User avatar
chrisnh
Posts: 4135
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 1999 3:59 am

Re: Boston Aviation - Part 13

Mon Jun 26, 2017 9:12 pm

clrd4t8koff wrote:
jetbluefan1 wrote:
I wonder where DL1 is pulling passengers from on BOS-SFO. With UA upping its offering, B6 adding another frequency, and AS eventually introducing a new FC product, this market is certainly heating up.

Interestingly, B6 is selling walk-up seats at $899-$1149, which is a higher range than BOS-LAX -- where B6 is the only flat bed offering.


DL is a much larger player in BOS than UA is, while UA is obviously the larger player on the SFO end. With enough perseverance DL should be able to make 2x daily work, though they may want to at least go 3x to be competitive as all the other carriers have at least 3x daily flights.


I don't profess to know the intricacies of this, but by adding a third flight won't that come close to creating more seats than the market can handle...and thus a collapse of fares and yields? I almost think BOS-SFO has got as many seats as it needs already.
 
User avatar
tlecam
Posts: 1473
Joined: Tue Jul 23, 2013 1:38 pm

Re: Boston Aviation - Part 13

Mon Jun 26, 2017 9:33 pm

I don't really know either, but I suspect that one answer is Boston based corporate travel accounts, especailly with BOS originating passengers. I suspect that there is also some market stimulation, lathough a relatively small amount considering that UA, B6 and AS/VX have flown the route forever. From 2004-2008, I flew back and forth between BOS and SFO approximately 35-40 times a year. Fares are roughly the same now as they were then for both coach and business. There are a lot fewer business class seats per flight, however.
BOS-LGA-JFK | A:319/20/21, 332/3, 346 || B:717, 735, 737, 738, 739, 752, 753, 762, 763, 764, 787, 772, 744 || MD80, MD90
 
clrd4t8koff
Posts: 1616
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2005 3:57 am

Re: Boston Aviation - Part 13

Mon Jun 26, 2017 10:11 pm

chrisnh wrote:
clrd4t8koff wrote:
jetbluefan1 wrote:
I wonder where DL1 is pulling passengers from on BOS-SFO. With UA upping its offering, B6 adding another frequency, and AS eventually introducing a new FC product, this market is certainly heating up.

Interestingly, B6 is selling walk-up seats at $899-$1149, which is a higher range than BOS-LAX -- where B6 is the only flat bed offering.


DL is a much larger player in BOS than UA is, while UA is obviously the larger player on the SFO end. With enough perseverance DL should be able to make 2x daily work, though they may want to at least go 3x to be competitive as all the other carriers have at least 3x daily flights.


I don't profess to know the intricacies of this, but by adding a third flight won't that come close to creating more seats than the market can handle...and thus a collapse of fares and yields? I almost think BOS-SFO has got as many seats as it needs already.


I absolutely understand what you're saying and do somewhat agree, but I think the end game of DL isn't to collapse fare and yields as much as it is to start owning more of the market and thus causing one of the other carriers to reduce service. UA runs as many as 7 flights per day, 2 of which are 777's which is crazy. I'm sure they could drop to 6 and DL grow to 3 and everyone would be happy.
 
User avatar
chrisnh
Posts: 4135
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 1999 3:59 am

Re: Boston Aviation - Part 13

Mon Jun 26, 2017 10:19 pm

Plus, DL can do something with those passengers coming in from SFO that UA can't. Granted, no one is going to go through Boston to get to LHR or CDG, or maybe even AMS. But DL has more of a 'meshed network' at Logan than UA does (or likely ever will).
 
tphuang
Posts: 3722
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:04 pm

Re: Boston Aviation - Part 13

Mon Jun 26, 2017 10:42 pm

clrd4t8koff wrote:
tphuang wrote:
I forgot to mention in your other post about Monday's flight that it was within 24 hours of the flight, so that's when a lot of free upgrades are happening. That's why you need to look at least couple of days ahead.


BOS-SFO-BOS is a DeltaOne (D1) route, there are no free upgrades offered. The cabin is SOLD OUT not filled with free upgrades. It's treated the same as JFK-SFO/LAX.

Why are you trying to reach so hard to find issues with this flight? DL is the newest player in the space, it must do what it needs to do to attract business away from the other 3 airlines that have been flying the route for several years. What don't you get about that?!?!?

Please look at Saturday, July 22nd from SFO-BOS one-way on the non-stop. It's $1,149:

https://www.google.com/flights/#search; ... b;a=DL;s=0

Look at Saturday, July 15th. It's $2,431 one way:

https://www.google.com/flights/#search; ... b;a=DL;s=0

Show me one day where the DCA-LAX-DCA flight is ever over $2k? Heck I don't see any dates this summer that it's even ever $1,080.

Are you happy yet?

With all the major elite flyer program, outside of the complimentary upgrades, there are also global upgrades (called SWU on AA and GPU on UA, GUC on DL). Both DL/UA have regional upgrades, which AA does not, which is why AA allows complimentary ugprades to be used for transcon flights. From my personal experience and discussion on flyertalk, many frequent flyers do use SWU/GPU for transcons or even RPU to upgrad eon these flights. So you are definitely wrong here. As a recipient of this kind of upgrades, I can tell you for sure they do in fact happen.

https://thepointsguy.com/guide/comparin ... ne-status/
"You can use RUCs on flights eligible for complimentary upgrades along with flights from New York-JFK to Los Angeles and San Francisco, while GUCs can be used on any Delta flight (and are now valid on both KLM and Virgin Atlantic). "

I look through the entire calendar and provide you an overview of the O/W prices and you post me the 2 days that they happen to charge over $1000. That's pretty desperate.
Last edited by tphuang on Mon Jun 26, 2017 11:08 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
tphuang
Posts: 3722
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:04 pm

Re: Boston Aviation - Part 13

Mon Jun 26, 2017 11:04 pm

tlecam wrote:
Not only that, but if you look at a few of the consistent business travel patterns, you'll find that Delta is commanding some pretty healthy fares:

Examples: Monday - Thursday:
July 17-20 - the morning flight is $1500 and the evening flight is $2000. If I select the morning flight, the return red eye on Thursday the 20th is commanding $3000 and it bumps up to $3500 if I went outbound on the evening flight. The daytime flight is commanding $1500.

