TPE.



I never said it was fundamentally solid but you have to agree that if Delta were able to move all their operations to HND as they requested Delta would still be in the Tokyo-Taipei market. I am not doubting one bit that Delta is not making the yields it wants on this flight but I am sure there are many other routes in the network that are performing at the same level but those aren't being cut because Delta doesn't have a point to prove or an ax to grind in those markets. This airline is run on ego and it shows.


If it were an unprofitable route from Detroit they would definitely cut it!! :lol: :lol:



You better believe they would in a heartbeat. If it doesn't make big bucks in the Detroit market it doesn't survive.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
EddieDude
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Re: Delta ending Taipei service

Sat Jan 14, 2017 12:45 am

klm617 wrote:
This is just more evidence of Delta stomping their feet when they don't get their way. If they had been able to move all their operations to HND like they wanted to TPE would still be served by Delta but because they weren't allowed to do that they will show the powers that be by eliminating service to certain cities that are only connected through NRT.

I honestly do not believe that the rationale behind the cancellation is to stomp the feet or to show anything to "powers that be" (who are they btw? the other alliances? Japanese aviation authorities? a sort of god?). The rationale must certainly be a legitimate business interest to minimize any risk of loss or underperformance, and to ultimately satisfy the duty DL has to its shareholders to make profits for them.
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b6sea
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Re: Delta ending Taipei service

Sat Jan 14, 2017 1:52 am

mpdpilot wrote:
Sightseer wrote:
That may well be the case; the SEA FIS is a zoo at peak times. However, if I'm not mistaken - and I very well could be mistaken - the busiest time of day is in the early afternoon, while a DL TPE flight would likely arrive in the morning or late afternoon/early evening. On the flip side, it would almost certainly depart for TPE in the early afternoon, when widebody gates are in short supply.


Yes I agree, I think Delta could make the flight work if they wanted to, but their words not mine.

I also think Delta could make a very late night departure to TPE/HKG/SIN/BKK/MNL with an early morning arrival back in SEA work. Aircraft utilization wouldn't be ideal but the timings would work better for business travelers and connections.


I agree with this as well. It's not lack of space at SEA that's causing DL to hold off on TPE. They could definitely launch it if that was something they were interested in. Perhaps it would be at sub-optimal times, but I'm sure they could work around that.

My guess is more that they expect CI to launch SEA-TPE sooner or later or that they're using further international expansion at SEA to strong-arm the Port of Seattle into further expansion plans on an expedited schedule without having to put in their own cash. And if it's the latter, I would like to personally tell Delta good luck with that, but it won't work.
 
BestWestern
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Re: Delta ending Taipei service

Sat Jan 14, 2017 2:06 am

B737900ER wrote:
The biggest issue with using PVG as a hub is China Eastern. MU is the worst of the major Chinese airlines. Customer service and reliability is awful. If you've ever traveled with them regularly for domestic Chinese or intra Asian flights, you know the experience is terrible. If DL really wants to partner with them extensively then somebody is going to have to overhaul the operations and culture of MU. If not, anyone with any kind of sense will book away from DL when flying to Asia.


Nobody in their right mind would choose to connect in Shanghai anyway. 100% agree on how poor MU is - an sub standard airline.
Greetings from Hong Kong.... a subsidiary of China Inc.
 
incitatus
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Re: Delta ending Taipei service

Sat Jan 14, 2017 2:34 am

I was waiting for the posting on a conspiracy theory: The Chinese government is forcing DL to leave Taiwan trading it for more attractive cooperation terms with its Sky Team partners China Eastern and China Southern. :)

Seriously, DL is going real slow about dismantling connectivity at NRT. Death by a million pin prickings! Kill it please!
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N717TW
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Re: Delta ending Taipei service

Sat Jan 14, 2017 3:39 am

incitatus wrote:
I was waiting for the posting on a conspiracy theory: The Chinese government is forcing DL to leave Taiwan trading it for more attractive cooperation terms with its Sky Team partners China Eastern and China Southern. :)

Seriously, DL is going real slow about dismantling connectivity at NRT. Death by a million pin prickings! Kill it please!


It seems painful to be sure. I wish they would just announce a JV and move to ICN and get over it. IN DL's defense, TYO is still a vitally important market and NRT remains the key airport (only 6 US cities are connected to HND whereas 17 are connected to NRT). Its as if AA were to abandon London service pre-Bermuda II just because only certain cities could route to LHR. DL seems to be projecting confidence they will get HND slots. Not sure why they have that confidence or if its just bluster.

I suspect that fifth freedom rights aren't worth much anymore but wonder if they hold onto one just to preserve their rights? KE essentially did that by moving their LAX-NRT-ICN route to HNL-NRT-ICN to protect their stop-over rights in JP. I know DL (from NW) has virtually unlimited 5th freedom rights but am not sure how much they must use before it goes away. My suspicion/educated guess is that they can a single PDX-NRT-ICN or SEA-NRT-MNL route and keep the full rights active. I also suspect that DL will keep the NRT beach markets going as long as they are profitable. And while MNL isn't a traditional beach market, the TYO/NGO-MNL routes had some beach-market qualities for years, so maybe that's the route they keep to preserve the rights? maybe.

