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tomaheath
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1st 757 and 767

Sat Jan 28, 2017 2:46 pm

With the first 727,737,747, in Everett what happened to the first 757 and 767? And how did they live there lives?
Thanks.
 
dcaviation
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Re: 1st 757 and 767

Sat Jan 28, 2017 2:50 pm

First 757 is still flying for Boeing defense division as a test bed. It actually lives at BFI.
First B767 was scrapped. Second B767 spent all it's life with United and now it's waiting scrapper at VCV.
 
Dalmd88
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Re: 1st 757 and 767

Sat Jan 28, 2017 3:11 pm

I predict very few of these two types will end up preserved once the fleet retires. They are just too large I think for most museums. I'm glad the DL museum chose to keep one of each. Too bad the L-1011 got away.
 
spahrtan
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Re: 1st 757 and 767

Sat Jan 28, 2017 3:37 pm

Small, but important correction. The first 727, 737 and 747 are at Museum Of Flight in Seattle, Wa.
 
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ikolkyo
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Re: 1st 757 and 767

Sat Jan 28, 2017 3:47 pm

I find it odd how the 767 really got the short end of the stick, no video of its first flight and the first aircraft is scrapped. What a shame.
 
kabq737
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Re: 1st 757 and 767

Sat Jan 28, 2017 4:36 pm

ikolkyo wrote:
I find it odd how the 767 really got the short end of the stick, no video of its first flight and the first aircraft is scrapped. What a shame.

It is kind of strange. It almost makes one wonder if they expected the 757 to be the big seller and saw the 767 as more of a supplemental side project.
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OldAeroGuy
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Re: 1st 757 and 767

Sat Jan 28, 2017 5:36 pm

The first 767 spent quite a bit of time flying with a large fairing mounted on the top of the fuselage.

It was doing research as an Airborne Optical Adjunct (AOA) aircraft for the Star Wars program.

https://images.search.yahoo.com/yhs/sea ... tion=click
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OldAeroGuy
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Re: 1st 757 and 767

Sat Jan 28, 2017 5:38 pm

kabq737 wrote:
ikolkyo wrote:
I find it odd how the 767 really got the short end of the stick, no video of its first flight and the first aircraft is scrapped. What a shame.

It is kind of strange. It almost makes one wonder if they expected the 757 to be the big seller and saw the 767 as more of a supplemental side project.


No, within Boeing the 767 was always looked upon as the more important airplane with the 757 as a sideshow.
Airplane design is easy, the difficulty is getting them to fly - Barnes Wallis
 
tomaheath
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Re: 1st 757 and 767

Sat Jan 28, 2017 5:38 pm

What is the 787 that's at the museum of flight?
 
kabq737
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Re: 1st 757 and 767

Sat Jan 28, 2017 5:40 pm

OldAeroGuy wrote:
kabq737 wrote:
ikolkyo wrote:
I find it odd how the 767 really got the short end of the stick, no video of its first flight and the first aircraft is scrapped. What a shame.

It is kind of strange. It almost makes one wonder if they expected the 757 to be the big seller and saw the 767 as more of a supplemental side project.


No, within Boeing the 767 was always looked upon as the more important airplane with the 757 as a sideshow.


Huh. That's interesting. Thanks for enlightening me. I've only been on the 757. Going to try out the 767 this summer. Do they use similar interiors or did Boeing make the 767 nicer since it was the star of the show?
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OldAeroGuy
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Re: 1st 757 and 767

Sat Jan 28, 2017 5:52 pm

The 757 is single aisle and was meant to be a follow on to the 727. The 753 was suppressed for over a decade as it would have competed with the 762.

The 767 is twin aisle and was meant to be an A300 competitor.
Airplane design is easy, the difficulty is getting them to fly - Barnes Wallis
 
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flyingclrs727
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Re: 1st 757 and 767

Sat Jan 28, 2017 7:59 pm

OldAeroGuy wrote:
The 757 is single aisle and was meant to be a follow on to the 727. The 753 was suppressed for over a decade as it would have competed with the 762.

The 767 is twin aisle and was meant to be an A300 competitor.


Boeing would have been better off designing the 757 as a direct replacement for the 727-200. There wouldn't then have been the need to keep stretching the 737 to fill all the narrow body niches up to the size of the 737-9. Boeing could have sold thousands of them as the eventual competitor to the A320 series.
 
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JannEejit
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Re: 1st 757 and 767

Sat Jan 28, 2017 8:05 pm

Given all the 757 and A321 comparisons. I actually thought Boeing might have produced a 757 family in a broadly similar spec to the A320 family. Back in '82 I assumed this new craft was going to be a 737 killer. It never quite panned out that way.
 
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flyingclrs727
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Re: 1st 757 and 767

Sat Jan 28, 2017 8:21 pm

The 757-200 was too big to be a 737 killer. It started out as a 727-300 sized aircraft but with long and heavy landing gear designed for the eventual 757-300 stretched version.
 
blacksoviet
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Re: 1st 757 and 767

Sat Jan 28, 2017 8:31 pm

Why didn't Boeing film the first 767 flight?
 
ckfred
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Re: 1st 757 and 767

Sat Jan 28, 2017 8:39 pm

An FYI. The 767 was viewed at the replacement for the 707, while the 757 was supposed to be the 727 replacement. At first the 757 sold poorly, because Eastern talked Boeing into stretching the fuselage. Because it was bigger than the 727-200, Boeing eventually came out with the 737-300 and 737-400 as alternatives for airlines wanting to replace their 727s with planes of similar size.
 
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JannEejit
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Re: 1st 757 and 767

Sat Jan 28, 2017 8:42 pm

flyingclrs727 wrote:
The 757-200 was too big to be a 737 killer. It started out as a 727-300 sized aircraft but with long and heavy landing gear designed for the eventual 757-300 stretched version.


My point being that it never evolved into or reverse engineered into a shorter, smaller version(s). Basically replacing the 737 with a family that could accommodate wider modern turbofans and on longer legs. Oh hang on, thirty years later the 737-MAX was conceived ! ;-)
 
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flyingclrs727
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Re: 1st 757 and 767

Sat Jan 28, 2017 10:20 pm

But the 737 NG and the Max which is based on the NG are heavier planes than the classic 737's. The NG rewinging and landing gear upgrades made the 600 too heavy to be a 200 or 500 replacement. The 737 went from a 100 seat puddle jumper to a 200+ seat mid to transcontinental plane. Boeing won't have any planes smaller than 150 seats once the NG's have finished production. The lack of smaller aircraft has created an opportunity for the C-Series. A smaller 757 base model would have eliminated the need to grow the 737 to fill the 727 niche.
 
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hOMSaR
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Re: 1st 757 and 767

Sun Jan 29, 2017 2:02 am

flyingclrs727 wrote:
A smaller 757 base model would have eliminated the need to grow the 737 to fill the 727 niche.


There was nothing wrong with the 737 growing into the 727's "niche."
I was raised by a cup of coffee.
 
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flyingclrs727
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Re: 1st 757 and 767

Sun Jan 29, 2017 2:21 am

hOMSaR wrote:
flyingclrs727 wrote:
A smaller 757 base model would have eliminated the need to grow the 737 to fill the 727 niche.


There was nothing wrong with the 737 growing into the 727's "niche."


But there were problems when the 737 grew to take over part of the 757 niche. A smaller 757 could have grown into the the 757-200's niche better. Nobody bought 757's to be a 727 replacement. The 737-400 didn't have the range or field performance to replace the 727. Many airlines like United bought A320's, because they were both similar in size, had better fuel economy, and had near transcontinental range.
 
zkncj
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Re: 1st 757 and 767

Sun Jan 29, 2017 2:27 am

tomaheath wrote:
What is the 787 that's at the museum of flight?


Its ZA003 which was the 3rd 788 to built.

The first 789 (LN 126), is now ZK-NZC with NZ.
 
Sooner787
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Re: 1st 757 and 767

Sun Jan 29, 2017 2:27 am

tomaheath wrote:
What is the 787 that's at the museum of flight?


That would be line # 3. They have a nice display set up inside the cabin.
 
LH707330
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Re: 1st 757 and 767

Sun Jan 29, 2017 2:43 am

OldAeroGuy wrote:
The 757 is single aisle and was meant to be a follow on to the 727. The 753 was suppressed for over a decade as it would have competed with the 762.

The 767 is twin aisle and was meant to be an A300 competitor.

Interesting point. hy didn't they realize by ~1990 that the 762 was largely done selling and it was time for a 753? I think they would have sold a greater combined number had they not waited.

Regarding the 757 being too big, I wonder if a smaller plane would have been in the right point in the replacement cycle. The A320, which was the best drop-in 727 replacement, didn't EIS until 1988.
 
