dtw2hyd
Posts: 7507
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:11 pm

Re: Emirates Mass Layoffs

Sat Jan 28, 2017 1:39 am

scbriml wrote:
Yeah, over 30 years of profits and traffic growth, what were they thinking? I think know they have a better idea how to run an airline than you.

Your hatred of EK is quite astonishing. What did they do to you?


Believe it or not, EK employees are the hardest working airline employees in the world, I don't want it to go down because of management's strategic mistakes.

$24 Billion revenue, entire fleet lease cost is less than $3 Billion/year, every other sister concern propping you up, still you are resorting to creative techniques to make ends meet.

You can SLB planes and show profits year after year, until you no longer can do so because you are deep in debt and the planes you ordered have no resale potential or residual value.

There is a meme "If paid enough, would say motor oil tastes like chocolate sauce".
 
emiratesdriver
Posts: 274
Joined: Tue Dec 27, 2016 9:04 pm

Re: Emirates Mass Layoffs

Sat Jan 28, 2017 1:51 am

A few things need clearing up.

Aircraft ARE being parked, and this is continuing to be done by the use of "virtual" parking, or variable usage. For those that don't understand the concept, you get 5 airframes to cover 3 airframes normal workload etc etc. Most of those frames are A380's, and I counted 9 down in the "S" stands while we waited to depart from 30R along with 5 in front of the hangers, and a couple in the engine bays.
A big reason some 777-300's have been held onto is simple, EK don't possess enough 777-300ER sims, so they must utilise their 200/300 sims for initial and recurrent training, as such they must also operate the RR powered variant..hence 300's still flying.
Lastly, why the hate? Most of it comes from current or former employees, that should give you an idea of the environment which from a pilots perspective means many of us are in the advanced stage of our exit plans.
 
catiii
Posts: 3260
Joined: Mon Mar 31, 2008 1:18 am

Re: Emirates Mass Layoffs

Sat Jan 28, 2017 2:39 am

scbriml wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
Three major strategic failures
1) Only VLAs - fail
2) Banked hub - fail
3) Huge marketing expenditure - fail.


Yeah, over 30 years of profits and traffic growth, what were they thinking? I think know they have a better idea how to run an airline than you.

Your hatred of EK is quite astonishing. What did they do to you?


I have no hatred for EK, but with $11B in subsidies since 2004 alone, they better have traffic growth. :stirthepot:
 
catiii
Posts: 3260
Joined: Mon Mar 31, 2008 1:18 am

Re: Emirates Mass Layoffs

Sat Jan 28, 2017 2:41 am

emiratesdriver wrote:
A few things need clearing up.

Aircraft ARE being parked, and this is continuing to be done by the use of "virtual" parking, or variable usage. For those that don't understand the concept, you get 5 airframes to cover 3 airframes normal workload etc etc. Most of those frames are A380's, and I counted 9 down in the "S" stands while we waited to depart from 30R along with 5 in front of the hangers, and a couple in the engine bays.
A big reason some 777-300's have been held onto is simple, EK don't possess enough 777-300ER sims, so they must utilise their 200/300 sims for initial and recurrent training, as such they must also operate the RR powered variant..hence 300's still flying.
Lastly, why the hate? Most of it comes from current or former employees, that should give you an idea of the environment which from a pilots perspective means many of us are in the advanced stage of our exit plans.


Thanks for these insights. What is the morale in the pilot group these days?
 
anshabhi
Posts: 2143
Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2016 10:40 am

Re: Emirates Mass Layoffs

Sat Jan 28, 2017 2:42 am

One major reason for hatred is the illegitimate flying rights it got in India till 2011.

catiii wrote:

Thanks for these insights. What is the morale in the pilot group these days?


See this:
http://www.pprune.org/middle-east-44/
 
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KruegerFlaps
Posts: 251
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2016 6:17 am

Re: Emirates Mass Layoffs

Sat Jan 28, 2017 4:44 am

catiii wrote:
I have no hatred for EK, but with $11B in subsidies since 2004 alone, they better have traffic growth. :stirthepot:

Consider pot stirred. :wink2:

Only $11B. To read regular posters here, I would have thought they received a lot more.

No doubt reliable links showing evidence, rather than innuendo, rumour and assertions, will be forthcoming. I really do live in hope of seeing that evidence. Surely security at EK can't be greater than it is in the Pentagon. Wikileaks, where are you? :smile:
Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves. - William Pitt Speech, 1783
 
9w748capt
Posts: 1716
Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2008 10:27 am

Re: Emirates Mass Layoffs

Sat Jan 28, 2017 5:20 am

[twoid][/twoid]
anshabhi wrote:
One major reason for hatred is the illegitimate flying rights it got in India till 2011.

catiii wrote:

Thanks for these insights. What is the morale in the pilot group these days?


See this:
http://www.pprune.org/middle-east-44/


Wow... Some interesting posts there for sure. What struck me right away though is that no discussion regarding EY is allowed - wow! Too un-islamic I suppose.
 
Planesmart
Posts: 2891
Joined: Sun Dec 05, 2004 3:18 am

Re: Emirates Mass Layoffs

Sat Jan 28, 2017 6:04 am

dtw2hyd wrote:
$24 Billion revenue, entire fleet lease cost is less than $3 Billion/year..............

That's for two reasons: One. Not every aircraft in the EK fleet is leased. Two. Because EK are buying in volume, and negotiating purchase prices and funding to match.
Don't let facts get in the way of your fiction.
 
Planesmart
Posts: 2891
Joined: Sun Dec 05, 2004 3:18 am

Re: Emirates Mass Layoffs

Sat Jan 28, 2017 6:26 am

emiratesdriver wrote:
Aircraft ARE being parked, and this is continuing to be done by the use of "virtual" parking, or variable usage. For those that don't understand the concept, you get 5 airframes to cover 3 airframes normal workload etc etc. Most of those frames are A380's, and I counted 9 down in the "S" stands while we waited to depart from 30R along with 5 in front of the hangers, and a couple in the engine bays.

Looking at the latest leasor quarterly reports, average EK daily utilisation was 11.5 to 13.5 hours, within the mid-range utilisation agreed with leasors.

If your claim is true, that for every 5 aircraft owned/leased, EK really only need 3, the fleet is currently under-utilised by a factor of 40%. Extrapolating your 60% claim use, if the fleet was 100% utilised (no parking rotation), these aircraft would have averaged 19 to 22.5 hours use per day, well outside even the high-range utilisation threshold.

Why let facts get in the way of a good story?
 
emiratesdriver
Posts: 274
Joined: Tue Dec 27, 2016 9:04 pm

Re: Emirates Mass Layoffs

Sat Jan 28, 2017 6:58 am

Planesmart, What I used was an EXAMPLE, not the real world example, but an example to illustrate the concept.
Far easier to take an hour or two here and there and hide other frames in unplanned maintenance.
The people at the sharp end have eyes and ears, statistics can be used to prove anything you want them too.
 
Planesmart
Posts: 2891
Joined: Sun Dec 05, 2004 3:18 am

Re: Emirates Mass Layoffs

Sat Jan 28, 2017 7:12 am

emiratesdriver wrote:
Planesmart, What I used was an EXAMPLE, not the real world example, but an example to illustrate the concept.
Far easier to take an hour or two here and there and hide other frames in unplanned maintenance.
The people at the sharp end have eyes and ears, statistics can be used to prove anything you want them too.

So you are promoting a concept, otherwise known as fiction, NOT a fact.

If aircraft are undergoing unplanned maintenance (or pretend maintenance?), and you are 'at the sharp end' with 'eyes and ears', please provide the registrations of these 'other' frames, so your concept can be confirmed or denied.
 
SCQ83
Posts: 5500
Joined: Wed Oct 03, 2012 8:32 pm

Re: Emirates Mass Layoffs

Sat Jan 28, 2017 7:22 am

It is clear that EK thrives on expensive oil for a number of reasons:

1) Cheap oil makes more Europe-Asia routes (coupled with more efficient planes like the B787) feasible. No need to change planes in the desert.

2) Expensive oil makes Qatar and the UAE more important at a global level so they can negotiate more frequencies with any country. However when oil is cheap, UAE Qatar or Saudi are completely irrelevant countries that nobody cares about. So why granting more rights to those countries (and their carriers)?

3) Cheap oil has a massive impact in the local economy and consequently in the local demand of the Gulf markets.
 
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KruegerFlaps
Posts: 251
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2016 6:17 am

Re: Emirates Mass Layoffs

Sat Jan 28, 2017 7:47 am

9w748capt wrote:
What struck me right away though is that no discussion regarding EY is allowed - wow! Too un-islamic I suppose.

Not really. Religion has little, if anything, to do with it. Most companies have policies (and even more so government instrumentalities) prohibit their employees publicly commenting on internal matters without prior approval. Why do you think that members who write in forums use screen names, rather than their real names? The same applies to people here who comment on AA or QF, or any other airline, if they re actually employed by an airline or a company that does business with an airline.
Last edited by KruegerFlaps on Sat Jan 28, 2017 7:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves. - William Pitt Speech, 1783
 
evanb
Posts: 852
Joined: Thu Jan 07, 2016 3:26 pm

Re: Emirates Mass Layoffs

Sat Jan 28, 2017 9:57 am

KruegerFlaps wrote:
Only $11B. To read regular posters here, I would have thought they received a lot more.


My thoughts exactly, I read somewhere on the internets that it was even higher, and we all know what Winston Churchill once said, "if you read it on the internet it must be true", or was that Abraham Lincoln? :-P
 
evanb
Posts: 852
Joined: Thu Jan 07, 2016 3:26 pm

Re: Emirates Mass Layoffs

Sat Jan 28, 2017 10:04 am

Planesmart wrote:
Looking at the latest leasor quarterly reports, average EK daily utilisation was 11.5 to 13.5 hours, within the mid-range utilisation agreed with leasors.


There is evidence to suggest that this is above average. There is nice data from the MIT Airline Data Project which estimates "Average Daily Block Hour Utilization of Total Widebody Fleet" for US carriers. The most recent data (2015) has American at 10.6, Delta at 12.9 and United at 11.6 block hours per day. Given the size of their A380 fleet and some of the operational challenges described in this threat, 11.5 wouldn't be poor, and 13.5 would be stellar!
 
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scbriml
Posts: 18117
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

Re: Emirates Mass Layoffs

Sat Jan 28, 2017 11:32 am

KruegerFlaps wrote:
No doubt reliable links showing evidence, rather than innuendo, rumour and assertions, will be forthcoming. I really do live in hope of seeing that evidence.


Good luck with that. It's never materialised in the endless EK threads in which its regularly claimed. Must be one of those new-fangled "alternative facts".
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
catiii
Posts: 3260
Joined: Mon Mar 31, 2008 1:18 am

Re: Emirates Mass Layoffs

Sun Jan 29, 2017 2:32 am

KruegerFlaps wrote:
catiii wrote:
I have no hatred for EK, but with $11B in subsidies since 2004 alone, they better have traffic growth. :stirthepot:

Consider pot stirred. :wink2:

Only $11B. To read regular posters here, I would have thought they received a lot more.

No doubt reliable links showing evidence, rather than innuendo, rumour and assertions, will be forthcoming. I really do live in hope of seeing that evidence. Surely security at EK can't be greater than it is in the Pentagon. Wikileaks, where are you? :smile:


That $11b is the number the Fair Skies crowd came up with. It's on their site.
 
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WarRI1
Posts: 13294
Joined: Thu Sep 20, 2007 10:51 am

Re: Emirates Mass Layoffs

Sun Jan 29, 2017 3:09 am

As the Corporate Mantra goes here. "All done for the good of the corporation" As with all corporations, I have not one Iota of sympathy for them. The little people pay for the mistakes of the big people who make the big money.
It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
 
Waterbomber
Posts: 849
Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2016 11:51 am

Re: Emirates Mass Layoffs

Sun Jan 29, 2017 3:32 am

When at any given time 25% of the A380 fleet is on the ground at an airport, not parked at the gates, you can start to ask yourself questions.

As for their utilisation numbers published above, it's not exceptionally high for a fleet of widebodies based in the middle of no-where.
You can't compare them to U.S. airline widebody utilisation when those are doing a lot of TATL and domestic runs with a lot of ground time.
That's if they are reporting real numbers, which by itself should be taken with a bucket of salt.
 
waly777
Posts: 754
Joined: Sun Oct 07, 2012 7:11 pm

Re: Emirates Mass Layoffs

Sun Jan 29, 2017 7:10 am

catiii wrote:
KruegerFlaps wrote:
catiii wrote:
I have no hatred for EK, but with $11B in subsidies since 2004 alone, they better have traffic growth. :stirthepot:

Consider pot stirred. :wink2:

Only $11B. To read regular posters here, I would have thought they received a lot more.

No doubt reliable links showing evidence, rather than innuendo, rumour and assertions, will be forthcoming. I really do live in hope of seeing that evidence. Surely security at EK can't be greater than it is in the Pentagon. Wikileaks, where are you? :smile:


That $11b is the number the Fair Skies crowd came up with. It's on their site.


It was proven to be BS as the supposed subsidies were also available to all airlines using dxb. It's amusing that the fair skies folks ommited the bail out funds they received from the US govt post 2001 nor bankruptcy protection. Hypocrisy at it's finest.
The test of first-rate intelligence is the ability to hold 2 opposed ideas in the mind concurrently, and still function
 
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AirIndia
Posts: 1260
Joined: Sun Jan 14, 2001 2:43 am

Re: Emirates Mass Layoffs

Sun Jan 29, 2017 10:44 am

anshabhi wrote:
One major reason for hatred is the illegitimate flying rights it got in India till 2011.

Then you shd direct it towards those who allowed for it. Why hate EK?

They asked, they got it. Somone gave it, right?
 
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BobPatterson
Posts: 3416
Joined: Thu Nov 26, 2015 7:18 am

Re: Emirates Mass Layoffs

Sun Jan 29, 2017 12:28 pm

anshabhi wrote:
One major reason for hatred is the illegitimate flying rights it got in India till 2011.


The words "hatred" and "reason" do not belong in the same sentence. One cannot justify the other.
Facts are fragile things. Treat them with care. Sources are important. Alternative facts do not exist.
 
dtw2hyd
Posts: 7507
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:11 pm

Re: Emirates Mass Layoffs

Sun Jan 29, 2017 1:12 pm

waly777 wrote:
It was proven to be BS as the supposed subsidies were also available to all airlines using dxb.


No its not. Allegedly UAE accepted Dubai built an exclusive $7.8B terminal for EK.

The United Arab Emirates spent a staggering $7.8 billion to build an opulent, 11-story air terminal at Dubai International Airport for the sole benefit of its airline, Emirates, according to documents the airline filed with the U.S. government that confirmed one of the most excessive and unapologetic violations of Open Skies policy to date.


http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases ... 34208.html
 
anjin
Posts: 70
Joined: Thu Jul 06, 2006 11:49 pm

Re: Emirates Mass Layoffs

Sun Jan 29, 2017 2:10 pm

Etihad are also laying Staff off also. Maybe sign of things as they are currently
 
CRJ900
Posts: 2367
Joined: Wed Jun 02, 2004 2:48 am

Re: Emirates Mass Layoffs

Sun Jan 29, 2017 4:48 pm

The "Ultimate Airport Dubai" show on National Geographic channel shows a lot of team leaders, supervisors, middle management staff nagging and even yelling at employees at all departments. Is it really necessary to have that many middle management staff? Are employees so inept that they must have someone watching their every move? Must cost a lot of money...
Come, fly the prevailing winds with me
 
mjoelnir
Posts: 9202
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:06 pm

Re: Emirates Mass Layoffs

Sun Jan 29, 2017 6:29 pm

Waterbomber wrote:
When at any given time 25% of the A380 fleet is on the ground at an airport, not parked at the gates, you can start to ask yourself questions.

As for their utilisation numbers published above, it's not exceptionally high for a fleet of widebodies based in the middle of no-where.
You can't compare them to U.S. airline widebody utilisation when those are doing a lot of TATL and domestic runs with a lot of ground time.
That's if they are reporting real numbers, which by itself should be taken with a bucket of salt.


BS, LH and ULH makes utilisation more difficult not easier. You have to hit banks and airport night closing hours on the other side. If Emirates hours of use is similar than big western airlines, that is your prove that Emirates is not parking those birds.
 
emiratesdriver
Posts: 274
Joined: Tue Dec 27, 2016 9:04 pm

Re: Emirates Mass Layoffs

Sun Jan 29, 2017 7:06 pm

BS, LH and ULH makes utilisation more difficult not easier. You have to hit banks and airport night closing hours on the other side. If Emirates hours of use is similar than big western airlines, that is your prove that Emirates is not parking those birds.


Absolute rubbish, what airports are restrictive in real terms that EK operates too? SYD, LHR, FRA, ADL..and one or two more...all of which is planned for and hence the turnarounds are programmed and optimised.
Less than 10% of EKs destinations are curfew restricted...so it's a minor inconvenience which has remained stable with respect utilisation numbers.
As I've said previously, I've had operations people AND engineering staff all state that aircraft are being virtually parked, it's happening, it's a fact, have a look at the 380s all sat in the "S" stands on "unscheduled" maintenance.
 
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thekorean
Posts: 1787
Joined: Mon Dec 05, 2011 9:05 pm

Re: Emirates Mass Layoffs

Sun Jan 29, 2017 8:26 pm

infinit wrote:
They wouldn't bat an eyelid if they want to layoff 10,000 people.. There virtually are no human rights for the millions of foreign labour in the UAE.


I think the ones laid off were relatively well paid foreign workers.
 
hayzel777
Posts: 614
Joined: Wed Mar 16, 2016 3:18 am

Re: Emirates Mass Layoffs

Mon Jan 30, 2017 7:24 am

dtw2hyd wrote:
waly777 wrote:
It was proven to be BS as the supposed subsidies were also available to all airlines using dxb.


No its not. Allegedly UAE accepted Dubai built an exclusive $7.8B terminal for EK.

The United Arab Emirates spent a staggering $7.8 billion to build an opulent, 11-story air terminal at Dubai International Airport for the sole benefit of its airline, Emirates, according to documents the airline filed with the U.S. government that confirmed one of the most excessive and unapologetic violations of Open Skies policy to date.


http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases ... 34208.html

Then Singapore Airlines and China Airlines have also violated open skies then since the office space they both have were built for them by the government. In addition, Singapore Airlines has also received lots of subsidies from the Singapore government or it wouldn't be existent anymore. Why do I not see that Open Skies group having an outcry over it? it is clear what they are trying to do. They are trying to save the market share of US Airlines because the US3 know they cannot compete with the ME3.
 
waly777
Posts: 754
Joined: Sun Oct 07, 2012 7:11 pm

Re: Emirates Mass Layoffs

Mon Jan 30, 2017 8:06 am

dtw2hyd wrote:
waly777 wrote:
It was proven to be BS as the supposed subsidies were also available to all airlines using dxb.


No its not. Allegedly UAE accepted Dubai built an exclusive $7.8B terminal for EK.

The United Arab Emirates spent a staggering $7.8 billion to build an opulent, 11-story air terminal at Dubai International Airport for the sole benefit of its airline, Emirates, according to documents the airline filed with the U.S. government that confirmed one of the most excessive and unapologetic violations of Open Skies policy to date.


http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases ... 34208.html


The Dubai govt also built the terminal the airlines use in Dubai. What is your point?

You'd also have to call all the airlines in the world which use exclusive terminals built fully or partly by their govts as subsidies.

This is why i said majority of their points were BS and they know it too.
 
Waterbomber
Posts: 849
Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2016 11:51 am

Re: Emirates Mass Layoffs

Tue Jan 31, 2017 9:10 pm

When you spend 7.8 billion USD on a terminal building in a county that has 1 million of nationals, ie 7800 USD per national on one structure, you are not subsiding a necessity, you are subsidising a competitive advantage.
 
winginit
Posts: 2622
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2013 9:23 pm

Re: Emirates Mass Layoffs

Tue Jan 31, 2017 9:41 pm

waly777 wrote:
You'd also have to call all the airlines in the world which use exclusive terminals built fully or partly by their govts as subsidies.


and you could absolutely make that case; therefore, both parties of the open skies agreement are clearly in violation of subsidy stipulations and the document should be reviewed correct?

... except EK and the ME3 don't want that document to be reviewed, which is the real difference here.
 
waly777
Posts: 754
Joined: Sun Oct 07, 2012 7:11 pm

Re: Emirates Mass Layoffs

Wed Feb 01, 2017 5:35 am

winginit wrote:
waly777 wrote:
You'd also have to call all the airlines in the world which use exclusive terminals built fully or partly by their govts as subsidies.


and you could absolutely make that case; therefore, both parties of the open skies agreement are clearly in violation of subsidy stipulations and the document should be reviewed correct?

... except EK and the ME3 don't want that document to be reviewed, which is the real difference here.

And yet the US3 do not call out any of these airlines except the ME3, what is the agenda exactly? The same us3 were bailed out by the govt @ some point. Pot calling kettle......
The test of first-rate intelligence is the ability to hold 2 opposed ideas in the mind concurrently, and still function
 
winginit
Posts: 2622
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2013 9:23 pm

Re: Emirates Mass Layoffs

Wed Feb 01, 2017 6:16 am

waly777 wrote:
winginit wrote:
waly777 wrote:
You'd also have to call all the airlines in the world which use exclusive terminals built fully or partly by their govts as subsidies.


and you could absolutely make that case; therefore, both parties of the open skies agreement are clearly in violation of subsidy stipulations and the document should be reviewed correct?

... except EK and the ME3 don't want that document to be reviewed, which is the real difference here.

And yet the US3 do not call out any of these airlines except the ME3, what is the agenda exactly? The same us3 were bailed out by the govt @ some point. Pot calling kettle......


Who else would they call out besides the ME3? Are there other carriers domiciled in countries with open skies agreements with the US that you suspect are in some way subsidized? Pray tell.
 
waly777
Posts: 754
Joined: Sun Oct 07, 2012 7:11 pm

Re: Emirates Mass Layoffs

Wed Feb 01, 2017 6:13 pm

winginit wrote:
waly777 wrote:
winginit wrote:

and you could absolutely make that case; therefore, both parties of the open skies agreement are clearly in violation of subsidy stipulations and the document should be reviewed correct?

... except EK and the ME3 don't want that document to be reviewed, which is the real difference here.

And yet the US3 do not call out any of these airlines except the ME3, what is the agenda exactly? The same us3 were bailed out by the govt @ some point. Pot calling kettle......


Who else would they call out besides the ME3? Are there other carriers domiciled in countries with open skies agreements with the US that you suspect are in some way subsidized? Pray tell.


You are welcome to look @ other middle eastern carriers, including a few in alliances (one starts with S).
You are also welcome to go through the open skies agreements and it's contents as well as the list of countries and you can go ID further carriers which fall under this category.

The us3 saw a threat and tried to hide under a open skies violation which they are also guilty of according to their definitions. The US govt's response over the summer to the issue was telling.

I heard from colleagues @ EK and it seems the "restructuring" really is in full swing.
The test of first-rate intelligence is the ability to hold 2 opposed ideas in the mind concurrently, and still function

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