Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
AirbusMDCFAN
Topic Author
Posts: 497
Joined: Sun Nov 27, 2016 10:51 am

Schumer: Airlines Shouldn't Charge Extra for Overhead Bin

Mon Jan 23, 2017 7:46 pm

Link/Source: http://www.chinaaviationdaily.com/news/60/60211.html

U.S. Sen. Charles Schumer is concerned about airlines charging passengers for the ability to use space in the overhead bin.
 
micstatic
Posts: 830
Joined: Fri Jul 20, 2001 10:07 pm

Re: Schumer: Airlines Shouldn't Charge Extra for Overhead Bin

Mon Jan 23, 2017 7:47 pm

definitely don't agree with this. Not sure why this is something being brought up by a senator either.
 
User avatar
PatrickZ80
Posts: 4527
Joined: Tue Jul 13, 2010 5:33 am

Re: Schumer: Airlines Shouldn't Charge Extra for Overhead Bin

Mon Jan 23, 2017 8:00 pm

Those airlines just want to make a few extra bucks, and who can blame them for that? That's the way the market works. Some charge for checked luggage, some for hand luggage and some for both.

I agree that it can be a bit of an inconvenience if you're not expecting it. After all, just about everybody takes hand luggage on board. Certainly if checked luggage is also being charged for. That way you're more or less obligued to pay for it. However, mostly the basic fares are low enough that you can afford to pay those few extra bucks to take hand luggage with you.

Also from the airlines point of view it's understandable. Overhead bin space isn't unlimited and it's all weight that needs to be carried. On an average Ryanair flight the overhead bins are always full. Ryanair doesn't charge for hand luggage but does charge for checked luggage, so most passengers take the maximum allowed hand luggage with them. Sometimes you wonder how those bins can hold that much weight.
 
commavia
Posts: 11489
Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2005 2:30 am

Re: Schumer: Airlines Shouldn't Charge Extra for Overhead Bin

Mon Jan 23, 2017 8:04 pm

Fine, Senator - re-regulate the airlines and prohibit them from introducing a new "basic" fare category. [rolls eyes]
 
ahj2000
Posts: 1302
Joined: Wed Nov 26, 2014 5:34 pm

Re: Schumer: Airlines Shouldn't Charge Extra for Overhead Bin

Mon Jan 23, 2017 8:08 pm

commavia wrote:
Fine, Senator - re-regulate the airlines and prohibit them from introducing a new "basic" fare category. [rolls eyes]

Agree. This is ridiculous. The airlines are progressing to pay-for-what-you-want. No reason for some senator to get in the way of progress in this industry.
However, a warning from the airline wouldn't kill.
-Andrés Juánez
 
apfpilot
Posts: 742
Joined: Wed Jun 05, 2013 4:19 pm

Re: Schumer: Airlines Shouldn't Charge Extra for Overhead Bin

Mon Jan 23, 2017 8:09 pm

as long as it is well noted before the customer purchases their ticket I see no need for government intervention on this.
Opinions are my own and do not reflect an endorsement or position of my employer.
 
TheOldDude
Posts: 152
Joined: Mon Jan 23, 2017 8:02 pm

Re: Schumer: Airlines Shouldn't Charge Extra for Overhead Bin

Mon Jan 23, 2017 8:10 pm

If Sen. Schumer thinks this issue is the ONE aviation issue deserving of his time, we're either in great shape, or we're doomed.
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 9437
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: Schumer: Airlines Shouldn't Charge Extra for Overhead Bin

Mon Jan 23, 2017 8:11 pm

The federal government has the power to regulate airlines as interstate commerce. They could pass a simple bill mandating no charges for an underseat personal item, one carry on, and a single free checked bag - if Congress so chose.
 
manny
Posts: 563
Joined: Sat Sep 09, 2006 8:59 am

Re: Schumer: Airlines Shouldn't Charge Extra for Overhead Bin

Mon Jan 23, 2017 8:18 pm

I dunno whether this site is for aviation fans or fans of aviation executives.

I hope our elected representatives ask more questions of this industry which is diluting service due to less competition. That is the function of a working Govt. I hope we have a EU like passenger protection bill in place that protects the little guy.
 
User avatar
KTPAFlyer
Posts: 764
Joined: Sat Oct 10, 2015 8:08 pm

Re: Schumer: Airlines Shouldn't Charge Extra for Overhead Bin

Mon Jan 23, 2017 8:23 pm

I agree with Schumer 100%.

Many argue that unbundling is good and allows the passenger to pay for only what they need, but the reality is that the vast majority of passengers pay far more in basic economy or on ULCC's like Spirit once you tack on the ancillary fees that most pax buy. There is an extent to which this makes sense, priority boarding, inflight meals, extra legroom, etc. But who the hell travels without at least 1 carry on bag? Yeah, of course there will always be people that do, but for the vast, overwhelming majority of flyers, they do choose to carry one overhead suitcase. Competition is great between airlines, gravitating toward those that provide more value (read: free bags) when it benefits the consumer. However, the airline industry works inverse to this. Competition instead drives airlines to copy moves, and as a result we have seen the slashing of benefits across the board and basic economy, many of which have hurt passengers and create a lose-lose situation forcing them to pay extra regardless of who they fly. If unregulated, airlines can and do charge exhorbaint walk up fees, leaving many pax feeling cheated where they saved $40-50 only to lose the savings for carry ons, and then losing seat assignment, earlier boarding, etc. Basic economy has its merits, I don't argue that. But it's merits are not to the consumer, it is a merit to the company's ability to compete with ULCC's. I don't like where the trend is headed, because soon, the same slashing of benefits that has devalued loyalty programs is going to occur in the basic economy market. I honestly think it is an anti-consumer move; not to say that it was driven by corporate greed, but by a genuine and real threat from the unfortunate race to the bottom started by ULCC's. Many people pay the lowest price possible, but basic economy may finally draw the line for a lot of people, who will start to realize that before basic economy, regular economy was actually the better deal where you could get more for the same, including carry on bags. There's a reason Spirit is the most hated airline in America. One need not look past the botched UA basic economy debacle that was recieved terribly by the average person (the implications of this are alarmingly real, and I have personally seen many people react angrily to what the average person sees as slashing of benefits for a negligible price cut). If you want to improve your brand, the last thing you want to do is start racking up complaints from passengers in basic economy. Most passengers are willing to pay a bit more to fly with one of the major carriers like DL, UA, AA, B6 if they get a far better experience, even if the price is a bit higher, which is why most pax still choose them over ULCC's that are cheaper but awful to fly.