July 24-27 - both flights are commanding 1800 on Monday outbound. The daytime return commands 1800 while the red eye commands $3000.
If I select the outgoing evening flight, the return red eye is commanding $3500. The daytime return flight is commanding $1800.


Tuesday through Thursday flights show similar patterns.

I think they're doing just fine so far.


I've provided the full calendar for the month of July from BOS to SFO showing one date more than $649 after July 2nd. SFO to BOS is a little better, but still only 10 out of 29 dates are showing over $649 after July 2nd. So that's a week and still less than $1300 R/T.

All people need to do is book their tickets separately.

And if you just do the drop down on the from date from below, there are at 15 out of 29 dates in there showing sub $1300 R/T
https://www.google.com/flights/#search; ... b;a=DL;s=0

What I did is clicking on the individual dates and then seeing that of the 2 flights, the morning out of BOS is normally always low and have horrible load. The evening flight sells well sometimes and othertime are priced also at such $650.

Compare that to JFK to SFO, DL normally has at most 2 out of 8 are showing lower prices like around $800, while the remaining show much higher like $1600 to $3000 O/W

I see your point that R/T trips with Monday out and thursday returns are commanding good fares for certain flights. But if you actual look at the individual flights on those days, especially tuesday to Saturday, the fares are pretty low.

I can see I pissed a few people off here, so I will stay out of this from now on.

My view is quite clear here that this is a bloodbath. UA is doing this because it's concerned DL will be poaching on its corporate clients in the tech sectors. So it's aggressively going after DL here by flooding the market with lie flats.
 
User avatar
chrisnh
Posts: 4135
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 1999 3:59 am

Re: Boston Aviation - Part 13

Mon Jun 26, 2017 11:25 pm

Is there any way to break down the percentage of passengers flying BOS-SFO who are connecting from or to other Asia-Pac destinations? Obviously Hawaii is a big one, maybe Australia/NZ. That seems to be a way for UA to hold onto share even in the face of DL marching in. DL and all the others can get folks to SFO but nowhere beyond that (relative to UA, that is).
 
clrd4t8koff
Posts: 1616
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2005 3:57 am

Re: Boston Aviation - Part 13

Mon Jun 26, 2017 11:42 pm

tphuang wrote:
clrd4t8koff wrote:
tphuang wrote:
I forgot to mention in your other post about Monday's flight that it was within 24 hours of the flight, so that's when a lot of free upgrades are happening. That's why you need to look at least couple of days ahead.


BOS-SFO-BOS is a DeltaOne (D1) route, there are no free upgrades offered. The cabin is SOLD OUT not filled with free upgrades. It's treated the same as JFK-SFO/LAX.

Why are you trying to reach so hard to find issues with this flight? DL is the newest player in the space, it must do what it needs to do to attract business away from the other 3 airlines that have been flying the route for several years. What don't you get about that?!?!?

Please look at Saturday, July 22nd from SFO-BOS one-way on the non-stop. It's $1,149:

https://www.google.com/flights/#search; ... b;a=DL;s=0

Look at Saturday, July 15th. It's $2,431 one way:

https://www.google.com/flights/#search; ... b;a=DL;s=0

Show me one day where the DCA-LAX-DCA flight is ever over $2k? Heck I don't see any dates this summer that it's even ever $1,080.

Are you happy yet?

With all the major elite flyer program, outside of the complimentary upgrades, there are also global upgrades (called SWU on AA and GPU on UA, GUC on DL). Both DL/UA have regional upgrades, which AA does not, which is why AA allows complimentary ugprades to be used for transcon flights. From my personal experience and discussion on flyertalk, many frequent flyers do use SWU/GPU for transcons or even RPU to upgrad eon these flights. So you are definitely wrong here. As a recipient of this kind of upgrades, I can tell you for sure they do in fact happen.

https://thepointsguy.com/guide/comparin ... ne-status/
"You can use RUCs on flights eligible for complimentary upgrades along with flights from New York-JFK to Los Angeles and San Francisco, while GUCs can be used on any Delta flight (and are now valid on both KLM and Virgin Atlantic). "

I look through the entire calendar and provide you an overview of the O/W prices and you post me the 2 days that they happen to charge over $1000. That's pretty desperate.


Look, you're clearly being proven wrong and have now decided to act like a child and call someone desperate because they were able to provide you actual facts that disputed your claim. Why do people like you have to exist? You bring absolutely ZERO value to this site or to life in general.

And for the record, upgrading with a RUC or GUC on DL is NOT a free upgrade. It is an instrument supported upgrade offered to only top tier elites. You said the flight was full of free upgrades, which it isn't and that's correct. You have ZERO idea how many of those seats on this mornings 7am were upgraded with RUC/GUC.
 
User avatar
adamh8297
Posts: 3191
Joined: Sat Dec 15, 2012 6:28 pm

Re: Boston Aviation - Part 13

Tue Jun 27, 2017 1:06 am

chrisnh wrote:
Is there any way to break down the percentage of passengers flying BOS-SFO who are connecting from or to other Asia-Pac destinations? Obviously Hawaii is a big one, maybe Australia/NZ. That seems to be a way for UA to hold onto share even in the face of DL marching in. DL and all the others can get folks to SFO but nowhere beyond that (relative to UA, that is).


