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anshabhi
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Ryanair says it could scrap UK domestic routes after Brexit

Thu Jan 19, 2017 3:03 am

http://uk.mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUKKBN1522FL

Ryanair's could scrap its small number of routes within Britain once the country leaves the European Union, rather than take steps to comply with new regulations, its chief financial officer said on Wednesday, a company spokesman said.

As an Irish company, Europe's largest carrier by passenger numbers could require a UK air operating certificate, or AOC, to continue domestic services post-Brexit, Ryanair CFO Neil Sorahan told an airline conference, Bloomberg reported.
 
migair54
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Re: Ryanair says it could scrap UK domestic routes after Brexit

Thu Jan 19, 2017 7:58 am

it is interesting, because after Brexit Ryanair will have to deal with all the bases they have in the UK, all the routes, staff, planes, etc... The number of domestic services in FR network is quite small, so it won't make a big difference for the airline.

I have not yet a clear picture of what will happen with route authority, but I guess it will be an open sky policy, but what about aircrafts based there, pilots, cabin crew?? right now all are flying under Irish registered planes, with Irish licences and with contracts with an Irish airline or Brokers.
 
Varsity1
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Re: Ryanair says it could scrap UK domestic routes after Brexit

Thu Jan 19, 2017 8:02 am

I will welcome a UK authority back. EASA is a bureaucratic mess.
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BestWestern
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Re: Ryanair says it could scrap UK domestic routes after Brexit

Thu Jan 19, 2017 8:27 am

What has this got to do with EASA?
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Andy33
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Re: Ryanair says it could scrap UK domestic routes after Brexit

Thu Jan 19, 2017 8:51 am

While some form of openskies agreement is what I'd like to see, and very much hope is what happens, if you take the UK Prime Minister's words at face value (always unwise with a politician since if their lips are moving they're probably lying) the UK position is that if they can't get exactly what they want on any Brexit topic they'll settle for no agreement at all.

So if they can't get Norway-style membership of the Common Aviation Market for the UK, then Ryanair will have to obtain a UK AOC (or reactivate the one it bought with the Stansted operations) or operate all its UK routes from the other end. I am assuming that no UK government, even one as utterly in headless chicken mode as the present one, would fail to negotiate some kind of air service agreement with the EU before leaving.
The situation with Ryanair and UK domestics would be repeated with Aer Lingus -but here there's no need to rattle any sabres or create any new AOCs, as an internal swap within IAG could transfer the BHD routes entirely to BA, with possibly some rotations on DUB-LON transferring the other way to balance.
 
A350
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Re: Ryanair says it could scrap UK domestic routes after Brexit

Thu Jan 19, 2017 8:59 am

It's maybe rather a measue of precaution to be not vulnerable to protectionism. The EU-UK routes will be safe until the UK wants to target EU-UK air traffic in general, and no British government will force FR to move the jobs of the bases out of the UK.

Maybe I've missed it on a.net, but I'm curious how BA and IAG want to cope with the new situation.
 
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reidar76
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Re: Ryanair says it could scrap UK domestic routes after Brexit

Thu Jan 19, 2017 9:11 am

BestWestern wrote:
What has this got to do with EASA?


The UK will brake with EASA, unless the negotiations end up with an agreement that includes UK membership in EASA. Currently there are several countries that are non-EU, but EASA members. Eg. Norway, Switzerland and Iceland.

EASA does not only certify new Airbus aircraft etc., but is the European authority for the air navigation system, air traffic management and all air and airport operations. There are lots of regulations and they also do inspections.

Compliance with EASA safety regulations is a must for operating in EU airspace.

For Ryanair and other airlines, it is not just UK domestic or flights with the EU that is at stake. Traffic management and navigation must be agreed upon, including for example how many flights EU airlines can fly into the UK, and who many flights UK airlines (and to which airports and slot time) can fly into the EU.

British Airways among other will also be affected. The UK and EU must agree on for example over fly rights and corridors. That is rights for aircraft from the UK (airline, aircraft models, slots) to fly into or over EU airspace, for example when flying to Asia, and of course the price for doing so (usually calculated based on MTOW).

For example Norwegian is not allowed to fly over Russia with their 787s. They take a 2 hour detour around in order to reach Bangkok. SAS on the other hand are allowed to fly over Russia with their A340, including flights to Japan and China.

BREXIT is way more complicated than many think, and Theresa May have signaled a hard exit from the EU.
 