I don't usually support government intervention, but the airlines will never do something like this unless forced too, and if Schumer wants to take the initiative to do something about it, I support him.
Last edited by KTPAFlyer on Mon Jan 23, 2017 8:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
User avatar
richcam427
Posts: 141
Joined: Tue Feb 28, 2012 1:55 pm

Re: Schumer: Airlines Shouldn't Charge Extra for Overhead Bin

Mon Jan 23, 2017 8:23 pm

Airlines shouldn't charge for checked luggage or overhead bins. The government shouldn't try and intervene, either. It's the culmination of a race to the bottom brought on by the ever-decreasing competition within the industry.
 
AEROFAN
Posts: 1873
Joined: Wed Aug 04, 2004 9:47 am

Re: Schumer: Airlines Shouldn't Charge Extra for Overhead Bin

Mon Jan 23, 2017 8:27 pm

Just what are airlines going to charge for next? To use the potty?
“You are not entitled to your opinion. You are entitled to your informed opinion. No one is entitled to be ignorant.” ~Harlan Ellison~
 
KentB27
Posts: 476
Joined: Fri Oct 02, 2015 2:20 pm

Re: Schumer: Airlines Shouldn't Charge Extra for Overhead Bin

Mon Jan 23, 2017 8:29 pm

Honestly I think airlines SHOULD be charging people to use the overhead bins and make checked bags free. I can't stand it when people bring a carryon that's 3x too large because they're too cheap to pay for a checked bag. That inconveniences everyone.

But I believe that this an issue that should be dealt with by each airline individually, not by the government.

I also agree with apfpilot. If it is stated before you buy the ticket that you must pay for overhead bin space then I do not see a problem with airlines charging passengers to use it. If somebody gets upset or didn't know it wasn't free then that's their own fault for not reading the disclaimer before they bought the ticket. The free market is a brilliant thing. If you don't like paying to use an overhead bin then go fly an airline that doesn't charge for that. More often than not there is more than one airline to choose from.
Last edited by KentB27 on Mon Jan 23, 2017 8:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
AEROFAN
Posts: 1873
Joined: Wed Aug 04, 2004 9:47 am

Re: Schumer: Airlines Shouldn't Charge Extra for Overhead Bin

Mon Jan 23, 2017 8:29 pm

KTPAFlyer wrote:
I agree with Schumer 100%.

Many argue that unbundling is good and allows the passenger to pay for only what they need, but the reality is that the vast majority of passengers pay far more in basic economy or on ULCC's like Spirit once you tack on the ancillary fees that most pax buy. There is an extent to which this makes sense, priority boarding, inflight meals, extra legroom, etc. But who the hell travels without at least 1 carry on bag? Yeah, of course there will always be people that do, but for the vast, overwhelming majority of flyers, they do choose to carry one overhead suitcase. Competition is great between airlines, gravitating toward those that provide more value (read: free bags) when it benefits the consumer. However, the airline industry works inverse to this. Competition instead drives airlines to copy moves, and as a result we have seen the slashing of benefits across the board and basic economy, many of which have hurt passengers and create a lose-lose situation forcing them to pay extra regardless of who they fly. If unregulated, airlines can and do charge exhorbaint walk up fees, leaving many pax feeling cheated where they saved $40-50 only to lose the savings for carry ons, and then losing seat assignment, earlier boarding, etc. Basic economy has its merits, I don't argue that. But it's merits are not to the consumer, it is a merit to the company's ability to compete with ULCC's. I don't like where the trend is headed, because soon, the same slashing of benefits that has devalued loyalty programs is going to occur in the basic economy market. I honestly think it is an anti-consumer move; not to say that it was driven by corporate greed, but by a genuine and real threat from the unfortunate race to the bottom started by ULCC's. Many people pay the lowest price possible, but basic economy may finally draw the line for a lot of people, who will start to realize that before basic economy, regular economy was actually the better deal where you could get more for the same, including carry on bags. There's a reason Spirit is the most hated airline in America. One need not look past the botched UA basic economy debacle that was recieved terribly by the average person (the implications of this are alarmingly real, and I have personally seen many people react angrily to what the average person sees as slashing of benefits for a negligible price cut). If you want to improve your brand, the last thing you want to do is start racking up complaints from passengers in basic economy. Most passengers are willing to pay a bit more to fly with one of the major carriers like DL, UA, AA, B6 if they get a far better experience, even if the price is a bit higher, which is why most pax still choose them over ULCC's that are cheaper but awful to fly.

I don't usually support government intervention, but the airlines will never do something like this unless forced too, and if Schumer wants to take the initiative to do something about it, I support him.


Hear! Hear!
Very well said.
“You are not entitled to your opinion. You are entitled to your informed opinion. No one is entitled to be ignorant.” ~Harlan Ellison~
 
AEROFAN
Posts: 1873
Joined: Wed Aug 04, 2004 9:47 am

Re: Schumer: Airlines Shouldn't Charge Extra for Overhead Bin

Mon Jan 23, 2017 8:31 pm

TheOldDude wrote:
If Sen. Schumer thinks this issue is the ONE aviation issue deserving of his time, we're either in great shape, or we're doomed.


Right, because it is more important to discuss how many people showed up at an inauguration event...
We the consumers elected Schumer to work on our behalf. Enough with the nickle and diming already.
“You are not entitled to your opinion. You are entitled to your informed opinion. No one is entitled to be ignorant.” ~Harlan Ellison~
 
KentB27
Posts: 476
Joined: Fri Oct 02, 2015 2:20 pm

Re: Schumer: Airlines Shouldn't Charge Extra for Overhead Bin

Mon Jan 23, 2017 8:34 pm

AEROFAN wrote:
Just what are airlines going to charge for next? To use the potty?


