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Air Canada adds YYZ/YUL-KEF

Wed Feb 01, 2017 2:49 pm

 
Dominion301
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Re: Air Canada adds YYZ/YUL-KEF

Wed Feb 01, 2017 3:50 pm

Holy cow. In the span of 1 year, YUL will have gone from ZERO air service to KEF to 3 air carriers...that's just insane! I wonder whether AC will need to outfit a couple of Rouge 319s with ETOPS like the two mainline birds that do YYT-LHR?
 
Whiteguy
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Re: Air Canada adds YYZ/YUL-KEF

Wed Feb 01, 2017 3:56 pm

Dominion301 wrote:
Holy cow. In the span of 1 year, YUL will have gone from ZERO air service to KEF to 3 air carriers...that's just insane! I wonder whether AC will need to outfit a couple of Rouge 319s with ETOPS like the two mainline birds that do YYT-LHR?


Don't think you need ETOPS to KEF....
 
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hvusslax
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Re: Air Canada adds YYZ/YUL-KEF

Wed Feb 01, 2017 4:33 pm

Dominion301 wrote:
Holy cow. In the span of 1 year, YUL will have gone from ZERO air service to KEF to 3 air carriers...that's just insane! I wonder whether AC will need to outfit a couple of Rouge 319s with ETOPS like the two mainline birds that do YYT-LHR?


It's sort of strange how it took so long for YUL to get any service to KEF, considering that Montreal is the closest major metro area in North America to Iceland.
 
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ACCS300
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Re: Air Canada adds YYZ/YUL-KEF

Wed Feb 01, 2017 5:03 pm

GREAT NEWS!!! *A and aeroplan point accumulation to KEF, looking forward to booking this, wish it was mainline AC though.
 
ahj2000
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Wed Feb 01, 2017 5:12 pm

698$C is WAY more than what WOW is charging...
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usflyer123
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Re: Air Canada adds YYZ/YUL-KEF

Wed Feb 01, 2017 5:13 pm

Thats great news! Do both routes will be daily? Because YUL-KEF daily seems like alot of service with WOW and FI. Now I hope UA will launch a summer seasonal EWR-KEF.
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chrisa330
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Re: Air Canada adds YYZ/YUL-KEF

Wed Feb 01, 2017 5:19 pm

ahj2000 wrote:
698$C is WAY more than what WOW is charging...


No it isn't. I picked dates in July and WOW comes to $850 when you include a checked bag and seat selection, both of which are included in the AC fare. The base WOW fare was $10 less than AC.

The cheapest WOW fare I found was $500 base fare and $652 with add ins. Not really what I would call 'WAY cheaper'
 
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longhauler
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Re: Air Canada adds YYZ/YUL-KEF

Wed Feb 01, 2017 8:57 pm

Dominion301 wrote:
I wonder whether AC will need to outfit a couple of Rouge 319s with ETOPS like the two mainline birds that do YYT-LHR?


The A319s on which Rouge is presently flying through New York Oceanic to the Caribbean should be sufficient for flights to Iceland. They are already equipped with HF, survival gear and slide/rafts. They can go up to 75 minutes from a suitable landing site.

While ETOPS is not an issue to Iceland, the aircraft may need 8.33 kHz frequency spacing and CPDLC as required for European air regs / operations.
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YYZSpotter1991
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Re: Air Canada adds YYZ/YUL-KEF

Wed Feb 01, 2017 9:55 pm

usflyer123 wrote:
Thats great news! Do both routes will be daily? Because YUL-KEF daily seems like alot of service with WOW and FI. Now I hope UA will launch a summer seasonal EWR-KEF.


Neither flight is daily; according to the press release (as well as a post on Air Canada's Facebook page but this post is slightly incorrect), YYZ-KEF will be 4x weekly starting June 21 and YUL-KEF is commencing two days later with a 3x weekly schedule.
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clrd4t8koff
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Re: Air Canada adds YYZ/YUL-KEF

Wed Feb 01, 2017 9:59 pm

I wonder how successful this will be for AC? I'd imagine most people flying FI or WOW currently aren't flying them to go to Iceland, they're flying onwards to EU.
 
YYZSpotter1991
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Re: Air Canada adds YYZ/YUL-KEF

Wed Feb 01, 2017 10:11 pm

clrd4t8koff wrote:
I wonder how successful this will be for AC? I'd imagine most people flying FI or WOW currently aren't flying them to go to Iceland, they're flying onwards to EU.


In any case it's a seasonal service. AC at this point wouldn't be intending to make this a year-round route unless the demand is there. It's a bit difficult to justify the high starting price point compared to WOW and Icelandair, since they fly the route year-round already.
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clrd4t8koff
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Re: Air Canada adds YYZ/YUL-KEF

Wed Feb 01, 2017 10:23 pm

YYZSpotter1991 wrote:
clrd4t8koff wrote:
I wonder how successful this will be for AC? I'd imagine most people flying FI or WOW currently aren't flying them to go to Iceland, they're flying onwards to EU.


In any case it's a seasonal service. AC at this point wouldn't be intending to make this a year-round route unless the demand is there. It's a bit difficult to justify the high starting price point compared to WOW and Icelandair, since they fly the route year-round already.