I checked DB1B which is a 10% sample of all tickets purchased in USA per quarter but it doesn't tell you airline or connecting hub.

Using that report BOS-Hawaii probably ranges from 125-200 PDEW a day and HNL average 93 PDEW. I would have to guess HNL is the biggest connection point in SFO from BOS.

I wouldn't discount west coast destinations and Alaska in the summer for feed into SFO either.
Airlines flown: A3, AA, AC, AF, AM, BA, B6, CA, CO, CX, DL, EA, EL, IB, LH, MI, MQ, NH, NW, NZ, OU, PE, QF, S4, SQ, TP, UA, US, VS, WE, WN

2019: CX BOS-HKG, WE HKG-HKT, CA HKT-PEK-EWR, B6 EWR-BOS
 
alphaomega
Posts: 267
Joined: Fri Aug 26, 2005 1:26 pm

Re: Boston Aviation - Part 13

Tue Jun 27, 2017 1:56 am

I recently flew BOS-SFO on DL and the experience was excellent. The lie-flat beds give UA, B6, and VX a run for their money, and the flight was completely full. Not sure about UA loads along with the others, but the fares on DL were not cheap.
 
AviationAddict
Posts: 768
Joined: Sun Feb 05, 2006 2:37 am

Re: Boston Aviation - Part 13

Tue Jun 27, 2017 2:06 pm

I flew BOS-SFO on the UA 777 yesterday in F; the lie flat was decent but I thought the service was a little underwhelming. I can't speak to the experience in E/E+. That being said though, the plane was 100% full and I thought they did a good job getting everyone boarded quickly. It's great to see domestic wide body service again!
 
User avatar
N717TW
Posts: 545
Joined: Sun Feb 14, 2016 9:24 pm

Re: Boston Aviation - Part 13

Wed Jun 28, 2017 12:43 pm

I just booked a ticket yesterday for a 2 day July trip; J was consistently selling across most routings for about 3X what Y was selling for. But the airfares are exactly what you would expect in a newly competitive, 4-way race on a higher-profile route. I will admit to those above that this is a "great deal" when you consider that the forward 757 cabin has 16 seats compared to 56 Y seats that would otherwise fit in there--therefore it should be selling for at least 3.5X to equal the real estate value. This all reminds me of 2009/2010 when VX launched BOS and I regularly was flying to LAX (I used to do this trip 20-ish times a year) for $99 each way.

That all said, I couldn't use an upgrade certificate to move into J...had to be wait listed. So DL obviously thinks, even in late July, that it can sell most of the cabin.

As someone who flies to Cali on a regular basis, don't underestimate UA's strength on the BOS end. While UA doesn't have the FF base of AA or DL or the fan club of B6, there are still a fair number of MileagePlus members and UA has a number of BOS based corporate accounts that keep the SFO flight packed. Not all of us New Englanders are fixated on flying to Florida. For the time being DL is likely to be a weaker, if not the weakest player on the route although they can probably make money on it and it definitely helps to secure high-tech and banking business as SFO is a key route. Medium term, if they hang on here, they probably have a shot at overtaking AS/VX and B6 given their strength on both ends compared to AS and B6.
 
clrd4t8koff
Posts: 1616
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2005 3:57 am

Re: Boston Aviation - Part 13

Wed Jun 28, 2017 1:44 pm

N717TW wrote:
I just booked a ticket yesterday for a 2 day July trip; J was consistently selling across most routings for about 3X what Y was selling for. But the airfares are exactly what you would expect in a newly competitive, 4-way race on a higher-profile route. I will admit to those above that this is a "great deal" when you consider that the forward 757 cabin has 16 seats compared to 56 Y seats that would otherwise fit in there--therefore it should be selling for at least 3.5X to equal the real estate value. This all reminds me of 2009/2010 when VX launched BOS and I regularly was flying to LAX (I used to do this trip 20-ish times a year) for $99 each way.

That all said, I couldn't use an upgrade certificate to move into J...had to be wait listed. So DL obviously thinks, even in late July, that it can sell most of the cabin.

As someone who flies to Cali on a regular basis, don't underestimate UA's strength on the BOS end. While UA doesn't have the FF base of AA or DL or the fan club of B6, there are still a fair number of MileagePlus members and UA has a number of BOS based corporate accounts that keep the SFO flight packed. Not all of us New Englanders are fixated on flying to Florida. For the time being DL is likely to be a weaker, if not the weakest player on the route although they can probably make money on it and it definitely helps to secure high-tech and banking business as SFO is a key route. Medium term, if they hang on here, they probably have a shot at overtaking AS/VX and B6 given their strength on both ends compared to AS and B6.


I would agree that with the right approach and commitment to BOS-SFO DL will be able to make the route work. I think they have a good shot at overtaking AS/VX, though I think B6 will be a tougher battle. B6 has a very loyal following even outside of their FL routes from BOS, so I think they'll do alright. I do think though that if DL wants to own more of the market that they will need to be 3x daily to really tackle AS/VX and be successful in the long run against UA. Heck, even this summer DL is running 3x on BOS-LAX on some days. The business crowd wants frequency.
 
iyerhari
Posts: 1023
Joined: Sat Jun 01, 2013 4:25 pm

Re: Boston Aviation - Part 13

Wed Jun 28, 2017 6:25 pm

N717TW wrote:
As someone who flies to Cali on a regular basis, don't underestimate UA's strength on the BOS end. While UA doesn't have the FF base of AA or DL or the fan club of B6, there are still a fair number of MileagePlus members and UA has a number of BOS based corporate accounts that keep the SFO flight packed.


The market share of DL and UA are not far-off - only a miniscule difference.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logan_Int ... rket_share
UA and DL have been slogging it with each other to be in spot 3 and 4 respectively. But I do agree with u on UA from BOS-SFO - there are close to 7 nonstop direct flights and operate at good frequency. Quite ironical as it may sound but UA has almost the same market share as compared to DL at Logan with just 9 gates (B20-29 if my memory serves right) compared to DL (Gates 2-17 - WestJet occupies gate A1 and I do not know if DL operates from A1). I think that SFO, ORD, EWR, IAH, LAX maybe contributing to a lion's share of UA's passengers with CLE, IAD to a much lesser extent. Hopefully starting Sep-2017 with DL bulk adds (MCI, AUS, BUF, ORF) may lend some more adds and hopefully some more market share to DL.

On another note, during my weekend trip to YYZ on WestJet, I saw the BOS-DUB flight being loaded and it looked quite full with the gate agent announcing it being a sold out flight on Friday. I hope that DL is raking in good passenger volumes and possibly convert BOS-DUB a full-year flight.
 
jplatts
Posts: 3228
Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2017 6:42 pm

Re: Boston Aviation - Part 13

Wed Jun 28, 2017 6:42 pm

chrisnh wrote:
Plus, DL can do something with those passengers coming in from SFO that UA can't. Granted, no one is going to go through Boston to get to LHR or CDG, or maybe even AMS. But DL has more of a 'meshed network' at Logan than UA does (or likely ever will).


There are also international flights to Asia out of SFO on China Airlines, China Eastern Airlines, China Southern Airlines, and Korean Air, all of whom are in the SkyTeam Alliance, all of whom codeshare with Delta Air Lines, and all of whom compete against airlines in Star Alliance. Delta can provide Boston-area customers with connections to China, Taiwan, and South Korea through SFO on flights operated by CI, MU, CZ, and KE.
 
B752OS
Posts: 1215
Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 4:05 am

Re: Boston Aviation - Part 13

Wed Jun 28, 2017 7:21 pm

iyerhari wrote:
N717TW wrote:
As someone who flies to Cali on a regular basis, don't underestimate UA's strength on the BOS end. While UA doesn't have the FF base of AA or DL or the fan club of B6, there are still a fair number of MileagePlus members and UA has a number of BOS based corporate accounts that keep the SFO flight packed.


The market share of DL and UA are not far-off - only a miniscule difference.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logan_Int ... rket_share
UA and DL have been slogging it with each other to be in spot 3 and 4 respectively. But I do agree with u on UA from BOS-SFO - there are close to 7 nonstop direct flights and operate at good frequency. Quite ironical as it may sound but UA has almost the same market share as compared to DL at Logan with just 9 gates (B20-29 if my memory serves right) compared to DL (Gates 2-17 - WestJet occupies gate A1 and I do not know if DL operates from A1). I think that SFO, ORD, EWR, IAH, LAX maybe contributing to a lion's share of UA's passengers with CLE, IAD to a much lesser extent. Hopefully starting Sep-2017 with DL bulk adds (MCI, AUS, BUF, ORF) may lend some more adds and hopefully some more market share to DL.

On another note, during my weekend trip to YYZ on WestJet, I saw the BOS-DUB flight being loaded and it looked quite full with the gate agent announcing it being a sold out flight on Friday. I hope that DL is raking in good passenger volumes and possibly convert BOS-DUB a full-year flight.


I am surprised AA moves so many passengers in BOS considering how much they have cut the station down over the last 8 years.
 
User avatar
adamh8297
Posts: 3191
Joined: Sat Dec 15, 2012 6:28 pm

Re: Boston Aviation - Part 13

Wed Jun 28, 2017 7:33 pm

B752OS wrote:
[
I am surprised AA moves so many passengers in BOS considering how much they have cut the station down over the last 8 years.


Simple - their hubs for the most part are big O+D markets and their hubs have strategic value (i.e MIA for Latin America-Caribbean, CLT for South, etc.)
Airlines flown: A3, AA, AC, AF, AM, BA, B6, CA, CO, CX, DL, EA, EL, IB, LH, MI, MQ, NH, NW, NZ, OU, PE, QF, S4, SQ, TP, UA, US, VS, WE, WN

2019: CX BOS-HKG, WE HKG-HKT, CA HKT-PEK-EWR, B6 EWR-BOS
 
iyerhari
Posts: 1023
Joined: Sat Jun 01, 2013 4:25 pm

Re: Boston Aviation - Part 13

Wed Jun 28, 2017 7:36 pm

I agree and isn't that surprising. Off the top 10 domestic destinations, AA flies to only ORD, DCA and PHL that DL does not fly. AA does not fly into ATL, SFO that DL flies. The rest both AA and DL do not fly (EWR, BWI).

The difference between AA and DL is 2,741,000 PAX if I just use the Wiki numbers. If I just take a rough swag and sorry this is just a swag to say that 30% of ORD passengers fly on AA and 60% of DCA is on AA although I maybe completely wrong or somewhat correct :) it gets us to 732,414 pax so that implies that the other major stations that AA serves such as: PIT, MIA, CLT, PHX may be contributing to the PAX numbers.
 
User avatar
pitbosflyer
Posts: 356
Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2016 6:18 pm

Re: Boston Aviation - Part 13

Wed Jun 28, 2017 8:55 pm

iyerhari wrote:
I agree and isn't that surprising. Off the top 10 domestic destinations, AA flies to only ORD, DCA and PHL that DL does not fly. AA does not fly into ATL, SFO that DL flies. The rest both AA and DL do not fly (EWR, BWI).