Ryanair thought about it. Although I've heard that it was also just a joke on their part. People didn't think it was very funny though.
 
LightningZ71
Posts: 596
Joined: Sat Aug 27, 2016 10:59 pm

Re: Schumer: Airlines Shouldn't Charge Extra for Overhead Bin

Mon Jan 23, 2017 8:34 pm

I mean, flying is a commercial enterprise and not a right. Airlines should be able to charge for everything a la carte. They should break it down fully to you buying a seat usage ticket, with a weight based surcharge at the gate of some amount calculated based on your mass, the mass of your luggage, and the distance of the flight. Then, there should be a luggage and carryon fee for each item based on its volume and weight multiplied by a distance factor, with a handling charge for each checked bag, and a bin usage charge for each carryon that is too large to go under the seat. I mean, it's the only fair way to do it after all. That way, a petite 98 pound woman that can pack several days of clothing into a small bag that can fit under a seat shouldn't have to subsidize the travel costs for the 250 lb athlete in the seat next to her that has to carry a large carryon or even check a bag for his much heavier clothing. It's only fair that her final travel cost for her ticket booked at the same time as his, with the same number of bags, to the same destination at the same time is about half of his or even less. This is just useless grandstanding in the name of consumer protectionism and is completely unneeded.

There is a slippery slope all the way down the mountain. The question is, where should the government step in and put a safety line?
 
User avatar
richcam427
Posts: 141
Joined: Tue Feb 28, 2012 1:55 pm

Re: Schumer: Airlines Shouldn't Charge Extra for Overhead Bin

Mon Jan 23, 2017 8:36 pm

If airlines never started charging for bags, then there never would have been an issue with people bringing so much stuff on the plane and using up the overhead space. Most people are obviously going to have some belongings with them when they travel. We don't go to restaurants expecting to pay extra for utensils do we?
 
User avatar
PatrickZ80
Posts: 4527
Joined: Tue Jul 13, 2010 5:33 am

Re: Schumer: Airlines Shouldn't Charge Extra for Overhead Bin

Mon Jan 23, 2017 8:39 pm

AEROFAN wrote:
Just what are airlines going to charge for next? To use the potty?


Ryanair has already tried that once. At least, they spread the rumour that they would but they never actually did charge for it. It was one of those publicity stunts that they're known for.

richcam427 wrote:
Airlines shouldn't charge for checked luggage or overhead bins. The government shouldn't try and intervene, either. It's the culmination of a race to the bottom brought on by the ever-decreasing competition within the industry.


I do not agree that airlines shouldn't charge for checked luggage. Charging for checked luggage makes that people take less luggage with them and that's a good thing. It makes the aircraft lighter so they consume less fuel. That's good for both the wallet and the environment. Charging for hand luggage is doubtful since most people take that with them anyway.

I do agree that the government shouldn't intervene. The government may set up rules, all with good intentions of course, but if the airlines don't like those rules they just pull out and move somewhere else. That would mean that area loses air connections and most likely even loses jobs related to those air connections. So as a government you don't want to make the rules too strict, you don't want to set up rules that drive airlines away from you.
 
User avatar
SamYeager2016
Posts: 246
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 6:22 pm

Re: Schumer: Airlines Shouldn't Charge Extra for Overhead Bin

Mon Jan 23, 2017 8:46 pm

LightningZ71 wrote:
I mean, flying is a commercial enterprise and not a right.

<snip>



I believe you forgot to add "Tongue firmly in cheek". :)
 
User avatar
PatrickZ80
Posts: 4527
Joined: Tue Jul 13, 2010 5:33 am

Re: Schumer: Airlines Shouldn't Charge Extra for Overhead Bin

Mon Jan 23, 2017 8:48 pm

richcam427 wrote:
If airlines never started charging for bags, then there never would have been an issue with people bringing so much stuff on the plane and using up the overhead space. Most people are obviously going to have some belongings with them when they travel. We don't go to restaurants expecting to pay extra for utensils do we?


I do not agree. It's easy to calculate how much bin space there is per seat so if you allow a passenger that much hand luggage it always fits. It's full allright, but it fits. I believe that's the way it works on Ryanair. Their overhead bins are always full, but I never accounted they put any hand luggage in the cargo hold because it doesn't fit. They sometimes put some bags behind the last row of seats, but that's it.

Not charging for checked luggage only makes people take more luggage with them, making the plane heavier and consume more fuel.
 
commavia
Posts: 11489
Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2005 2:30 am

Re: Schumer: Airlines Shouldn't Charge Extra for Overhead Bin

Mon Jan 23, 2017 8:50 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
The federal government has the power to regulate airlines as interstate commerce. They could pass a simple bill mandating no charges for an underseat personal item, one carry on, and a single free checked bag - if Congress so chose.


Fine. As said, we can certainly re-regulate - partially or fully - the domestic airline industry. And the result is that fares will rise. It's as simple as that. What the government would in effect be doing is forcing those who don't use these ancillary services to subsidize them for other people. Thanks, but no thanks. As both a tax payer and frequent flyer, that is absolutely not a public policy I'd support - and I'm quite confident I'm not the only one.

manny wrote:
I dunno whether this site is for aviation fans or fans of aviation executives.


Are the two mutually exclusive? Can I not be interested in, and a "fan" of both aviation and the businesses they conduct it?

manny wrote:
I hope our elected representatives ask more questions of this industry which is diluting service due to less competition. That is the function of a working Govt. I hope we have a EU like passenger protection bill in place that protects the little guy.


Welcome to democracy. I, who is entitled to the exact same number of votes as every other American adult, thinks this is pretty much the antithesis of "the function of a working Govt." I don't want my government involved in any way in how an airline prices ancillary services. I want my government to regulate the safety and security of the air transportation system and otherwise get out of the way. As said, we can certainly move back towards a more heavily regulated industry, but the net effect will be higher fares. It's as simple as that. If that's the way we want to go, then fine. But everyone should be fully cognizant of the effects - both intended and unintended.