DaufuskieGuy
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Re: 1st 757 and 767

Sun Jan 29, 2017 2:46 am

OldAeroGuy wrote:
The 757 is single aisle and was meant to be a follow on to the 727. The 753 was suppressed for over a decade as it would have competed with the 762.

The 767 is twin aisle and was meant to be an A300 competitor.


why didn't they build the 767 wide enough for 2 4 2 in Y then, to be a true competitor? I presume they wanted greater performance for long haul and the narrower design was lighter?
 
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flyingclrs727
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Re: 1st 757 and 767

Sun Jan 29, 2017 3:05 am

DaufuskieGuy wrote:
OldAeroGuy wrote:
The 757 is single aisle and was meant to be a follow on to the 727. The 753 was suppressed for over a decade as it would have competed with the 762.

The 767 is twin aisle and was meant to be an A300 competitor.


why didn't they build the 767 wide enough for 2 4 2 in Y then, to be a true competitor? I presume they wanted greater performance for long haul and the narrower design was lighter?


Probably due to the engines available when it was designed. The 767 was lighter and had better range.
 
Newbiepilot
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Re: 1st 757 and 767

Sun Jan 29, 2017 3:21 am

flyingclrs727 wrote:
The 757-200 was too big to be a 737 killer. It started out as a 727-300 sized aircraft but with long and heavy landing gear designed for the eventual 757-300 stretched version.



A 160 seat 2 class 757-100 was offered. The 757 originally was a slow seller and first customers like EA, BA and NW were more interested in the bigger option. This opened the door for the 737-300'and 737 family success.
 
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flyingclrs727
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Re: 1st 757 and 767

Sun Jan 29, 2017 3:44 am

But the 757-100 that was offered would have been a shrink of the 757-200 which itself carried a bunch of extra weight to accomodate an eventual stretch out the the 300 model.
 
blacksoviet
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Re: 1st 757 and 767

Sun Jan 29, 2017 4:31 am

I would like to see a photoshop model of what a 751 would look like.
 
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7BOEING7
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Re: 1st 757 and 767

Sun Jan 29, 2017 5:31 am

Boeing did expect the 757 to replace the both the 737 and 757. In the mid 80's Boeing studied moving 737 production to China which never came to fruition.
 
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JannEejit
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Re: 1st 757 and 767

Sun Jan 29, 2017 11:08 am

blacksoviet wrote:
I would like to see a photoshop model of what a 751 would look like.


There's a neat bit of "imagineering" going on in this flight sim video. The 751 looks a lot like it could have been Boeing's A320 to me...

http://www.jrlucariny.com.br/b757_100/b757_100.html
 
benbeny
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Re: 1st 757 and 767

Sun Jan 29, 2017 12:16 pm

I'm curious, why didn't Boeing offer 753 from the beginning to airlines and skip 762 entirely and going straight through 763 and 764?
 
VC10er
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Re: 1st 757 and 767

Sun Jan 29, 2017 12:23 pm

The "sim" video of the 757-100 really looks like a nice sized 757...and easy to imagine it being a great competitor to the A20 family. Also nice to see the UNITED "shades-of-Blue" (tulip) livery.

I vividly recall reading an article in the New York Times at my parents house (very early 80's I think) covering the 2 new airplanes from Boeing, with drawings of the 757 and 767. The thrust (pun intended) of the article was the twin engine design (that technology reached the point where 3/4 engines were not needed for safety or range reasons and represented the future) - although I don't think that ETOPS across the water was approved yet (although I could be wrong)...however I recall thinking myself "gee, are 2 engines safe enough- what if one fails?" I also recall not liking them in the drawings, at that time it was all about a 747 or the DC-10/L1011. I wish I could find that article, I'm going to try and find it. It was a "big deal" kind of article but I was only about 19 or 20 back then.
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FabDiva
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Re: 1st 757 and 767

Sun Jan 29, 2017 12:39 pm

DaufuskieGuy wrote:
OldAeroGuy wrote:
The 757 is single aisle and was meant to be a follow on to the 727. The 753 was suppressed for over a decade as it would have competed with the 762.

The 767 is twin aisle and was meant to be an A300 competitor.


why didn't they build the 767 wide enough for 2 4 2 in Y then, to be a true competitor? I presume they wanted greater performance for long haul and the narrower design was lighter?


Engine Tech, the A300 had the more optimal diameter (2-4-2 plus containers) but the 1970s engines limited the range. The 767 instead compromised on capacity (2-3-2 plus smaller containers) with similar engines to gain much greater range. It wasn't until the 1990s when engine tech improved allow 2-4-2 (A332) and 3-3-3 (772) fuselages with long range.
 
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Revelation
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Re: 1st 757 and 767

Sun Jan 29, 2017 12:54 pm

flyingclrs727 wrote:
OldAeroGuy wrote:
The 757 is single aisle and was meant to be a follow on to the 727. The 753 was suppressed for over a decade as it would have competed with the 762.

The 767 is twin aisle and was meant to be an A300 competitor.


Boeing would have been better off designing the 757 as a direct replacement for the 727-200. There wouldn't then have been the need to keep stretching the 737 to fill all the narrow body niches up to the size of the 737-9. Boeing could have sold thousands of them as the eventual competitor to the A320 series.


They did start with 757 as a direct 727 replacement but the launch customers EA and BA wanted more capacity, and without the launch orders there would be no 757, so...

benbeny wrote:
I'm curious, why didn't Boeing offer 753 from the beginning to airlines and skip 762 entirely and going straight through 763 and 764?


They made more money selling 767 than 757.

The 763 didn't come in to its own and the 764 really didn't make sense till the later engine upgrades:

Engine options: Pratt and Whitney JT9D-7R4D/-7R4E/-7R4E4, PW4056, PW4060, PW4060C, PW4062 or General Electric CF6-80A2/-80C2 or Rolls-Royce RB211-524H-36/-524H-T-36.


Note the 767-400ERX was planned to use the 747-500 engines i.e. the ones that ended up on the A380.
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OldAeroGuy
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Re: 1st 757 and 767

Sun Jan 29, 2017 8:24 pm

benbeny wrote:
I'm curious, why didn't Boeing offer 753 from the beginning to airlines and skip 762 entirely and going straight through 763 and 764?


True story about the 757 sizing.

During the design phase, a wing area study was being done. With the -200 body length, a chart was produced showing fuel burn as a function of wing area. For wing areas from 1600 sq ft to 1900 sq ft, the fuel burn was pretty flat but increased markedly below 1600 sq ft and above 1900 sq ft. The recommendation of the 757 engineering staff was 1600 sq ft as this would have made a -100 body length more viable and reduced OEW.

Joe Sutter over-ruled the 757 staff as he was interested in the 752 operating out of Chicago-Midway. Accordingly, he selected 1900 sq ft as the wing area, which later became 1951 sq ft when all the wing design details were complete.

If the 757 wing had been left at 1600 sq ft, the 757 would have been much more competitive with the A321 and might have had a longer production life. While the larger wing made the 753 easier to do, this advantage was wasted as the decision to do the 753 was delayed for so long.
Airplane design is easy, the difficulty is getting them to fly - Barnes Wallis
 
777PHX
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Re: 1st 757 and 767

Sun Jan 29, 2017 8:57 pm

zkncj wrote:
tomaheath wrote:
What is the 787 that's at the museum of flight?


Its ZA003 which was the 3rd 788 to built.

The first 789 (LN 126), is now ZK-NZC with NZ.


Pima Air and Space museum in Tuscon has ZA002, the second 788 built, as well.
 
tomaheath
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Re: 1st 757 and 767

Sun Jan 29, 2017 9:14 pm

Thanks for the info everyone. How about the first 777?
 
blacksoviet
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Re: 1st 757 and 767

Sun Jan 29, 2017 9:32 pm

That 751 in the video looks like it would have been a tough competitor for the A321LR.
 
LH707330
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Re: 1st 757 and 767

Sun Jan 29, 2017 9:45 pm

OldAeroGuy wrote:
benbeny wrote:
I'm curious, why didn't Boeing offer 753 from the beginning to airlines and skip 762 entirely and going straight through 763 and 764?


True story about the 757 sizing.

During the design phase, a wing area study was being done. With the -200 body length, a chart was produced showing fuel burn as a function of wing area. For wing areas from 1600 sq ft to 1900 sq ft, the fuel burn was pretty flat but increased markedly below 1600 sq ft and above 1900 sq ft. The recommendation of the 757 engineering staff was 1600 sq ft as this would have made a -100 body length more viable and reduced OEW.

Joe Sutter over-ruled the 757 staff as he was interested in the 752 operating out of Chicago-Midway. Accordingly, he selected 1900 sq ft as the wing area, which later became 1951 sq ft when all the wing design details were complete.

If the 757 wing had been left at 1600 sq ft, the 757 would have been much more competitive with the A321 and might have had a longer production life. While the larger wing made the 753 easier to do, this advantage was wasted as the decision to do the 753 was delayed for so long.

I just re-read his book "747" (while on a 744, appropriately), and he mentions doing a similar thing for the 767. At the time, UA wanted transcon range and pushed for small wings, but the team anticipated the engine thrust going up, and was able to make the wing much bigger than the A310 wing. On the 767, that proved to be a good decision in the end.
 
fry530
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Re: 1st 757 and 767

Mon Jan 30, 2017 1:29 am

tomaheath wrote:
Thanks for the info everyone. How about the first 777?


I believe the first 777 became N777UA which is still flying with United today.

Correct me if I am wrong. It could be that that is just the first frame that went into service with an airline, but I thought it was also the original frame.

In any case, I can see (and hope) United donating it to Boeing when they decide to retire it.
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zanl188
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Re: 1st 757 and 767

Mon Jan 30, 2017 1:44 am

fry530 wrote:

I believe the first 777 became N777UA which is still flying with United today.


First 777 is flying with Cathay.

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rmp1kxk
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Re: 1st 757 and 767

Mon Jan 30, 2017 1:45 am

fry530 wrote:
tomaheath wrote:
Thanks for the info everyone. How about the first 777?


I believe the first 777 became N777UA which is still flying with United today.

Correct me if I am wrong. It could be that that is just the first frame that went into service with an airline, but I thought it was also the original frame.

In any case, I can see (and hope) United donating it to Boeing when they decide to retire it.


N777UA is actually the 7th 772 built, but it was the first one to be delivered to United or any customer, hence the special tail. United eventually received line numbers 2-6 after Boeing finished testing with them, but line number 1 was bought by Cathay Pacific and is flying today as B-HNL
 
tomaheath
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Re: 1st 757 and 767

Mon Jan 30, 2017 2:04 am

rmp1kxk wrote:
fry530 wrote:
tomaheath wrote:
Thanks for the info everyone. How about the first 777?


I believe the first 777 became N777UA which is still flying with United today.

Correct me if I am wrong. It could be that that is just the first frame that went into service with an airline, but I thought it was also the original frame.

In any case, I can see (and hope) United donating it to Boeing when they decide to retire it.


N777UA is actually the 7th 772 built, but it was the first one to be delivered to United or any customer, hence the special tail. United eventually received line numbers 2-6 after Boeing finished testing with them, but line number 1 was bought by Cathay Pacific and is flying today as B-HNL

So why did the first 747 and 787 never go to a customer? Seems like most of the other models did.
 
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flyingclrs727
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Re: 1st 757 and 767

Mon Jan 30, 2017 2:18 am

tomaheath wrote:
rmp1kxk wrote:
fry530 wrote:

I believe the first 777 became N777UA which is still flying with United today.

Correct me if I am wrong. It could be that that is just the first frame that went into service with an airline, but I thought it was also the original frame.

In any case, I can see (and hope) United donating it to Boeing when they decide to retire it.


N777UA is actually the 7th 772 built, but it was the first one to be delivered to United or any customer, hence the special tail. United eventually received line numbers 2-6 after Boeing finished testing with them, but line number 1 was bought by Cathay Pacific and is flying today as B-HNL


So why did the first 747 and 787 never go to a customer? Seems like most of the other models did.


Normally the first airplane off the line is heavier and has idiosyncrasies from any other aircraft of its type. They can be hard to integrate into a fleet. The 777 was unusual, because it was planned all along to sell The first plane off The line to an airline. That was also planned for the 787, but the fiascoes Boeing had developing the 787 made the first ones off the line useable for redelivery to airlines.
 
fry530
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Re: 1st 757 and 767

Mon Jan 30, 2017 4:06 pm

rmp1kxk wrote:
fry530 wrote:
tomaheath wrote:
Thanks for the info everyone. How about the first 777?


I believe the first 777 became N777UA which is still flying with United today.

Correct me if I am wrong. It could be that that is just the first frame that went into service with an airline, but I thought it was also the original frame.

In any case, I can see (and hope) United donating it to Boeing when they decide to retire it.


N777UA is actually the 7th 772 built, but it was the first one to be delivered to United or any customer, hence the special tail. United eventually received line numbers 2-6 after Boeing finished testing with them, but line number 1 was bought by Cathay Pacific and is flying today as B-HNL


Huh, I had no idea. Thank you for sharing that bit of info!
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