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Cubsrule
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Re: Forbes: British Airways struggles with BoB

Sat Jan 14, 2017 11:26 pm

Swadian wrote:
This is the trend; this is the way it's going to be. All the EU airlines are going to end up with no complimentary meal service in Y, high-density A321s, etc.. But I do agree that they should offer coffee, tea, and water with no extra charge. Right now EU airlines are getting worse than AA. One could say they are already worse. If EU legacies get worse than NA legacies, people are just going to fly LCCs. Maybe they should emulate NA legacies rather than FR.


Remember that the US legacies experimented with charging for beverages in the 2009 timeframe. (I'm deliberately not saying North American because AC has had a somewhat difference experience.). Today, all offer free beverages on flights longer than about 350 km, and snack service has improved. It's a process, but perhaps BA will evolve similarly?

To me, a big part of the problem is that carriers treat "Europe" monolithically as far as service is concerned. LHR-AMS probably does not need buy on board; a drink run and perhaps a small free snack (biscuits, crisps, etc.) is sufficient. LHR-WAW is not really a comparable flight.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
tonystan
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Re: Forbes: British Airways struggles with BoB

Sat Jan 14, 2017 11:51 pm

Having experienced it for the first time today on a flight that was only 65% full to Dublin I was a little shocked at just how badly it has been executed.

Crew did a weird initial meal order waking through the cabin asking if anyone wanted any of the hot items. They then went to cook them. 25 minutes after take off (flight was only 55 mins) 2 crew then pushed the trolley to the front of the cabin and spent the next 20 minutes faffing around with the computer till thing (it looks like an adapted iPad with a receipt printer attached to it) and didn't manage to reach the last 10 or so rows before the 10 minute call. I really felt sorry for the poor crew, you could tell it wasn't their fault and they simply struggled with the tools they were given and the standard to which it was meant to be delivered.
My views are my own and do not reflect any other person or organisation.
 
B787Finder
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Re: Forbes: British Airways struggles with BoB

Sun Jan 15, 2017 12:05 pm

I presume most of you don't know- but if you want the same service fly from LCY/STN as these London station's haven't changed yet.
 
rutankrd
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Re: Forbes: British Airways struggles with BoB

Sun Jan 15, 2017 12:22 pm

sevenair wrote:
Perhaps they should have done a Virgin Australia type service by offering a complimentary drink but providing the option to purchase during an interim period. Guage response. Tweak the service and then remove the complimentary options.

I do not agree with those who say there will not be time. easyJet and Ryanair all have higher passenger to crew ratios and operate a lot of short busy sectors. When I was crew I think there was once on a Friday evening UK domestic when we ran out of time to serve all passengers.


BA have dabbled with BOB , full meal, back to BOB, or no food at all across the various ticket grades in the European network for decades.
 
by738
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Re: Forbes: British Airways struggles with BoB

Sun Jan 15, 2017 12:37 pm

rutankrd wrote:
BA have dabbled with BOB , full meal, back to BOB, or no food at all across the various ticket grades in the European network for decades.

When was the last mainline shorthaul 'dabble' with meal/food service BOB?
 
rutankrd
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Re: Forbes: British Airways struggles with BoB

Sun Jan 15, 2017 1:15 pm

by738 wrote:
rutankrd wrote:
BA have dabbled with BOB , full meal, back to BOB, or no food at all across the various ticket grades in the European network for decades.

When was the last mainline shorthaul 'dabble' with meal/food service BOB?


The entire Gatwick short haul is BOB and as far as the buying public are concerned its a mainline operation.

Prior to sale the regional international services were BOB

Like I said the operator has decades of on/off BOB catering experiences.

Personally I am ambivalent to the latest moves on the LHR network.

BA/AA very deep and extensive frequencies and unrivalled range of US destinations will continue to drive the 30+% transfer traffic over the North Atlantic, sogging sandwich or not on the Euro sector.
 
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ClassicLover
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Re: Forbes: British Airways struggles with BoB

Sun Jan 15, 2017 1:41 pm

ba319-131 wrote:
Looking at it now, a First Class passenger flying say LAX-EDI via LHR will now have to pay for water if they want it on the domestic leg. Seriously, how shocking is that?? - yes, CE is going to be introduced on domestics in due course, but it's not here yet.

Also, what about us Gold (and Silver) card holders who one way or another shell out several thousand pounds a year on travel, we have lovely (some) lounges with food of some kind and plenty of drinks to choose from, yet now we have to pay once on the plane, where is this loyalty to us?


I understand your point regarding the F passenger connecting to domestic. However, you have to remember this person will have received a full meal on board both at the start of the flight and a second meal at the end. Also, you can eat in the lounges at Heathrow. I am sure for a 1 hour or less sector they can do without water until Club Europe is extended to domestic. I agree it's not great for now, but it's no real show stopper. Someone travelling in F can probably afford to fork out a couple of pounds for water if they're thirsty.

I don't agree with the "where's the loyalty to us" for the Gold and Silver frequent flyers. The on board product is not designed to discriminate by frequent flyer status - that is a totally separate thing. All Euro Traveller passengers and all Club Europe passengers are offered the same service because that is what you paid for. I think it would be highly irritating to other passengers to see the person next to you getting free things while you have to pay.

Either way, flying down the back, sometimes I am hungry, sometimes I am thirsty, sometimes I am both, sometimes I am neither. It allows me to have the choice and to pay accordingly, which is the same for virtually every other airline in Europe. As I tend to like to try the food on board, I always buy something when I fly Aer Lingus for example. I don't find it a big deal.
I do enjoy a spot of flying, especially when it's not in economy!
 
LHRFlyer
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Re: Forbes: British Airways struggles with BoB

Sun Jan 15, 2017 1:55 pm

Most of the complaints so far have been around the logistics which will no doubt be ironed out quite quickly.

The European majors all followed each other in terms of adding extra seats to short haul aircraft and offering basic fares with no baggage allowance.

LH will be watching this very closely.
 
tonystan
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Re: Forbes: British Airways struggles with BoB

Sun Jan 15, 2017 3:33 pm

rutankrd wrote:
by738 wrote:
rutankrd wrote:
BA have dabbled with BOB , full meal, back to BOB, or no food at all across the various ticket grades in the European network for decades.

When was the last mainline shorthaul 'dabble' with meal/food service BOB?


The entire Gatwick short haul is BOB and as far as the buying public are concerned its a mainline operation.

Prior to sale the regional international services were BOB

Like I said the operator has decades of on/off BOB catering experiences.

Personally I am ambivalent to the latest moves on the LHR network.

BA/AA very deep and extensive frequencies and unrivalled range of US destinations will continue to drive the 30+% transfer traffic over the North Atlantic, sogging sandwich or not on the Euro sector.


Not sure where you get your information from Rutankrd however the shorthaul operation in LGW has never been BOB, not until this change last week.

There was only a brief fling with BOB back in 2004 when the then BA Connect affiliate was set up by merging a lot of the regional operations together. This had a BOB service however it was soon sold off and merged into Flybe.
My views are my own and do not reflect any other person or organisation.
 
by738
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Re: Forbes: British Airways struggles with BoB

Sun Jan 15, 2017 3:57 pm

dont recall mainline LGW (or mainline regional international) ever being BOB.
 
BAWLGW
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Re: Forbes: British Airways struggles with BoB

Sun Jan 15, 2017 4:13 pm

Didn't GB Airways and BA Connect have BOB?
 
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OA260
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Re: Forbes: British Airways struggles with BoB

Sun Jan 15, 2017 4:19 pm

ClassicLover wrote:

Either way, flying down the back, sometimes I am hungry, sometimes I am thirsty, sometimes I am both, sometimes I am neither. It allows me to have the choice and to pay accordingly, which is the same for virtually every other airline in Europe. As I tend to like to try the food on board, I always buy something when I fly Aer Lingus for example. I don't find it a big deal.


Agreed. The offerings across the Irish sea on BHD/DUB-LHR were pathetic compared to EI BOB and compared to other < 3 hour routes. Just because something is free does not make it worth having! This BOB concept is a culture shock to some and especially some BA crew who seem to think it is beneath them to be selling food. As with EI all those years ago it will take a while to adapt and get it right but they will do it as that is now the product. EI do it on shorter sectors then the average BA route so it proves it can be done. If crew need support in terms of the way they do the onboard service then this should be supported by management.

Over the years I have seen many BOB products and perks for FF members. BMI used to offer free items from the BOB for Blue/Silver/Gold card holders but this was never an ideal situation. Flybe gave out paper vouchers for their ''Prem Y '' product etc...

I would be very surprised to see BA backtrack on this move as in reality like other changes including the new CE cabin people get on with it after time. I always said BA would bring in BOB and plenty said it would never happen.
 
tonystan
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Re: Forbes: British Airways struggles with BoB

Sun Jan 15, 2017 4:56 pm

BAWLGW wrote:
Didn't GB Airways and BA Connect have BOB?


Nopes GB offered the same product as mainline including CE, however BA Connect did have BOB for the short time it existed.
My views are my own and do not reflect any other person or organisation.
 
MartijnNL
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Re: Forbes: British Airways struggles with BoB

Sun Jan 15, 2017 5:23 pm

airbazar wrote:
MaverickM11 wrote:
I don't know why EU carriers bother with free catering in Y anymore; the passengers could not be more clear as to their preference.

Agree 100%. Not just the EU carriers but any carrier on any route that is less than 4 hours or doesn't operate during a typical meal time. For example, every TATL flight departing after 9PM should do away with dinner service. Another example, last month I flew with LH, LHR-MUC. The flight departed at 1:50p and arrived at 4:30p, and they served a sandwich and drinks. Why? Why is that even necessary? I don't get it. It's not only unnecessary but for those of us who were connecting from the TATL red-eye and wanted to sleep/rest a little more, the commotion from the "food service" was disturbing and annoying.

Disagree 100%. I and many people I know always enjoy complimentary food and drinks. And what's the obsession with sleep on short flights? Can't you stay awake for 90 more minutes? Just admire the view from above with a drink and try to get some rest at your destination.
 
Swadian
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Re: Forbes: British Airways struggles with BoB

Sun Jan 15, 2017 6:48 pm

LHRFlyer wrote:
Most of the complaints so far have been around the logistics which will no doubt be ironed out quite quickly.

The European majors all followed each other in terms of adding extra seats to short haul aircraft and offering basic fares with no baggage allowance.

LH will be watching this very closely.


LH seems to be doing pretty poorly with regard to labor issues, so I would not be surprised if they follow BA's footsteps.
 
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eurowings
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Re: Forbes: British Airways struggles with BoB

Sun Jan 15, 2017 8:25 pm

tonystan wrote:
BAWLGW wrote:
Didn't GB Airways and BA Connect have BOB?


Nopes GB offered the same product as mainline including CE, however BA Connect did have BOB for the short time it existed.


Actually GB Airways did BoB on their routes from MAN for a short while before they were sold to easyJet and they were branded as BA Connect to differentiate themselves from mainline out of LGW and LHR.

My main problem with the BA BoB is that it just isn't that great - around the same prices and products as easyJet and they don't take cash. You can pre-order Full hot breakfasts on Aer Lingus while BA you take your chances on getting a bacon roll.

The longer routes to e.g. LCA are a bit of a concern too, leisure carriers like TUI offer hot box meals while BA is on "premium" sandwiches.
"Freddie Laker may be at peace with his Maker, but he is persona non grata with IATA."- HRH Duke of Edinburgh
 
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eurowings
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Re: Forbes: British Airways struggles with BoB

Sun Jan 15, 2017 8:35 pm

Swadian wrote:
LHRFlyer wrote:
Most of the complaints so far have been around the logistics which will no doubt be ironed out quite quickly.

The European majors all followed each other in terms of adding extra seats to short haul aircraft and offering basic fares with no baggage allowance.

LH will be watching this very closely.


LH seems to be doing pretty poorly with regard to labor issues, so I would not be surprised if they follow BA's footsteps.


I'd argue Lufthansa was pretty ahead of the curve since Eurowings has taken over the majority of their point-to-point traffic, EW is also coming to MUC and will probably soon be in FRA to compete with Ryanair.
"Freddie Laker may be at peace with his Maker, but he is persona non grata with IATA."- HRH Duke of Edinburgh
 
spud757
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Re: Forbes: British Airways struggles with BoB

Sun Jan 15, 2017 11:39 pm

Don't understand the logic why BOB was introduced before CE (or equiviant) was introduced onto domestic services. Why risk alienating F and J passengers who are connecting on domestic? Surely BOB could have waited until BA was ready to go with CE domestic. It's not as though BA we're losing money.

I do hope we'll see some compromise on BOB. Complimentary tea, coffee and water should be available to all pax. I also agree BA is missing a trick with not offering hot breakfast and main meal options for longer sectors; these could be available if pre-paid/ordered online. The current BOB menu, even compared to IAG sister EI, is pitiful.
 
spud757
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Re: Forbes: British Airways struggles with BoB

Sun Jan 15, 2017 11:40 pm

Don't understand the logic why BOB was introduced before CE (or equiviant) was introduced onto domestic services. Why risk alienating F and J passengers who are connecting on domestic? Surely BOB could have waited until BA was ready to go with CE domestic. It's not as though BA we're losing money.

I do hope we'll see some compromise on BOB. Complimentary tea, coffee and water should be available to all pax. I also agree BA is missing a trick with not offering hot breakfast and main meal options for longer sectors; these could be available if pre-paid/ordered online. The current BOB menu, even compared to IAG sister EI, is pitiful.
 
AIR MALTA
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Re: Forbes: British Airways struggles with BoB

Mon Jan 16, 2017 7:55 am

Another few flights leaving without food being loaded: yesterday's Athens Heathrow and today's Belfast Heathrow. We are 6 days into this shambolic disgraceful move and BA are still struggling...
Next flights : BRU-ZRH-CAI (LX)/ BRU-FCO-TLV (AZ)
 
tonystan
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Re: Forbes: British Airways struggles with BoB

Mon Jan 16, 2017 8:21 am

AIR MALTA wrote:
Another few flights leaving without food being loaded: yesterday's Athens Heathrow and today's Belfast Heathrow. We are 6 days into this shambolic disgraceful move and BA are still struggling...


By the sounds of it it's not just food that's not being loaded, it's the device needed for selling them. Either not enough, none at all or faulty.

Regards not enough food being loaded, I'm hearing of full flights to the far reaches of Europe leaving London with merely 4 or 5 sandwiches. When it's reported back to London the managers involved seem surprised the demand has been "so high"!

It seems like an utter disaster instigate by those completely out of touch with their consumers and who failed to listen to any of the front line staff.
My views are my own and do not reflect any other person or organisation.
 
n729pa
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Re: Forbes: British Airways struggles with BoB

Mon Jan 16, 2017 8:32 am

Having flown down to MAD on Saturday on a largely empty B767, the service was slow. Talking to the crew as a number of posts have said, the biggest problem seems to be getting use to the equipment, in particular the card payment machine was clumsy to operate. I said what would happen on a busy flight to Paris? ......the people at the back wouldn't get anything was the honest answer. As it was a no cash payments, their concern also centred on not being able to pick up on signal on the card machine too.

I didn't think a great deal of their new Java Coffee product, the self filtering element left me with a slightly unpleasant feeling that was akin to what I would imagine it would have been like to use a hoover bag as a filter. Certainly not worth £2.30. In fact coming back on the Iberia A340, the coffee at EUR2.30 (and where they do take cash too) was far better, all be it a vending machine style presentation and taste.

Whilst I'm not altogether in favour of BA going down the BOB road - I do happen to think it cheapens their brand and does little for their image. In fact long term I do believe it will be detrimental - people expect to pay on Easyjet/Ryanair etc., because their fares reflect that. The fares on BA do not.

However, what I think BA should have done, is gone down the same road as SAS or Finnair, for example and give you a standard drinks (ie tea/coffee/water), anything else you pay for. It costs very little to provide a hot drink, and whilst there are costs associated with food preparation/storage etc., for those that want a sandwich can buy one, those that don't - don't and the wastage and costs look after themselves.

Two work colleagues of mine have travelled BA long haul in the past few weeks, one Y BOS-LHR and one C DOH-LHR. The Boston flyer couldn't believe how poor their service was and wondered why, when asked do you want a drink, the two of them were given several bottles of wine or tins of coke to last them the rest of the flight - the crew were absent for the remainder of the flight until a snack (chocolate bar) was offered around before landing. The C business from DOH was so cheesed off with their service, that he lodged a formal complaint - and he's not the type of person that normally would bother. The point being that passengers are noticing a down turn in BA's performance and service, and in the longer term that can't be a good thing.

I fly quite a lot, 50-70 flights per year, and as a OW FF it suits me to fly BA as much as possible, however the number of flights I take on BA year on year are diminishing all the time. Some routes I don't even fly on BA now, preferring KLM, Alitalia, Air France, and Swiss who I rank very highly in any case. I'm taking TAP to Lisbon in a few months, I've got an open mind at the moment on that one . But once a perception about a reputation is in the human mind it takes a lot more to change it, so time will tell. Life tends to go in circles so probably in 10 years there will be a news worthy thread on here about BA giving away free food and drink on their European services to get customers back.
 
Bongodog1964
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Re: Forbes: British Airways struggles with BoB

Mon Jan 16, 2017 9:24 am

It seems to me that the BA introduction of BOB is little short of a complete mess. I've just looked at the menu, and it shouldn't be too difficult to manage, there are only three food items served hot, two sandwiches and a porridge pot. I doubt there's much demand for the porridge beyond 9.30am. The problems probably stem from two things, firstly an airline with virtually zero experience of BOB, and secondly they chose a catering supplier who not only had no experience of providing BOB, but also had no experience of even supplying airlines.

There seems to be three problems, firstly a lack of food being loaded, secondly problems with a payment system that will not accept cash, and thirdly hot food not being readily available.
In regard to lack of food, this is either down to the supply chain simply not having enough stock, or they aren't loading it to minimise waste. Normally at day 1 you would over cater to create a good impression, and accept that waste will be high.
Payment, Yes card payments are becoming increasingly the norm, but there has to be a good reason why U2 and FR accept £ and euro, probably because it is easy to administer and foolproof.
The non availability of hot food is also a problem, on a LHR - EDI flight as an example where passengers have been used to receiving their BA full English breakfast a few minutes after take off, they do not expect to have to wait 20 minutes or more from ordering for their bacon roll to arrive. BA need to heat on spec and take a potential hit on the wastage.

Why did they choose a supplier with a decent high street brand, but no airline experience ? Is the food made up in existing M & S facilities, or a dedicated airline one ?
 
Lofty
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Re: Forbes: British Airways struggles with BoB

Mon Jan 16, 2017 10:15 am

The old BA would have tested this on some routes etc and a year down the line introduced it. The new BA under Alex is go ahead if it works that is good if not we may have to revisit it.
 
MartijnNL
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Re: Forbes: British Airways struggles with BoB

Mon Jan 16, 2017 10:34 am

ClassicLover wrote:
Someone travelling in F can probably afford to fork out a couple of pounds for water if they're thirsty.

A couple of pounds for water? So much for your first class experience. Water should always be complimentary. I for sure wouldn't want to use my credit card for buying drinks, especially not when travelling in F.
 
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GCT64
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Re: Forbes: British Airways struggles with BoB

Mon Jan 16, 2017 10:46 am

n729pa wrote:
Whilst I'm not altogether in favour of BA going down the BOB road - I do happen to think it cheapens their brand and does little for their image. In fact long term I do believe it will be detrimental - people expect to pay on Easyjet/Ryanair etc., because their fares reflect that. The fares on BA do not.
.


I think they have lost any differentiation from EZY and FR and, simultaneously, are not competing on price. This seems to me to be a bad place to be.

I flew LHR-EDI last night and the new in-flight experience was no different from EZY, then at EDI the completely full BA A321 was put on a very remote stand (on the cargo ramp!) and then only one set of stairs was used to get everyone off and into the buses. Consequently a 10 minute or less delay was turned into, effectively, a 30+ delay. Certainly not a differentiated experience and lots of passengers grumbling about how BA had gone downhill.

Of course, everyone will say "but that's what the passengers want: low fares" but if BA offer exactly the same product as EZY at, typically, £50 more for a hand baggage only LON-EDI return how is that being competitive? no service differentiation and not price competitive.
Flown in: A20N,A21N,A30B,A306,A310,A319,A320,A321,A332,A333,A343,A346,A359,A388,BA11,BU31,(..56 more types..),VC10,WESX
 
LHRFlyer
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Re: Forbes: British Airways struggles with BoB

Mon Jan 16, 2017 10:52 am

The parking at remote stands at EDI is temporary due to development work at the airport:

http://www.speedbirdclub.com/nl/all-new ... diaptwork/
 
oldannyboy
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Re: Forbes: British Airways struggles with BoB

Mon Jan 16, 2017 2:35 pm

The products themselves should sell themselves. Marks and Spencer are a brand that's deeply engrained in the British psyche, and a BoB scheme is the way the industry has been going for a long time now. I would rather buy something decent onboard than be stuck with a barely edible excuse for a sandwich and no other options.


Crap, my friend. Utter crap.
People are ok with BoB when you fly the likes of EZ or FR. Not when you are already paying a premium to fly AY or BA intra-Europe. And no, they are NOT as cheap as low costs. So they should be offering a decent level of service. I don't get why BA has to compete with LCCs on product (since in effect it does not on price), when they are always the first to point the finger at LCCs, and are always quick to point out the difference between 'them" and "the others".
 
superjeff
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Re: Forbes: British Airways struggles with BoB

Mon Jan 16, 2017 4:27 pm

A while ago BA reconfigured their narrow body fleet with a 28 inch pitch (the same as Spirit in the U.S. and Ryanair in Europe). What is the difference between this and the LCC's? Now they've gone to BoB (we all saw it coming because that's what happened in the U.S.) but gone beyond any arguably valid claim by charging for non alcoholic beverages. Granted that the intra-European operations demands and expectations are different from those in the states, but over on this side of the pond, it wasn't that long ago that Southwest was considered a LCC and the full service carriers were different because they provided more: meals, seat reservations, etc. Today, the Southwest type of operation generally offer more than the legacy carriers, and, as a result, Southwest carries more passengers than any of the US 3 mega-carriers. I'm afraid IAG is going to find out that they cannot have a reputation as a premium operation while nickel and diming for everything. In the U.S., that hurt United, it hurt the former U.S. Airways, and in Europe they are still having to compete with the KLM's, AF's, even Lufthansa Group carriers, most of which offer better insflight service.
 
jmmadrid
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Re: Forbes: British Airways struggles with BoB

Mon Jan 16, 2017 4:45 pm

n729pa wrote:
Having flown down to MAD on Saturday on a largely empty B767


When you checked in on-line, where you able to chose your seat or was it assigned to you randomly?

n729pa wrote:
In fact coming back on the Iberia A340,


Same question about IBERIA, I flew MAD-LHR-MAD with them last week and was given a middle seat. Then they showed me the seat map with plenty of windows and aisles available but they wanted 14 euros from me to change my seat.

n729pa wrote:
I'm taking TAP to Lisbon in a few months, I've got an open mind at the moment on that one .


My sister in law is a businesswoman and a frequent flyer and just came back from Miami with TAP (MIA-LIS-MAD).
She said the service in Y was flawless. An old-fashioned legacy with hot meals, free wine, etc.
 
n729pa
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Re: Forbes: British Airways struggles with BoB

Mon Jan 16, 2017 5:54 pm

jmmadrid wrote:
n729pa wrote:
Having flown down to MAD on Saturday on a largely empty B767


When you checked in on-line, where you able to chose your seat or was it assigned to you randomly?

n729pa wrote:
In fact coming back on the Iberia A340,


Same question about IBERIA, I flew MAD-LHR-MAD with them last week and was given a middle seat. Then they showed me the seat map with plenty of windows and aisles available but they wanted 14 euros from me to change my seat.

n729pa wrote:
I'm taking TAP to Lisbon in a few months, I've got an open mind at the moment on that one .


My sister in law is a businesswoman and a frequent flyer and just came back from Miami with TAP (MIA-LIS-MAD).
She said the service in Y was flawless. An old-fashioned legacy with hot meals, free wine, etc.


Q1) I was able to choose my seat, but that must have been because I'd selected the standard price or Economy Plus as they call it (ie not the Basic Hand Luggage only price where you are allocated a seat and have to pay to change your seat). Sometimes the BA Economy+ is cheaper than the Hand Luggage only fare by £2-3 on the MAD service

Q2) Last time I came back on IB A343, I had an aisle seat in the middle given to me. This time I had a window seat 42L so I was quite happy with that - the IFE screen didn't work, but I had 42K free so plugged the earphones in there instead. Flight fairly empty too, plenty of spare seats. But as it was the same booking as Q1, I probably could have moved seats at check in had I wanted too. Personally I always book LHR-MAD-LHR via BA website, they are cheaper than IB - obviously depending on the flights/days etc, but I can pick up a return for £88 with 767, A330, A340 and now 777s coming on the route too, it makes a nice change from the usual A320/B737s these days.

Pleased to hear that about TP, I've heard some people complain about their service, but I fancy trying them for a change and find out for myself.
 
phllax
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Re: Forbes: British Airways struggles with BoB

Mon Jan 16, 2017 7:14 pm

Cubsrule wrote:
Swadian wrote:
Remember that the US legacies experimented with charging for beverages in the 2009 timeframe. (I'm deliberately not saying North American because AC has had a somewhat difference experience.). Today, all offer free beverages on flights longer than about 350 km, and snack service has improved. It's a process, but perhaps BA will evolve similarly?


That's not entirely true. The only legacy carrier was USAirways, who experimented with charging for beverages less water for about 6 weeks in late 2009. It was a horrible failure, and they returned to complimentary soft drinks, coffee, tea, juice. I believe American Eagle also had a short trial period, which also failed. Spirit and Frontier, being an ULCC model, have both moved to charging.

I flew US transcons a lot when they switched to BOB. They problem they had from day 1 until almost the merger with AA was they would never get the correct amount of BOB stocked, especially on transcons. Some flights would have 5 sandwiches, for a 5-hour 188 seat airplane. This trend continued for years. They could never seem to get it right. This was unlike AA, DL and UA which had a greater variety of BOB and would fully stock enough.

United's switch to BOB was interesting, as the transcons retained meal service in Y for an additional 1-2 years before being axed for BOB. Routes like LAX/SFO - PHL, BWI, BOS, MCO, MIA, JFK retained it.

Then of course there was CO, who maintained "Meals at Mealtime" including on longer Express segments, until right before the merger was announced.
 
sevenair
Posts: 2960
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2001 7:18 am

Re: Forbes: British Airways struggles with BoB

Mon Jan 16, 2017 10:18 pm

In terms of lack of food it will take a good while for them to perfect the numbering. They won't load 100 if each just in case they run out as they'll simply get binned if they do not sell which is a huge waste. They will guesstimate and load accordingly. It's only when you have a lot of sales data can you perfect the loading of the fresh options.

From the airlines points of view it's better to sell out than it is to buy fresh options from the caterer only to throw them out when they do not sell.
 
Swadian
Posts: 562
Joined: Sun Sep 11, 2016 4:56 am

Re: Forbes: British Airways struggles with BoB

Mon Jan 16, 2017 10:44 pm

phllax wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:
Swadian wrote:
Remember that the US legacies experimented with charging for beverages in the 2009 timeframe. (I'm deliberately not saying North American because AC has had a somewhat difference experience.). Today, all offer free beverages on flights longer than about 350 km, and snack service has improved. It's a process, but perhaps BA will evolve similarly?


That's not entirely true. The only legacy carrier was USAirways, who experimented with charging for beverages less water for about 6 weeks in late 2009. It was a horrible failure, and they returned to complimentary soft drinks, coffee, tea, juice. I believe American Eagle also had a short trial period, which also failed. Spirit and Frontier, being an ULCC model, have both moved to charging.

I flew US transcons a lot when they switched to BOB. They problem they had from day 1 until almost the merger with AA was they would never get the correct amount of BOB stocked, especially on transcons. Some flights would have 5 sandwiches, for a 5-hour 188 seat airplane. This trend continued for years. They could never seem to get it right. This was unlike AA, DL and UA which had a greater variety of BOB and would fully stock enough.

United's switch to BOB was interesting, as the transcons retained meal service in Y for an additional 1-2 years before being axed for BOB. Routes like LAX/SFO - PHL, BWI, BOS, MCO, MIA, JFK retained it.

Then of course there was CO, who maintained "Meals at Mealtime" including on longer Express segments, until right before the merger was announced.


I think you have misquoted me. That was Cubsule's post, not mine.

Yes, that's my point about NA legacies compared to EU legacies. The EU legacies, in general, have worse service now than NA legacies, or are heading in that direction, especially considering the high-density configurations.
 
Bongodog1964
Posts: 3542
Joined: Wed Oct 18, 2006 6:29 am

Re: Forbes: British Airways struggles with BoB

Mon Jan 16, 2017 11:20 pm

sevenair wrote:
In terms of lack of food it will take a good while for them to perfect the numbering. They won't load 100 if each just in case they run out as they'll simply get binned if they do not sell which is a huge waste. They will guesstimate and load accordingly. It's only when you have a lot of sales data can you perfect the loading of the fresh options.

From the airlines points of view it's better to sell out than it is to buy fresh options from the caterer only to throw them out when they do not sell.


The perishable items will have a 2 or 3 day shelf life, in addition the profit margin is such that a fair degree of wastage will always be acceptable. No food business expects to sell out. If they do, they have undercatered.
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 14721
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

Re: Forbes: British Airways struggles with BoB

Tue Jan 17, 2017 2:41 pm

phllax wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:
Remember that the US legacies experimented with charging for beverages in the 2009 timeframe. (I'm deliberately not saying North American because AC has had a somewhat difference experience.). Today, all offer free beverages on flights longer than about 350 km, and snack service has improved. It's a process, but perhaps BA will evolve similarly?


That's not entirely true. The only legacy carrier was USAirways, who experimented with charging for beverages less water for about 6 weeks in late 2009. It was a horrible failure, and they returned to complimentary soft drinks, coffee, tea, juice. I believe American Eagle also had a short trial period, which also failed. Spirit and Frontier, being an ULCC model, have both moved to charging.

I flew US transcons a lot when they switched to BOB. They problem they had from day 1 until almost the merger with AA was they would never get the correct amount of BOB stocked, especially on transcons. Some flights would have 5 sandwiches, for a 5-hour 188 seat airplane. This trend continued for years. They could never seem to get it right. This was unlike AA, DL and UA which had a greater variety of BOB and would fully stock enough.

United's switch to BOB was interesting, as the transcons retained meal service in Y for an additional 1-2 years before being axed for BOB. Routes like LAX/SFO - PHL, BWI, BOS, MCO, MIA, JFK retained it.

Then of course there was CO, who maintained "Meals at Mealtime" including on longer Express segments, until right before the merger was announced.


Perhaps we are making the same point two different ways. The US legacies (as a group) experimented with BOB quite a bit before settling in to a broadly similar program. Perhaps the experience in Europe will ultimately be similar, but we are not there yet.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
sevenair
Posts: 2960
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2001 7:18 am

Re: Forbes: British Airways struggles with BoB

Tue Jan 17, 2017 9:48 pm

Bongodog1964 wrote:
sevenair wrote:
In terms of lack of food it will take a good while for them to perfect the numbering. They won't load 100 if each just in case they run out as they'll simply get binned if they do not sell which is a huge waste. They will guesstimate and load accordingly. It's only when you have a lot of sales data can you perfect the loading of the fresh options.

From the airlines points of view it's better to sell out than it is to buy fresh options from the caterer only to throw them out when they do not sell.


The perishable items will have a 2 or 3 day shelf life, in addition the profit margin is such that a fair degree of wastage will always be acceptable. No food business expects to sell out. If they do, they have undercatered.


All easyJet fresh options are loaded once with unsold items discarded. They are replenished twice a day and have a shelf life of that day only. Crew two (late shift) cannot sell crew one's (early shift) fresh options. They are all destroyed. I'd imagine BA would be similar.
 
richcandy
Posts: 754
Joined: Sun Aug 12, 2001 4:49 pm

Re: Forbes: British Airways struggles with BoB

Mon Jan 23, 2017 8:29 am

My parents flew BHD-LHR last Saturday on a 1210 departure. By the time the crew got to row 9, where my parents were seated they were sold out of sandwiches. My farther is....how shall I say this....A large over weight Ulsterman. Who values his food. He couldn't understand how they could run out of food on a lunch time flight, and more so how they could run out so quickly.

It wasn't the money, they were expecting to pay, they fly EZY and BE not often but a few times a year. It was just the fact that they ran out. They hadn't flow BA in a while and now believe that EZY are much better.
 
tonystan
Posts: 1712
Joined: Sat Jan 07, 2006 7:39 am

Re: Forbes: British Airways struggles with BoB

Mon Jan 23, 2017 10:59 am

richcandy wrote:
My parents flew BHD-LHR last Saturday on a 1210 departure. By the time the crew got to row 9, where my parents were seated they were sold out of sandwiches. My farther is....how shall I say this....A large over weight Ulsterman. Who values his food. He couldn't understand how they could run out of food on a lunch time flight, and more so how they could run out so quickly.

It wasn't the money, they were expecting to pay, they fly EZY and BE not often but a few times a year. It was just the fact that they ran out. They hadn't flow BA in a while and now believe that EZY are much better.


Sadly it has become clear to many that the BA management attitude to BOB was very much "were BA, people won't want to pay for food so we won't need to load much of it"!

Horrible attitude to have towards customers but sadly that is the way of it in BA nowadays.
My views are my own and do not reflect any other person or organisation.
 
Ryanair01
Posts: 485
Joined: Fri Dec 27, 2013 9:27 pm

Re: Forbes: British Airways struggles with BoB

Mon Jan 23, 2017 11:15 am

I suspect BA is trying to minimise waste, as like any cafe or restaurant a certain amount of produce gets left over and has to be thrown away. That is very costly. It is quite a difficult art to work out what to order, as they gain experience they'll develop data which will help them model what to load. However that will take time to build up and in the mean time there will be plenty of situations where way too much and way too little is loaded.
 
LHRFlyer
Posts: 1041
Joined: Sun Apr 11, 2010 12:50 pm

Re: Forbes: British Airways struggles with BoB

Mon Jan 23, 2017 11:24 am

Loadings have been adjusted since BOB launched.

You don't go to all the trouble of setting up a deal with a partner like Marks & Spencer if you're not intent on making it work.

"BA doesn't care and just wants people to starve" is all a bit over dramatic.
 
Ryanair01
Posts: 485
Joined: Fri Dec 27, 2013 9:27 pm

Re: Forbes: British Airways struggles with BoB

Mon Jan 23, 2017 11:27 am

LHRFlyer wrote:
Loadings have been adjusted since BOB launched.

You don't go to all the trouble of setting up a deal with a partner like Marks & Spencer if you're not intent on making it work.

"BA doesn't care and just wants people to starve" is all a bit over dramatic.


I suspect the loadings will be adjusted a lot until everybody figures out what works. Agreed a lot of the reaction is a bit melodramatic.
 
luftaom
Posts: 782
Joined: Thu May 20, 1999 4:29 pm

Re: Forbes: British Airways struggles with BoB

Mon Jan 23, 2017 11:37 am

My LHR-HAJ on Friday night and HAJ-LHR on Sunday night seemed to work just fine.
The flight out had ~50% load and the flight back >90%.
They first passed through asking if there were any orders for hot sandwiches and then made their way through the cabin selling from the cart. It was much like the way AA, Virgin Australia, Jetstar (Australia and Asia) and Ryanair do it (which are my only comparisons).
My unscientific assessment was that about 1 in 5 or 1 in 6 bought something.
airliners.net's passenger - simultaneously connecting and flying direct.
 
richcandy
Posts: 754
Joined: Sun Aug 12, 2001 4:49 pm

Re: Forbes: British Airways struggles with BoB

Mon Jan 23, 2017 12:12 pm

luftaom wrote:
My LHR-HAJ on Friday night and HAJ-LHR on Sunday night seemed to work just fine.
The flight out had ~50% load and the flight back >90%.
They first passed through asking if there were any orders for hot sandwiches and then made their way through the cabin selling from the cart. It was much like the way AA, Virgin Australia, Jetstar (Australia and Asia) and Ryanair do it (which are my only comparisons).
My unscientific assessment was that about 1 in 5 or 1 in 6 bought something.


I don't know all the details and I don't know how BA stock their aircraft. However would it not be more logical to stock the aircraft so that they run out of food at the end of the day, rather than in the middle of the day? I might be wrong but are people not more likely to buy food at meal times than at night?

No one is going to starve because there wasn't an M&S sandwich available to buy and I am sure BA will get better at this.
 
frmrCapCadet
Posts: 4520
Joined: Thu May 29, 2008 8:24 pm

Re: Forbes: British Airways struggles with BoB

Mon Jan 23, 2017 3:11 pm

It would not be difficult to have a supply of foods with a longer shelf life for back-ups.
Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
 
ikramerica
Posts: 15100
Joined: Mon May 23, 2005 9:33 am

Re: Forbes: British Airways struggles with BoB

Mon Jan 23, 2017 5:44 pm

BA should remember it's a lot harder to repair your reputation than it is to maintain it.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
shankly
Posts: 1404
Joined: Tue Jan 11, 2000 10:42 pm

Re: Forbes: British Airways struggles with BoB

Mon Jan 23, 2017 6:47 pm

ikramerica wrote:
BA should remember it's a lot harder to repair your reputation than it is to maintain it.

BA has survived the Laker price fixing scandal, the Virgin price fixing scandal, the Cargo price fixing scandal, World Tails, Concorde grounding, the T5 opening cock up, spying on its own staff and multiple strikes

Ikra, they are not going to be grounded by an egg and cress sandwich.....
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