KTPAFlyer wrote:
the reality is that the vast majority of passengers pay far more in basic economy or on ULCC's like Spirit once you tack on the ancillary fees that most pax buy. There is an extent to which this makes sense, priority boarding, inflight meals, extra legroom, etc.


Well "makes sense" is highly subjective. For millions of people that fly Spirit every year, charging extra for everything "makes sense." So who gets to define what "makes sense?" If someone is willingly happy to part with money and accept less service and/or additional fees for additional services, who says they can't do that?

KTPAFlyer wrote:
But who the hell travels without at least 1 carry on bag?


I'm sure there's more than a few people flying Spirit that do. When I take shorter trips, I do, too. But in any event, AA's basic economy fares do not preclude or prohibit someone from checking a bag - it just adds an additional cost if they want to do so.

KTPAFlyer wrote:
Yeah, of course there will always be people that do, but for the vast, overwhelming majority of flyers, they do choose to carry one overhead suitcase.


Fine - so then the "vast, overwhelming majority of flyers" can either buy a regular economy fare, or buy a basic economy fare plus the carry-on fee.

KTPAFlyer wrote:
Competition instead drives airlines to copy moves, and as a result we have seen the slashing of benefits across the board and basic economy, many of which have hurt passengers and create a lose-lose situation forcing them to pay extra regardless of who they fly.


No, competitive drives airlines to make money - just as is the case for every other profit-seeking, publicly-traded, shareholder-owned corporations on the face of the earth. The reason airlines copy each other isn't because it's fun or they enjoy infuriating A.net commentators - it's because they cannot afford to see their competitors producing consistently, materially superior financial returns.

KTPAFlyer wrote:
If unregulated, airlines can and do charge exhorbaint walk up fees, leaving many pax feeling cheated where they saved $40-50 only to lose the savings for carry ons, and then losing seat assignment, earlier boarding, etc.


So as said already - define "exorbitant," and what constitutes someone "feeling cheated." It's highly subjective. I may have a very different definition than someone else. So who gets to decide? An unelected bureaucrat? Again - thanks, but no thanks.

KTPAFlyer wrote:
not to say that it was driven by corporate greed, but by a genuine and real threat from the unfortunate race to the bottom started by ULCC's.


Correction - the "unfortunate race to the bottom" wasn't "started by ULCCs," it was started by the millions of people who freely and willingly travel with said ULCCs every year. If nobody flew Spirit, Allegiant or Frontier, then there would be no reason for AA, Delta and United to offer these basic economy fare products. They're responding to consumer desires. Consumers have the choice, and the power. If consumers refused to fly on ULCCs, the ULCCs would cease to exist and AA, Delta and United could go right on charging the same economy fares for more bundled products. But I still continue to find it stunning that people have a problem with them offering an alternative for people who want it.

KTPAFlyer wrote:
but basic economy may finally draw the line for a lot of people, who will start to realize that before basic economy, regular economy was actually the better deal where you could get more for the same, including carry on bags.


And if so, then things will change right back. If nobody pays these basic economy fares, then the airlines will stop offering them. But I strongly suspect that lots of people will quite happily purchases these new fare products.

KTPAFlyer wrote:
There's a reason Spirit is the most hated airline in America.


Probably the same reason that it's also one of the most profitable, and consistently profitable, airlines in America.
Last edited by commavia on Mon Jan 23, 2017 8:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
User avatar
richcam427
Posts: 141
Joined: Tue Feb 28, 2012 1:55 pm

Re: Schumer: Airlines Shouldn't Charge Extra for Overhead Bin

Mon Jan 23, 2017 8:50 pm

PatrickZ80 wrote:
I do not agree that airlines shouldn't charge for checked luggage. Charging for checked luggage makes that people take less luggage with them and that's a good thing. It makes the aircraft lighter so they consume less fuel. That's good for both the wallet and the environment. Charging for hand luggage is doubtful since most people take that with them anyway.


I can see charging for 2+ checked bags, but it should be assumed that each person travelling is going to be bringing a checked bag onboard. That's how weight and balance works anyway; standard weights are used based on pax load and flight distance. In the US, we use anywhere from 25-40 lbs as a standard per-passenger luggage weight, and sometimes more depending on the destination. That should be the baseline, and anyone fitting into that baseline should not be charged extra. Charging a dude with 4 suitcases? Yeah, go ahead. Charging a dude with one small 15 lb suitcase? Not feeling it.

PatrickZ80 wrote:
I do not agree. It's easy to calculate how much bin space there is per seat so if you allow a passenger that much hand luggage it always fits. It's full allright, but it fits. I believe that's the way it works on Ryanair. Their overhead bins are always full, but I never accounted they put any hand luggage in the cargo hold because it doesn't fit. They sometimes put some bags behind the last row of seats, but that's it.

Not charging for checked luggage only makes people take more luggage with them, making the plane heavier and consume more fuel.


You also have to remember, comparing Ryanair to legacies in the US is almost comparing apples and oranges. Ryanair flies to many tourist destinations, which are almost guaranteed to intice people to bring a bunch of stuff (souvenirs) back with them. It's not really a fair comparison to say, flying between Middle of Nowhere USA to Even More Middle of Nowhere USA.
Last edited by richcam427 on Mon Jan 23, 2017 8:57 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
User avatar
adambrau
Posts: 369
Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2007 11:44 pm

Re: Schumer: Airlines Shouldn't Charge Extra for Overhead Bin

Mon Jan 23, 2017 8:54 pm

The government has no business interfering in how an airline cabin's service is operated as long as it meets FAA and other regulatory safety requirements. While charging for overhead space is one of the poorest thought-out decisions that has been contemplated, is for the airlines to ultimately decide. With United Basic - at least the expectations are set appropriately low by the product name lol. Who else is talking about this nonsense? AA's product to match seemed a bit more generous but could be wrong.

Adam
JFK Friendly
 
micstatic
Posts: 830
Joined: Fri Jul 20, 2001 10:07 pm

Re: Schumer: Airlines Shouldn't Charge Extra for Overhead Bin

Mon Jan 23, 2017 8:56 pm

As somebody who gets baggage for no additional charge because I have platinum status and direct 1000's a year to a particular airline, I don't think it's fair that I subsidize somebody's luggage who flies the airline once on a cheap basic economy fare. I'm not completely anti-regulation, but this one is the government putting it's nose to far into private business and macro economies.