That's fine that it's seasonal and nobody is questioning that. But even in summer I can't believe there's enough O&D between YYZ/YUL-KEF to justify 3 carriers on the route, even if AC isn't daily. I think AC is going into this knowing they will lose money, with the hope it will kill off either WOW or FI, which will help their YYZ/YUL-EU flights then.
 
jimbo737
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Re: Air Canada adds YYZ/YUL-KEF

Thu Feb 02, 2017 12:29 am

That's fine that it's seasonal and nobody is questioning that. But even in summer I can't believe there's enough O&D between YYZ/YUL-KEF to justify 3 carriers on the route, even if AC isn't daily. I think AC is going into this knowing they will lose money, with the hope it will kill off either WOW or FI, which will help their YYZ/YUL-EU flights then.

This post gets the Gold Star.

This is all about market-share and trying to kill WOW / Icelandair who's through flights to Europe are destroying AC's yields, especially their critical close in / high high yields that underwrite the entire TATL operation.

This week last year, a flight from YYZ to FRA leaving tomorrow and back in 5 days, (ie a typical business trip), typically cost about C$2,005 in Y. This year, the fares are typically about $1,259.

Its pretty hard to revenue manage around that sort of yield wipe out.
 
cedarjet
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Re: Air Canada adds YYZ/YUL-KEF

Thu Feb 02, 2017 1:06 am

To be clear, Wow and Icelandair aren't really serving Iceland to Toronto, they're serving Europe to Toronto. They're competing with AC on YYZ/YUL to LHR, CPH, MAN et al.
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Thenoflyzone
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Re: Air Canada adds YYZ/YUL-KEF

Thu Feb 02, 2017 3:52 am

Dominion301 wrote:
I wonder whether AC will need to outfit a couple of Rouge 319s with ETOPS like the two mainline birds that do YYT-LHR?


As others have said, no.

YYZ/YUL-KEF is easily doable while remaining within 60 minute diversion time from a suitable alternate airport. (mainly YFB, SFJ and KEF). The slight detour is only 35 nm longer than the direct route from YYZ.

Image

http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=yyz-kef%2C+yyz-n62w055-n65w035-kef&R=397nm%40yfb%2C+397nm%40sfj%2C+397nm%40kef&MS=wls&DU=nm&E=60&EV=397&EU=kts

Looking at Wow Air's routes from North America to KEF with their A321s, they don't seem to have ETOPS certification either. They follow the routing shown above and seem to do fine.

longhauler wrote:

The A319s on which Rouge is presently flying through New York Oceanic to the Caribbean should be sufficient for flights to Iceland. They are already equipped with HF, survival gear and slide/rafts. They can go up to 75 minutes from a suitable landing site.

While ETOPS is not an issue to Iceland, the aircraft may need 8.33 kHz frequency spacing and CPDLC as required for European air regs / operations.


Correct me if i'm wrong, but the 75 min diversion time is only available in the Western Atlantic/Caribbean right? Which is a benign area of operation. Rouge won't be able to use that to KEF and will need to stick to 60 minute diversion time in the North Atlantic, if i'm reading the TP6327 correctly.
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longhauler
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Re: Air Canada adds YYZ/YUL-KEF

Thu Feb 02, 2017 4:09 am

Thenoflyzone wrote:
Correct me if i'm wrong, but the 75 min diversion time is only available in the Western Atlantic/Caribbean right? Which is a benign area of operation. Rouge won't be able to use that to KEF and will need to stick to 60 minute diversion time in the North Atlantic, if i'm reading the TP6327 correctly.

Yes, I believe you are correct.

I am old enough to remember when the benign area of operation extension was granted by Transport Canada for those easternmost airways south of BDA. Given the circumstances, I would not be surprised if needed for KEF, the same extension was granted. But as shown above, unless weather closes one of the enroute alternates, 60 minutes should be fine.

That being the case though, all it would take is SFJ to be below alternate limits and 60 minutes would not be enough. Perhaps ETOPS 120 is in the works for Rouge A319s.
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Thenoflyzone
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Re: Air Canada adds YYZ/YUL-KEF

Thu Feb 02, 2017 4:20 am

longhauler wrote:

That being the case though, all it would take is SFJ to be below alternate limits and 60 minutes would not be enough. Perhaps ETOPS 120 is in the works for Rouge A319s.


I was thinking the same thing myself. Wonder if UAK can be used as a backup for SFJ. Only a 6,000 runway though.
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whywhyzee
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Re: Air Canada adds YYZ/YUL-KEF

Thu Feb 02, 2017 6:08 am

jimbo737 wrote:
That's fine that it's seasonal and nobody is questioning that. But even in summer I can't believe there's enough O&D between YYZ/YUL-KEF to justify 3 carriers on the route, even if AC isn't daily. I think AC is going into this knowing they will lose money, with the hope it will kill off either WOW or FI, which will help their YYZ/YUL-EU flights then.

This post gets the Gold Star.

This is all about market-share and trying to kill WOW / Icelandair who's through flights to Europe are destroying AC's yields, especially their critical close in / high high yields that underwrite the entire TATL operation.

This week last year, a flight from YYZ to FRA leaving tomorrow and back in 5 days, (ie a typical business trip), typically cost about C$2,005 in Y. This year, the fares are typically about $1,259.

Its pretty hard to revenue manage around that sort of yield wipe out.


I fail to see how this is going to cause any sort of dent to WOW and Icelandair. ~500 seats a week compared to what wow (daily) and icelandair (11x weekly) is offering doesn't make a ton of sense. Iceland tourism has been pushing a huge marketing campaign in Toronto, Iceland is in vogue, everyone seems to want to go there right now. I get the feeling this is geared towards those people. It can't compete with the Icelandic carriers for tatl with no feed ex KEF.

AC has come out and said it themselves that they aren't pushing for yields, rather they are more concerned with market share and net revenue. Hence their mass expansion, sure yields may be down as they flood the market with capacity, but 10 times 3 is still more then 5 times 2. YYZ is about to announce a yearly increase of roughly 8-9 percent YoY 2015 vs 2016. A lot of that is due to AC. Yields will catch up, it's just a matter of establishing the routes first and letting the market continue to grow. Network wide LF's are strong, mid 80's, and they are forecast to increase over the next few years. It's not a bad strategy. AC has been focussed on long term success, this is just another example of them capitalizing on a strong local market. It's growing steadily, they are going to be in the game.
 
sixtyseven
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Re: Air Canada adds YYZ/YUL-KEF

Thu Feb 02, 2017 6:25 am

75 minutes is WATRS only.

WATRS is benign due to ample enroute alternates and generally fine weather which gets the extra 15 minutes.

It's 60mins or 120 if they get the required equipment.

Sonde goes flat and 60mins won't hack it.

Will they get 120? Wouldn't be cheap and it'd really be for this one route which could be a throw away if it doesn't work.

That said people on here seem to enjoy ripping AC and their recent forays. DXB, DEL were laughed at and have been wildly successful. They're not stupid.
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Topguncanada
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Re: Air Canada adds YYZ/YUL-KEF

Thu Feb 02, 2017 8:08 am

Just like Iceland Air and WOW utilize their KEF hub, so does AC use their YYZ hub. The O/D between Canada and Iceland may indeed be small...however AC is likely counting on significant USA feed from their network to make this route viable. If this route takes a dent out of the aforementioned competitors yields...it will be an added bonus as far as AC is concerned.
 
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longhauler
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Re: Air Canada adds YYZ/YUL-KEF

Thu Feb 02, 2017 1:40 pm

jimbo737 wrote:
This week last year, a flight from YYZ to FRA leaving tomorrow and back in 5 days, (ie a typical business trip), typically cost about C$2,005 in Y. This year, the fares are typically about $1,259.

Its pretty hard to revenue manage around that sort of yield wipe out.

You never quit, do you? You keep saying the same thing every year, and every year Air Canada reports record profits.

You just keep hoping that lower yields means a failure of yield management, when clearly, it means Air Canada is following the trend world wide. Or did you not notice that Westjet's yield dropped 5.3% on a cost drop of only 2.6%? It would almost make one think that maybe just pulling one metric out of a stack of dozens may be irrelevant. ;)

Also ... looking at historical fare data, I see that YYZ-FRA fares at AC (and LH) are up about 4% over last year. If you are able to garner a $1259 fare this year, when you pretend to pay $2005 last year, I say you should be a travel agent! Not to mention, the Triple that is flying to FRA is carrying 40K tonnes of freight every day. Maybe ... just maybe ... revenue management is more involved that pulling the cheapest fare out of travelocity.
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longhauler
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Re: Air Canada adds YYZ/YUL-KEF

Thu Feb 02, 2017 1:51 pm

Topguncanada wrote:
Just like Iceland Air and WOW utilize their KEF hub, so does AC use their YYZ hub. The O/D between Canada and Iceland may indeed be small...however AC is likely counting on significant USA feed from their network to make this route viable. If this route takes a dent out of the aforementioned competitors yields...it will be an added bonus as far as AC is concerned.

This must be accurate, as AC rarely makes a marketing mistake with regard to new routes. I have to chuckle when all of the armchair CEOs here (myself included) wonder about new routes that 6 months later are hugely successful. As I said above, I found Iceland to be fascinating, and it was only the non-stop of Icelandair that made me jump at the chance to visit. This too may stimulate traffic.

Also, while not privy to "inside information" I have to figure that Rouge's traffic is very seasonal .... with more demand for 767s during the summer (flying mostly Europe) and more demand for A319/321s during the winter (flying mostly southern destinations). If that is the case, this may also be a case of sending an aircraft that is idle anyway, and just trying out a new route.
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kelvin933
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Re: Air Canada adds YYZ/YUL-KEF

Thu Feb 02, 2017 2:00 pm

longhauler wrote:
Topguncanada wrote:
Just like Iceland Air and WOW utilize their KEF hub, so does AC use their YYZ hub. The O/D between Canada and Iceland may indeed be small...however AC is likely counting on significant USA feed from their network to make this route viable. If this route takes a dent out of the aforementioned competitors yields...it will be an added bonus as far as AC is concerned.

This must be accurate, as AC rarely makes a marketing mistake with regard to new routes. I have to chuckle when all of the armchair CEOs here (myself included) wonder about new routes that 6 months later are hugely successful. As I said above, I found Iceland to be fascinating, and it was only the non-stop of Icelandair that made me jump at the chance to visit. This too may stimulate traffic.

Also, while not privy to "inside information" I have to figure that Rouge's traffic is very seasonal .... with more demand for 767s during the summer (flying mostly Europe) and more demand for A319/321s during the winter (flying mostly southern destinations). If that is the case, this may also be a case of sending an aircraft that is idle anyway, and just trying out a new route.

Since the A319 leaves after 21:00 and returns to Canada about 10:00 the next morning most of the time spent on the Canada-KEF routes would be spent sitting on the apron in YYZ and YUL during the night curfew.
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jimbo737
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Re: Air Canada adds YYZ/YUL-KEF

Thu Feb 02, 2017 3:19 pm

Record profits with record cheap fuel.

It's not just AC who have consistently reported TATL yields down, and make no mistake, they are down. Way down.

Fares to LHR, easily the largest TATL market, remain tanked this winter with all-important LM fares at all levels dramatically lower than this time last year. J class fares are as much as $3,000 less on a r!t basis, comparing the same equivalent departure dates and times on the same day, same week, for the same duration. When it looks like a duck, sounds like a duck and walks like a duck, it's probably a duck.

Both German destinations are way, way down year over year from ALL Canadian gateways.

This all works, to a degree, when oil is cheap, compared to 4 years or so ago.

Cheap fuel is being used to drive market share battles across the network and fight countless tactical battles that result in much more widespread yield reductions for all involved.

No one should be surprised at the decline in yields. There is nothing easier than to cut fares to fill excess capacity when fuel is cheap, due to the long understood effects of price stimulation.

It's considerably harder to raise fares and maintain traffic as costs inevitably inflate. This is where the difficulties will occur down the road.

The apologists response is always, " fares are cheap but think of the belly cargo revenue!". That's been the response for years too, though interestingly, the other TATL carriers don't seem to make much use of that argument, given the giveaway prices belly space is being offered for these days.

The US based network carriers are reigning in expansion to keep growth similar to GDP growth levels. All of them have cut back TATL flying. That's why their results consistently and significantly trump Cdn carriers these days. They've chosen to pocket the profits whereas as others decided to use cheap fuel to underwrite what will be looked back upon, when oil is $80, as a rather reckless period of expansion.

WJ could cut growth, but why would they with their continued significantly lower unit cost basis, which is obvious to anyone, except those who, after 20+ years, still don't seem to understand the concept that ASL has a huge impact on unit costs.

WJ's ASL has stayed around the 925 mile level, AC's has ballooned from 850 miles to about 1,500 miles. Is there any wonder their unit costs have shrunk over the period? They better have with that sort of stage length expansion!
Last edited by jimbo737 on Thu Feb 02, 2017 3:35 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
Natflyer
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Re: Air Canada adds YYZ/YUL-KEF

Thu Feb 02, 2017 3:26 pm

kelvin933 wrote:
Since the A319 leaves after 21:00 and returns to Canada about 10:00 the next morning most of the time spent on the Canada-KEF routes would be spent sitting on the apron in YYZ and YUL during the night curfew.


Well neither of these airport has a night "curfew" per se, although getting out of or into YUL during the night is more restricted.
 
Dominion301
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Re: Air Canada adds YYZ/YUL-KEF

Thu Feb 02, 2017 3:29 pm

Topguncanada wrote:
Just like Iceland Air and WOW utilize their KEF hub, so does AC use their YYZ hub. The O/D between Canada and Iceland may indeed be small...however AC is likely counting on significant USA feed from their network to make this route viable. If this route takes a dent out of the aforementioned competitors yields...it will be an added bonus as far as AC is concerned.


I don't doubt YYZ can fill a 319 4x/week, but YUL with the much smaller hub and two other carriers already. Yet YOW to the east has zero competition (and zero Europe leisure seat capacity) and can provide some feed to fill a KEF-bound 319. In other words, the YUL route smells of trying to kick off WOW and/or (less likely) FI.
 
klakzky123
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Re: Air Canada adds YYZ/YUL-KEF

Thu Feb 02, 2017 3:50 pm

This just seems like a response to the Icelandic carriers. WOW and Icelandair threaten to take a reasonable amount of leisure traffic to Europe. This seems like an attempt to capture the portion of traffic visiting Iceland (and not transiting) in order to weaken yields. Delta is doing the same thing in Minneapolis with its seasonal flight to KEF. They're approaching year 2 of that experiment and I honestly have no idea if its working or not but I think this just about trying to weaken the Icelandic carriers in order to protect the TATL business. This has nothing to do with some amazing potential to make money off of Icelandic travel. This is about breaking a potential threat to a very profitable part of AC's business.
 
drgmobile
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Re: Air Canada adds YYZ/YUL-KEF

Thu Feb 02, 2017 7:15 pm

clrd4t8koff wrote:
I wonder how successful this will be for AC? I'd imagine most people flying FI or WOW currently aren't flying them to go to Iceland, they're flying onwards to EU.


You're missing the point. Iceland is a country of 320,000 and is already served from Canada by two carriers, which have an ability that Air Canada cannot match to connect travellers to Europe beyond Iceland. Of course Air Canada isn't going to be commercially successful with these flights. It's about driving out Icelandair and WOW while collecting some data along the way about the characteristics of the market.
 
whywhyzee
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Re: Air Canada adds YYZ/YUL-KEF

Thu Feb 02, 2017 7:16 pm

jimbo737 wrote:
Record profits with record cheap fuel.

It's not just AC who have consistently reported TATL yields down, and make no mistake, they are down. Way down.

Fares to LHR, easily the largest TATL market, remain tanked this winter with all-important LM fares at all levels dramatically lower than this time last year. J class fares are as much as $3,000 less on a r!t basis, comparing the same equivalent departure dates and times on the same day, same week, for the same duration. When it looks like a duck, sounds like a duck and walks like a duck, it's probably a duck.

Both German destinations are way, way down year over year from ALL Canadian gateways.

This all works, to a degree, when oil is cheap, compared to 4 years or so ago.

Cheap fuel is being used to drive market share battles across the network and fight countless tactical battles that result in much more widespread yield reductions for all involved.

No one should be surprised at the decline in yields. There is nothing easier than to cut fares to fill excess capacity when fuel is cheap, due to the long understood effects of price stimulation.

It's considerably harder to raise fares and maintain traffic as costs inevitably inflate. This is where the difficulties will occur down the road.

The apologists response is always, " fares are cheap but think of the belly cargo revenue!". That's been the response for years too, though interestingly, the other TATL carriers don't seem to make much use of that argument, given the giveaway prices belly space is being offered for these days.

The US based network carriers are reigning in expansion to keep growth similar to GDP growth levels. All of them have cut back TATL flying. That's why their results consistently and significantly trump Cdn carriers these days. They've chosen to pocket the profits whereas as others decided to use cheap fuel to underwrite what will be looked back upon, when oil is $80, as a rather reckless period of expansion.

WJ could cut growth, but why would they with their continued significantly lower unit cost basis, which is obvious to anyone, except those who, after 20+ years, still don't seem to understand the concept that ASL has a huge impact on unit costs.

WJ's ASL has stayed around the 925 mile level, AC's has ballooned from 850 miles to about 1,500 miles. Is there any wonder their unit costs have shrunk over the period? They better have with that sort of stage length expansion!


Year over year, YYZ has seen wow add 5 weekly A321 trips...in an all Y configured aircraft. That won't have any real bearing on J fares. I hate to call somebody out, but your post stinks of someone looking for something to cause a disturbance. 5 weekly A321 trips isn't going to play a real worthwhile role on a route that sees upwards of 9 daily flights all on widebodies during certain periods of the year. Wow isn't the driver behind AC's yields, AC is.

What is more significant is AC's expansion, look at their 77W's, going from ~300 seats to 400. 789's replacing 767's also adds roughly 100 seats per flight. AC has gone the route of lowering their operating costs with new aircraft and efficient configurations. Sure fares might drop, but available seats have increased as well. 1000 seats per week on WOW doesn't even come close to the daily offering on AC alone to London. Let alone BA, TS, RV and WS.
 
stlgph
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Re: Air Canada adds YYZ/YUL-KEF

Thu Feb 02, 2017 7:34 pm

drgmobile wrote:
clrd4t8koff wrote:
I wonder how successful this will be for AC? I'd imagine most people flying FI or WOW currently aren't flying them to go to Iceland, they're flying onwards to EU.


You're missing the point. Iceland is a country of 320,000 and is already served from Canada by two carriers, which have an ability that Air Canada cannot match to connect travellers to Europe beyond Iceland. Of course Air Canada isn't going to be commercially successful with these flights. It's about driving out Icelandair and WOW while collecting some data along the way about the characteristics of the market.


I love the logic here. I guess between Air Canada and their Star Alliance partners offering more flights and choices every day they clearly are at a disadvantage to Icelandair and Wow Air to offering folks service to Europe. Gosh, I hope they make it.


It seems many of you are missing the point. Iceland is hot hot hot hot hot hot right now. The american carriers have been missing the boat on this although Delta is starting to pick up on the slack offering JFK year around and now offering MSP to the mix. Without a doubt a number of travelers at a with a number of home airports across the U.S. and Canada will type in Iceland on Expedia and an Air Canada option will come up, just helping to strengthen their goal of turning Toronto into a global hub.
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whywhyzee
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Re: Air Canada adds YYZ/YUL-KEF

Thu Feb 02, 2017 8:27 pm

stlgph wrote:
drgmobile wrote:
clrd4t8koff wrote:
I wonder how successful this will be for AC? I'd imagine most people flying FI or WOW currently aren't flying them to go to Iceland, they're flying onwards to EU.


You're missing the point. Iceland is a country of 320,000 and is already served from Canada by two carriers, which have an ability that Air Canada cannot match to connect travellers to Europe beyond Iceland. Of course Air Canada isn't going to be commercially successful with these flights. It's about driving out Icelandair and WOW while collecting some data along the way about the characteristics of the market.


I love the logic here. I guess between Air Canada and their Star Alliance partners offering more flights and choices every day they clearly are at a disadvantage to Icelandair and Wow Air to offering folks service to Europe. Gosh, I hope they make it.


It seems many of you are missing the point. Iceland is hot hot hot hot hot hot right now. The american carriers have been missing the boat on this although Delta is starting to pick up on the slack offering JFK year around and now offering MSP to the mix. Without a doubt a number of travelers at a with a number of home airports across the U.S. and Canada will type in Iceland on Expedia and an Air Canada option will come up, just helping to strengthen their goal of turning Toronto into a global hub.


Thank you! Finally someone sees the logic. Asides from longhauler, this thread has been filled with people that don't seem to understand what is going on here. It's an O/D route, and it's not for Icelandic people to come visit the great white north, they get enough of that at home. Torontonian's are wild about Iceland right now, it's all the buzz, this route is AC responding to the demand. They aren't trying to connect passengers, they have non-stops for that. With no feed in Iceland anyhow, I fail to see how people can jump to that conclusion.
 
stlgph
Posts: 11229
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 4:19 pm

Re: Air Canada adds YYZ/YUL-KEF

Thu Feb 02, 2017 9:46 pm

Absolutely. Local folks in Toronto and Montreal, if going to Iceland, and if they are loyalists to Air Canada miles, are probably going to stay loyal to getting those miles, despite their hate for Air Canada.

On the other hand if AC can book a few extra folks from places say like ... Indianapolis, Harrisburg, Regina, routing them through the Toronto hub, then so be it. The more the merrier and the more options the folks have out in the hinterlands to get to Iceland.

Interest in Iceland isnt only limited to where Wow Air or Icelandair can fly nonstop.
if assumptions could fly, airliners.net would be the world's busiest airport
 
clrd4t8koff
Posts: 1684
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2005 3:57 am

Re: Air Canada adds YYZ/YUL-KEF

Thu Feb 02, 2017 10:01 pm

drgmobile wrote:
clrd4t8koff wrote:
I wonder how successful this will be for AC? I'd imagine most people flying FI or WOW currently aren't flying them to go to Iceland, they're flying onwards to EU.


You're missing the point. Iceland is a country of 320,000 and is already served from Canada by two carriers, which have an ability that Air Canada cannot match to connect travellers to Europe beyond Iceland. Of course Air Canada isn't going to be commercially successful with these flights. It's about driving out Icelandair and WOW while collecting some data along the way about the characteristics of the market.


I'm not missing any point. I suggest you go back and read my post after the one you quoted here - post 13 - which I said exactly what you're saying. I know this is about trying to kill off either FI or WOW.
 
clrd4t8koff
Posts: 1684
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2005 3:57 am

Re: Air Canada adds YYZ/YUL-KEF

Thu Feb 02, 2017 10:09 pm

whywhyzee wrote:
stlgph wrote:
drgmobile wrote:

You're missing the point. Iceland is a country of 320,000 and is already served from Canada by two carriers, which have an ability that Air Canada cannot match to connect travellers to Europe beyond Iceland. Of course Air Canada isn't going to be commercially successful with these flights. It's about driving out Icelandair and WOW while collecting some data along the way about the characteristics of the market.


I love the logic here. I guess between Air Canada and their Star Alliance partners offering more flights and choices every day they clearly are at a disadvantage to Icelandair and Wow Air to offering folks service to Europe. Gosh, I hope they make it.


It seems many of you are missing the point. Iceland is hot hot hot hot hot hot right now. The american carriers have been missing the boat on this although Delta is starting to pick up on the slack offering JFK year around and now offering MSP to the mix. Without a doubt a number of travelers at a with a number of home airports across the U.S. and Canada will type in Iceland on Expedia and an Air Canada option will come up, just helping to strengthen their goal of turning Toronto into a global hub.


Thank you! Finally someone sees the logic. Asides from longhauler, this thread has been filled with people that don't seem to understand what is going on here. It's an O/D route, and it's not for Icelandic people to come visit the great white north, they get enough of that at home. Torontonian's are wild about Iceland right now, it's all the buzz, this route is AC responding to the demand. They aren't trying to connect passengers, they have non-stops for that. With no feed in Iceland anyhow, I fail to see how people can jump to that conclusion.


Let's just be honest - Torontonian's may be wild about Iceland, but no way there's that many people going that warrants 3 carriers flying to KEF from YYZ & YUL.
 
whywhyzee
Posts: 1119
Joined: Tue Jan 05, 2016 3:12 am

Re: Air Canada adds YYZ/YUL-KEF

Thu Feb 02, 2017 10:14 pm

I'm not missing any point. I suggest you go back and read my post after the one you quoted here - post 13 - which I said exactly what you're saying. I know this is about trying to kill off either FI or WOW.[/quote]

You know this do you? Who told you? Where did you come across this highly strategic information?

To re-iterate, AC has no onward feed from KEF. If the Icelandic carriers are supposedly destroying AC's TATL yields, then why would AC retort by operating a flight into their hub. What would that accomplish? Not to mention 3/4x weekly A319's is nowhere near what WOW and Icelandair are offering on the routes (YYZ especially). AC is competing for the O/D tourists flying to Iceland.
Last edited by whywhyzee on Thu Feb 02, 2017 10:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
whywhyzee
Posts: 1119
Joined: Tue Jan 05, 2016 3:12 am

Re: Air Canada adds YYZ/YUL-KEF

Thu Feb 02, 2017 10:17 pm

clrd4t8koff wrote:
whywhyzee wrote:
stlgph wrote:

I love the logic here. I guess between Air Canada and their Star Alliance partners offering more flights and choices every day they clearly are at a disadvantage to Icelandair and Wow Air to offering folks service to Europe. Gosh, I hope they make it.


It seems many of you are missing the point. Iceland is hot hot hot hot hot hot right now. The american carriers have been missing the boat on this although Delta is starting to pick up on the slack offering JFK year around and now offering MSP to the mix. Without a doubt a number of travelers at a with a number of home airports across the U.S. and Canada will type in Iceland on Expedia and an Air Canada option will come up, just helping to strengthen their goal of turning Toronto into a global hub.


Thank you! Finally someone sees the logic. Asides from longhauler, this thread has been filled with people that don't seem to understand what is going on here. It's an O/D route, and it's not for Icelandic people to come visit the great white north, they get enough of that at home. Torontonian's are wild about Iceland right now, it's all the buzz, this route is AC responding to the demand. They aren't trying to connect passengers, they have non-stops for that. With no feed in Iceland anyhow, I fail to see how people can jump to that conclusion.


Let's just be honest - Torontonian's may be wild about Iceland, but no way there's that many people going that warrants 3 carriers flying to KEF from YYZ & YUL.


Apparently there is given this announcement....FI and WOW certainly will transit a lot of pax, its not all O/D. What is evident is that there is sufficient demand for 3 carriers when considering O/D and Connections to Europe.
 
Thomaas
Posts: 686
Joined: Sun Apr 27, 2014 10:52 pm

Re: Air Canada adds YYZ/YUL-KEF

Thu Feb 02, 2017 10:26 pm

People seem to be missing that although AC doesn't have feed in KEF, it does have quite a bit of feed in YYZ and to some extend YUL. I wouldn't be surprised to see this route go daily from YYZ at some point since it opens up a lot of one-stop options to Iceland that weren't offered before. FI and WOW will never serve the likes of CVG, PIT, IND only to name a few that AC will open up from YYZ.
 
whywhyzee
Posts: 1119
Joined: Tue Jan 05, 2016 3:12 am

Re: Air Canada adds YYZ/YUL-KEF

Thu Feb 02, 2017 10:28 pm

Thomaas wrote:
People seem to be missing that although AC doesn't have feed in KEF, it does have quite a bit of feed in YYZ and to some extend YUL. I wouldn't be surprised to see this route go daily from YYZ at some point since it opens up a lot of one-stop options to Iceland that weren't offered before. FI and WOW will never serve the likes of CVG, PIT, IND only to name a few that AC will open up from YYZ.


That is another great option AC has to boost loads, and it fits snugly with their current strategy of being a stopping off point for flights to Europe.
 
CRJ900
Posts: 2392
Joined: Wed Jun 02, 2004 2:48 am

Re: Air Canada adds YYZ/YUL-KEF

Thu Feb 02, 2017 10:50 pm

Maybe YYZ-KEF-YUL might be a nice route to show off the new CS300 that AC is taking, if they are A319 replacements anyway.
Come, fly the prevailing winds with me
 
Ulsterman81
Posts: 3
Joined: Thu Mar 24, 2016 11:38 pm

Re: Air Canada adds YYZ/YUL-KEF

Thu Feb 02, 2017 10:58 pm

Thomaas wrote:
People seem to be missing that although AC doesn't have feed in KEF, it does have quite a bit of feed in YYZ and to some extend YUL. I wouldn't be surprised to see this route go daily from YYZ at some point since it opens up a lot of one-stop options to Iceland that weren't offered before. FI and WOW will never serve the likes of CVG, PIT, IND only to name a few that AC will open up from YYZ.


WOW starts PIT June 17 2017.
http://www.post-gazette.com/news/transp ... 1611070053
 
clrd4t8koff
Posts: 1684
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2005 3:57 am

Re: Air Canada adds YYZ/YUL-KEF

Thu Feb 02, 2017 11:30 pm

Thomaas wrote:
People seem to be missing that although AC doesn't have feed in KEF, it does have quite a bit of feed in YYZ and to some extend YUL. I wouldn't be surprised to see this route go daily from YYZ at some point since it opens up a lot of one-stop options to Iceland that weren't offered before. FI and WOW will never serve the likes of CVG, PIT, IND only to name a few that AC will open up from YYZ.


IF people from CVG, PIT & IND wanted to fly to KEF they've had the ability to for years on DL via JFK. Why would they ever want to go through YYZ or YUL and have to clear customs, plus it's not even daily on AC and DL is. Try again.
 
clrd4t8koff
Posts: 1684
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2005 3:57 am

Re: Air Canada adds YYZ/YUL-KEF

Thu Feb 02, 2017 11:32 pm

whywhyzee wrote:
Thomaas wrote:
People seem to be missing that although AC doesn't have feed in KEF, it does have quite a bit of feed in YYZ and to some extend YUL. I wouldn't be surprised to see this route go daily from YYZ at some point since it opens up a lot of one-stop options to Iceland that weren't offered before. FI and WOW will never serve the likes of CVG, PIT, IND only to name a few that AC will open up from YYZ.


That is another great option AC has to boost loads, and it fits snugly with their current strategy of being a stopping off point for flights to Europe.


It's NOT a great option. Nobody in the U.S. needs to go through YYZ or YUL to get to KEF. Why go through all that hassle of going through customs, when they can easily fly DL, which has daily service from JFK and service from MSP.
 
Topguncanada
Posts: 59
Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2016 6:44 am

Re: Air Canada adds YYZ/YUL-KEF

Thu Feb 02, 2017 11:44 pm

Connecting in YYZ is extremely hassle free nowadays especially given it's one terminal in the case of AC. Though you do briefly have to show your passport to a CBSA officer it is by no means the full treatment customs experience passengers generally receive when arriving in Canada.

https://www.torontopearson.com/Connecting.aspx#

Connecting in YYZ (like YVR) is very streamlined and easy. Much quicker and easier than you would think. AC and the GTAA have put a lot of money, thought and time into the connection process which is a large reason why ACs USA to worldwide connections are growing so rapidly.
 
User avatar
longhauler
Posts: 6488
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 12:00 am

Re: Air Canada adds YYZ/YUL-KEF

Thu Feb 02, 2017 11:50 pm

clrd4t8koff wrote:
It's NOT a great option. Nobody in the U.S. needs to go through YYZ or YUL to get to KEF. Why go through all that hassle of going through customs, when they can easily fly DL, which has daily service from JFK and service from MSP.

YYZ and YUL offers a transit product of which JFK and MSP could only dream. (YVR as well, but here, that is not pertinent). Americans are quickly discovering the advantages of flying through Canada instead of JFK, MSP, ORD, MIA, etc to Europe. (South American and Asia as well, but again, here that is not pertinent). Air Canada announced the numbers during the last financial report ... it was impressive the number of Americans flying through Canada.

Why?

First of all, on a trip from the US through YYZ or YUL to an international flight, there is no Customs. They get off their American flight, pass through passport control then down directly to the International departure area. No Customs, No Security and you are in an area with dozens of shops, restaurants, lounges, etc. A transit time of 60 minutes is more than possible, as your bags are transferred for you.

On the return, that's where it really shines. Arrive from your international flight, no Canadian Customs, no security (this is new), take a shortcut to US preclearance area, clear US customs there, then down to your US flight. Again, you don't have to transfer your bags. This is a new service offered. The Customs officer asks you to identify your bag by video, then you are on your way. Again ... a 60 minute transfer is possible. Try that in ORD, JFK or MIA!

When you arrive an your final American destination, you are a domestic flight. Americans are catching on, and it is very popular. There is no way to compete against a non-stop, but if the passenger has to choose between going through JFK, ORD, MIA or YYZ ... more and more are choosing a Canadian transfer.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
Thenoflyzone
Posts: 3013
Joined: Sun Jan 07, 2001 4:42 am

Re: Air Canada adds YYZ/YUL-KEF

Fri Feb 03, 2017 2:29 am

^
OSS. (one stop security)

Recently started at YUL. From select US destinations i hear.
us Air Traffic Controllers have a good record, we haven't left one up there yet !!
 
Thenoflyzone
Posts: 3013
Joined: Sun Jan 07, 2001 4:42 am

Re: Air Canada adds YYZ/YUL-KEF

Sat Feb 04, 2017 3:00 pm

sixtyseven wrote:

It's 60mins or 120 if they get the required equipment.

Sonde goes flat and 60mins won't hack it.

Will they get 120? Wouldn't be cheap and it'd really be for this one route which could be a throw away if it doesn't work.


I can confirm WOW Air doesn't have ETOPS on their A321s and they seem to be doing fine from NA to KEF.

I doubt Rouge will outfit an A319 or two for ETOPS 120. If Sonde goes flat, UAK should be usable by an A319 as an alternate.


longhauler wrote:

While ETOPS is not an issue to Iceland, the aircraft may need 8.33 kHz frequency spacing and CPDLC as required for European air regs / operations.


I checked WOW Air's flight plan yesterday from YUL. No CPDLC for their A321s, so it is not a requirement for Iceland.

Eurocontrol manages the implementation of 8.33 kHz spacing across Europe, and Iceland isn't a member state. So seems as though that won't be needed either.
us Air Traffic Controllers have a good record, we haven't left one up there yet !!
 
drgmobile
Posts: 989
Joined: Tue Aug 29, 2006 3:06 am

Re: Air Canada adds YYZ/YUL-KEF

Sun Feb 05, 2017 7:23 pm

stlgph wrote:
drgmobile wrote:
clrd4t8koff wrote:
I wonder how successful this will be for AC? I'd imagine most people flying FI or WOW currently aren't flying them to go to Iceland, they're flying onwards to EU.


You're missing the point. Iceland is a country of 320,000 and is already served from Canada by two carriers, which have an ability that Air Canada cannot match to connect travellers to Europe beyond Iceland. Of course Air Canada isn't going to be commercially successful with these flights. It's about driving out Icelandair and WOW while collecting some data along the way about the characteristics of the market.


I love the logic here. I guess between Air Canada and their Star Alliance partners offering more flights and choices every day they clearly are at a disadvantage to Icelandair and Wow Air to offering folks service to Europe. Gosh, I hope they make it.


It seems many of you are missing the point. Iceland is hot hot hot hot hot hot right now. The american carriers have been missing the boat on this although Delta is starting to pick up on the slack offering JFK year around and now offering MSP to the mix. Without a doubt a number of travelers at a with a number of home airports across the U.S. and Canada will type in Iceland on Expedia and an Air Canada option will come up, just helping to strengthen their goal of turning Toronto into a global hub.


Fair enough. Certainly the market is hot and if there really is organic demand than the Canadian hubs are compelling. My understanding is that the Icelandic tourism market was getting a bit crowded though. So it is a niche market nearing capacity and with lots of low cost competition from a bunch of North American gateways. Most of my friends have gone (which is odd when you think about it).

Saying that, I haven't gone yet and it is on my list to visit. As an Air Canada frequent flyer I would pay a bit more for the Air Canada product. If there are enough folks with similar affiliations for Star Alliance in the Americas, perhaps it is a niche route that works -- like St. John's to Europe.

Atlantic City Lab (May, 2016)
http://www.citylab.com/navigator/2016/0 ... nd/484088/
 
mjoelnir
Posts: 9411
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:06 pm

Re: Air Canada adds YYZ/YUL-KEF

Sun Feb 05, 2017 9:18 pm

I think that AC is simply adding a destination. All talk about killing off FI or WOW is just talk. The competition on the North American side is benign, just Delta and now Air Canada.
When Delta started flying JFK-KEF and MSP-KEF the talk here on A.net was about Delta pushing FI out. Since than FI has added flights and Delta is doing well on those routes.
The main competition to FI is WOW and vice versa. The competition on the European side is a fierce. SAS, Norwegian, EasyJet, Wizz, Air Berlin, BA year round and 15 further airlines added during the summer.
As usual what North Americans call competition is hardly competition in Europe.

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