The difference between AA and DL is 2,741,000 PAX if I just use the Wiki numbers. If I just take a rough swag and sorry this is just a swag to say that 30% of ORD passengers fly on AA and 60% of DCA is on AA although I maybe completely wrong or somewhat correct :) it gets us to 732,414 pax so that implies that the other major stations that AA serves such as: PIT, MIA, CLT, PHX may be contributing to the PAX numbers.


Probably not PIT, at this point AA is only flying a few CRJ-200's a day from BOS. B6 has pretty much eaten AA's lunch on that route.
 
airbazar
Posts: 9895
Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2003 11:12 pm

Re: Boston Aviation - Part 13

Wed Jun 28, 2017 9:21 pm

adamh8297 wrote:
B752OS wrote:
[
I am surprised AA moves so many passengers in BOS considering how much they have cut the station down over the last 8 years.


Simple - their hubs for the most part are big O+D markets and their hubs have strategic value (i.e MIA for Latin America-Caribbean, CLT for South, etc.)


Simpler: merge with US which was the second largest carrier in Boston at the time :)
 
User avatar
adamh8297
Posts: 3191
Joined: Sat Dec 15, 2012 6:28 pm

Re: Boston Aviation - Part 13

Wed Jun 28, 2017 9:39 pm

airbazar wrote:
adamh8297 wrote:
B752OS wrote:
[
I am surprised AA moves so many passengers in BOS considering how much they have cut the station down over the last 8 years.


Simple - their hubs for the most part are big O+D markets and their hubs have strategic value (i.e MIA for Latin America-Caribbean, CLT for South, etc.)


Simpler: merge with US which was the second largest carrier in Boston at the time :)


Very true!!
Airlines flown: A3, AA, AC, AF, AM, BA, B6, CA, CO, CX, DL, EA, EL, IB, LH, MI, MQ, NH, NW, NZ, OU, PE, QF, S4, SQ, TP, UA, US, VS, WE, WN

2019: CX BOS-HKG, WE HKG-HKT, CA HKT-PEK-EWR, B6 EWR-BOS
 
iyerhari
Posts: 1023
Joined: Sat Jun 01, 2013 4:25 pm

Re: Boston Aviation - Part 13

Wed Jun 28, 2017 11:11 pm

adamh8297 wrote:
B752OS wrote:
[
I am surprised AA moves so many passengers in BOS considering how much they have cut the station down over the last 8 years.


Simple - their hubs for the most part are big O+D markets and their hubs have strategic value (i.e MIA for Latin America-Caribbean, CLT for South, etc.)


Isn't ATL the mighty hub that connects practically most destinations from MIA, CLT and possibly even ORD (minus the Canada and international destinations)? I know numbers do not speak the reality, there is still substantial transport of passengers thru MIA, CLT, PHX. Wonder how DL will be able to bridge the gap with AA even with the new destinations to be added in Sep-2017 unless they add ORD, DCA and possibly PHL. How much money they would make is a completely different discussion.
 
User avatar
tlecam
Posts: 1473
Joined: Tue Jul 23, 2013 1:38 pm

Re: Boston Aviation - Part 13

Wed Jun 28, 2017 11:35 pm

And they wouldn't make much money on any of those three (ORD,DCA, PHL) individually, but they may round out corporate accounts that pay off in intangible ways to the specific economics of those routes.

The AA (former US) customer base shouldn't be under-estimated. The O&D nature of the AA and UA hubs plays a big role too - SF, LAX, ORD, MIA draw different crowds than ATL, MSP, DTW. DL may have those fortress hubs but that creates a different dynamic from a city like Boston.

It will be interesting to see how it plays out, especially if DL maintains its investments and continues to grow BOS.
BOS-LGA-JFK | A:319/20/21, 332/3, 346 || B:717, 735, 737, 738, 739, 752, 753, 762, 763, 764, 787, 772, 744 || MD80, MD90
 
commavia
Posts: 11489
Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2005 2:30 am

Re: Boston Aviation - Part 13

Thu Jun 29, 2017 12:38 am

tlecam wrote:
The AA (former US) customer base shouldn't be under-estimated. The O&D nature of the AA and UA hubs plays a big role too - SF, LAX, ORD, MIA draw different crowds than ATL, MSP, DTW. DL may have those fortress hubs but that creates a different dynamic from a city like Boston.


:checkmark:

In that sense, BOS - while obviously far smaller a station than it once was - is similar to SFO, ATL, AUS, etc. in that AA benefits from having huge connecting hubs, and many in some of the largest and most important business centers and O&D markets in the U.S. Similar, indeed, to United. That drives significant volume. In the case of BOS, specifically, I have to think that the ability to offer fairly compelling offerings with oneworld JV partners to both Europe (multiple daily LHR, plus seasonal MAD/CDG) and Asia (NRT) has to help with at least some corporate accounts.
 
B752OS
Posts: 1215
Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 4:05 am

Re: Boston Aviation - Part 13

Thu Jun 29, 2017 12:56 am

It will be interesting to see how Terminal B looks come the end of next year once Massport is finished with all of the work.

What's going to happen to the Admirals Club on the old AA side? Another club take it over? Maybe a Centurion Lounge?
 
RichardWelling
Posts: 160
Joined: Mon Jun 26, 2017 2:45 am

Re: Boston Aviation - Part 13

Thu Jun 29, 2017 2:16 am

Correct me if I am wrong. Is Runway 15L/33R one of the shorter runways in BOS? I keep noticing that when ATC assigns an international flight, said airline needs to drop positions in cargo to free up weight in payload. I have been hearing this from various airlines in Boston who complain about the short runway.
 
User avatar
VS4ever
Posts: 2443
Joined: Sun Jun 13, 2004 10:03 am

Re: Boston Aviation - Part 13

Thu Jun 29, 2017 4:49 am

RichardWelling wrote:
Correct me if I am wrong. Is Runway 15L/33R one of the shorter runways in BOS? I keep noticing that when ATC assigns an international flight, said airline needs to drop positions in cargo to free up weight in payload. I have been hearing this from various airlines in Boston who complain about the short runway.


Although the below is pulled from the wiki page, the standard airport layout maps give these lengths as the totals, so the short answer to your question is yes, it is in fact the shortest one available and usually only used by the likes of Cape Air etc. If others are being asked to use it, then i am not surprised they are complaining, as it's really short compared to all the others.

Runways
Direction Lengt Surface
ft m
4L/22R 7,861 2,396 Asphalt
4R/22L 10,005 3,050 Asphalt
9/27 7,000 2,134 Asphalt
14/32 5,000 1,524 Asphalt
15L/33R 2,557 779 Asphalt
15R/33L 10,083 3,073 Asphalt


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Diagram_BOS_Airport.pdf shows the standard layout map.
That feeling when you sit at the end of a runway, brakes are released and the raw power takes over. Now that is a thing of beauty and it never gets old.
 
tjerome
Posts: 289
Joined: Fri Sep 09, 2016 3:03 am

Re: Boston Aviation - Part 13

Thu Jun 29, 2017 5:01 am

iyerhari wrote:
...Quite ironical as it may sound but UA has almost the same market share as compared to DL at Logan with just 9 gates (B20-29 if my memory serves right) compared to DL (Gates 2-17 - WestJet occupies gate A1 and I do not know if DL operates from A1). I think that SFO, ORD, EWR, IAH, LAX maybe contributing to a lion's share of UA's passengers with CLE, IAD to a much lesser extent. Hopefully starting Sep-2017 with DL bulk adds (MCI, AUS, BUF, ORF) may lend some more adds and hopefully some more market share to DL.

On another note, during my weekend trip to YYZ on WestJet, I saw the BOS-DUB flight being loaded and it looked quite full with the gate agent announcing it being a sold out flight on Friday. I hope that DL is raking in good passenger volumes and possibly convert BOS-DUB a full-year flight.


DL does use A1 when WestJet is not using it. DL does not have enough gates to run the PM operation as it is. DUB comes in around 12:30pm and does not leave for SFO until 4pm - it usually gets towed out for a bit to get though the 2pm rush. Additionally at night there are around 5 aircraft at remote locations whether in the DL hangar or at other parking spots.

DL has been doing better than usual on LHR/CDG/AMS recently as well as doing good on DUB.

RichardWelling wrote:
Correct me if I am wrong. Is Runway 15L/33R one of the shorter runways in BOS? I keep noticing that when ATC assigns an international flight, said airline needs to drop positions in cargo to free up weight in payload. I have been hearing this from various airlines in Boston who complain about the short runway.


15L/33R is 2,557 feet long and would only be used by general aviation aircraft. I have seen BA's 747s taking off from 9 though (about 7,000 feet).
 
RichardWelling
Posts: 160
Joined: Mon Jun 26, 2017 2:45 am

Re: Boston Aviation - Part 13

Fri Jun 30, 2017 12:30 am

Ah yes. It could be 9 or 4L/22R
 
iyerhari
Posts: 1023
Joined: Sat Jun 01, 2013 4:25 pm

Re: Boston Aviation - Part 13

Fri Jun 30, 2017 2:20 am

Dropped my father tonight EK 238 BOS to DXB - completely sold out flight - they were offering business class if anyone was willing to relinquish their eco seats or a round trip free ticket based on preference. Long line for boarding pass and almost 95% to India. Extremely busy terminal and driven by QR, CX, BA and LH - probably missed some names.

Boy! EK is doing quite well with a single flight and will need to wait for VS4ever stats to see how good it is or is this just an exception!
 
hinckley
Posts: 547
Joined: Mon Jan 09, 2006 10:53 am

Re: Boston Aviation - Part 13

Fri Jun 30, 2017 8:57 am

Does anyone know what's going on with AB7473? I booked a J tix for a couple of months out. I'll have about a 90 minute connection in DUS to MUC, so I'll have to clear EU customs before the second flight. But it looks like 7473 is 30 to 60 minutes late departing almost every night. Is it the runway construction in BOS or something specific with AB?
 
User avatar
chrisnh
Posts: 4135
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 1999 3:59 am

Re: Boston Aviation - Part 13

Fri Jun 30, 2017 12:17 pm

iyerhari wrote:
Dropped my father tonight EK 238 BOS to DXB - completely sold out flight - they were offering business class if anyone was willing to relinquish their eco seats or a round trip free ticket based on preference. Long line for boarding pass and almost 95% to India. Extremely busy terminal and driven by QR, CX, BA and LH - probably missed some names.

Boy! EK is doing quite well with a single flight and will need to wait for VS4ever stats to see how good it is or is this just an exception!


It would be nice to see that second flight come back, but I'm rather pessimistic about it. Indeed, on two days last week the flight used their smaller 777-200LR. Aside from it being a dog for cargo (from those who know such things), the A380 seems like a perfect fit for Boston's supply and demand situation. If demand is greater than one 77W and not enough for two, then it would seem that one A380 is the right answer.
 
airbazar
Posts: 9895
Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2003 11:12 pm

Re: Boston Aviation - Part 13

Fri Jun 30, 2017 12:54 pm

chrisnh wrote:
It would be nice to see that second flight come back, but I'm rather pessimistic about it. Indeed, on two days last week the flight used their smaller 777-200LR. Aside from it being a dog for cargo (from those who know such things), the A380 seems like a perfect fit for Boston's supply and demand situation. If demand is greater than one 77W and not enough for two, then it would seem that one A380 is the right answer.

If cargo was huge from BOS they wouldn't be flying the 77L. A "dog for cargo" is only relative to the 77W and especially in regards to payload volume. In very simple terms, the 77W is more likely yo hit it's MTOW before it fills all it's cargo space while the A380 will run out of cargo space before it hits MTOW. So it all comes down to the density of the cargo on the route.
 
33lspotter
Posts: 546
Joined: Tue Jul 22, 2014 2:37 pm

Re: Boston Aviation - Part 13

Sat Jul 01, 2017 3:03 am

I fully recognize that these things can be overblown, but based on S4's track record I am inclined to side with the passengers. Garbage customer service once again from S4.

Passengers trying to head overseas stuck at Logan Airport for days
 
User avatar
chrisnh
Posts: 4135
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 1999 3:59 am

Re: Boston Aviation - Part 13

Sat Jul 01, 2017 8:36 am

As the 747 approaches its sunset years I thought I'd post a list from my recollection. I'm sure I've missed some:

Current:
• 748i – LH
• 744 – BA

Former -100/-200
• American
• United
• Braniff
• Aer Lingus
• Northwest
• British Airways
• Pan Am
• TWA
• Air France
• Lufthansa

Former -300
• Swissair

Former -400
• Korean
• Air France
• Lufthansa

Former –SP
• TWA
• American (?)
 
clrd4t8koff
Posts: 1616
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2005 3:57 am

Re: Boston Aviation - Part 13

Sat Jul 01, 2017 10:29 am

chrisnh wrote:
As the 747 approaches its sunset years I thought I'd post a list from my recollection. I'm sure I've missed some:

Current:
• 748i – LH
• 744 – BA

Former -100/-200
• American
• United
• Braniff
• Aer Lingus
• Northwest
• British Airways
• Pan Am
• TWA
• Air France
• Lufthansa

Former -300
• Swissair

Former -400
• Korean
• Air France
• Lufthansa

Former –SP
• TWA
• American (?)


Also VS 747-100 & 400, as well as Sabena 747-300 I believe it was.
 
clrd4t8koff
Posts: 1616
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2005 3:57 am

Re: Boston Aviation - Part 13

Sat Jul 01, 2017 10:33 am

33lspotter wrote:
I fully recognize that these things can be overblown, but based on S4's track record I am inclined to side with the passengers. Garbage customer service once again from S4.

Passengers trying to head overseas stuck at Logan Airport for days


Wow, those people were stranded Sun-Thursday (5-days). That's beyond absurd. Why didn't SATA re-book them on TP or IB other airlines or charter an airline like HiFly to get them out?

Also - was this just Sunday's flight or what about the other days this past week SATA operated. Did they fly then?
 
User avatar
adamh8297
Posts: 3191
Joined: Sat Dec 15, 2012 6:28 pm

Re: Boston Aviation - Part 13

Sat Jul 01, 2017 10:58 am

clrd4t8koff wrote:
33lspotter wrote:
I fully recognize that these things can be overblown, but based on S4's track record I am inclined to side with the passengers. Garbage customer service once again from S4.

Passengers trying to head overseas stuck at Logan Airport for days


Wow, those people were stranded Sun-Thursday (5-days). That's beyond absurd. Why didn't SATA re-book them on TP or IB other airlines or charter an airline like HiFly to get them out?

Also - was this just Sunday's flight or what about the other days this past week SATA operated. Did they fly then?


I think it was Sunday's. I looked at flight aware and there was a diversion and a few 1 hour late departures. Also they had a leased 772 for BOS-TER this week.

Besides the obvious TP, I think S4 can interline with AB, UX, UA too... UA would be very helpful for those going to LIS + OPO

I'd take BOS-EWR-LIS-OPO or even BOS-DUS-PDL over delaying my vacation
Airlines flown: A3, AA, AC, AF, AM, BA, B6, CA, CO, CX, DL, EA, EL, IB, LH, MI, MQ, NH, NW, NZ, OU, PE, QF, S4, SQ, TP, UA, US, VS, WE, WN

2019: CX BOS-HKG, WE HKG-HKT, CA HKT-PEK-EWR, B6 EWR-BOS
 
airbazar
Posts: 9895
Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2003 11:12 pm

Re: Boston Aviation - Part 13

Sat Jul 01, 2017 1:03 pm

33lspotter wrote:
I fully recognize that these things can be overblown, but based on S4's track record I am inclined to side with the passengers. Garbage customer service once again from S4.


You get what you pay for. Since TP started flying to BOS there's little need to fly S4 anymore unless your destination is PDL. Crap customer service, crap service, crap airplane cabins, the $100 savings or whatever it is is just not worth it.

chrisnh wrote:
As the 747 approaches its sunset years I thought I'd post a list from my recollection. I'm sure I've missed some

Did TAP ever bring their 747-200's to BOS or was it just JFK?

adamh8297 wrote:
Besides the obvious TP, I think S4 can interline with AB, UX, UA too... UA would be very helpful for those going to LIS + OPO

All of these alternative options are operating at pretty close to 100% LF at this time of the year. I've never been on a flight to Portugal in the Summer that is not 100% full. This type of behavior is not unusual for Sata. They can change their name and their branding all they want but it's still the same crappy airline.
 