It should be worth nothing that the Japanese aviation authorities have wanted to cut back on NW's 5th freedom rights for years. I remember an argument between a White Office and DOT official out my office door about it as far back as '97. SO DL cutting back isn't going to make many peeps in Japan, outside of DL employees and the few DL frequent flyers based in TYO, upset.
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: Delta ending Taipei service

Sat Jan 14, 2017 3:43 am

commavia wrote:
I don't necessarily disagree, but I'll just add that - as you likely already know - money, and profit, aren't necessarily always the ultimate goal in all cultures around the world they may be in the C-suite in ATL.

Perhaps, though to clarify: that'd be more of a corporate culture than a societal one, as UA/OZ don't seem to have such problems.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
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aemoreira1981
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Re: Delta ending Taipei service

Sat Jan 14, 2017 3:48 am

raylee67 wrote:
Given the intent to dismantle the NRT hub, it's not a surprise that TPE-NRT is dropped. What is a surprise is that it is not replaced by daily SEA-TPE. If BR can sustain double daily 77W SEA-TPE, one would think the route would be a no brainer for DL, given it can provide connection on both ends (i.e. code sharing with CI at TPE for onward travel to Southeast Asia). Is it because DL doesn't have sufficient aircraft? The route can be served with A330-200/-300 or 772ER/LR. Starting with A332 would be a safer bet but apparently DL did not even go for that.


With [twoid]DL[/twoid] trying to make Shanghai work as an Asia-Pacific hub, and Delta having a tiny stake in [twoid]MU[/twoid] (agreeing that the Narita hub's days are likely numbered and its closing is imminent), how would that affect codesharing with [twoid]CI[/twoid] as opposed to codesharing with [twoid]MU[/twoid] via Shanghai?
 
hayzel777
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Re: Delta ending Taipei service

Sat Jan 14, 2017 4:19 am

BoeingGuy wrote:
No-one has mentioned the possibility of CI starting SEA-TPE as a replacement for DL NRT-TPE. My guess is that CI sill start SEA with an A350 and DL will code-share on the flight. Thus, there is no need for DL to fly SEA-TPE on their own metal (or composites as the case may be).

I don't see them adding SEA-TPE after BR just upped it to 10 a week and 14 a week sometime this year. And CI has continuously mentioned adding SEA but I don't see them adding any new routes while they deal with their current labor issues.
 
StuckInCA
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Re: Delta ending Taipei service

Sat Jan 14, 2017 4:38 am

stratacruiser wrote:
I would expect the most reliable source of high-yield traffic between the US and Taiwan is tech-industry related. UA is better positioned to capture this with their SFO-TPE non-stop, which has the benefit of Silicon Valley O&D, plus arguably better connections to other major US tech centers.


Yet Eva Air makes it work 10x weekly from SEA.
 
sq452
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Re: Delta ending Taipei service

Sat Jan 14, 2017 4:38 am

NRT is being drawn down and that doesn't bode well for the intra-Asian flights on DL.

I have it on high authority that Delta won't drop SIN from its network entirely but, expect the A350 to launch SEA-SIN nonstop once they are in the fleet.

UA has the present advantage over DL on SIN-US flights as they offer 1-stop service to a slew of destinations via SFO; it's inevitable that DL will need to offer one-stop service to compete more evenly. Plus, their new Delta One suites on the A350's will be miles ahead of what UA has on the 787.

I'll definitely miss the cheap fares from NRT-SIN on DL; they had some great pricing on that route and the refurbished 767's were great to fly as the hard product was light years ahead of the 777 or A330 they used to run on the route.
SIN > CVG > BOS
 
hayzel777
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Re: Delta ending Taipei service

Sat Jan 14, 2017 4:43 am

StuckInCA wrote:
stratacruiser wrote:
I would expect the most reliable source of high-yield traffic between the US and Taiwan is tech-industry related. UA is better positioned to capture this with their SFO-TPE non-stop, which has the benefit of Silicon Valley O&D, plus arguably better connections to other major US tech centers.


Yet Eva Air makes it work 10x weekly from SEA.

BR loads are low 80s during peak season. The yields on the route are actually not that good(still making a profit though) compared to other US routes.
 
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TheLion
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Re: Delta ending Taipei service

Sat Jan 14, 2017 10:37 am

Could anyone explain what was so political about this subject that it caused posters to be banned?
 
MRYapproach
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Re: Delta ending Taipei service

Sat Jan 14, 2017 4:13 pm

jfk777 wrote:
Taipei have seen a graveyard before, Singapore Air gave up its LAX to TPE over 10 years ago. TPE has also doubled it home grown airlines with China Airlines being upstaged by EVA Air. EVA recently has been very expansionary with its 777-300ER fleet flying to every major North American and European city, especially Star alliance hubs.


i just got home last night from another perfect SFO-TPE roundtrip on EVA. Granted NRT-TPE was not wholly dependent on North American traffic, but let's be real. US carriers are just not viable to Asia. Maybe if you have a frequent flyer angle or corporate requirement it makes sense.