I don't really agree with those earlier that think the airline experience is worse than ever. I see airlines with large onboard TV screens. Screens that are significantly bigger than the original versions. Loads of free movies to stream. Option to buy internet service. Option to buy nicer food. Options to buy first class at much cheaper than ever in the past. I don't see the problem here.
 
User avatar
PatrickZ80
Posts: 4527
Joined: Tue Jul 13, 2010 5:33 am

Re: Schumer: Airlines Shouldn't Charge Extra for Overhead Bin

Mon Jan 23, 2017 8:58 pm

richcam427 wrote:
I can see charging for 2+ checked bags, but it should be assumed that each person travelling is going to be bringing a checked bag onboard.


Assumed wrong! I know enough people (including myself) that never check any luggage for a flight. It's hand luggage only. I got a small suitcase that exactly fits the dimentions hand luggage is allowed to be and that's all I'm taking with me. Of course there are airlines that even charge me for bringing that small suitcase on board (Wizzair for example). If that's what it takes I just pay that.

Taking hand luggage only with you saves you a lot of time at both the check-in desk and the luggage belt. No need to visit either of them (I use online check-in if possible). I don't care what they charge for checked luggage, I don't have any anyway. Honestly, I prefer airlines that do charge for checked luggage because they give me the feeling I'm not paying for something I don't use.
 
User avatar
lesfalls
Posts: 3512
Joined: Fri Dec 06, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: Schumer: Airlines Shouldn't Charge Extra for Overhead Bin

Mon Jan 23, 2017 8:58 pm

Totally agree with him. Quite happy to see someone in the gov going against this new "system".
Lufthansa: Einfach ein bisschen besser.
 
nikeherc
Posts: 679
Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2012 8:40 pm

Re: Schumer: Airlines Shouldn't Charge Extra for Overhead Bin

Mon Jan 23, 2017 9:01 pm

Folks, be careful what you ask for. The government decided to intervene in the funeral industry many years ago. At the time, funeral homes generally charged an inflated price for the casket. That price included embalming, use of the funeral home for services and visitation, the hearse, family cars, a car for the minister and a car for the pall bearers. Also generally included were thank you cards, a guest registry, and other services. The feds intervened and forced funeral homes to charge for each and every thing or service provided separately. Now they simply inflate the price of everything. I don't think funerals are any cheaper and are probably more expensive, but at least you know what you are paying for. This is the model that low priced carriers have brought to flying, but competition has brought to air travel. There is a major difference. Most people don't plan ahead for a death. They pick a funeral home and there was some element of price gouging. People do tend to price shop for air fares and go with the lowest prices. Instead of regulating the prices and what they include, the government should require full disclosure. My main concern is that if the government gets back in to economic regulation of airlines and their services, it will be like almost everything else they do, not better.
DC6 to 777 and most things in between
 
PSAjet17
Posts: 375
Joined: Thu Dec 11, 2003 5:50 am

Re: Schumer: Airlines Shouldn't Charge Extra for Overhead Bin

Mon Jan 23, 2017 9:04 pm

The Senator needs to go back and get his facts straight. The charge to use the overhead bin is only for those passengers who are on the new "Basic" fares. These are the fares that do not allow advanced seat assignments and limit the carry on to one item that fits under the seat in front of you. This is a get your ticket at the lowest rate fare and that is why it has all the restrictions.
Those that buy a ticket on all other fares are allowed to use the overhead bins without charge.
 
User avatar
richcam427
Posts: 141
Joined: Tue Feb 28, 2012 1:55 pm

Re: Schumer: Airlines Shouldn't Charge Extra for Overhead Bin

Mon Jan 23, 2017 9:05 pm

PatrickZ80 wrote:
richcam427 wrote:
I can see charging for 2+ checked bags, but it should be assumed that each person travelling is going to be bringing a checked bag onboard.


Assumed wrong! I know enough people (including myself) that never check any luggage for a flight. It's hand luggage only. I got a small suitcase that exactly fits the dimentions hand luggage is allowed to be and that's all I'm taking with me. Of course there are airlines that even charge me for bringing that small suitcase on board (Wizzair for example). If that's what it takes I just pay that.

Taking hand luggage only with you saves you a lot of time at both the check-in desk and the luggage belt. No need to visit either of them (I use online check-in if possible). I don't care what they charge for checked luggage, I don't have any anyway. Honestly, I prefer airlines that do charge for checked luggage because they give me the feeling I'm not paying for something I don't use.


Then you're in the minority. That's irrelevant anyway. Even if you don't have any luggage, for the purposes of weight and balance you're still counted as having luggage based on your flight distance. We weigh bags before being put on the aircraft only to make sure they don't exceed the maximum weight allowed per bag, which is the standard weight we use per-passenger when calculating load and CG. That way there is always a safety margin that prevents overloading the aircraft.
Last edited by richcam427 on Mon Jan 23, 2017 9:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
klakzky123
Posts: 691
Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2016 4:05 am

Re: Schumer: Airlines Shouldn't Charge Extra for Overhead Bin

Mon Jan 23, 2017 9:08 pm

I don't agree with him but one thing that I wouldn't mind taking a look at is the process of increasing the price of a particular item (bag or carryon) depending on where you are in the process. So if you make it to boarding but didn't buy a carryon, Spirit charges you $100. That strikes me as rather predatory. Many people aren't regular travelers and the whole a la carte model really preys on their ignorance of the process. Its fine to charge for a carry-on but inflating the price to a pretty crazy level because a customer didn't understand the process is a little harsh.

At the end, regulating that might not be feasible, but its at least worth considering.
 
Adipocere
Posts: 334
Joined: Sat Jun 27, 2015 9:35 am

Re: Schumer: Airlines Shouldn't Charge Extra for Overhead Bin

Mon Jan 23, 2017 9:11 pm

I don't want the Senator controlling what the airlines can or cannot charge for. However I would want the government to step in and do something about how these nickel and dime fees are being disclosed to the customer. Today most airlines just show a price and then sweep all additional fees and charges into another obscure "baggage fee" webpage with a bazillion options and exclusions. If the airlines IT is smart enough to dynamically offer a price for my ticket they can also offer up the baggage fee, carry on fee, life raft fee or any other fee the bean counters dream of right there and then with an option to buy up right there.
 
AtlasRise
Posts: 17
Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2016 5:45 pm

Re: Schumer: Airlines Shouldn't Charge Extra for Overhead Bin

Mon Jan 23, 2017 9:13 pm

commavia wrote:

Fine. As said, we can certainly re-regulate - partially or fully - the domestic airline industry. And the result is that fares will rise. It's as simple as that. What the government would in effect be doing is forcing those who don't use these ancillary services to subsidize them for other people. Thanks, but no thanks. As both a tax payer and frequent flyer, that is absolutely not a public policy I'd support - and I'm quite confident I'm not the only one.


You're certainly not the only one. What if pax actually chose not to do business with said airline if they don't like the fees/policies instead of know-nothing senators proposing unnecessary regulations? That's kind of how the free-market works. Schumer clearly has an agenda against free enterprise.
 
harleydriver
Posts: 91
Joined: Tue May 18, 2010 1:09 pm

Re: Schumer: Airlines Shouldn't Charge Extra for Overhead Bin

Mon Jan 23, 2017 9:16 pm

ULCC carriers have found a market and are doing quite well. I have flown Frontier in the past and just had my first flight on Spirit last weekend and I knew exactly what I was getting for the fare I purchased. I felt the fare was great and I knew what I would be traveling with for personal belongings. There were no surprises on the website, everything was clearly laid out as to what I would be charged with. If I wanted a level of service that exceeded Spirit I could have flown AA for more than three times the cost of what I paid for on Spirit and I used their website to reserve my hotel and car rental which still was far under what I would have paid for just airfare at AA. I don't understand what the disagreements are. You want more, you pay more. Same thing with restaurants, you can go fast food and pay cheaper but wait in line at the counter and then sit down or have a nice sit down meal and pay for the service and better food. It's all market driven. If no one flew on the ULCC carriers they would go out of business and there obviously wouldn't be a market for their service but obviously there is. I just want friendly service and on both Frontier and Spirit the ground staff and flight attendants couldn't have been nicer.
Department of Redundancy Department
 
User avatar
richcam427
Posts: 141
Joined: Tue Feb 28, 2012 1:55 pm

Re: Schumer: Airlines Shouldn't Charge Extra for Overhead Bin

Mon Jan 23, 2017 9:18 pm

AtlasRise wrote:
commavia wrote:

Fine. As said, we can certainly re-regulate - partially or fully - the domestic airline industry. And the result is that fares will rise. It's as simple as that. What the government would in effect be doing is forcing those who don't use these ancillary services to subsidize them for other people. Thanks, but no thanks. As both a tax payer and frequent flyer, that is absolutely not a public policy I'd support - and I'm quite confident I'm not the only one.


You're certainly not the only one. What if pax actually chose not to do business with said airline if they don't like the fees/policies instead of know-nothing senators proposing unnecessary regulations? That's kind of how the free-market works. Schumer clearly has an agenda against free enterprise.


Precisely. In fact the main reason many people I know fly Southwest is because the free checked bag. But unfortunately in the past 10 or so years, we've seen much of the competition eliminated through bankruptcy and mergers.
 
VSMUT
Posts: 5498
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2016 11:40 am

Re: Schumer: Airlines Shouldn't Charge Extra for Overhead Bin

Mon Jan 23, 2017 9:18 pm

Whoa, airlines are charging for the use of overhead bins now? Which airlines? I always put my carry-on by my feet, but what about my jacket/coat? I don't want to crumble that up down on the floor.
 
ckfred
Posts: 5198
Joined: Wed Apr 25, 2001 12:50 pm

Re: Schumer: Airlines Shouldn't Charge Extra for Overhead Bin

Mon Jan 23, 2017 9:27 pm

A friend of mine is a pilot, having been flying for more than 25 years. Here are issues that prevent an on-time departure, in no particular order:

Late arrivals from a connecting flight, both passengers and baggage
Clearing the stand-by list, particularly, if a flight was overbooked and volunteers were needed
Flight attendants trying to stow bags, especially for passengers in the last group to board

The last issue can lead to problems, because someone doesn't want to gate check a bag, because of electronics, valuables, fragile items, medications, and the like packed in a rollerboard. It can be real problem, when a passenger with very high status boards late because of a late connection or unusually heavy traffic on the way to the airport.

Is this extra revenue? Of course. But, if even 5% of flyers who would otherwise check carry on a bag for the overhead wind up checking it, space in the overhead doesn't wind up at a premium. You don't know how many times I've heard this announcement. "Ladies and gentlemen, we have a very full flight today, and space in the overhead bins will be at a preium. If you have an item that you would be willing to check, we will check it for free today, to your final destination."

Then, the agents start watching the bag sizer and wind up being a bit aggressive on what does and doesn't fit, in order to get more bags into the hold.
 
caverunner17
Posts: 267
Joined: Tue Jun 14, 2016 9:50 pm

Re: Schumer: Airlines Shouldn't Charge Extra for Overhead Bin

Mon Jan 23, 2017 9:32 pm

AtlasRise wrote:
commavia wrote:

Fine. As said, we can certainly re-regulate - partially or fully - the domestic airline industry. And the result is that fares will rise. It's as simple as that. What the government would in effect be doing is forcing those who don't use these ancillary services to subsidize them for other people. Thanks, but no thanks. As both a tax payer and frequent flyer, that is absolutely not a public policy I'd support - and I'm quite confident I'm not the only one.


You're certainly not the only one. What if pax actually chose not to do business with said airline if they don't like the fees/policies instead of know-nothing senators proposing unnecessary regulations? That's kind of how the free-market works. Schumer clearly has an agenda against free enterprise.

What you're missing is that the Unites States is not a free market in any way, shape or form. If it were a true free market, you'd see many monopolies, less safety standards and less consumer rights.

The fact that an individual can't be more than 3 seats away from an aisle means carriers can't squeeze in 4-4-4 into A380's or create 3-4 737's. That's a regulation. Minimum fuel requirements -- a regulation. The Auto industry is full of these regulations. Seatbelts. Airbags. Rearview mirrors, and now Backup cameras.

The reality is that as more consolidation has occurred in the US airline industry, competition has gone down. You can claim "vote with your wallet" all you want, but the reality is that choice has dwindled, especially if you don't live at a large city. Other industries (like the auto industry) have huge amounts of competition so there is always an alternate. For many in the US, there just isn't much competition anymore.
 
AtlasRise
Posts: 17
Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2016 5:45 pm

Re: Schumer: Airlines Shouldn't Charge Extra for Overhead Bin

Mon Jan 23, 2017 9:36 pm

richcam427 wrote:

Precisely. In fact the main reason many people I know fly Southwest is because the free checked bag. But unfortunately in the past 10 or so years, we've seen much of the competition eliminated through bankruptcy and mergers.


The argument you will hear from Schumer, Blumenthal, or others, is that WN doesn't fly everywhere that other carriers fly so the pax cannot always choose a carrier that doesn't charge the fee. So what. If there's a market for it, the US domestic industry is mature enough that someone will fly the route. If not, they will lose $ or not fly it. Enough with over-regulation.
 
coolian2
Posts: 2483
Joined: Sun Oct 22, 2006 3:34 pm

Re: Schumer: Airlines Shouldn't Charge Extra for Overhead Bin

Mon Jan 23, 2017 9:42 pm

I personally do agree the basic fare is stupid. I fly with a backpack that I have never failed to kick under the seat in front of me and still sit comfortably (and I'm 6'4). I like it there because it's less annoying than going to the overhead bin or loading up my seat pocket.

On a basic fare I'm going to get completely bitched out for it even though it was never going in the overhead bin anyway. Essentially I will pay more to not use something I was never going to use in the first place.
Q300/ATR72-600/737-200/-300/-400/-700/-800/A320/767-200/-300/757-200/777-300ER/
747-200/-300/-400/ER/A340-300/A380-800/MD-83/-88/CRJ-700/-900
 
AtlasRise
Posts: 17
Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2016 5:45 pm

Re: Schumer: Airlines Shouldn't Charge Extra for Overhead Bin

Mon Jan 23, 2017 9:43 pm

caverunner17 wrote:
AtlasRise wrote:
commavia wrote:

Fine. As said, we can certainly re-regulate - partially or fully - the domestic airline industry. And the result is that fares will rise. It's as simple as that. What the government would in effect be doing is forcing those who don't use these ancillary services to subsidize them for other people. Thanks, but no thanks. As both a tax payer and frequent flyer, that is absolutely not a public policy I'd support - and I'm quite confident I'm not the only one.


You're certainly not the only one. What if pax actually chose not to do business with said airline if they don't like the fees/policies instead of know-nothing senators proposing unnecessary regulations? That's kind of how the free-market works. Schumer clearly has an agenda against free enterprise.

What you're missing is that the Unites States is not a free market in any way, shape or form. If it were a true free market, you'd see many monopolies, less safety standards and less consumer rights.

The fact that an individual can't be more than 3 seats away from an aisle means carriers can't squeeze in 4-4-4 into A380's or create 3-4 737's. That's a regulation. Minimum fuel requirements -- a regulation. The Auto industry is full of these regulations. Seatbelts. Airbags. Rearview mirrors, and now Backup cameras.

The reality is that as more consolidation has occurred in the US airline industry, competition has gone down. You can claim "vote with your wallet" all you want, but the reality is that choice has dwindled, especially if you don't live at a large city. Other industries (like the auto industry) have huge amounts of competition so there is always an alternate. For many in the US, there just isn't much competition anymore.


Im not missing anything because I never said that the US has a 100% free market and you're talking about safety regulations which are obviously necessary. I'm talking about regulating fares. If you want re-regulation, bring back the CAB and expect fares to increase.
 
jwvw89
Posts: 39
Joined: Tue Sep 15, 2015 11:02 pm

Re: Schumer: Airlines Shouldn't Charge Extra for Overhead Bin

Mon Jan 23, 2017 9:46 pm

Let the market decide this issue don't legislate and regulate it. Consumers will vote with their wallets whether this is something that they think is fair especially since there are alternatives to paying for these fees. Currently, they can choose to fly WN, B6 and AS and avoid these Basic Economy fares and other new fares from the legacies. If the the legacies start to see traffic stagnate, you can bet that they will re-think some of these initiatives.
 
deltal1011man
Posts: 5399
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2005 9:17 am

Re: Schumer: Airlines Shouldn't Charge Extra for Overhead Bin

Mon Jan 23, 2017 9:47 pm

caverunner17 wrote:

The reality is that as more consolidation has occurred in the US airline industry, competition has gone down. You can claim "vote with your wallet" all you want, but the reality is that choice has dwindled, especially if you don't live at a large city. Other industries (like the auto industry) have huge amounts of competition so there is always an alternate. For many in the US, there just isn't much competition anymore.

uh really? because the second largest US carrier doesn't charge for overhead space and if DL sees a revenue premium from it, they won't start.

Of course they won't see a revenue premium for it. Just like the checked bag fees. The only US carrier not charging for those can't (right now) from IT issues.

So yes, even with 4 main carriers, free-market thinking works just fine. Even in those smaller markets people will fly AA or UA over DL to save 5 bucks even if they have to pay for overhead space.

All one has to do is look at the margins airlines like NK are posting to see that the market is moving along with unbundling fares just fine. The US4 have no choice but to do the same.
 
User avatar
TVNWZ
Posts: 2307
Joined: Fri Feb 17, 2006 9:28 am

Re: Schumer: Airlines Shouldn't Charge Extra for Overhead Bin

Mon Jan 23, 2017 9:57 pm

I think the only fair way to price tickets is by weight. Since the weight carried around affects what it costs the airline to operate, the most fair and efficient way would be prices for total weight. You weigh 200 pounds and want to carry 100 pounds of luggage/carry on then your fare is $300 for a trip. If you weigh 120 pounds and want to just take 25 pounds of stuff your fare would be $145 for the trip. Pay your own weigh so to speak.
 
User avatar
EA CO AS
Posts: 15828
Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2001 8:54 am

Re: Schumer: Airlines Shouldn't Charge Extra for Overhead Bin

Mon Jan 23, 2017 10:00 pm

Schumer: Airlines Shouldn't Charge Extra for Overhead Bin

They're not; they're charging less for not using it. The "regular" fare includes the use of the overhead; the watered-down, I-want-to-fly-as-cheaply-as-possible-no-matter-what option is a reduced fare if you only use the space under the seat in front of you.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
User avatar
EA CO AS
Posts: 15828
Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2001 8:54 am

Re: Schumer: Airlines Shouldn't Charge Extra for Overhead Bin

Mon Jan 23, 2017 10:02 pm

jwvw89 wrote:
Let the market decide this issue don't legislate and regulate it.


The same can be said of checked baggage fees; AS elected not to go along with them, assuming they'd receive a windfall of "goodwill bookings" from customers booking away from fee-charging airlines.

Except for one thing; it didn't happen. Customers just kept on flying the other carriers and paying the fees. Sure, they'd grumble and whine, but they paid them anyway.

At which point AS (rightfully) said, "Well obviously the market is willing to accept this," and started charging bag fees.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
User avatar
compensateme
Posts: 3279
Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2009 4:17 am

Re: Schumer: Airlines Shouldn't Charge Extra for Overhead Bin

Mon Jan 23, 2017 10:05 pm

EA CO AS wrote:
Schumer: Airlines Shouldn't Charge Extra for Overhead Bin

They're not; they're charging less for not using it. The "regular" fare includes the use of the overhead; the watered-down, I-want-to-fly-as-cheaply-as-possible-no-matter-what option is a reduced fare if you only use the space under the seat in front of you.


Really? Then why does UA expect to earn $1B by 2020 for "unbundling?"

This is just an effort to push a perpetual price increase, no different from how many hotels charge hefty "resort fees." You know, those ancient motel-style roadside inns in Florida that are hardly resorts and whack on an additional $15/night. The fee is what it is, and let's stop pretending it's something it's not.
We don’t care what your next flight is.
 
caverunner17
Posts: 267
Joined: Tue Jun 14, 2016 9:50 pm

Re: Schumer: Airlines Shouldn't Charge Extra for Overhead Bin

Mon Jan 23, 2017 10:10 pm

deltal1011man wrote:
caverunner17 wrote:

The reality is that as more consolidation has occurred in the US airline industry, competition has gone down. You can claim "vote with your wallet" all you want, but the reality is that choice has dwindled, especially if you don't live at a large city. Other industries (like the auto industry) have huge amounts of competition so there is always an alternate. For many in the US, there just isn't much competition anymore.

uh really? because the second largest US carrier doesn't charge for overhead space and if DL sees a revenue premium from it, they won't start.

Of course they won't see a revenue premium for it. Just like the checked bag fees. The only US carrier not charging for those can't (right now) from IT issues.

So yes, even with 4 main carriers, free-market thinking works just fine. Even in those smaller markets people will fly AA or UA over DL to save 5 bucks even if they have to pay for overhead space.

All one has to do is look at the margins airlines like NK are posting to see that the market is moving along with unbundling fares just fine. The US4 have no choice but to do the same.

If they charge the same, which they won't. If UA/AA are already $40 o/w more expensive than F9/NK, all this will do is make them $40+25 more expensive. It's not as if UA/AA is actually going to compete with the ULCC on their day-to-day pricing.

Anyone can claim "race to the bottom" all they want. What this senator is proposing is a floor to that bottom. That is all and frankly, I agree. Almost nobody travels without some kind of luggage - whether that's a standard sized carry-on or a checked bag. If the options are $100 O/W + $25 checked/carry on bag fee or $115 with free baggage, I'd take the $115. Unbundling doesn't drop the final costs to the pax.
 
User avatar
richcam427
Posts: 141
Joined: Tue Feb 28, 2012 1:55 pm

Re: Schumer: Airlines Shouldn't Charge Extra for Overhead Bin

Mon Jan 23, 2017 10:14 pm

AtlasRise wrote:
richcam427 wrote:

Precisely. In fact the main reason many people I know fly Southwest is because the free checked bag. But unfortunately in the past 10 or so years, we've seen much of the competition eliminated through bankruptcy and mergers.


The argument you will hear from Schumer, Blumenthal, or others, is that WN doesn't fly everywhere that other carriers fly so the pax cannot always choose a carrier that doesn't charge the fee. So what. If there's a market for it, the US domestic industry is mature enough that someone will fly the route. If not, they will lose $ or not fly it. Enough with over-regulation.


Where did I say anything about over-regulation? I actually said a couple posts up that the government should keep out the airline industry for the most part. Did you even read my post or what?
 
AEROFAN
Posts: 1873
Joined: Wed Aug 04, 2004 9:47 am

Re: Schumer: Airlines Shouldn't Charge Extra for Overhead Bin

Mon Jan 23, 2017 10:17 pm

deltal1011man wrote:
AEROFAN wrote:
TheOldDude wrote:
If Sen. Schumer thinks this issue is the ONE aviation issue deserving of his time, we're either in great shape, or we're doomed.


Right, because it is more important to discuss how many people showed up at an inauguration event...
We the consumers elected Schumer to work on our behalf. Enough with the nickle and diming already.

Uh no. WE didn't. Not sure you understand how senators are elected but i didn't vote for him. Nor do i give a rats ass about his opinion.

If the government wants to go back to paying for the airline industries losses then fine. If not, airlines aren't a public service and Schumer needs to butt out. The market will decide. Its economics 101. (I know I know, science is only right when it backs up your opinion. If it doesn't then science is wrong.)


I am fully aware of how the political process works. Perhaps you are not. I lived in NYC until a year ago and during that time I voted for Schumer.
Yes the market will decide... Like how it decided what happened in the global economy 2007/2008 right? Economics 201?
“You are not entitled to your opinion. You are entitled to your informed opinion. No one is entitled to be ignorant.” ~Harlan Ellison~

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos