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77west
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Cathay Pacific - A Dimming / Fallen Star

Fri Jan 27, 2017 9:52 am

As per this article, I have to agree CX does not seem to have the relevance it once had. Your thoughts?

http://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Compani ... of-the-air

True.. But quite sad. CX always was one of my favorites.
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LHRFlyer
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Re: Cathay Pacific - A Dimming / Fallen Star

Fri Jan 27, 2017 10:13 am

Cathay is just having to adjust to the changes to the industry that others like BA have been doing for the past 15 years.

The brand and the network should be strong enough to pull through but they need to work better with partner airlines.
 
downdata
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Re: Cathay Pacific - A Dimming / Fallen Star

Fri Jan 27, 2017 12:31 pm

Product no longer stands out. Whereas service quality is downright terrible
 
scotron11
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Re: Cathay Pacific - A Dimming / Fallen Star

Fri Jan 27, 2017 12:55 pm

downdata wrote:
Product no longer stands out. Whereas service quality is downright terrible


All trip reports are mostly positive on CX, even on their new 359s.
 
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Re: Cathay Pacific - A Dimming / Fallen Star

Fri Jan 27, 2017 1:13 pm

LHRFlyer wrote:
Cathay is just having to adjust to the changes to the industry that others like BA have been doing for the past 15 years.

The brand and the network should be strong enough to pull through but they need to work better with partner airlines.

Yep. The market has changed so drastically since 2002 and Cathay doesn't seem to have done a whole ton about it. Further partnerships with their partners AA, IAG, and JL would help Cathay in some respects here, but between the ME3 to the west and the mainland carriers to the east. If they want to remain relevant on the Kangaroo, I'd tell them to get over themselves and actually partner with QF. On the home front, they have a form of actual competition now in the forms of Hong Kong Airlines and the LCC HK Express. It seems like they just don't want to change their business model and its a shame.
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Re: Cathay Pacific - A Dimming / Fallen Star

Fri Jan 27, 2017 1:32 pm

Fallen star is a bit of a strange analogy. Cathay Pacific has seen its profitable markets get way more competitive.

Regional flying in Asia has become extremely cheap. How is CX going to earn money when 2 week advance purchase fares on major markets like HKG-SIN, BKK, ICN, PEK, NRT are all around 200-300 USD round Trip? The discount airlines have trashed yields regionally.

Long haul flights also have eroded margins. The Chinese airlines have trashed yields as the compete with each other. You can fly from HKG to the USA for $500 round trip economy or $3000 business during low season. The Middle East airlines are also taking Europe to Australia and Southeast Asia. A decade ago, no foreigners would fly the Chinese airlines unless prices were low. Today they operate the newest and most modern fleets with up to date interiors and reasonable service. People aren't making the extra stop in HKG anymore.

HKG nonstop routes have some good yields from high paying passengers, but the service levels that CX had are expensive to maintain. It is a lot more expensive than the low cost airlines. I would not want to be in headquarters at Cathay city. Massive cost reduction is needed.
 
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Re: Cathay Pacific - A Dimming / Fallen Star

Fri Jan 27, 2017 1:48 pm

The same has been said for SQ and QF a few years ago. All companies have their ups and downs. If everything is smooth forever, why pay $$$ to the CEO?

There are works that need to be done for sure. A strategy review and selective cost reduction is overdue. They have been reducing cost but they were reducing at the wrong place. The business class product has definitely deteriorated. But it's still superior to US3 and comparable to airlines like ANA. Their operations capabilities, especially ability to deal with bad weather etc, may need some brush up as evident in the Sapporo fiasco last Christmas.

All in all, they are far from a doomsday situation strategically.
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Re: Cathay Pacific - A Dimming / Fallen Star

Fri Jan 27, 2017 1:54 pm

I think their biggest problem is Inter-Asian flights. Alot of competition from LCCs and alot of low yielding markets. I think their Long Haul routes have better yields and less competition and it seems they are dominating the NA-HKG flights.
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Re: Cathay Pacific - A Dimming / Fallen Star

Fri Jan 27, 2017 2:06 pm

downdata wrote:
Product no longer stands out. Whereas service quality is downright terrible

How often have you flown them? I've flown them a few times in F, J, and premium Y between the US and HKG in the past two years, and they've all been outstanding. Particularly in F. I realize the airline has had some labor issues and is making some major business changes, but I haven't seen a decline in service at all in my experiences with them, and their F seat is outstanding.
 