User avatar
chrisnh
Posts: 4135
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 1999 3:59 am

Re: Boston Aviation - Part 13

Sat Jul 01, 2017 1:21 pm

clrd4t8koff wrote:
chrisnh wrote:
As the 747 approaches its sunset years I thought I'd post a list from my recollection. I'm sure I've missed some:

Current:
• 748i – LH
• 744 – BA

Former -100/-200
• American
• United
• Braniff
• Aer Lingus
• Northwest
• British Airways
• Pan Am
• TWA
• Air France
• Lufthansa

Former -300
• Swissair

Former -400
• Korean
• Air France
• Lufthansa

Former –SP
• TWA
• American (?)


Also VS 747-100 & 400, as well as Sabena 747-300 I believe it was.


Of course! Virgin! And I also missed Olympic.
 
georgiabill
Posts: 1222
Joined: Sat Mar 01, 2003 11:53 pm

Re: Boston Aviation - Part 13

Sat Jul 01, 2017 1:32 pm

You missed Iran Air, Iberia and Air China has both the 744 and 748. Korean has the 748 also
 
clrd4t8koff
Posts: 1616
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2005 3:57 am

Re: Boston Aviation - Part 13

Sat Jul 01, 2017 1:43 pm

georgiabill wrote:
You missed Iran Air, Iberia and Air China has both the 744 and 748. Korean has the 748 also


I believe he was only listing airlines that once had scheduled 747 service to BOS.
 
33lspotter
Posts: 546
Joined: Tue Jul 22, 2014 2:37 pm

Re: Boston Aviation - Part 13

Sat Jul 01, 2017 11:18 pm

This might have been covered earlier, but I didn't see anything – AA has started flying the Sharklet A321s on LAX-BOS.
 
User avatar
chrisnh
Posts: 4135
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 1999 3:59 am

Re: Boston Aviation - Part 13

Sun Jul 02, 2017 1:54 am

clrd4t8koff wrote:
georgiabill wrote:
You missed Iran Air, Iberia and Air China has both the 744 and 748. Korean has the 748 also


I believe he was only listing airlines that once had scheduled 747 service to BOS.


Right. A list having all the diversions or subs would be about triple what I posted.
 
B757rocket
Posts: 27
Joined: Sat Apr 22, 2017 11:12 pm

Re: Boston Aviation - Part 13

Sun Jul 02, 2017 3:11 pm

Beginning Oct 2nd:
Delta is adding 2x daily CRJ-900 BOS--PIT Monday-Friday. Once a day Sat. & Sun. See Enrila's OAG post, as it appears AA is reducing service further.

BOS----PIT
08:10--09:55 X67
19:55--21:45 X6
SAT
14:10--15:55

PIT----BOS
06:00--07:35 X67
18:40--20:14 X6
SAT
16:30--18:04
CRJ-200, L-1011, DC-8, DC-9, MD-11/88/90, B-707, B-727, B737-200/300/400/700/800/900, B757-200/300, B767-200/300/400
 
iyerhari
Posts: 1023
Joined: Sat Jun 01, 2013 4:25 pm

Re: Boston Aviation - Part 13

Sun Jul 02, 2017 3:35 pm

Wow. DL does not want B6 to eat the cake alone. I think that it is timed well for PIT-BOS early am connections. I feel that AA will discontinue BOS-PIT sometime Nov timeframe and permanently discontinue that during Dec. The remaining AA destinations - MDT, ROC and SYR may continue until DL comes ship into these routes. Sad story for AA BOS-PIT :(
 
B752OS
Posts: 1215
Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 4:05 am

Re: Boston Aviation - Part 13

Sun Jul 02, 2017 8:17 pm

Does anyone have any idea how AC is doing on the season YVR-BOS flights? What are the chances they may extend its 2018 season beyond the 2 months it will run this year?
 
User avatar
tlecam
Posts: 1473
Joined: Tue Jul 23, 2013 1:38 pm

Re: Boston Aviation - Part 13

Mon Jul 03, 2017 2:42 am

With those flight times, gates will be tight in A. I'm starting to wonder how they'll make it work.
BOS-LGA-JFK | A:319/20/21, 332/3, 346 || B:717, 735, 737, 738, 739, 752, 753, 762, 763, 764, 787, 772, 744 || MD80, MD90
 
zrs70
Posts: 3729
Joined: Sun Dec 10, 2000 4:08 am

Re: Boston Aviation - Part 13

Mon Jul 03, 2017 7:08 am

chrisnh wrote:
As the 747 approaches its sunset years I thought I'd post a list from my recollection. I'm sure I've missed some:

Current:
• 748i – LH
• 744 – BA

Former -100/-200
• American
• United
• Braniff
• Aer Lingus
• Northwest
• British Airways
• Pan Am
• TWA
• Air France
• Lufthansa

Former -300
• Swissair

Former -400
• Korean
• Air France
• Lufthansa

Former –SP
• TWA
• American (?)


Alitalia flew a version of the 747 into BOS though I don't know which.
When KAL first flew to BOS, wasn't it on the 747?
20 year airliners.net vet! 2000-2020
 
jetbluefan1
Posts: 3305
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2003 8:39 am

Re: Boston Aviation - Part 13

Mon Jul 03, 2017 10:12 am

iyerhari wrote:
Wow. DL does not want B6 to eat the cake alone. I think that it is timed well for PIT-BOS early am connections. I feel that AA will discontinue BOS-PIT sometime Nov timeframe and permanently discontinue that during Dec. The remaining AA destinations - MDT, ROC and SYR may continue until DL comes ship into these routes. Sad story for AA BOS-PIT :(


BOS-PIT is one of B6's most profitable markets...there may be room for all 3, although I agree that AA will eventually drop it. Sad indeed.

tlecam wrote:
With those flight times, gates will be tight in A. I'm starting to wonder how they'll make it work.


What is the current gate situation for DL and timeline for WN to move? I was at BOS the other day and was impressed by the amount of DL activity I witnessed over 4 hours.

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos