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legacyins
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Re: Air India to Start Delhi to Washington DC non stop from July 2017

Tue Jan 17, 2017 6:24 pm

clrd4t8koff wrote:
SFOA380 wrote:
legacyins wrote:


Exactly... Thank you for digging this up... this is exactly what DFW has to do to get more Int'l service. The big O&D airports rarely need to do this.


Well maybe if SFO did it they wouldn't be seeing EY drop service to 3x weekly.


SFO, like most airports, have an incentive program. SFO waves landing fees for two years and discounts Office space. EY will be back to daily in the Fall. If this route was a total failure they would have pulled the route.
 
blacksoviet
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Re: Air India to Start Delhi to Washington DC non stop from July 2017

Tue Jan 17, 2017 8:02 pm

IrishAyes wrote:
DaufuskieGuy wrote:
dcaviation wrote:

No, UA never flew from IAD to India.

Air India did few years ago via JFK.



uh, they still fly from JFK. and EWR. UA used to fly a 744 non-stop ORD DEL back in the late 90s, but never from IAD.


No, UA did not fly a 744 nonstop from ORD to DEL. It was proposed in early 2001 for launch in late 2001, but 9/11 killed the route before it even commenced.

UA was, however, operating its RTW to DEL using a 744, which went LAX-IAD-LHR-DEL-HKG and reverse, on UA 1/2.

Why does UA no longer offer round-the-world service on the queen of the skies? They have enough extra 744 frames available.
 
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SFOA380
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Re: Air India to Start Delhi to Washington DC non stop from July 2017

Tue Jan 17, 2017 8:07 pm

legacyins wrote:
clrd4t8koff wrote:
SFOA380 wrote:

Exactly... Thank you for digging this up... this is exactly what DFW has to do to get more Int'l service. The big O&D airports rarely need to do this.


Well maybe if SFO did it they wouldn't be seeing EY drop service to 3x weekly.


SFO, like most airports, have an incentive program. SFO waves landing fees for two years and discounts Office space. EY will be back to daily in the Fall. If this route was a total failure they would have pulled the route.


Not nearly as rich as what DFW needs to do to attract service...
 
DaufuskieGuy
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Re: Air India to Start Delhi to Washington DC non stop from July 2017

Tue Jan 17, 2017 8:12 pm

blacksoviet wrote:
IrishAyes wrote:
DaufuskieGuy wrote:


uh, they still fly from JFK. and EWR. UA used to fly a 744 non-stop ORD DEL back in the late 90s, but never from IAD.


No, UA did not fly a 744 nonstop from ORD to DEL. It was proposed in early 2001 for launch in late 2001, but 9/11 killed the route before it even commenced.

UA was, however, operating its RTW to DEL using a 744, which went LAX-IAD-LHR-DEL-HKG and reverse, on UA 1/2.

Why does UA no longer offer round-the-world service on the queen of the skies? They have enough extra 744 frames available.


IIRC RTW service was not profitable, and the 744s are all gone this year anyway.
 
747megatop
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Re: Air India to Start Delhi to Washington DC non stop from July 2017

Tue Jan 17, 2017 8:15 pm

readytotaxi wrote:
usflyer123 wrote:
Is it going to be a 777-300ER(if it has the range?) or 200LR?

Depends which one has the most parts in place. :rotfl:

Psst..rumor has it that Anthony Bourdain is gearing up for filming the next season of Parts Unknown in IAD this summer. On a more serious note though...at least they aren't going to the museum to fetch parts like our military does - http://www.popularmechanics.com/militar ... -a-museum/ I know that this is a civil aviation forum but i just could not resist from posting that link since we are on the topic of borrowing parts from other planes.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Air India to Start Delhi to Washington DC non stop from July 2017

Tue Jan 17, 2017 8:17 pm

seabosdca wrote:
Well, now that you mention it... they would probably have saved quite a bit of money had they done what every other airline with excess capacity of newish frames does, and either 1) lease the frames out to another airline or 2) kept flying the frames at reduced utilization. But instead they decided to let two of them rot, and then had to refurbish them at considerable expense.

You are arguing in vaccum.
Why AI kept 3 x B77Ls
1) B77L are niche plane, limited resale market
2) AI managed to sell 5/8 to EY
3) AI was taking B787 deliveries, supposed to be fuel efficient if and when they fly
4) There were no potential(even cost brake even) ULH routes.
5) Prior to B787 deliveries it was using these to Japan.
Mothball (vs) Variable Usage
If you really care about cost and resale value you mothball your surplus capacity. You want to showoff or your lessor won't allow you to mothball, go with variable usage option, which is more expensive.

AIESL in-house reactivated these planes, there was no considerable expense. That is a myth.

I guess you are call the dirt as rot. Missing engines,avionics and removable control surfaces is a standard long term storage practice. If you store a surplus frame at one of the VCV long term storage providers, they do exact same thing. Covering windows with mylar and presentation are optional.

seabosdca wrote:
Two theories here: 1) that AI's 787s were somehow inexplicably worse than other 787s in the same production block or even in earlier blocks (ANA's LN 7-9 and "terrible teens"; or 2) that AI for whatever reason was not driven to fix the issues in a timely manner. I find one more believable than the other..

You can interpret whichever way you want, that doesn't change the reality. Some frames from same time frame are not even delivered yet. Looks like general consensus is up to LN99 are iffy.
Who else had
-Central wing box repairs.
-Both bad engines need overhaul
-Both engines had fault in the accessory gearbox and need to grounded (of the total 8 bad GEnX engines 2 were on ONE AI 787)
-Had an un-contained engine failure before delivery
-Hydraulic line rupture and structural damage before delivery
-3 FMCs failure
-RAT disintegrated during taxi
-Constant windshield cracks
-Constant spoiler actuator failures
-Constant software glitches
Which of the above can you contribute to AI mx practices?

seabosdca wrote:
Ethiopian, China Southern, ANA, JAL and United all have frames from the same block. All of them had to do some updates. All of them finished the updates in a matter of less than a week. AI, on the other hand, took twice as long to do the updates as Ethiopian took to repair an aircraft (which also happened to be from the same block) that got mangled by fire.

Small fire repair took 6 months, but 11 months for central wing box fix is out of ordinary!!!
Each GEnX/GE90 engine overhaul takes 2-3 months at an AI facility. Six months for both is normal.
All posts are just opinions.
 
clrd4t8koff
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Re: Air India to Start Delhi to Washington DC non stop from July 2017

Tue Jan 17, 2017 9:18 pm

SFOA380 wrote:
legacyins wrote:
clrd4t8koff wrote:

Well maybe if SFO did it they wouldn't be seeing EY drop service to 3x weekly.


SFO, like most airports, have an incentive program. SFO waves landing fees for two years and discounts Office space. EY will be back to daily in the Fall. If this route was a total failure they would have pulled the route.


Not nearly as rich as what DFW needs to do to attract service...


I'm not sure what your end game is here, but it appears you're determined to belittle DFW and protect your precious SFO. Whatever it is it's rather childish to keep insinuating DFW can only attract international service with hefty incentives.

DFW is a very different market and has different challenges than SFO. DFW is the global headquarters for the worlds largest airline. SFO is a hub, and therefor can attract a variety of airlines. SFO has a lot of international service, but so does DFW, just primarily on AA. There's lots of international destinations DFW has that SFO doesn't and vice versa.
 
clrd4t8koff
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Re: Air India to Start Delhi to Washington DC non stop from July 2017

Tue Jan 17, 2017 9:25 pm

legacyins wrote:
clrd4t8koff wrote:
SFOA380 wrote:

Exactly... Thank you for digging this up... this is exactly what DFW has to do to get more Int'l service. The big O&D airports rarely need to do this.


Well maybe if SFO did it they wouldn't be seeing EY drop service to 3x weekly.


SFO, like most airports, have an incentive program. SFO waves landing fees for two years and discounts Office space. EY will be back to daily in the Fall. If this route was a total failure they would have pulled the route.


I don't think anyone has said this route was a total failure. If it was they would have axed it all together like they just did with GRU, instead it went to 3x weekly.

However, of all the markets to pull a 77L from it's pretty telling that SFO appears to be the weakest as it's the one that got reduced to free up aircraft to support the increase at DFW. So, no, not a total disaster, but not a huge success either apparently.
 
simpv
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Re: Air India to Start Delhi to Washington DC non stop from July 2017

Tue Jan 17, 2017 9:40 pm

clrd4t8koff wrote:
legacyins wrote:
clrd4t8koff wrote:

Well maybe if SFO did it they wouldn't be seeing EY drop service to 3x weekly.


SFO, like most airports, have an incentive program. SFO waves landing fees for two years and discounts Office space. EY will be back to daily in the Fall. If this route was a total failure they would have pulled the route.


I don't think anyone has said this route was a total failure. If it was they would have axed it all together like they just did with GRU, instead it went to 3x weekly.

However, of all the markets to pull a 77L from it's pretty telling that SFO appears to be the weakest as it's the one that got reduced to free up aircraft to support the increase at DFW. So, no, not a total disaster, but not a huge success either apparently.


I think that's largely right. I've always been surprised that QR has never started SFO, while it has flights to BOS/ATL/DFW/IAH/etc, but it does signal that for some reason the SFO-Middle East/India market is either well covered or that we're overestimating demand.

Anyway, back on topic, I'm glad that AI has finally made some moves to regain international traffic and expand its network. I hope we see more of these types of moves soon (along with an upgraded cabin...).
 
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Irehdna
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Re: Air India to Start Delhi to Washington DC non stop from July 2017

Tue Jan 17, 2017 9:53 pm

According to a French site , the start date is 17 July, 2017. http://www.air-journal.fr/2017-01-17-air-india-bientot-a-washington-et-copenhague-5175891.html

No news on plane type (LR v ER) or schedule yet.
Last edited by Irehdna on Tue Jan 17, 2017 10:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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SFOA380
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Re: Air India to Start Delhi to Washington DC non stop from July 2017

Tue Jan 17, 2017 10:05 pm

clrd4t8koff wrote:
SFOA380 wrote:
legacyins wrote:

SFO, like most airports, have an incentive program. SFO waves landing fees for two years and discounts Office space. EY will be back to daily in the Fall. If this route was a total failure they would have pulled the route.


Not nearly as rich as what DFW needs to do to attract service...


I'm not sure what your end game is here, but it appears you're determined to belittle DFW and protect your precious SFO. Whatever it is it's rather childish to keep insinuating DFW can only attract international service with hefty incentives.

DFW is a very different market and has different challenges than SFO. DFW is the global headquarters for the worlds largest airline. SFO is a hub, and therefor can attract a variety of airlines. SFO has a lot of international service, but so does DFW, just primarily on AA. There's lots of international destinations DFW has that SFO doesn't and vice versa.


Relax! In your rant you neglected to point out that my assertion is correct. I have no "end-game", just pointing out that there is a difference. I lived in Dallas and participated in the Chamber of Commerce for 7 years and I know what drives them. Although this isn't an airport function per se, the overall growth objective is the same. Growth is Dallas does not happen organically like it does in SF, LA, NYC or most other places. It happens because already established companies looking to save a buck are incented to move (or grow) there. That's the unemotional reality. Same as why new carriers start service there because from an O&D standpoint DFW isn't in the same league...
 
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Re: Air India to Start Delhi to Washington DC non stop from July 2017

Tue Jan 17, 2017 10:11 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
Why AI kept 3 x B77Ls
1) B77L are niche plane, limited resale market
2) AI managed to sell 5/8 to EY
3) AI was taking B787 deliveries, supposed to be fuel efficient if and when they fly
4) There were no potential(even cost brake even) ULH routes.
5) Prior to B787 deliveries it was using these to Japan.


AI decided to "mothball" the two last 77L well before the sale of the first five to EY. And EY/AI were well along in negotiations for AI to first sell and then lease the other three, but apparently the good old GOI vetoed that.

The best examples of carriers with excess ULH capacity were EK and EY. Both had surplus A340-500 that were too expensive to use on ULH. Both used them at low utilization on shorter routes where the fuel consumption delta was less expensive, and eventually disposed of the fleet by sale or return to lessor. Neither left partially disassembled A340-500 frames sitting around their hub.

Mothball (vs) Variable UsageIf you really care about cost and resale value you mothball your surplus capacity.


Airlines disagree. No other large airline in the world does this with new widebodies. All of the others find it less expensive to sublease or fly them. If AI had mothballed old 744 instead of brand-new 777 you might have a point.

AIESL in-house reactivated these planes, there was no considerable expense. That is a myth.

I guess you are call the dirt as rot. Missing engines,avionics and removable control surfaces is a standard long term storage practice. If you store a surplus frame at one of the VCV long term storage providers, they do exact same thing. Covering windows with mylar and presentation are optional.


Those providers are in the desert, where the air is dry and clean, for a reason. Mumbai is hot and humid with a lot of corrosive stuff in the air. Long-term storage at BOM would for sure have led to corrosion and rotten rubber/plastic parts. Just as a climatic matter, I'm sure that ALG and ALH needed a fair number of new parts before being returned to service. And I seem to remember you posting about difficulties getting the parts for ALH.

Looks like general consensus is up to LN99 are iffy.


I think the "it's all good" block started with LN 90.

And yet there have been no extended AOGs at all from earlier frames except for AI (and ET's grilled aircraft).

Which of the above can you contribute to AI mx practices?


Many of those, especially failing windshields, spoiler actuators, and software squawks, were experienced en masse by other early 787 operators. None of the others had to keep two aircraft AOG for almost a year.

This is the first I've heard of "central wing box repairs." I assume this must be a reference to LN 46 (VT-ANI), the first Charleston-built frame. What was wrong, and what had to be repaired?
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Air India to Start Delhi to Washington DC non stop from July 2017

Tue Jan 17, 2017 10:51 pm

seabosdca wrote:
The best examples of carriers with excess ULH capacity were EK ... Both had surplus A340-500 that were too expensive to use on ULH. Both used them at low utilization on shorter routes where the fuel consumption delta was less expensive, and eventually disposed of the fleet by sale or return to lessor. Neither left partially disassembled A340-500 frames sitting around their hub.

Funny you mention that. I didn't want to bring up off-topic. Go check the A330s' condition at DWC. You will be surprised. Don't try to take pictures.

seabosdca wrote:
Airlines disagree. No other large airline in the world does this with new widebodies. All of the others find it less expensive to sublease or fly them. If AI had mothballed old 744 instead of brand-new 777 you might have a point.

Other than at some State Owned Airlines Owner never orders planes, Management orders planes per forecast.

If Emir ordered all these planes and Timothy having trouble with excess capacity, one could show some sympathy. If Timothy himself ordered....

seabosdca wrote:
Those providers are in the desert, where the air is dry and clean, for a reason. Mumbai is hot and humid with a lot of corrosive stuff in the air. Long-term storage at BOM would for sure have led to corrosion and rotten rubber/plastic parts. Just as a climatic matter, I'm sure that ALG and ALH needed a fair number of new parts before being returned to service. And I seem to remember you posting about difficulties getting the parts for ALH.

Just do a crude math. An in-service aircraft back at sea side base getting serviced with doors open for 8 hrs a day gets lot more humidity inside the cabin than a mothballed aircraft with doors closed. B777 is not prone to corrosion like older wide bodies.


seabosdca wrote:
Many of those, especially failing windshields, spoiler actuators, and software squawks, were experienced en masse by other early 787 operators. None of the others had to keep two aircraft AOG for almost a year.

This is the first I've heard of "central wing box repairs." I assume this must be a reference to LN 46 (VT-ANI), the first Charleston-built frame. What was wrong, and what had to be repaired?


You are quoting SAME three planes ANI-(Wingbox-11 months) (do your own research), AND/ANH-(Engine overhaul-6+ months) again and again to nullify issues with all other 18 half turds. Not a solid argument.
All posts are just opinions.
 
clrd4t8koff
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Re: Air India to Start Delhi to Washington DC non stop from July 2017

Thu Feb 02, 2017 11:52 pm

SFOA380 wrote:
legacyins wrote:
clrd4t8koff wrote:

SFOA380 - do you have a source for this? What kind of incentives did DFW provide EY to go daily on the route?


The airline will receive an estimated $1.7 million in incentives from the airport under a program meant to increase international service at DFW. The incentive program does not involve taxpayer dollars.


http://www.dallasnews.com/business/airl ... -next-year


Exactly... Thank you for digging this up... this is exactly what DFW has to do to get more Int'l service. The big O&D airports rarely need to do this.


I'd say it's pretty much a done deal that EY will not be returning to daily @ SFO:

Etihad halts USA expansion plans
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... row-in-u-s
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Air India to Start Delhi to Washington DC non stop from July 2017

Fri Feb 03, 2017 12:14 am

Wow... AI is getting some mojo. They have improved tremendously. But they do need to be looking out for 6E. Oh, not for ULH, but AI needs feed for even ULH.

There is no defending AI prior maintenance practices. Any basic game theory shows the parked long term frame were a reaction, not a plan. The planes lost tremendous value parked. But now we're seeing a managed airline. I'm still waiting for an annual profit (operating doesn't count), but there is a pulse.

The next great market will be India to China. I'll be curious how AI adapts considering the NEO has the range.

Lightsaber
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legacyins
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Re: Air India to Start Delhi to Washington DC non stop from July 2017

Fri Feb 03, 2017 12:46 am

clrd4t8koff wrote:
SFOA380 wrote:
legacyins wrote:


Exactly... Thank you for digging this up... this is exactly what DFW has to do to get more Int'l service. The big O&D airports rarely need to do this.


I'd say it's pretty much a done deal that EY will not be returning to daily @ SFO:

Etihad halts USA expansion plans
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... row-in-u-s


Ah, no. The article states they are not expanding to any other cities in the US. As I stated before, SFO will be back to daily in the Fall, per EY at SFO. Sorry to bust your bubble.
 
clrd4t8koff
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Re: Air India to Start Delhi to Washington DC non stop from July 2017

Fri Feb 03, 2017 1:13 am

legacyins wrote:
clrd4t8koff wrote:
SFOA380 wrote:

Exactly... Thank you for digging this up... this is exactly what DFW has to do to get more Int'l service. The big O&D airports rarely need to do this.


I'd say it's pretty much a done deal that EY will not be returning to daily @ SFO:

Etihad halts USA expansion plans
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... row-in-u-s


Ah, no. The article states they are not expanding to any other cities in the US. As I stated before, SFO will be back to daily in the Fall, per EY at SFO. Sorry to bust your bubble.


You're not bursting my bubble, I'm not the one putting out rumors from SFO gate agents. What does "as per EY at SFO even mean?" Do you work there? Do you sleep with someone who does? Only bubble to burst is yours.
 
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legacyins
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Re: Air India to Start Delhi to Washington DC non stop from July 2017

Fri Feb 03, 2017 1:21 am

clrd4t8koff wrote:
legacyins wrote:
clrd4t8koff wrote:

I'd say it's pretty much a done deal that EY will not be returning to daily @ SFO:

Etihad halts USA expansion plans
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... row-in-u-s


Ah, no. The article states they are not expanding to any other cities in the US. As I stated before, SFO will be back to daily in the Fall, per EY at SFO. Sorry to bust your bubble.


You're not bursting my bubble, I'm not the one putting out rumors from SFO gate agents. What does "as per EY at SFO even mean?" Do you work there? Do you sleep with someone who does? Only bubble to burst is yours.


Look at My screen name and figure it out, if you can. But, one thing I got of the article was they won't be expanding to BOS.
 
Gr8Circle
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Re: Air India to Start Delhi to Washington DC non stop from July 2017

Fri Feb 03, 2017 2:00 am

readytotaxi wrote:
usflyer123 wrote:
Is it going to be a 777-300ER(if it has the range?) or 200LR?

Depends which one has the most parts in place. :rotfl:


You seem to be part of the AI bashers brigade, who probably have never even seen an AI plane in your life and just base your comments on a.net threads......
 
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BawliBooch
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Re: Air India to Start Delhi to Washington DC non stop from July 2017

Fri Feb 03, 2017 3:24 am

A lot of noise is being made about Air India's maintenance practices. And based on what? A shoddily written hatchet-job by an out-of-work blogger fishing for a new career. Need a big eyeball grabbing story on aviation to promote my blog! Cant write on Indigo or SpiceJet because, well, they pay for my booze! So let me write on Air India - everybody's favorite whipping boy! Their PR people cant afford the '69 Glennfiddich mehn!

Post-merger, the pmIC management team managed to get the upper hand in the merged airline - and thank god for that. But it pissed of quite a few of the old foxes in pm-AI based in Bombay. "Us Bawa's dont take orders from those Punjabi's b***c***ds mehn!"

That whole pathetic blog was based on pictures leaked by a disgruntled maintenance guy pissed off by the management changes post merger of AI with IC. And pictures dont tell the whole story. I have some interesting pictures from a Southwest maintenance hangar - perhaps I should launch my new blog with a hatchet job on Southwest's dangerous maintenance practices? And ANET can latch on to that for eons after that! Come on now!

seabosdca wrote:
Well, now that you mention it... they would probably have saved quite a bit of money had they done what every other airline with excess capacity of newish frames does, and either 1) lease the frames out to another airline or 2) kept flying the frames at reduced utilization. But instead they decided to let two of them rot, and then had to refurbish them at considerable expense.

8 77L's were ordered for the ULH routes - a sound decision at the time. But with oil crossing $100, there was no way to make the planes work on most routes planned.

1. Lease the frames to another airline? Not like they didnt try! It was a 4 year saga! But lease rentals being offered were not even covering for the Loan installments for the frame. AI found a better use for the 77L's subbing for 77W's on their network.

The 2 frames that were grounded needed expensive parts which they couldnt immediately afford. The 111 aircraft they were made to order was proving to be a crippling debt-burden for a carrier being attacked by the ME3 on one side and the LCC's on the bottom end (for domestic). To make matters worse, the 787's which were meant to replace the A310/300 were delayed, forcing Air India to deploy the A321's ordered for domestic metro routes on these regional routes to DXB/BKK/SIN etc.

Things only started improving once the 787's actually started arriving on property.

seabosdca wrote:
Two theories here: 1) that AI's 787s were somehow inexplicably worse than other 787s in the same production block or even in earlier blocks (ANA's LN 7-9 and "terrible teens"; or 2) that AI for whatever reason was not driven to fix the issues in a timely manner. I find one more believable than the other.

Its been years since I worked on that story, but the issue as I understand it is that Air India did not sign a spares & support agreement - or signed a weak one. So when one of the 787's went in for a scheduled AD fix, the parts werent available. In another case, the parts took 4 months to arrive. AI took the (perhaps questionable) decision to use this grounded 787 for parts to keep the rest of the fleet flying (back then around 8-10 flying). Boeing washed their hands off the issue and asked AI to negotiate directly with the suppliers.

Most airlines have these support issues tied to the purchase contract. Apparently this didnt happen in AI's case. The minister who forced this deal through, is a close school-friend of the Boeing India chief which perhaps had something to do with it.
Mr.Kapoor's favorite poodle!
 
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BawliBooch
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Re: Air India to Start Delhi to Washington DC non stop from July 2017

Fri Feb 03, 2017 3:28 am

We got sidetracked by that snide commentary about AI's maintenance.

To get back to the topic, I think AI needs a sub-fleet of around 12 788 sized widebodies for regional work. Perhaps when things improve, AI could induct 10 787-9's and use them to upgrade select existing 788 routes. An equal number of 788's could be reconfigured for regional 2-6 hours flights - perhaps 30 Regional-J + 260Y?
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dtw2hyd
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Re: Air India to Start Delhi to Washington DC non stop from July 2017

Fri Feb 03, 2017 3:54 am

BawliBooch wrote:
the issue as I understand it is that Air India did not sign a spares & support agreement - or signed a weak one. So when one of the 787's went in for a scheduled AD fix, the parts werent available. In another case, the parts took 4 months to arrive. AI took the (perhaps questionable) decision to use this grounded 787 for parts to keep the rest of the fleet flying (back then around 8-10 flying). Boeing washed their hands off the issue and asked AI to negotiate directly with the suppliers.


AI had standard 4 year warranty agreement like everyone else, but without any compensation clause. So Boeing prioritized warranty supplies to customers with compensation clause. With never ending component failures AI always was back in the queue.

Allegedly, most knew ANI is going to be AOG for a while, so the sales guy told to harvest rather than supplying spares which were scarce because supply chain couldn't keep up with failures. But same time bloggers and fanboys were used to publicize AI couldn't buy spares. That's why AIESL stick it back to him by rejecting 788 to 789 and 77W to 737MAX swaps.

Couple more were AOG because AI didn't buy spare GEnX engines, didn't expect brand new engines needed major overhaul so early. 2 months per GE90/GEnX engine is standard overhaul time. First few took more time for get engineers trained and certified.

Negotiating direct support contract with supplier is a common practice for any major airline and AI already had direct contracts with most vendors and signed B788 asset management contract with Rockwell Collins. Nothing could overcome 788 design and supply chain issues.

Small operators or someone with small sub fleet sign Gold Care with Boeing, like Norwegian. Luckily DY had only 3-5, but AI has to deal with at least 12 bad builds of initial 21 deliveries.
All posts are just opinions.
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: Air India to Start Delhi to Washington DC non stop from July 2017

Fri Feb 03, 2017 6:26 am

anshabhi wrote:
However the problem with this is.. what will happen when its maintenance time for any of the B77L.

Block seats on a subbed 77W.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
clrd4t8koff
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Re: Air India to Start Delhi to Washington DC non stop from July 2017

Fri Feb 03, 2017 12:13 pm

legacyins wrote:
clrd4t8koff wrote:
legacyins wrote:

Ah, no. The article states they are not expanding to any other cities in the US. As I stated before, SFO will be back to daily in the Fall, per EY at SFO. Sorry to bust your bubble.


You're not bursting my bubble, I'm not the one putting out rumors from SFO gate agents. What does "as per EY at SFO even mean?" Do you work there? Do you sleep with someone who does? Only bubble to burst is yours.


Look at My screen name and figure it out, if you can. But, one thing I got of the article was they won't be expanding to BOS.


I don't think anyone ever intimated or suggested they would. But nice try at deflecting your unsubstantiated rumor.
 
dcaviation
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Re: Air India to Start Delhi to Washington DC non stop from July 2017

Fri Feb 03, 2017 12:42 pm

BawliBooch wrote:
A lot of noise is being made about Air India's maintenance practices. And based on what? A shoddily written hatchet-job by an out-of-work blogger fishing for a new career. Need a big eyeball grabbing story on aviation to promote my blog! Cant write on Indigo or SpiceJet because, well, they pay for my booze! So let me write on Air India - everybody's favorite whipping boy! Their PR people cant afford the '69 Glennfiddich mehn!


But the bashing of Boeing by AI certainly did not help. Every week one aircraft type was bad. One day 77W, another day 77L, then B787.
 
anshabhi
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Re: Air India to Start Delhi to Washington DC non stop from July 2017

Fri Feb 03, 2017 12:47 pm

[quote="dcaviation]
But the bashing of Boeing by AI certainly did not help. Every week one aircraft type was bad. One day 77W, another day 77L, then B787.[/quote]
That was not the case for at least past 2 years (or when Boeing realized that it has lost badly to Airbus in India)
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Air India to Start Delhi to Washington DC non stop from July 2017

Fri Feb 03, 2017 2:21 pm

dcaviation wrote:
BawliBooch wrote:
A lot of noise is being made about Air India's maintenance practices. And based on what? A shoddily written hatchet-job by an out-of-work blogger fishing for a new career. Need a big eyeball grabbing story on aviation to promote my blog! Cant write on Indigo or SpiceJet because, well, they pay for my booze! So let me write on Air India - everybody's favorite whipping boy! Their PR people cant afford the '69 Glennfiddich mehn!


But the bashing of Boeing by AI certainly did not help. Every week one aircraft type was bad. One day 77W, another day 77L, then B787.


A B77L purchased when oil was $48/bbl is a gas guzzler when oil is $100/bbl. Do you want AI to operate(variable usage/virtual park) B77Ls incurring more losses just to appease blogger community or mothball and reactivate when market conditions got better. AI proved it made the right decision, unlike the variable usage/virtual parking drama going on across Arabian Sea right now..

And how is B77L economics driven grounding related to B788 bad build quality forced grounding.
All posts are just opinions.
 
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BawliBooch
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Re: Air India to Start Delhi to Washington DC non stop from July 2017

Fri Feb 03, 2017 2:45 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
A B77L purchased when oil was $48/bbl is a gas guzzler when oil is $100/bbl. Do you want AI to operate(variable usage/virtual park) B77Ls incurring more losses just to appease blogger community or mothball and reactivate when market conditions got better. AI proved it made the right decision, unlike the variable usage/virtual parking drama going on across Arabian Sea right now..

And how is B77L economics driven grounding related to B788 bad build quality forced grounding.


I think what @dcaviation sir is asking is why Air India had to go public with their complaints about Boeing!?

That was totally uncalled for! If you buy a faulty washing machine, and the manufacturer starts being gamey, do you go out to the media and rant on twitter to complain about Whirlpool?
Mr.Kapoor's favorite poodle!
 
Flightsimboy
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Re: Air India to Start Delhi to Washington DC non stop from July 2017

Fri Feb 03, 2017 2:46 pm

Will they ever come back to YYZ!!
LAX772LR - "Answer to goofy question:" in response to my question about the B737-MAX8 being grounded. 48 hours later all B737-MAX8 grounded worldwide. Go figure!!
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Air India to Start Delhi to Washington DC non stop from July 2017

Fri Feb 03, 2017 3:20 pm

BawliBooch wrote:
I think what @dcaviation sir is asking is why Air India had to go public with their complaints about Boeing!?

That was totally uncalled for! If you buy a faulty washing machine, and the manufacturer starts being gamey, do you go out to the media and rant on twitter to complain about Whirlpool?


That is because the contract signed by government of your behalf is so sloppy and your owner and the sales guy are in cahoots. AI knew per contract they wouldn't get a penny as compensation even if planes are grounded for lack of warranty parts for a long time.

Everyone conveniently turned a GOI sloppy contract/OEM supply chain issue into AI mx practices issue.

Qatar's AJ created a documentary about quality and no shortage of warranty parts there.
All posts are just opinions.
 
KiloRomeoDelta
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Re: Air India to Start Delhi to Washington DC non stop from July 2017

Fri Feb 03, 2017 3:36 pm

lightsaber wrote:
Wow... AI is getting some mojo. They have improved tremendously. But they do need to be looking out for 6E. Oh, not for ULH, but AI needs feed for even ULH.
Lightsaber


Oh they have plenty of connecting feed of their own. AI flies to a truckload of airports across India and schedules its ULH flights to depart/arrive DEL in time for connections for pretty much anywhere in the country. When I flew SFO-DEL last month, my flight was over 60% connecting passengers, heading to Mumbai, Bangalore, Hyderabad, Chennai, Ahmedabad, Amritsar...
 
anshabhi
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Re: Air India to Start Delhi to Washington DC non stop from July 2017

Fri Feb 03, 2017 3:54 pm

Flightsimboy wrote:
Will they ever come back to YYZ!!

Apparently YES!!

AI CMD recently said in an interview that AI will restart YYZ this year:


https://www.google.co.in/url?sa=t&sourc ... tryB50nNzA
 
hohd
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Re: Air India to Start Delhi to Washington DC non stop from July 2017

Fri Feb 03, 2017 5:02 pm

If the route is average, then AI may not expand beyond 3 times a week or at most 4. If it is successful look for AI to increase 6 or daily.

There are not that many routes in USA which could be profitable to AI. They tried LA before, may be second time is the charm, also the distance is approaching the limits of any aircraft they have. BOS appears to be the only other viable city. They should continue to expand in Canada as the ME3 has limited flights there - Toronto, followed by Vancouver. DFW and IAH are super competitive and it will be tough to imagine they would succeed.

What AI needs is a good inexpensive feed system (to a few cities) to their existing services in USA airports, UA is not cutting it, they are too expensive and generally uncooperative. AI actually had had better luck with AA. They need to go all out with JetBlue at JFK and leverage them to the max.
 
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BawliBooch
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Re: Air India to Start Delhi to Washington DC non stop from July 2017

Sat Feb 04, 2017 2:24 am

KiloRomeoDelta wrote:
Oh they have plenty of connecting feed of their own. AI flies to a truckload of airports across India and schedules its ULH flights to depart/arrive DEL in time for connections for pretty much anywhere in the country. When I flew SFO-DEL last month, my flight was over 60% connecting passengers, heading to Mumbai, Bangalore, Hyderabad, Chennai, Ahmedabad, Amritsar...


Thats the big story with AI. Most passengers on their domestic flights to the bigger Tier-2 cities are connecting passengers while most O&D pax seem to stick to LCC's/Jet. The evening AI504 departure BLR-DEL is almost 80% connecting passengers. It was one of the first to see a domestic 787.

Word is AI173/174 on the route will shortly move over to the 77L and continue on to SFO much like AI125 does with HYD-DEL-ORD.
Mr.Kapoor's favorite poodle!
 
NichCage
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Re: Air India to Start Delhi to Washington DC non stop from July 2017

Sat Feb 04, 2017 3:26 am

Have there been any news about Copenhagen yet?
 
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BawliBooch
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Re: Air India to Start Delhi to Washington DC non stop from July 2017

Sat Feb 04, 2017 4:01 am

seabosdca wrote:
Many of those, especially failing windshields, spoiler actuators, and software squawks, were experienced en masse by other early 787 operators. None of the others had to keep two aircraft AOG for almost a year.


Other airlines have had plenty of issues too.
Japanese airline to replace 100 engines on its new Boeing 787 Dreamliner jets after corrosion saw fan blades crack in mid-air

The key difference between many airlines and Air India is that the AI deal, pushed through with great speed by the Govt against AI's will, did not have key compensation clauses wired into the agreements like was the case with earlier deals. When the former IC (now merged into AI) had inducted their first lot of A320's in 1989, they had issues with the then new-technology V2500 engine not delivering promised fuel-burn targets and some issues with cooling down time forcing longer turnarounds. The compensation clauses in their deal took care of the issues then. That didnt happen here.

The main reason Boeing got this killer deal of 68 aircraft pushed through with such speed was because the Boeing sales guy was the Aviation Ministers school/college buddy. Key clauses were conveniently left out of the agreement and Air India was left holding the bucket.

seabosdca wrote:
This is the first I've heard of "central wing box repairs." I assume this must be a reference to LN 46 (VT-ANI), the first Charleston-built frame. What was wrong, and what had to be repaired?


Boeing 787 wing flaw extends inside plane
Mr.Kapoor's favorite poodle!
 
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seabosdca
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Re: Air India to Start Delhi to Washington DC non stop from July 2017

Mon Feb 06, 2017 10:33 pm

BawliBooch wrote:
Other airlines have had plenty of issues too.


Yes, and my whole point is that those issues do not end up with the frames involved AOG for a year.



All of those problems were fixed before any aircraft were delivered.
 
goacom
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Re: Air India to Start Delhi to Washington DC non stop from July 2017

Tue Feb 07, 2017 4:14 am

Air India may theoretically have great connectivity from Delhi, but AI also ranks near the bottom in on-time performance. That coupled with notorious weather related issues during the heavy travel months of December and January means that AI is not a reliable choice for most travelers. If you have time to spare and are looking for cheap flights (subsidized by the hapless Indian tax payer of course!), then yes, AI may be an option.

KiloRomeoDelta wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
Wow... AI is getting some mojo. They have improved tremendously. But they do need to be looking out for 6E. Oh, not for ULH, but AI needs feed for even ULH.
Lightsaber


Oh they have plenty of connecting feed of their own. AI flies to a truckload of airports across India and schedules its ULH flights to depart/arrive DEL in time for connections for pretty much anywhere in the country. When I flew SFO-DEL last month, my flight was over 60% connecting passengers, heading to Mumbai, Bangalore, Hyderabad, Chennai, Ahmedabad, Amritsar...
 
anshabhi
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Re: Air India to Start Delhi to Washington DC non stop from July 2017

Tue Feb 07, 2017 5:26 am

goacom wrote:
Air India may theoretically have great connectivity from Delhi, but AI also ranks near the bottom in on-time performance. That coupled with notorious weather related issues during the heavy travel months of December and January means that AI is not a reliable choice for most travelers. If you have time to spare and are looking for cheap flights (subsidized by the hapless Indian tax payer of course!), then yes, AI may be an option.


Weather related issues have a minimal impact on AI's Delhi operations. All the runways and aircraft and most pilots are CAT III-B compatible.

And, AI is cheap? Please, don't joke :smile:
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Air India to Start Delhi to Washington DC non stop from July 2017

Tue Feb 07, 2017 11:26 am

seabosdca wrote:
Yes, and my whole point is that those issues do not end up with the frames involved AOG for a year.


How many other frames had central wing box repairs? Filling one small hole in ET-AOP took 6 months by Boeing. How to do you explain that? Do your research, just repeating same lie doesn't make it a fact.
All posts are just opinions.
 
capitalflyer
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Re: Air India to Start Delhi to Washington DC non stop from July 2017

Tue Feb 07, 2017 7:02 pm

This is a big get for IAD. Fills a glaring hole in the route map. There is a huge S. Asian population around IAD, no doubt they will be pleased to have a nonstop option. AI will print money on this route. What is up next, Rio, Cairo, Tel Aviv, Lagos, Hong Kong, Sydney, maybe Athens?
 
georgiabill
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Re: Air India to Start Delhi to Washington DC non stop from July 2017

Wed Feb 08, 2017 4:45 pm

Sorry if this is a stupid question. But how many seats would AI have to block off using a 77W on the DEL-IAD-DEL route? Assuming seats need to be blocked it must have an impact on cargo capacity as well. Would the # of seats blocked make the route unprofitable if AI used the 77W on a scheduled basis?
If AI was to order the 789 could it do it without penalty?

Thanks for your info
 
tsnamm
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Re: Air India to Start Delhi to Washington DC non stop from July 2017

Wed Feb 08, 2017 4:51 pm

capitalflyer wrote:
This is a big get for IAD. Fills a glaring hole in the route map. There is a huge S. Asian population around IAD, no doubt they will be pleased to have a nonstop option. AI will print money on this route. What is up next, Rio, Cairo, Tel Aviv, Lagos, Hong Kong, Sydney, maybe Athens?


Too bad UA seems to have no interest in this.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Air India to Start Delhi to Washington DC non stop from July 2017

Wed Feb 08, 2017 5:37 pm

georgiabill wrote:
Sorry if this is a stupid question. But how many seats would AI have to block off using a 77W on the DEL-IAD-DEL route? Assuming seats need to be blocked it must have an impact on cargo capacity as well. Would the # of seats blocked make the route unprofitable if AI used the 77W on a scheduled basis?
If AI was to order the 789 could it do it without penalty?

Thanks for your info


77Ws have 108 more seats than 77L, so even if they block every middle seat in Y still can match 77L capacity. If weight is still an issue, they should just remove F cabin and make it child play area.

Making money on cargo on a high load factor ULH is a British myth. There is a separate thread on this.
All posts are just opinions.
 
parapente
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Re: Air India to Start Delhi to Washington DC non stop from July 2017

Wed Feb 08, 2017 6:13 pm

Is there a pattern?We have just been debating Qantas considering ugh flights to NY and London.Now AI.As already stated the cost of a barrel halving must have a lot to do with it as well as super efficient aircraft.Both airlines are no doubt fed up with ME3 stealing their traffic.I guess if oil stays at the present price we may see a fundamental shift.
 
atal17
Posts: 447
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Re: Air India to Start Delhi to Washington DC non stop from July 2017

Tue Mar 28, 2017 7:38 am

It's finally here!

Air India announces its 5th destination in the USA - Washington DC effective 07JUL17

AI103 DEL0115 - 0715IAD 77L 357

AI104 IAD1100 - 1030+1DEL 77L 357

Bookings open!
 
kaitak744
Posts: 2221
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Re: Air India to Start Delhi to Washington DC non stop from July 2017

Tue Mar 28, 2017 8:53 am

dtw2hyd wrote:
seabosdca wrote:
Well, now that you mention it... they would probably have saved quite a bit of money had they done what every other airline with excess capacity of newish frames does, and either 1) lease the frames out to another airline or 2) kept flying the frames at reduced utilization. But instead they decided to let two of them rot, and then had to refurbish them at considerable expense.

You are arguing in vaccum.
Why AI kept 3 x B77Ls
1) B77L are niche plane, limited resale market
2) AI managed to sell 5/8 to EY
3) AI was taking B787 deliveries, supposed to be fuel efficient if and when they fly
4) There were no potential(even cost brake even) ULH routes.
5) Prior to B787 deliveries it was using these to Japan.
Mothball (vs) Variable Usage
If you really care about cost and resale value you mothball your surplus capacity. You want to showoff or your lessor won't allow you to mothball, go with variable usage option, which is more expensive.

AIESL in-house reactivated these planes, there was no considerable expense. That is a myth.

I guess you are call the dirt as rot. Missing engines,avionics and removable control surfaces is a standard long term storage practice. If you store a surplus frame at one of the VCV long term storage providers, they do exact same thing. Covering windows with mylar and presentation are optional.

seabosdca wrote:
Two theories here: 1) that AI's 787s were somehow inexplicably worse than other 787s in the same production block or even in earlier blocks (ANA's LN 7-9 and "terrible teens"; or 2) that AI for whatever reason was not driven to fix the issues in a timely manner. I find one more believable than the other..

You can interpret whichever way you want, that doesn't change the reality. Some frames from same time frame are not even delivered yet. Looks like general consensus is up to LN99 are iffy.
Who else had
-Central wing box repairs.
-Both bad engines need overhaul
-Both engines had fault in the accessory gearbox and need to grounded (of the total 8 bad GEnX engines 2 were on ONE AI 787)
-Had an un-contained engine failure before delivery
-Hydraulic line rupture and structural damage before delivery
-3 FMCs failure
-RAT disintegrated during taxi
-Constant windshield cracks
-Constant spoiler actuator failures
-Constant software glitches
Which of the above can you contribute to AI mx practices?

seabosdca wrote:
Ethiopian, China Southern, ANA, JAL and United all have frames from the same block. All of them had to do some updates. All of them finished the updates in a matter of less than a week. AI, on the other hand, took twice as long to do the updates as Ethiopian took to repair an aircraft (which also happened to be from the same block) that got mangled by fire.

Small fire repair took 6 months, but 11 months for central wing box fix is out of ordinary!!!
Each GEnX/GE90 engine overhaul takes 2-3 months at an AI facility. Six months for both is normal.


You really need to understand the reality of what really is Air India...

Air Canada, Delta, Emirates, Qatar, Pakistan, Etihad. All operators of the 777-200LR. NONE have complained about the 777-200LR being difficult to make money on. NONE have indicated intention to sell their fleets. On routes longer than ~5,000nm, the 777-200LR is actually MORE fuel efficient than a 777-200ER. That is an aircraft that dozens of airlines around the world fly, and make money on. If Air India can't make money on flying a 777-200LR on a route like DEL-LHR, they have problems. It is not the plane's fault.

Many airlines have had to deal with the unfortunate and annoying issues of pre LN100 787s. NONE of them complained anywhere near as much as Air India. Not even ANA.

The Ethiopian 787 fire was not a "small hole" as you stated. It was major composite skin damage. It was the first repair of its kind, and it was done out in the field, away from any major vendor or Boeing facility. It is impressive that it was fixed at all.

Also, don't blame ME3 for Air India's problems. For people flying USA-India, and Europe-India, flying non-stop to India and bypassing the crowded ME3 hubs would be very much preferred. Air India has a massive advantage here. They can charge a premium for that simple benefit. And yet, they are very good at doing only one thing: loosing money.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Air India to Start Delhi to Washington DC non stop from July 2017

Tue Mar 28, 2017 12:14 pm

kaitak744 wrote:
[You really need to understand the reality of what really is Air India...


None of the carriers you mentioned pay the amount of taxes and duties AI has to pay on ATF and MX/MRO.
Air India has to fly 2-3 hrs more than ME3 for same destination. Additional fuel weight and burn rate.

both B77W and B77L. are on and off 25% load restricted ex-Mumbai.

AI didn't try "For Sale By Owner". It had two assessors and a consulting company to complete this sale. BTW Air Canada did give a lease offer (I believe $700k/month/frame), but at that time AI thought it was a low-ball offer, later realized there is not much resale potential.
All posts are just opinions.
 
whywhyzee
Posts: 1119
Joined: Tue Jan 05, 2016 3:12 am

Re: Air India to Start Delhi to Washington DC non stop from July 2017

Tue Mar 28, 2017 12:32 pm

They have a couple more 787's rolling off e line shortly, and I have heard a lot about CPH and YYZ being next, likely in that order. CPH is a newer idea, but it seems to be pretty solid. They continue to talk about YYZ as they have for the last year or two, it's likely to happen, just when, I don't think even they know yet.
 
dtw2hyd
Posts: 8278
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Re: Air India to Start Delhi to Washington DC non stop from July 2017

Tue Mar 28, 2017 2:05 pm

kaitak744 wrote:
That is an aircraft that dozens of airlines around the world fly, and make money on. If Air India can't make money on flying a 777-200LR on a route like DEL-LHR, they have problems. It is not the plane's fault.


Of the whopping FOUR dozen B77Ls sold, EIGHT were with AI. Even Delta is not using those on ULH routes. Air Canada is using B787 to India not B77L. UA using B772 to EWR-DEL/BOM.

kaitak744 wrote:
Many airlines have had to deal with the unfortunate and annoying issues of pre LN100 787s. NONE of them complained anywhere near as much as Air India. Not even ANA.

But they don't have an Indian origin sales guy advising Boeing HQ, it is OK to delay warranty spares to AI.

kaitak744 wrote:
The Ethiopian 787 fire was not a "small hole" as you stated. It was major composite skin damage. It was the first repair of its kind, and it was done out in the field, away from any major vendor or Boeing facility. It is impressive that it was fixed at all.


How big a hole a 2xAA size battery pack which is encased in a metal case can cause

kaitak744 wrote:
Also, don't blame ME3 for Air India's problems. For people flying USA-India, and Europe-India, flying non-stop to India and bypassing the crowded ME3 hubs would be very much preferred. Air India has a massive advantage here. They can charge a premium for that simple benefit. And yet, they are very good at doing only one thing: loosing money.


US3 always claimed they cannot make money on ULH. Singapore CEO said the same, they were incurring losses on ULH for almost a decade. Even now AI ULH routes on the edge. That makes one question the ME3 claims.

BTW, AI's PLF beats ME3, particularly India-US and India-UK markets.
All posts are just opinions.

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