MaxTrimm
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Re: Cathay Pacific - A Dimming / Fallen Star

Fri Jan 27, 2017 2:27 pm

So many threads about this lately. First Southwest, Jetblue, and now Cathay. All three of which are doing just fine.
 
CXGabriel
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Re: Cathay Pacific - A Dimming / Fallen Star

Fri Jan 27, 2017 2:43 pm

atcsundevil wrote:
downdata wrote:
Product no longer stands out. Whereas service quality is downright terrible

How often have you flown them? I've flown them a few times in F, J, and premium Y between the US and HKG in the past two years, and they've all been outstanding. Particularly in F. I realize the airline has had some labor issues and is making some major business changes, but I haven't seen a decline in service at all in my experiences with them, and their F seat is outstanding.


I agree with you. Just like you, I've flown CX on F, J and PEY between US and HKG a few times in the past couple of years, and I had great services. But in HK, newspaper reports on all sorts of different problems, like Sapporo recently, or rumor of cost cutting and 77W going 3-4-3, are not helping the perception at home. I've read from facebook and other HK news comments from people who thought CX is terrible, and one even said that one would rather fly BA than CX, which I thought is ridiculous. Another thing is that Asians have different standard than Americans, and besides, most Asian carriers (network, like ANA, SQ, Eva, etc) are pretty good compared to US3. Let's face it, not many airlines are worse than US3.

I saw another article talked about CX and SQ as the "fallen stars." https://skift.com/2017/01/20/singapore-airlines-and-cathay-pacific-once-dominated-asian-skies-but-theres-a-new-world-order/
 
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Re: Cathay Pacific - A Dimming / Fallen Star

Fri Jan 27, 2017 2:47 pm

I have to think at times there are people paid to make posts on this site to cause a reaction.

ATC thanks for your post, an objective measure will show that hard and soft product across the checkin, lounge, in flight, and post flight is good value for money.

Usflyer hkg is one of the most competitive markets in the world with over 100 carriers competing. I am sorry if you think that competition is a new concept in hkg, it is a cut throat market.
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sw733
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Re: Cathay Pacific - A Dimming / Fallen Star

Fri Jan 27, 2017 2:51 pm

downdata wrote:
Product no longer stands out. Whereas service quality is downright terrible

Ridiculous. I fly them about 10-15 times each year (between longhaul and regional), usually J but occasionally F and Y, and service has always been fantastic, especially in F and J. They're still my favorite.
 
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compensateme
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Re: Cathay Pacific - A Dimming / Fallen Star

Fri Jan 27, 2017 2:56 pm

MaxTrimm wrote:
So many threads about this lately. First Southwest, Jetblue, and now Cathay. All three of which are doing just fine.


The article has merit; the service standard of the Asian carriers has declined tremendous in recent years. Up until about the late 1990s, there was tremendous regulation in Asia and practically no low cost competition. Cathay, ANA, Singapore, JAL, Eva, etc. were the Gold standard; in the first half of the 2000s, a.netters insisted that if they could offer leading service, certainly the USA-based carriers-could -- all this nonsense about competition was just an excuse. Now Cathay, ANA, Eva, etc. -- long known for their generous legroom -- have been (or will be) updating some of (and most likely all eventually) their 777 to 10-abreast in Economy with 31" pitch. Service still stands out, but the gap has clearly narrowed.
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Re: Cathay Pacific - A Dimming / Fallen Star

Fri Jan 27, 2017 3:02 pm

CXGabriel wrote:
But in HK, newspaper reports on all sorts of different problems, like Sapporo recently, or rumor of cost cutting and 77W going 3-4-3


CTS was closed for several days due Wx, no aircraft were getting in or out. Hotels ran out of food and drinks as ground transportation also stopped. That was totally out of the control of the airline.

When the Wx improved Cx sent several aircraft up to complete the passengers itineraries.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
CXGabriel
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Re: Cathay Pacific - A Dimming / Fallen Star

Fri Jan 27, 2017 3:23 pm

zeke wrote:
CXGabriel wrote:
But in HK, newspaper reports on all sorts of different problems, like Sapporo recently, or rumor of cost cutting and 77W going 3-4-3


CTS was closed for several days due Wx, no aircraft were getting in or out. Hotels ran out of food and drinks as ground transportation also stopped. That was totally out of the control of the airline.

When the Wx improved Cx sent several aircraft up to complete the passengers itineraries.


Exactly! I feel like HK people just like to complain sometimes.

What really costing CX is fuel hedging. I'm glad they are going to make some adjustment on that finally, but is that enough? We will see. Fuel prices are unpredictable, and if fuel price jumps in the next few months, CX would look like a genius!
 
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Re: Cathay Pacific - A Dimming / Fallen Star

Fri Jan 27, 2017 3:38 pm

I think one of the processes CX does very well is service recovery after adverse events.

Every year we deal with typhoons, other events we have recovered from would include volcanic ash in Indonesia, tsunami in Malaysia, Thailand, Fukushima, and closures due to snow and fog.

It attracts very little press, but if your one of the passengers you get looked after a lot different to what a LCC would.
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Re: Cathay Pacific - A Dimming / Fallen Star

Fri Jan 27, 2017 3:41 pm

CX's issue is the location of HKG for connecting traffic. It's far south, so almost every N/A route is a 7000mi+ flight. Also, you are backtracking from both NA and EU if you want to head to Japan, Korea, or Northern China. HKG only makes sense for connecting to SE Asia, southern China and Austrailia (from EU or North Asia)
Last edited by caverunner17 on Fri Jan 27, 2017 3:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Re: Cathay Pacific - A Dimming / Fallen Star

Fri Jan 27, 2017 3:45 pm

caverunner17 wrote:
CX's only issue is the location of HKG for connecting traffic.

It is an issue, but I wouldn't say it is CX's only issue. There is a reason why CX has been shifting more traffic to Cathay Dragon, versus say using smaller planes.
 
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Re: Cathay Pacific - A Dimming / Fallen Star

Fri Jan 27, 2017 3:58 pm

I am a regular passenger that flys between U.S to HKG and mainland China. many people read the news on what's going on with CX, that's their problem between CX and their employees. The HK local social media news are not trust worthy and mostly about rumors. Their pacific competitors has caught up with new aircraft, and interior, along with the service, I still think CX and SQ still on of the best out there in the pacific. in terms of business class, premium economy and economy. SQ had their problems few years ago, and now it's CX, with the way the industry is changing, CX needs a new strategy to get their crown back. it's more like other airlines has caught up in many aspects than CX or even SQ has gone down in their own.
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CXGabriel
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Re: Cathay Pacific - A Dimming / Fallen Star

Fri Jan 27, 2017 4:08 pm

caverunner17 wrote:
CX's issue is the location of HKG for connecting traffic. It's far south, so almost every N/A route is a 7000mi+ flight. Also, you are backtracking from both NA and EU if you want to head to Japan, Korea, or Northern China. HKG only makes sense for connecting to SE Asia, southern China and Austrailia (from EU or North Asia)


Well, for NA flights, you left out connecting to Indian subcontinent. Many transit through HKG to South Asia from NA, based on my experience. That may be one of the few disadvantages of HKG as a hub. HKG does have other geographical advantages, traffic between North Asia and SE Asia, Australia/NZ, South Africa; Europe and Australia/NZ, SE Asia, South China/Taiwan; South Asia and Australia/NZ; NA and SE Asia, South Asia, Taiwan/Southern China, Australia; Middle East to SE Asia, North Asia, Australia/NZ. There could be more, but you get the point. HKG may not be a good hub for NA-North Asia or Europe-Africa, but there are plenty of other connections HKG provides.
 
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Re: Cathay Pacific - A Dimming / Fallen Star

Fri Jan 27, 2017 4:08 pm

caverunner17 wrote:
CX's issue is the location of HKG for connecting traffic.


And yet the location is one of the advantages, there is 120 million people in the perl river delta, and links are improving to the region with new road and rail projects.
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Re: Cathay Pacific - A Dimming / Fallen Star

Fri Jan 27, 2017 4:49 pm

I believe their share ownership is complicated although the majority is Swire.However I wonder whether 'living on their own' is realistic It the changed circumstances that they find themselves in.The 'new' Chinese carriers aren't going to go away - just the opposite - nor are ME3.Perhaps they need to operate as part of a larger family?
 
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Re: Cathay Pacific - A Dimming / Fallen Star

Fri Jan 27, 2017 4:52 pm

CXGabriel wrote:
caverunner17 wrote:
CX's issue is the location of HKG for connecting traffic. It's far south, so almost every N/A route is a 7000mi+ flight. Also, you are backtracking from both NA and EU if you want to head to Japan, Korea, or Northern China. HKG only makes sense for connecting to SE Asia, southern China and Austrailia (from EU or North Asia)


Well, for NA flights, you left out connecting to Indian subcontinent. Many transit through HKG to South Asia from NA, based on my experience. That may be one of the few disadvantages of HKG as a hub. HKG does have other geographical advantages, traffic between North Asia and SE Asia, Australia/NZ, South Africa; Europe and Australia/NZ, SE Asia, South China/Taiwan; South Asia and Australia/NZ; NA and SE Asia, South Asia, Taiwan/Southern China, Australia; Middle East to SE Asia, North Asia, Australia/NZ. There could be more, but you get the point. HKG may not be a good hub for NA-North Asia or Europe-Africa, but there are plenty of other connections HKG provides.


CxGabriel :D the last time i was travelling to YVR i chose CX from HYD-HKG-YVR ,even though i had a moderate transit time at HKG but never mind i would still fly via HKG.I do not want a hassle flying via U.S.A and engulf in the transit visa /TSA/Umpteen checks etc...for that matter Europe is still better.

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Re: Cathay Pacific - A Dimming / Fallen Star

Fri Jan 27, 2017 6:24 pm

I just got back from a CX business class trip SFO-HKG-BKK-HKG-SFO and I have to agree that service has deteriorated dramatically. I haven't been on CX long haul in a few years. Most of my trips to BKK are now on BR since I can get fully flat seats all the way to BKK and not a regional business class seat. CX Flight attendants were pretty indifferent and the food was plain awful. Breadsticks with awful dips as appetizers. Really? BR proves a vastly superior product with pajamas, slippers (what Asian airline doesn't provide slippers???) and you can chose from a menu of about 10 main courses on their website. The only reason I went on CX was because my brother is a MP Gold and even he is thinking of dumping CX.
 
downdata
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Re: Cathay Pacific - A Dimming / Fallen Star

Sat Jan 28, 2017 9:12 am

Well i dont know jow long you flew cx for but last time i flew in W in 17 i had food shoved into my face is the way they served dinner. I distinctly remember the first time i flew SQ in 2006 i thought to my self, wow they are nothing but a more expensive version of CX. How things have changed in the last 10 yrs
 
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Re: Cathay Pacific - A Dimming / Fallen Star

Sat Jan 28, 2017 9:31 am

caverunner17 wrote:
CX's issue is the location of HKG for connecting traffic. It's far south, so almost every N/A route is a 7000mi+ flight. Also, you are backtracking from both NA and EU if you want to head to Japan, Korea, or Northern China. HKG only makes sense for connecting to SE Asia, southern China and Austrailia (from EU or North Asia)

Newsflash: the world doesn't revolve around North America or the EU.

Middle-East aside, HKG is the busiest airport for international pax in Asia.
It didn't get that way from having a bad location.

It's inside the most densely populated area in the world, one that's primed for significant economic growth per capita in the coming decades. And even if one factors N.America in, it's the geographically optimal gateway to most of SE Asia, and a convenient gateway to India and S.Asia as well.

Not to mention it's the most direct way to SYD/MEL if coming from the UK: the great circle passes right over it.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
Cerecl
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Re: Cathay Pacific - A Dimming / Fallen Star

Sat Jan 28, 2017 9:49 am

In some senses, the rise and fall of CX mirror that of Hong Kong. The market space CX used to occupy are being eroded. Taiwan-Chinese mainland flight no longer needs to route through HK, The service standards are no longer outstanding. Other regional player such as CI and Chinese Big3 are catching up. CX lost an opportunity (although not all its own fault) to position itself as a premium airline to a huge market to its North after HK fell out of favour with Mainland customers. There are countless reports of flight attendants applying double standard to customer based on their races and language. Why would people pay more only to receive the same (or even inferior ) product and service?

I personally think CX lost its way a little bit. It is in a fortunate position though that it remains a default choice of many HK people.
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blackbox67
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Re: Cathay Pacific - A Dimming / Fallen Star

Sat Jan 28, 2017 10:04 am

just a sidenote: the Reuters image does not correspond to the underlining cause the image was taken at FRA (from observer point near A5 motorway) not HKG as falsely suggested.
 
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zeke
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Re: Cathay Pacific - A Dimming / Fallen Star

Sat Jan 28, 2017 10:42 am

Celcel I personally think you have no idea what you are talking about.

E.g. The traffic between tpe and hkg has actually increased since direct flights have been made available.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
Cerecl
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Re: Cathay Pacific - A Dimming / Fallen Star

Sat Jan 28, 2017 11:27 am

zeke wrote:
Celcel I personally think you have no idea what you are talking about.

E.g. The traffic between tpe and hkg has actually increased since direct flights have been made available.

Zeke my username is Cerecl
How much of these traffic is carried by CX? What percentage of customers flying from Taiwan to somewhere in China now fly via HK?
Last year I flew twice from SYD to Europe, once with CX, once with an ME airline. The price difference was around $500, and I can tell you there is nothing that justifies the extra cost. Not because CX service and product is not satisfactory, but because the other airline is equally good, and that was with 9Y configuration in 77W.
Surely you can't be unaware of the now tarnished image (rightly or wrongly) of HK in the mind of the mainland customers and the complaints about the attitude of the attendants are real.
CX to me has somewhat of a sentimental value because my first trips on A346 and A343 were both on CX metals (You could have been the pilot!). I do believe however CX needs to think seriously about what niche it wants to occupy and the strategy required to achieve its goal.
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Cerecl
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Re: Cathay Pacific - A Dimming / Fallen Star

Sat Jan 28, 2017 11:28 am

Cerecl wrote:
zeke wrote:
Celcel I personally think you have no idea what you are talking about.

E.g. The traffic between tpe and hkg has actually increased since direct flights have been made available.

Zeke my username is Cerecl
How much of these traffic is carried by CX? What percentage of customers flying from Taiwan to somewhere in China now fly via HK?
Last year I flew twice from SYD to Europe, once with CX, once with an ME airline. The price difference was around $500, and I can tell you there is nothing that justifies the extra cost. Not because CX service and product was not satisfactory, but because the other airline was equally good, and that was with 9Y configuration in 77W.
Surely you can't be unaware of the now tarnished image (rightly or wrongly) of HK in the mind of the mainland customers and the complaints about the attitude of the attendants are real.
CX to me has somewhat of a sentimental value because my first trips on A346 and A343 were both on CX metals (You could have been the pilot!). I do believe however CX needs to think seriously about what niche it wants to occupy and the strategy required to achieve its goal.
Fokker-100 SAAB 340 Q400 E190 717 737 738 763ER 787-8 772 77E 773 77W 747-400 747-400ER A319 A320 A321 A332 A333 A343 A346 A359 A380
 
Cerecl
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Re: Cathay Pacific - A Dimming / Fallen Star

Sat Jan 28, 2017 11:29 am

zeke wrote:
Celcel I personally think you have no idea what you are talking about.

E.g. The traffic between tpe and hkg has actually increased since direct flights have been made available.

Zeke my username is Cerecl
How much of these traffic is carried by CX? What percentage of customers flying from Taiwan to somewhere in China now fly via HK?
Last year I flew twice from SYD to Europe, once with CX, once with an ME airline. The price difference was around $500, and I can tell you there is nothing that justifies the extra cost. Not because CX service and product was not satisfactory, but because the other airline was equally good, and that was with 9Y configuration in 77W.
Surely you can't be unaware of the now tarnished image (rightly or wrongly) of HK in the mind of the mainland customers and the complaints about the attitude of the attendants are real.
CX to me has somewhat of a sentimental value because my first trips on A346 and A343 were both on CX metals (You could have been the pilot!). I do believe however CX needs to think seriously about what niche it wants to occupy and the strategy required to achieve its goals.
Fokker-100 SAAB 340 Q400 E190 717 737 738 763ER 787-8 772 77E 773 77W 747-400 747-400ER A319 A320 A321 A332 A333 A343 A346 A359 A380
 
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Re: Cathay Pacific - A Dimming / Fallen Star

Sat Jan 28, 2017 11:32 am

downdata wrote:
Product no longer stands out. Whereas service quality is downright terrible

I would beg to differ. I just flew CX JFK-MNL with my wife and daughter, and I thought the service was outstanding. I had previously flown two round trips on EVA, and was very happy with them. But I have to say I think CX was better. For one thing, the seat was a lot more comfortable (after my first EVA flight I purchased a cushion to sit on; the seat got quite hard after a few hours. I was unable to bring it on the CX flight but I found I did not need it.) As of now CX has replaced EVA as my airline of choice. I will be returning in June, and probably will not return for another two years (although things may change.) I do not know what my financial situation may be then, or who will offer the best fares. I would have chosen EVA this time had the price been close, but CX beat their price by enough that I went with them instead. Next time I will give CX preference, but the margin I will give them will depend on my financial situation at the time.
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zeke
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Re: Cathay Pacific - A Dimming / Fallen Star

Sat Jan 28, 2017 11:57 am

Cerecl wrote:
Zeke my username is Cerecl
How much of these traffic is carried by CX? What percentage of customers flying from Taiwan to somewhere in China now fly via HK?
Last year I flew twice from SYD to Europe, once with CX, once with an ME airline. The price difference was around $500, and I can tell you there is nothing that justifies the extra cost.


Cerial

Cx probably takes around 20% of the traffic between tpe and hkg, there are numerous operators on the sector, generally I see Eva and China Airlines using larger equipment (744&77W).

As for you experience ex Australia it's great you are offered choice, normally when I dig deeper the cheaper flights have longer overall trip times. Cx will normally always have competitive fare buckets, but at the time you booked for your date/time our flights were more popular and already sold those fare buckets out. It's simple supply and demand, on that date and time we had less supply to sell so prices were higher.

You can blame the Australian federal government for that as the limit has been reached for flights from hkg carriers to the main Australian ports so supply has been artificially constrained at the expense of the consumer.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
Swadian
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Re: Cathay Pacific - A Dimming / Fallen Star

Mon Jan 30, 2017 11:56 pm

compensateme wrote:
MaxTrimm wrote:
So many threads about this lately. First Southwest, Jetblue, and now Cathay. All three of which are doing just fine.


The article has merit; the service standard of the Asian carriers has declined tremendous in recent years. Up until about the late 1990s, there was tremendous regulation in Asia and practically no low cost competition. Cathay, ANA, Singapore, JAL, Eva, etc. were the Gold standard; in the first half of the 2000s, a.netters insisted that if they could offer leading service, certainly the USA-based carriers-could -- all this nonsense about competition was just an excuse. Now Cathay, ANA, Eva, etc. -- long known for their generous legroom -- have been (or will be) updating some of (and most likely all eventually) their 777 to 10-abreast in Economy with 31" pitch. Service still stands out, but the gap has clearly narrowed.


The only one of those that still stands out above the rest is JAL and maybe SQ. Even ME3 is not that great anymore.
 
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Re: Cathay Pacific - A Dimming / Fallen Star

Tue Jan 31, 2017 12:57 am

I'd just like to echo what some have already posted about their recent CX experiences, Cathay is easily my most flown carrier and I continue to have excellent experiences. There are definitely changes that need to be made in regards to their business strategy going forwards but this so called "fall" is greatly exaggerated by those who only look at the numbers. In the airlines 70 year history, they've managed to only post a loss twice which should tell you all you need to know about their ability to recover from difficult times. Its a changing business and the challenges CX faces are not self inflicted as many would like you to believe but rather intense competition from LCC regionals who have ruined yields.

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