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bgm
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Re: Ryanair says it could scrap UK domestic routes after Brexit

Thu Jan 19, 2017 9:13 am

Varsity1 wrote:
I will welcome a UK authority back. EASA is a bureaucratic mess.


In what way exactly is EASA a "bureaucratic mess"?
Really? Four more years of this?
 
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BawliBooch
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Re: Ryanair says it could scrap UK domestic routes after Brexit

Thu Jan 19, 2017 9:26 am

What is the scale of FR's UK domestic operation? routes/freq?
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JayBCNLON
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Re: Ryanair says it could scrap UK domestic routes after Brexit

Thu Jan 19, 2017 9:46 am

If FR loses the right to fly domestic UK routes then U2 will lose the right to fly intra-EU flights. I am sure FR would appreciate taking over all the EU-domestic routres from U2.

However you turn it: the UK is always in a weaker position.
 
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scbriml
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Re: Ryanair says it could scrap UK domestic routes after Brexit

Thu Jan 19, 2017 10:38 am

Varsity1 wrote:
I will welcome a UK authority back. EASA is a bureaucratic mess.


Even if the UK ends up with its own authority again, EASA will still be there doing everything it is today.

migair54 wrote:
it is interesting, because after Brexit Ryanair will have to deal with all the bases they have in the UK, all the routes, staff, planes, etc... The number of domestic services in FR network is quite small, so it won't make a big difference for the airline.


Exactly! Ryanair is going to have to deal with any changes caused by brexit, regardless of whether it's a UK domestic flight or an international flight to/from the UK. If there are changes, the only way Ryanair will avoid them is to stop flying to/form the UK completely.

It's just noise to get Ryanair in the news. It worked.
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filipair
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Re: Ryanair says it could scrap UK domestic routes after Brexit

Thu Jan 19, 2017 11:24 am

Good. If Ryanair were to merge with Easyjet, LH would be the first one to leverage its strength and Germany's position in the EU to block such a deal.

Air Berlin keeps LH fares fair (especially ex-Poland, which is what I'm interested in) and I hope they stick around independently of Lufthansa.

For example, on a route I fly frequently, KRK-ORD, there are the following options (in order of strength in market):

A) Lufthansa JV at least 3-6x daily via MUC, FRA, VIE, ZRH and sometimes BRU.
B) LOT Polish 1-2x daily (and resuming this summer 1 weekly direct flight)
C) Air Berlin 4x/week-1x daily via TXL
D) British and KLM only offer flights long connections in at least one direction and I personally don't consider them for that reason.

Clearly LH dominates capacity-wise with it's many daily options, thus giving it immense pricing power to undercut fares. LO rarely completely price matches and seems to enjoy a bit of a premium along with strong preference among certain demographics. These folks tend to be older and don't speak any language other than Polish. Lastly, we have AB that keeps prices reasonable year-round. Lots of people enjoy their service and fly them regularly as they offer a reasonable schedule and good prices, although with a rough connecting experience in TXL*. Thus, I appreciate the presence of Air Berlin in the market and hope they survive outside the LH beast. If Eurowings takes over, we'll see a drop in frequency and there will zero incentive for LH group to lower prices. And if the KRK-BER-ORD connection remains intact, it will just now be LH group 4-7x/daily.

As for Air Berlin, I'm an optimist about the strategy to divest the leisure and non-hub routes while focusing on longhaul and building a proper network. Duesseldorf and Berlin (and Brussels!) are large enough to warrant a network carrier vs the sub-par Eurowings/LCC approach. Unfortunately though, no matter how promising the plan could be, the LH/AB/EY tie-up looks like a done deal.

*Lastly, I would like to predict that all the absurd, mysterious and unexplainable issues and corruption swirling around BER for the last ten years will seem to evaporate within 6 months of closing the AB takeover. If you disagree with me, please at least consider the timing of events: is it not too much of a coincidence? Regardless, once BER opens and AB is dead, Eurowings and LH group will then be free to dominate Berlin again. Another loss for the European airline market and traveling public, with every single central European connecting hub dominated by Lufthansa Group.

Cheers.
 
sevenair
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Re: Ryanair says it could scrap UK domestic routes after Brexit

Thu Jan 19, 2017 11:28 am

Translation: "extremely high APD on domestic, brutal completion in the skies from BA and easyJet and massive completion from the rails means we are struggling to make money but instead of admitting to that, we are blaming Brexit".

If it was so difficult to make money here, how come FR have based two new aircraft here in just six months, and have launched many routes to and from the UK as well as increasing frequencies on others?

If you believe what people say around here, Brits are cutting themselves off from from the world, so surely domestic flying would only increase?
 
AngMoh
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Re: Ryanair says it could scrap UK domestic routes after Brexit

Thu Jan 19, 2017 11:52 am

It is funny to see the comments against EU because if any industry has benefitted it is aviation: airlines, passengers, airports and especially airbus, boeing and all their suppliers.

Some things the EU brought
- deregulation resulting in the entry of LCCs like Ryanair, easyjet and Whizz air. Benefit to new competitive entrants, boeing and airbus and especially passengers (but bad for old inefficient airlines)
- opens skies - unlimited flights within Europe. Good for everyone.
- Compensations for ridiculous delays: passengers get a relief thanks to the EU.
- Harmonisation of rules? All airlines benefit.
- Ban on government bailout of bankrupt airlines. Strong players win. (But how Alitalia avoided that is one of the great mysteries of life)

I went by bus on a 24 hour ride to Spain on a holiday because flights (even charter flights) were way beyond my budget. Now you just hop on FR and fly for less than what the bus would cost.

The problem that we have too many spoiled brats who have no idea how it was before the EU.
727 732 733 734 735 73G 738 739/ER 742 743 744/M 752 753 762 772 77E 773 77W 788 A300 A310 A319 A320 A321 A332 A333 A343 A345 A346 A359 A35K A388 DC-9 DC-10 MD11 MD81 MD82 MD87 F70 ERJ145 E170 E175 E190 E195 ATR72 Q400 CRJ200 CRJ700 CRJ900 BAE146 RJ85
 
skipness1E
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Re: Ryanair says it could scrap UK domestic routes after Brexit

Thu Jan 19, 2017 12:09 pm

The EU was a great concept which remains great in some areas but has become corrupt in others. See "Last time accounts signed off" or "Let's move to Strasbourg for a month". It is moving to be an incomprehensible over-large mess IMHO and the democratic legitimacy of our membership was always weak, as Parliament gave more and more of our sovereignty away over decades and we were never given a choice as all parties were pro-EU. So personally I am happy, and my view is Brexit can be used to counter blame for just about anything. Ryanair dropped all UK domestic flying, STN-PIK, BLK, NQY and it was a surprise to see it return. I suspect it's not been a goldmine as BA have slashed costs in recent years and EZY are long established in such markets. MOL says a lot, we all know much of it fails to come to fruition. I am more concerned about EZY who will need an EU AOC IMHO !
 
sevenair
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Re: Ryanair says it could scrap UK domestic routes after Brexit

Thu Jan 19, 2017 12:18 pm

easyJet already have experience with a Swiss 'airline within and airline' so it certainly has the skillset and experience. A little different yes as they're not buying another airline as they did with TopSwiss. Norwegian are out of the EU yet manage to operate within the EU so it is doable. I should imagine given how pro EU easyJet are now many EU jobs rely on it then playing hardball and making life difficult can result only in losers.

We share many of the same values, opinions and outlook that our friends in the rest of the EU share. Brexit will never change that. The admin and workings may change but we British (as much as we are hated on here) will be every much as European as we were before. The EU does not hold the rights to European values. We are still going to work closely with our nearest cousins, just that we will be working with our distance relatives too.

I contest 100% the claims that we are shutting ourselves off from the work. The Clinton News Network and Biased Broadcasting Corporation may like the paint that picture but that is simply not the case. Before the hate-a-Brits start accusing us of imperialism, any deals will be very much on equal terms with our new found friends.

I did not like the way the EU is going and I cannot sit idly by and once Billions being squandered when there is real suffering in some parts of EU countries. I do not want to be part of a bloc who treat vast sums of money as an infinite resource. It's criminal.

I am excited about the future. Conscious and mindful of our past, we look forward to an entire planet full of opportunities and new friendships and relationships.
Last edited by sevenair on Thu Jan 19, 2017 12:31 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
TheDBCooper
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Re: Ryanair says it could scrap UK domestic routes after Brexit

Thu Jan 19, 2017 12:25 pm

reidar76 wrote:
BestWestern wrote:
What has this got to do with EASA?


The UK will brake with EASA, unless the negotiations end up with an agreement that includes UK membership in EASA. Currently there are several countries that are non-EU, but EASA members. Eg. Norway, Switzerland and Iceland.

I highly doubt the future of the UK CAA and aerospace companies will be much different. I expect all entities that have current EASA certifications to continue to hold them.

EASA does not only certify new Airbus aircraft etc., but is the European authority for the air navigation system, air traffic management and all air and airport operations. There are lots of regulations and they also do inspections.

Compliance with EASA safety regulations is a must for operating in EU airspace.

Tell that to N-Registered, B-Registered, VH-Registered, A6-Registered, etc aircraft.

BREXIT is way more complicated than many think, and Theresa May have signaled a hard exit from the EU.

That is true, but unfortunately for Britain many did not see that.
 
AngMoh
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Re: Ryanair says it could scrap UK domestic routes after Brexit

Thu Jan 19, 2017 12:28 pm

Best way to be free of EU rules and get away from Globalisation:

http://channel.nationalgeographic.com/live-free-or-die/
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skipness1E
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Re: Ryanair says it could scrap UK domestic routes after Brexit

Thu Jan 19, 2017 12:42 pm

Well said sevenair. The UK is rejoining the world. We're trying to maintain good terms with our over-controlling ex but we want to see other people too.
 
UltimoTiger777
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Re: Ryanair says it could scrap UK domestic routes after Brexit

Thu Jan 19, 2017 12:58 pm

reidar76 wrote:
British Airways among other will also be affected. The UK and EU must agree on for example over fly rights and corridors. That is rights for aircraft from the UK (airline, aircraft models, slots) to fly into or over EU airspace, for example when flying to Asia, and of course the price for doing so (usually calculated based on MTOW).


I doubt it's in either sides interest to restrict overflight rights though is it?

While the EU could block UK flights from flying across EU airspace, what's to stop the UK from denying said rights to the transatlantic flights of the likes of KLM, Lufthansa and Air France which cross over the UK?

I really doubt negotiations will get quite that petty.
 
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aemoreira1981
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Re: Ryanair says it could scrap UK domestic routes after Brexit

Thu Jan 19, 2017 1:16 pm

UltimoTiger777 wrote:
reidar76 wrote:
British Airways among other will also be affected. The UK and EU must agree on for example over fly rights and corridors. That is rights for aircraft from the UK (airline, aircraft models, slots) to fly into or over EU airspace, for example when flying to Asia, and of course the price for doing so (usually calculated based on MTOW).


I doubt it's in either sides interest to restrict overflight rights though is it?

While the EU could block UK flights from flying across EU airspace, what's to stop the UK from denying said rights to the transatlantic flights of the likes of KLM, Lufthansa and Air France which cross over the UK?

I really doubt negotiations will get quite that petty.


All could take a southerly detour that might add an hour. The real issue would still be the UK, which also has to negotiate a new open-skies agreement with the USA, and in the USA, treaties need to be ratified with 2/3rds of the Senate. Theresa May should have had all of this considered before pursuing a hard Brexit. That said, Norwegian has a UK subsidiary with some planes on the UK registry (at least one 738 and one 789)...why wouldn't Ryanair pursue a UK operating certificate and re-register some planes in the UK?
 
mjoelnir
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Re: Ryanair says it could scrap UK domestic routes after Brexit

Thu Jan 19, 2017 1:19 pm

reidar76 wrote:
BestWestern wrote:
What has this got to do with EASA?


The UK will brake with EASA, unless the negotiations end up with an agreement that includes UK membership in EASA. Currently there are several countries that are non-EU, but EASA members. Eg. Norway, Switzerland and Iceland.

EASA does not only certify new Airbus aircraft etc., but is the European authority for the air navigation system, air traffic management and all air and airport operations. There are lots of regulations and they also do inspections.

Compliance with EASA safety regulations is a must for operating in EU airspace.

For Ryanair and other airlines, it is not just UK domestic or flights with the EU that is at stake. Traffic management and navigation must be agreed upon, including for example how many flights EU airlines can fly into the UK, and who many flights UK airlines (and to which airports and slot time) can fly into the EU.

British Airways among other will also be affected. The UK and EU must agree on for example over fly rights and corridors. That is rights for aircraft from the UK (airline, aircraft models, slots) to fly into or over EU airspace, for example when flying to Asia, and of course the price for doing so (usually calculated based on MTOW).

For example Norwegian is not allowed to fly over Russia with their 787s. They take a 2 hour detour around in order to reach Bangkok. SAS on the other hand are allowed to fly over Russia with their A340, including flights to Japan and China.

BREXIT is way more complicated than many think, and Theresa May have signaled a hard exit from the EU.


EASA has members that are neither part of EU, EEA or EFTA, so BREXIT does not have the consequence of needing to get out of EASA. EASA is EU based, but took over all JAA members when it replaced the JAA.
 
Jerry123
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Re: Ryanair says it could scrap UK domestic routes after Brexit

Thu Jan 19, 2017 1:25 pm

sevenair wrote:
easyJet already have experience with a Swiss 'airline within and airline' so it certainly has the skillset and experience. A little different yes as they're not buying another airline as they did with TopSwiss. Norwegian are out of the EU yet manage to operate within the EU so it is doable. I should imagine given how pro EU easyJet are now many EU jobs rely on it then playing hardball and making life difficult can result only in losers.

We share many of the same values, opinions and outlook that our friends in the rest of the EU share. Brexit will never change that. The admin and workings may change but we British (as much as we are hated on here) will be every much as European as we were before. The EU does not hold the rights to European values. We are still going to work closely with our nearest cousins, just that we will be working with our distance relatives too.

I contest 100% the claims that we are shutting ourselves off from the work. The Clinton News Network and Biased Broadcasting Corporation may like the paint that picture but that is simply not the case. Before the hate-a-Brits start accusing us of imperialism, any deals will be very much on equal terms with our new found friends.

I did not like the way the EU is going and I cannot sit idly by and once Billions being squandered when there is real suffering in some parts of EU countries. I do not want to be part of a bloc who treat vast sums of money as an infinite resource. It's criminal.

I am excited about the future. Conscious and mindful of our past, we look forward to an entire planet full of opportunities and new friendships and relationships.

Well said.
 
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c933103
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Re: Ryanair says it could scrap UK domestic routes after Brexit

Thu Jan 19, 2017 1:43 pm

IAG would also have to breakdown?
It's pointless to attempt winning internet debate.
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olle
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Re: Ryanair says it could scrap UK domestic routes after Brexit

Thu Jan 19, 2017 1:49 pm

Will Easyjet be able to stay in UK or will they need to have a UK Easyjet and a Eu Easyjet?
 
PanHAM
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Re: Ryanair says it could scrap UK domestic routes after Brexit

Thu Jan 19, 2017 1:53 pm

This discussion turned funny when it came to the freedom of the air. Abolishing the first freedeom would free a lot of Slots to run Services from Heathrow Green to Potters Bar.
Further I suggest that John Cleese and the Ministry of Funny Walks head the negotiations in Brussels. But don't mention the war.
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
runway23
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Re: Ryanair says it could scrap UK domestic routes after Brexit

Thu Jan 19, 2017 1:54 pm

Nobody has mentioned it but here's the list of domestic routes FR fly in the UK:

STN-LDY, STN-GLA, STN-EDI, LPL-LDY, LGW-BFS.

A grand total of 5 routes, 3 of which to Northern Ireland.

So no it doesn't make sense to setup an AOC for 5 routes of which 3 might fall into an exception (if one is granted to Northern Ireland).

The airline that has a lot more to lose here is easyJet who has hundreds of intra-EU flights and will need a European AOC if Britain has a new set of rights.
 
PanHAM
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Re: Ryanair says it could scrap UK domestic routes after Brexit

Thu Jan 19, 2017 1:56 pm

olle wrote:
Will Easyjet be able to stay in UK or will they need to have a UK Easyjet and a Eu Easyjet?



there must be an EU Easyjet or the Joint will be gobbled up by Luftwaffe- eh sorry Lufthansa. EZY knows about that and fighs with the weapons of a woman for win that Breakfast - sorry Brexit war.
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
Freshside3
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Re: Ryanair says it could scrap UK domestic routes after Brexit

Thu Jan 19, 2017 1:59 pm

Typical of RyanAir. They tried to threaten to pull some routes out Greece too, but they're still there. Just pushing their weight around and a bunch of lip service, once again.
 
sevenair
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Re: Ryanair says it could scrap UK domestic routes after Brexit

Thu Jan 19, 2017 2:01 pm

easyJet have singnalled that their HQ will remain in England. The structure is not fully known but the CEO made it fairly clear that it will remain in Luton regardless of what happens. There are all sorts of rumours, including buying Aigle Azur. In reality the plan I'm sure will remain a secret. At this stage we don't know what our relationship with the EU will be like so until its know I'm sure they are accounting for all eventualities.

We must remember that it's ten years now that Ryanair have been promising cheap TATL flights. Two airlines have beaten them to it. Ryanair is all talk. Londonderry seems to be the ones who will be hardest hit, not the UK mainland.
Last edited by sevenair on Thu Jan 19, 2017 2:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
stratocruiser
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Re: Ryanair says it could scrap UK domestic routes after Brexit

Thu Jan 19, 2017 2:06 pm

PanHAM wrote:
This discussion turned funny when it came to the freedom of the air. Abolishing the first freedeom would free a lot of Slots to run Services from Heathrow Green to Potters Bar.
Further I suggest that John Cleese and the Ministry of Funny Walks head the negotiations in Brussels. But don't mention the war.


I suspect their equivalent are already lined up for it!
 
PanHAM
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Re: Ryanair says it could scrap UK domestic routes after Brexit

Thu Jan 19, 2017 2:06 pm

BTW- EASA stands for European Aviation Safety Agency and will stay, Brexit or not, including having Britain as a acknowledging their certificatios. On par with the FAA

What is meant in many contributions here is the ESAA European Single Aviation Area. No Need to be in the EU to join that Club but cabotage would be a no-no in any case. And the 7th freedom as well
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
stratocruiser
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Re: Ryanair says it could scrap UK domestic routes after Brexit

Thu Jan 19, 2017 2:07 pm

PanHAM wrote:
This discussion turned funny when it came to the freedom of the air. Abolishing the first freedeom would free a lot of Slots to run Services from Heathrow Green to Potters Bar.
Further I suggest that John Cleese and the Ministry of Funny Walks head the negotiations in Brussels. But don't mention the war.


I suspect their equivalent are already lined up for the job!
 
klakzky123
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Re: Ryanair says it could scrap UK domestic routes after Brexit

Thu Jan 19, 2017 2:10 pm

Honestly, I think the odds are pretty good that the UK finds a way to stay in the EU Common Aviation Area even if they choose to leave the Single Market. It's a win-win for everyone, has nothing really to do with immigration, and will save the UK from a series of headaches around aviation treaties. I feel like the EU will also let them stay on this one. Its in their interest to keep the UK under the EU aviation rules as it benefits European airlines as well.
 
Noshow
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Re: Ryanair says it could scrap UK domestic routes after Brexit

Thu Jan 19, 2017 2:16 pm

Switzerland has air traffic rights within the EU like being a EU member state. (It is not) Why should the UK not be able to get some similar status after Brexit? Plus Ryanair could start something like easyJet Switzerland if continental traffic rights are needed.
Last edited by Noshow on Thu Jan 19, 2017 2:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
Flying-Tiger
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Re: Ryanair says it could scrap UK domestic routes after Brexit

Thu Jan 19, 2017 2:21 pm

Noshow wrote:
Switzerland has air traffic rights within the EU like being a EU member state. (It is not) Why should the UK not be able to get some similar status after Brexit?


No problem - what does the EU get in exchange for this favour? It´s the UK who wants to leave - getting a free lunch as in the past whilst being in the EU is no longer. There has to be an equivalent return if this wish shall be granted.
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Noshow
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Re: Ryanair says it could scrap UK domestic routes after Brexit

Thu Jan 19, 2017 2:23 pm

I agree. Just a matter of negotiating the right thing.
 
PanHAM
Posts: 9719
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Re: Ryanair says it could scrap UK domestic routes after Brexit

Thu Jan 19, 2017 2:28 pm

Noshow wrote:
Switzerland has air traffic rights within the EU like being a EU member state. (It is not) Why should the UK not be able to get some similar status after Brexit? Plus Ryanair could start something like easyJet Switzerland if continental traffic rights are needed.


No, Switzerland has not. AFAIK they cannot apply the 7th and 8th freedoms. Once upon the time in the good old days, lomg before the bad People of Brussels came up with an ESAA, ,ZRH-GVA was an international route where anyone that wanted could fly with full traffic rghts. That was a typical Swiss gift, it did not cost them anything because Trains where faster anyhow.
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
runway23
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Re: Ryanair says it could scrap UK domestic routes after Brexit

Thu Jan 19, 2017 2:34 pm

PanHAM wrote:
Noshow wrote:
Switzerland has air traffic rights within the EU like being a EU member state. (It is not) Why should the UK not be able to get some similar status after Brexit? Plus Ryanair could start something like easyJet Switzerland if continental traffic rights are needed.


No, Switzerland has not. AFAIK they cannot apply the 7th and 8th freedoms. Once upon the time in the good old days, lomg before the bad People of Brussels came up with an ESAA, ,ZRH-GVA was an international route where anyone that wanted could fly with full traffic rghts. That was a typical Swiss gift, it did not cost them anything because Trains where faster anyhow.


No Switzerland is allowed 7th and 8th freedoms, Swiss carriers do not have 9th freedom in Europe though. That said the reality for the last one is somewhat different as you see Darwin Airline flying some Italian domestic routes for Alitalia when they really shouldn't be doing so.
 
sevenair
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Re: Ryanair says it could scrap UK domestic routes after Brexit

Thu Jan 19, 2017 2:55 pm

Flying-Tiger wrote:
Noshow wrote:
Switzerland has air traffic rights within the EU like being a EU member state. (It is not) Why should the UK not be able to get some similar status after Brexit?


No problem - what does the EU get in exchange for this favour? It´s the UK who wants to leave - getting a free lunch as in the past whilst being in the EU is no longer. There has to be an equivalent return if this wish shall be granted.


Our Prime Minister made it clear that we are prepared to sit down like adults and work out a mutually beneficial deal in all aspects of our new relationship with the EU but we are prepared to walk away if it does not work out. We will not accept a one sided deal notwithstanding the fact that we decided to leave.

It isn't about free lunches. It's about working together to come up with a solution that works for us both. We are up against numerous challenges including bitter Europhiles who see us as risking the EU but also British haters who would like to see us punished. These attitudes go against the values which I believe the EU stand for. It's a shame that they remain principaled in one sense but quickly forget the spirit of cooperation and concord when it suits them.

In any divorce one person doesn't get to keep everything just because the other person decided they no longer want to be together.

We are up against a lot of anti British sentiment and extreme anti brexiter sentiment. People like to see the UK punished but may I politely remind you that 17.4 million out of 61.2 million voted to leave. I don't see why people seek to punish 61.2 million when only 17.4 million voted to leave.

Punishment policies will only hurt both sides. I am constantly told that the EU is the only reason there is peace in Europe. If the EU seeks to punish those who dare stand up to it then it is clear that the EU is not to be credited for keeping the peace, rather we Europeans as a people are.
Last edited by sevenair on Thu Jan 19, 2017 3:06 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
StTim
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Re: Ryanair says it could scrap UK domestic routes after Brexit

Thu Jan 19, 2017 2:57 pm

Some benefits then!
 
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lesfalls
Posts: 3367
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Re: Ryanair says it could scrap UK domestic routes after Brexit

Thu Jan 19, 2017 3:06 pm

I wonder if their dometic flights have good loads anyway. FR seems just to be always full of talk and I bet threatens the public like this to get the airports(LDY,GLA,LPL) to lower their fees only for them(Don't some EU airports do that for them?). I would have no problem with seeing FR leave the domestic maket as sooner or later they will kill competition.
Lufthansa: Einfach ein bisschen besser.
 
A350
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Re: Ryanair says it could scrap UK domestic routes after Brexit

Thu Jan 19, 2017 3:30 pm

Nobody in the EU wants to punish Britain. If you are a member of the tennis club, you have to accept the rules. You have the right to access the courts and take part in the club championships and parties, and to vote. You are obliged to pay your membership fee and take part in the cleanup of the gardens every spring. If you decide to leave, you lose your obligations and your rights - plain and simple. It's not a punishment if you have no more access to the courts.
 
sevenair
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Re: Ryanair says it could scrap UK domestic routes after Brexit

Thu Jan 19, 2017 3:34 pm

Yes, but if you build a tennis court in your own back yard and invite some club members for a round or two, what happens then?
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: Ryanair says it could scrap UK domestic routes after Brexit

Thu Jan 19, 2017 3:48 pm

In a couple metaphorical senses, Brexit will of necessity involve frictions. Trade, standards of goods, tariffs, workers,, transportation will all face new bureaucratic solutions at the border. It will slow things down. As someone noted, if Ryan air has only a few flights that would need a new counter bureaucratic division it may not be worth the bother. There will be an international border whereas at present there is no border. Paul Krugman, whose personal opinion was a 'guarded remain', has suggested that perhaps a 1% or so lower GDP as a result of Brexit - not a disaster, but still modestly significant.
Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
 
sevenair
Posts: 2959
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2001 7:18 am

Re: Ryanair says it could scrap UK domestic routes after Brexit

Thu Jan 19, 2017 3:51 pm

It still exceeds the Eurozone growth and let's face it most predictions regarding Brexit have been proven false with Even the Chief Economist of the Bank of England having to apologise for getting it so wrong.
 
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par13del
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Re: Ryanair says it could scrap UK domestic routes after Brexit

Thu Jan 19, 2017 3:55 pm

Let's be clear, EU airlines avoiding UK airspace is much easier that UK airlines avoiding EU airspace, like it or not, it is a + on the EU side of the ledger during the negotiations, a matter of geography.
In a similar vein, unless things change, the UK in negotiations for access will only have to deal with the EU representatives versus government officials of all 20+ members for overflight rights.
 
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aemoreira1981
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Re: Ryanair says it could scrap UK domestic routes after Brexit

Thu Jan 19, 2017 4:18 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
reidar76 wrote:
BestWestern wrote:
What has this got to do with EASA?


The UK will brake with EASA, unless the negotiations end up with an agreement that includes UK membership in EASA. Currently there are several countries that are non-EU, but EASA members. Eg. Norway, Switzerland and Iceland.

EASA does not only certify new Airbus aircraft etc., but is the European authority for the air navigation system, air traffic management and all air and airport operations. There are lots of regulations and they also do inspections.

Compliance with EASA safety regulations is a must for operating in EU airspace.

For Ryanair and other airlines, it is not just UK domestic or flights with the EU that is at stake. Traffic management and navigation must be agreed upon, including for example how many flights EU airlines can fly into the UK, and who many flights UK airlines (and to which airports and slot time) can fly into the EU.

British Airways among other will also be affected. The UK and EU must agree on for example over fly rights and corridors. That is rights for aircraft from the UK (airline, aircraft models, slots) to fly into or over EU airspace, for example when flying to Asia, and of course the price for doing so (usually calculated based on MTOW).

For example Norwegian is not allowed to fly over Russia with their 787s. They take a 2 hour detour around in order to reach Bangkok. SAS on the other hand are allowed to fly over Russia with their A340, including flights to Japan and China.

BREXIT is way more complicated than many think, and Theresa May have signaled a hard exit from the EU.


EASA has members that are neither part of EU, EEA or EFTA, so BREXIT does not have the consequence of needing to get out of EASA. EASA is EU based, but took over all JAA members when it replaced the JAA.


Norway had to be allowed in because of the tri-national airline SAS, while Iceland and Switzerland found it convenient. The EU here holds all the cards, and only Ireland would really be affected.
 
A350
Posts: 1076
Joined: Tue Nov 30, 2004 6:40 am

Re: Ryanair says it could scrap UK domestic routes after Brexit

Thu Jan 19, 2017 4:47 pm

For Ryanair and other airlines, it is not just UK domestic or flights with the EU that is at stake. Traffic management and navigation must be agreed upon, including for example how many flights EU airlines can fly into the UK, and who many flights UK airlines (and to which airports and slot time) can fly into the EU.


Such regulations will probably not be what the EU accepts. It risks to end up like FR gets the traffic rights for DUB, KL for AMS, LH for FRA, etc. and finally e.g. FR beeing banned from flying from HHN. For the EU it's very important that they are a political and economical union. Therefore they will probably insist that every airline from the EU can fly from any airport in the EU to any airport in the UK. In exchange same applies to UK airlines. It's the same kind of deal the EU does with other countries, e.g. Israel. So, no risk for FR's EU-UK connections.
 
sevenair
Posts: 2959
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2001 7:18 am

Re: Ryanair says it could scrap UK domestic routes after Brexit

Thu Jan 19, 2017 5:18 pm

Any punitive terms measures could have an impact on marginal Irish routes as well as TATL 757 flights. Those flights who are getting close to maximum range could find that they are no longer viable. Or flow controls could put in place for overfly flights.

However, I very much doubt the UK would be so petty as to do them. Take a look on flight radar. I cannot imagine flights having to take vast detours around us as is the case with Israel. But Israel could be seen as an extreme example of what could happen.

The lack of agreement would be terrible for the UK but also trickier for EU flights. Nobody would win.

We are constantly reminded of the importance of the EU in terms of trade. If the EU did turn difficult when it comes to flying then I fail to see how the EU could maintain its importance whilst punitively making flying more difficult for us.

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