Between EVA's perfect flight times and excellent Elite cabin product, and CI's new 777 interiors, it's no contest. Oh yeah, they're cheaper too.

OK, OK, I was a little jealous last night when we taxi'd out and passed the UA 744 bird. Maybe I can make run my next trip through Vancouver to ride on EVA's last 747s.
 
commavia
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Re: Delta ending Taipei service

Sat Jan 14, 2017 5:21 pm

On a related note, it continues to surprise me that Delta maintains two Sky Clubs at NRT - that would seem like an opportunity to reduce the station's overhead costs. I guess Delta feels that, even with its NRT schedule way down from its peak, one club wouldn't be sufficient to handle the afternoon rush?
 
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Rajahdhani
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Re: Delta ending Taipei service

Sat Jan 14, 2017 6:02 pm

commavia wrote:
intotheair wrote:
I'm sure others will have more details than I do, but I don't think it wasn't a lack of trying on DL's end. I think DL pushed equally hard for a JV with KE, but KE just wasn't really all that interested until its recent financial woes.


Well that's certainly how we've heard Delta (and Delta fans here) tell/imply it. But it takes two to tango. It may well be true that Korean has been unable or unwilling to conform to Delta's vision of a successful transpacific ATI/JV. But then, I'm sure Korean could say the same thing about Delta being unable or unwilling to conform to Korean's vision of a successful transpacific ATI/JV. And that underscores what may well be - and likely is - the issue: they have two different visions of a successful transpacific ATI/JV. In the end, which airline is "right" or "wrong" (if either fully is) doesn't matter - regardless of the reason it hasn't happened, the bottom line is still that Delta needs it to happen.


I would argue that this is broadly correct. It can be paralleled in course, with other similar interactions between some other "Trans-Pacific Partnerships" as well, notably two.

I believe it stems from, exactly as you have said - each carrier's definition of a successful transpacific ATI/JV. Consider another 2, of the "Asian Tigers" - Hong Kong (and CX) and Singapore (SQ). These examples are not exact comparisons (both are city-states, neither share a single Asiana-like competitor at the same hub) - but close and consider how those 'home' carriers are broadly seen within the context of their North American partners - with SQ being accused of 'not playing fairly with UA', and CX 'not always happy with AA'. These rumors, though - only hide a fact - that in both cases, CX and SQ (until recent brand updates at AA, and rolling out at UA) offered superior services on the Trans-Pacific route. Even today, their pricing reflects that, and they enjoy a healthy customer base to boot. I can see them thus determining that they should be entitled to high shares of the transaction, and that is likely the opposite of what their U.S. partners wish, and see in their other JV/ATI agreements.

Backing to the main topic, I am actually happy to see DL end Taipei, if it means that DL is doing better elsewhere. Their recent financial performance is indicative of proper management, and I trust in their ability to properly allocate their resources. To be honest, this might place pressure on DL to perhaps consider serving the route directly from one of their U.S. hubs. Moreover, this can allow CI to better cater to the DL's base on the U.S. end.
 
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Rajahdhani
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Re: Delta ending Taipei service

Sat Jan 14, 2017 6:07 pm

Can someone explain the frequent flier and/or codeshare benefits between CI and DL? Maybe a partnership would be a great deal for DL (in the form of a JV/ATI down the road, if allowed) or a ramping-up of CI's services to the U.S. As is, DL's West Coast presence is mountainous - and I am sure that it plays a part. If they were to get closer, what steps would be next?
 
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Rajahdhani
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Re: Delta ending Taipei service

Sat Jan 14, 2017 6:12 pm

TheLion wrote:
Could anyone explain what was so political about this subject that it caused posters to be banned?



Can I 2nd this? My thought was on the issue of "One China", and I bow to the fact that it is rather contentious at the moment. For that reason, I have exercised caution in what I said above (and even discussed HK as well). That said, it is a bit like walking through a mine-field, blindfolded. I understand being cautious - but can someone clarify what we should be looking out for, in particular?
 
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LAXintl
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Re: Delta ending Taipei service

Sat Jan 14, 2017 7:29 pm

Rajahdhani wrote:
I believe it stems from, exactly as you have said - each carrier's definition of a successful transpacific ATI/JV. Consider another 2, of the "Asian Tigers" - Hong Kong (and CX) and Singapore (SQ). These examples are not exact comparisons (both are city-states, neither share a single Asiana-like competitor at the same hub) - but close and consider how those 'home' carriers are broadly seen within the context of their North American partners - with SQ being accused of 'not playing fairly with UA', and CX 'not always happy with AA'. These rumors, though - only hide a fact - that in both cases, CX and SQ (until recent brand updates at AA, and rolling out at UA) offered superior services on the Trans-Pacific route. Even today, their pricing reflects that, and they enjoy a healthy customer base to boot. I can see them thus determining that they should be entitled to high shares of the transaction, and that is likely the opposite of what their U.S. partners wish, and see in their other JV/ATI agreements.


I'm not sure what point you are making.

As far as CX, they cant have have an ATI JV even if they wanted it. Hong Kong does not have open-skies with the U.S.

Rajahdhani wrote:
Can someone explain the frequent flier and/or codeshare benefits between CI and DL? Maybe a partnership would be a great deal for DL (in the form of a JV/ATI down the road, if allowed) or a ramping-up of CI's services to the U.S. As is, DL's West Coast presence is mountainous - and I am sure that it plays a part. If they were to get closer, what steps would be next?


CI is pretty far down SkyMiles ladder with reduced earnings.

More details on DL website
http://www.delta.com/content/www/en_US/ ... lines.html
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
N212R
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Re: Delta ending Taipei service

Sat Jan 14, 2017 10:22 pm

Rajahdhani wrote:
Can I 2nd this? My thought was on the issue of "One China", and I bow to the fact that it is rather contentious at the moment. For that reason, I have exercised caution in what I said above (and even discussed HK as well). That said, it is a bit like walking through a mine-field, blindfolded. I understand being cautious - but can someone clarify what we should be looking out for, in particular?


It would appear there is some sensitivity to the proposition that Delta's decision to end TPE may be more broadly attributable to the "One China" players within the Atlanta Brass Section.
 
BoeingGuy
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Re: Delta ending Taipei service

Sat Jan 14, 2017 10:23 pm

MRYapproach wrote:
jfk777 wrote:
Taipei have seen a graveyard before, Singapore Air gave up its LAX to TPE over 10 years ago. TPE has also doubled it home grown airlines with China Airlines being upstaged by EVA Air. EVA recently has been very expansionary with its 777-300ER fleet flying to every major North American and European city, especially Star alliance hubs.


i just got home last night from another perfect SFO-TPE roundtrip on EVA. Granted NRT-TPE was not wholly dependent on North American traffic, but let's be real. US carriers are just not viable to Asia. Maybe if you have a frequent flyer angle or corporate requirement it makes sense.

Between EVA's perfect flight times and excellent Elite cabin product, and CI's new 777 interiors, it's no contest. Oh yeah, they're cheaper too.

OK, OK, I was a little jealous last night when we taxi'd out and passed the UA 744 bird. Maybe I can make run my next trip through Vancouver to ride on EVA's last 747s.


I beat you to it. I flew a CI 747-400 a few weeks ago YVR-TPE. Also flew a CI 777-300ER TPE-LAX. As I might have mentioned previously, I was very impressed with CI. Safety problems are long behind them. The service was excellent. As you indicate, the CI 777-300ER interior was really nice. The paneling was made up to look like bamboo. 3-4-3 was more tolerable then I expected, although it helped that myself and two seat mates were all slender. Very nice ride.

I would not hesitate to fly CI again, especially if they start coming to SEA.

My girlfriend has taken the EVA SEA-TPE flight quite a few times and says it's always full. Coach fares seem to usually be around $1000-1500 R/T, with an occasional special in the $700s.
Last edited by BoeingGuy on Sat Jan 14, 2017 10:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
globalcabotage
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Re: Delta ending Taipei service

Sat Jan 14, 2017 10:24 pm

DL is trying to make money or limit losses on key routes. If TPE is a dog, cut it. USA carriers can not afford routes for prestige (unlike other carriers, fill in the blank). USA carriers have to report to shareholders who want a return on their investment. Investing in airlines is a big risk, but investors give it a go and deal with the risks and rewards.
 
yeginleduc
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Re: Delta ending Taipei service

Sun Jan 15, 2017 3:07 am

Im surprised they are cutting NRT-TPE before NRT-PVG. Going without a presence in TPE for awhile while they figure out how to get TPE-SEA started will not help their brand. I understand the LCC competition and how they cant even get the Asian consolidators and tour groups onto their flights anymore but keeping their brand presence there is important to keep the business customers aware of the choice. UA dominates in Asia for US carriers and DL and AA should at least try and compete in the markets.
 
MonAmQB
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Re: Delta ending Taipei service

Sun Jan 15, 2017 3:42 am

SEA-TPE is 6,074 miles. Does B767 have the range to do it?
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Delta ending Taipei service

Sun Jan 15, 2017 3:59 am

MonAmQB wrote:
SEA-TPE is 6,074 miles. Does B767 have the range to do it?


IIRC, Delta's longest 767-300ER flight was JFK-AMM, at 5,738 miles. There are lots of diversion airports within 1,000 miles of each end of JFK-AMM.

If DL doesn't want to do SEA-TPE with the relatively premium-light A332 or 333, Delta just doesn't want to do it.
 
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TheLion
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Re: Delta ending Taipei service

Tue Jan 17, 2017 7:46 pm

Rajahdhani wrote:
TheLion wrote:
Could anyone explain what was so political about this subject that it caused posters to be banned?


Can I 2nd this? My thought was on the issue of "One China", and I bow to the fact that it is rather contentious at the moment. For that reason, I have exercised caution in what I said above (and even discussed HK as well). That said, it is a bit like walking through a mine-field, blindfolded. I understand being cautious - but can someone clarify what we should be looking out for, in particular?


I think we should be allowed to discuss this openly where it has relevance to aviation. And it is hugely relevant to aviation. Still. Discussion of this subject was very common in the past and indeed it is still a common subject brought up whenever changes in aviation policies, impact on aviation of relations between nation states, bilaterals etc are discussed.
 
FSDan
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Re: Delta ending Taipei service

Tue Jan 17, 2017 7:56 pm

The NRT-TPE flight is still showing up in the schedules at least into June, even after the weekend schedule update. Any word on the timeline of this route termination?
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Rajahdhani
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Re: Delta ending Taipei service

Tue Jan 17, 2017 8:22 pm

TheLion wrote:
Rajahdhani wrote:
TheLion wrote:
Could anyone explain what was so political about this subject that it caused posters to be banned?


Can I 2nd this? My thought was on the issue of "One China", and I bow to the fact that it is rather contentious at the moment. For that reason, I have exercised caution in what I said above (and even discussed HK as well). That said, it is a bit like walking through a mine-field, blindfolded. I understand being cautious - but can someone clarify what we should be looking out for, in particular?


I think we should be allowed to discuss this openly where it has relevance to aviation. And it is hugely relevant to aviation. Still. Discussion of this subject was very common in the past and indeed it is still a common subject brought up whenever changes in aviation policies, impact on aviation of relations between nation states, bilaterals etc are discussed.


I see that. I feel as if asking specific questions - might be construed as inflamatory - when in reality, I am uninformed and just need clarification, or an more intelligent answer.

Case in point, can DL expand their relationship with CI and not endanger their PRC relationship? I actually am offereing this question as an example, and wish to not have it answered - because I understand that the situation is 'fluid'. If possible, can the mods provide some clarificaiton of not only the 'points', but perhaps a guideline of acceptable discussion. It's a facsinatingly interesting topic, and as someone outside of it, I would love a discussion of it. Hell, even a highly moderated or guided one (where more restrictive rules regarding the discussion apply) might not be so bad - if we got decent and relevant facts and discussion.
 
lavalampluva
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Re: Delta ending Taipei service

Tue Jan 17, 2017 9:02 pm

NW was the major player between the US and Asia for decades. Once DL took over they've been losing market share. Yes, the Asian carriers, especially from Japan and China have gotten stronger, and DL is failing to keep up.
Remind me to send a thank you note to Mr. Boeing.
 
BoeingGuy
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Re: Delta ending Taipei service

Tue Jan 17, 2017 11:08 pm

I've never understood what forced DL to get rid of their NRT mini-hub. Everyone keeps saying that had to, or whatever. What is set in stone that said they had to downsize NRT?
 
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LAXintl
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Re: Delta ending Taipei service

Tue Jan 17, 2017 11:14 pm

BoeingGuy wrote:
I've never understood what forced DL to get rid of their NRT mini-hub. Everyone keeps saying that had to, or whatever. What is set in stone that said they had to downsize NRT?


It continued to bleed red-ink

Per last years book Glory Lost and Found, the NRT operation had lost money for last 8-years running, and did so for NWA as well towards the end prior to merger.

Delta even in one of the Haneda route case filings made mention it would be a losing battle remaining at NRT while AA and UA enjoyed access to HND through their JV partners.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
berari
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Re: Delta ending Taipei service

Tue Jan 17, 2017 11:48 pm

With all the rhetoric surrounding DL needing to court JAL or missing such opportunity, doing so, at least in JAL's perspective would have meant giving home turf access to a foreign entity when JAL itself could grow on its own. JAL's association with AA gives both parties equal opportunity on services between USA and Asia. Had DL offered to terminate at NRT and get JAL to take on pax intra-Asia, I think DL could have been seen as less of a threat and as a bigger opportunity.
 
cvgComair
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Re: Delta ending Taipei service

Wed Jan 18, 2017 12:11 am

BestWestern wrote:
B737900ER wrote:
The biggest issue with using PVG as a hub is China Eastern. MU is the worst of the major Chinese airlines. Customer service and reliability is awful. If you've ever traveled with them regularly for domestic Chinese or intra Asian flights, you know the experience is terrible. If DL really wants to partner with them extensively then somebody is going to have to overhaul the operations and culture of MU. If not, anyone with any kind of sense will book away from DL when flying to Asia.


Nobody in their right mind would choose to connect in Shanghai anyway. 100% agree on how poor MU is - an sub standard airline.


I have used them a number of times and the crew was very unhelpful and rude, especially to foreigners, but it's fine for short hops from PVG. Connecting in China is a pain, period. Domestic to Domestic, PVG/CAN/PEK/ect are fine, but I have no clue why you would connect to/from an International flight in China. I think they are a good partner for short intra-china flights, otherwise Delta really needs to work with Korean Air as ICN is positioned nicely to connect with the rest of Asia.

Also, I would like to point out that these sources say the route is "reportedly" ending, however DL has yet to announce anything or make changes on their schedule.
 
Freshside3
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Re: Delta ending Taipei service

Wed Jan 18, 2017 12:24 am

It's odd for DL to say that "budget airlines" was a main part of the reason that they are dropping TPE service. There are no "budget carriers" in the USA to TPE market......I don't see Air Asia, Scoot, etc. flying into the USA. All I see is BR, UA and CI.....somehow I am not buying into the "Budget Carriers" excuse.
 
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klm617
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Re: Delta ending Taipei service

Wed Jan 18, 2017 12:43 am

Freshside3 wrote:
It's odd for DL to say that "budget airlines" was a main part of the reason that they are dropping TPE service. There are no "budget carriers" in the USA to TPE market......I don't see Air Asia, Scoot, etc. flying into the USA. All I see is BR, UA and CI.....somehow I am not buying into the "Budget Carriers" excuse.



I think they are referring to the Tokyo-Taipei market rather than the Taipei-USA market. Either way it's just Delta making a statement for not getting their way something they are very good at.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
commavia
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Re: Delta ending Taipei service

Wed Jan 18, 2017 12:59 am

BoeingGuy wrote:
I've never understood what forced DL to get rid of their NRT mini-hub. Everyone keeps saying that had to, or whatever. What is set in stone that said they had to downsize NRT?


It's pretty simple, really. Northwest's NRT hub was highly successful when Northwest had several meaningful, significant and defensible competitive advantages. As those competitive advantages steadily eroded, the economic viability of the NRT hub steadily deteriorated.

For the period from the 1950s until 2010, there were effectively only two airlines that were capable of operating a singular, unified network - including coordinated schedules and fares - between the U.S. and Asia, and those two airlines were Northwest and United. They could pull from their vast domestic networks, and push passengers over their NRT hub to their NRT-Asia networks, and do all of this in a profit-maximizing way. No U.S. carrier had similar access to beyond-NRT Asia, and no Asian carrier had similar access to the domestic U.S.

All of that has now changed, in two critical ways. First and foremost, market liberalization and the advent of far more efficient, longer-haul aircraft (777 and 787) have dramatically reduced the necessity of NRT as a stopover point. Today, it is quite possible - and profitable - to fly nonstop from the principle gateways of the U.S. nonstop to the principle cities of East Asia, including in Japan but also in Korea, China, etc. It's very similar to what happened across the Atlantic in the 1980s with the advent of the 767. Secondly, Northwest (and its corporate successor Delta) is no longer one of the only two carriers that operate such coordinated networks spanning the entire U.S. and Asia market. That massive advantage is now gone. AA and JAL now have the right to coordinate their schedules and fares across their transpacific networks and, in effect, also coordinate their schedules and fares just as Northwest did for decades. The same goes for United and ANA.

So in a world where other airlines share the same ability to create unified, coordinated networks across the Pacific, and new aircraft facilitate more nonstop flying, suddenly the U.S.-Asia market for U.S. carriers becomes far less about access to NRT, and instead far more about the relative competitiveness of U.S. gateway hubs in and of themselves. And therein lies the story of how AA has managed to close so much of the gap with Delta in the last five years - because, as most would objectively conclude, AA has some pretty good gateways to Asia. And to oversimplify, AA simply couldn't unlock those gateways' potential without a transpacific JV and some 787s. The combination of LAX, DFW and ORD is pretty excellent for broad connectivity between the domestic U.S. network and Asia - not as good as United's network, to be sure, but arguably just as good if not better than Delta's Asia focus markets of DTW, SEA and (to a lesser extent than AA) LAX. United, to state the obvious, simply continues to monetize its U.S. gateway hub structure would can only be described as dominant - the combination of SFO, first and foremost, plus ORD and EWR is simply unbeatable.

Again - all of this has basically nothing to do with Delta. The writing was on the wall for Northwest's NRT operation well over a decade ago - well before the Delta merger - as the A.net threads of the time on the subject will attest. In fact, I continue to strongly suspect that, absent the strength and support of the broader network that the Delta merger facilitated, an independent Northwest would have been in an even more precarious position at NRT than Delta is today.

berari wrote:
With all the rhetoric surrounding DL needing to court JAL or missing such opportunity, doing so, at least in JAL's perspective would have meant giving home turf access to a foreign entity when JAL itself could grow on its own. JAL's association with AA gives both parties equal opportunity on services between USA and Asia. Had DL offered to terminate at NRT and get JAL to take on pax intra-Asia, I think DL could have been seen as less of a threat and as a bigger opportunity.


Well of course. As was speculated at the time, and as seems even more likely in hindsight, this almost certainly played a role in the decision of JAL's management to stick with AA instead of switching to Delta. JAL management undoubtedly saw that AA would need JAL more than Delta, and that would likely lead to JAL being able to retain more of its independence. Given Delta's relationship with some of its other "strategic" partners around the world, it's hard to argue with the JAL management's logic. Plus, JAL management likely saw the writing on the wall - again, that Delta needed JAL much more than the other way around in a bid to salvage NRT. Contrary to the comical assertions of a poster at the time, in February 2010, that Delta would (paraphrasing) "dump capacity across the Pacific until it bankrupts JAL once and for all," the reality was and is that JAL had the clear upper hand at NRT. JAL is incredibly profitable now, has an apparently quite successful JV with AA, and Delta's NRT hub is today a shadow of its former self.
 
NichCage
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Re: Delta ending Taipei service

Wed Jan 18, 2017 1:12 am

Delta is not the only one cutting back on there Tokyo hub. United Airlines has cut back on routes, ending flights to cities to BKK, SIN, etc. Tokyo still sees a lot of flights from United, but mostly from the USA (and a flight to ICN as well).

If someone could answer my question, why did Delta cut flights between JFK and NRT? Was it due to the 747-400 retirement?
 
ty97
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Re: Delta ending Taipei service

Wed Jan 18, 2017 1:26 am

NichCage wrote:
Delta is not the only one cutting back on there Tokyo hub. United Airlines has cut back on routes, ending flights to cities to BKK, SIN, etc. Tokyo still sees a lot of flights from United, but mostly from the USA (and a flight to ICN as well).

If someone could answer my question, why did Delta cut flights between JFK and NRT? Was it due to the 747-400 retirement?


Delta canceled JFK-NRT last year as part of their ongoing slow drawdown of the NRT hub. JFK-NRT cancelation was announced alongside cancelation of NRT-KIX and NRT-BKK. DL publicly blamed its inability move all flights to HND, and the competitive disadvantage that the NRT/HND split operations causes. Of course, JFK-NRT may have also been losing money (but only DL would know whether that is true or not).

When I took the route last year, it was a 777.
 
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LAXintl
Topic Author
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Re: Delta ending Taipei service

Wed Jan 18, 2017 1:37 am

commavia wrote:
All of that has now changed, in two critical ways. First and foremost, market liberalization and the advent of far more efficient, longer-haul aircraft (777 and 787) have dramatically reduced the necessity of NRT as a stopover point. Today, it is quite possible - and profitable - to fly nonstop from the principle gateways of the U.S. nonstop to the principle cities of East Asia, including in Japan but also in Korea, China, etc. It's very similar to what happened across the Atlantic in the 1980s with the advent of the 767.


All excellent points in your post.

One huge strategic difference which turned out to be large advantage for United was that it recognized early and pursued routes that overflew Japan and sought to serve growing number of Asian cities directly from the US.
By the late 1990s with growing 777 fleet, UA was able to shift capacity away from NRT hub and instead look at fly direct services.

NW at the same was largely handicapped by its larger gauge and less efficient aircraft(DC-10/747s) and continued to plod along at NRT.

NW also towards its last decade in Japan also became the consolidators special airline. Growing volume of its Pacific network seats were sold at heavy discounts via consolidators as it struggled to remain competitive in both the corporate and individual travel market directly.

NichCage wrote:
Delta is not the only one cutting back on there Tokyo hub. United Airlines has cut back on routes, ending flights to cities to BKK, SIN, etc. Tokyo still sees a lot of flights from United, but mostly from the USA (and a flight to ICN as well).


United thanks to its ANA JV has an even stronger hub in Tokyo then ever before.
The JV has allowed ANA to launch many new NRT routes such as KUL, MNL, CGK and DEL based on the feed and revenue the ATI JV enabled.

NichCage wrote:
If someone could answer my question, why did Delta cut flights between JFK and NRT? Was it due to the 747-400 retirement?


Quite clearly they were weak performers and DL did not feel they could remain in the market. Remember NWA also dropped JFK-NRT which DL relaunched.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
N212R
Posts: 333
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Re: Delta ending Taipei service

Wed Jan 18, 2017 1:48 am

commavia wrote:
Again - all of this has basically nothing to do with Delta.


That would certainly explain why you've provided an exhaustive, long-winded response to a thread entitled "DELTA ending Taipei service". :wink2: Thank you nonetheless for the excellent post.
 
United1
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Re: Delta ending Taipei service

Wed Jan 18, 2017 1:55 am

NichCage wrote:
Delta is not the only one cutting back on there Tokyo hub. United Airlines has cut back on routes, ending flights to cities to BKK, SIN, etc. Tokyo still sees a lot of flights from United, but mostly from the USA (and a flight to ICN as well).


True UA has been trimming back intra-Asia service at NRT on it's own metal however UA is still very much in the US-NRT-BKK/SIN markets via its JV partner NH.
I know the voices in my head aren't real but sometimes their ideas are just awesome!!!
 
commavia
Posts: 11489
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Re: Delta ending Taipei service

Wed Jan 18, 2017 1:55 am

LAXintl wrote:
One huge strategic difference which turned out to be large advantage for United was that it recognized early and pursued routes that overflew Japan and sought to serve growing number of Asian cities directly from the US.
By the late 1990s with growing 777 fleet, UA was able to shift capacity away from NRT hub and instead look at fly direct services.

NW at the same was largely handicapped by its larger gauge and less efficient aircraft(DC-10/747s) and continued to plod along at NRT.


For sure. Aircraft were a distinct handicap for Northwest, along with the network.

Northwest's very capital-light, very-long-lifed fleet strategy (DC9s, DC10s, etc.) served the airline well in general for decades. But in the particular case of Asia, the A330 likely came to late, and the 787 would have come far too late, to radically change the outcome. But that challenge was inextricably linked to the network. Northwest's network simply wasn't well positioned for a nonstop U.S.-Asia world. When virtually all flights had to stop at a U.S. gateway, and then again in Asia - i.e., the world that existed pretty much up until the late 1990s - Northwest did fine. If many if not most connections must be 2-stop, Northwest was at a competitive advantage because of its plethora of U.S. gateways to NRT and beyond-NRT Asia flights. But as soon as nonstops overlying NRT became viable, Northwest's network became far less advantageous.

To the point of this thread - the case of TPE is actually quite instructive. As we now see, United has managed to do something that now no other U.S. carrier can do - maintain branded access to TPE. The route is operated with a 747 now, but obviously will switch permanently to a 777 or 787 in the near future. And the reason United is able to maintain branded access to TPE while Delta and AA can't is quite obvious - just three letters - S-F-O. SFO is the preeminent hub between the U.S. and Asia in the same way that MIA is between the U.S. and Latin America. With the combination of the right fleet and the right hub(s), United is able to make markets - like TPE - work where competitors can't.

LAXintl wrote:
NW also towards its last decade in Japan also became the consolidators special airline. Growing volume of its Pacific network seats were sold at heavy discounts via consolidators as it struggled to remain competitive in both the corporate and individual travel market directly.


Very true. When I lived in Singapore - a decade ago, just before the Delta/Northwest merger - the brand perception of most people I encountered there towards Northwest was "cheap flights to the U.S."
 
grbauc
Posts: 1469
Joined: Sat Mar 28, 2015 9:05 pm

Re: Delta ending Taipei service

Wed Jan 18, 2017 2:23 am

TheLion wrote:
Could anyone explain what was so political about this subject that it caused posters to be banned?


I sent a private message to the moderator and I've gotten no reply. :irked:
 
BoeingGuy
Posts: 6313
Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2010 6:01 pm

Re: Delta ending Taipei service

Wed Jan 18, 2017 4:16 am

grbauc wrote:
TheLion wrote:
Could anyone explain what was so political about this subject that it caused posters to be banned?


I sent a private message to the moderator and I've gotten no reply. :irked:


I don't think anyone was banned. I replied politically to a political message and both were deleted. I'm not banned AFAIK.

My girlfriend is Taiwanese so I have feelings and an opinion about the political issue. ;)
 
grbauc
Posts: 1469
Joined: Sat Mar 28, 2015 9:05 pm

Re: Delta ending Taipei service

Wed Jan 18, 2017 5:22 am

N212R wrote:
commavia wrote:
Again - all of this has basically nothing to do with Delta.


That would certainly explain why you've provided an exhaustive, long-winded response to a thread entitled "DELTA ending Taipei service". :wink2: Thank you nonetheless for the excellent post.


He was talking about NRT's Importance that has changed and had nothing to do with DL because that was market factors that happened before and during NW time. So his Long winded post that I think gave a nice overlap of the history of NRT, Airlines and the Region If it truly was really long winded it would be one point that would be beating the same point over and over and over. Now that I did not get from the post.

Of course the wink ; ) signifies Humor and in that case touche well done :yes:
 
WA707atMSP
Posts: 1926
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Re: Delta ending Taipei service

Wed Jan 18, 2017 1:51 pm

commavia wrote:
LAXintl wrote:
For sure. Aircraft were a distinct handicap for Northwest, along with the network.

Northwest's very capital-light, very-long-lifed fleet strategy (DC9s, DC10s, etc.) served the airline well in general for decades. But in the particular case of Asia, the A330 likely came to late, and the 787 would have come far too late, to radically change the outcome. But that challenge was inextricably linked to the network. Northwest's network simply wasn't well positioned for a nonstop U.S.-Asia world. When virtually all flights had to stop at a U.S. gateway, and then again in Asia - i.e., the world that existed pretty much up until the late 1990s - Northwest did fine. If many if not most connections must be 2-stop, Northwest was at a competitive advantage because of its plethora of U.S. gateways to NRT and beyond-NRT Asia flights. But as soon as nonstops overlying NRT became viable, Northwest's network became far less advantageous.


Unfortunately, this was one of the many ways Northwest was almost destroyed by the 1989 hostile takeover. Before the takeover, Northwest had almost no debt. Because Northwest was almost debt-free, they had the lowest break even load factors of any US airline, and could also renew their fleet much more quickly than their competitors. After the takeover, every decision NW management made was based on how to conserve cash, because their debt was so high.

Had Northwest taken delivery of their A340s in the early 1990s to replace their DC-10s, Northwest could have built up a Seattle hub with A340s overflying NRT to SEL / TPE / HKG / etc, but NW was forced to defer the order and operate their DC-10s much longer than planned. Northwest could also have built up a domestic hub in SEA more easily, because in the 1990s, AS had very few routes east of the Rockies, so an NW buildup at SEA would have been in partnership with AS, rather than in competition with AS. Definitely a lost opportunity.

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