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enilria
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Are WOW and Norwegian Restricted from Expanding in Canada?

Wed Feb 01, 2017 7:46 pm

I know that Emirates has a frequency limit in Canada. Do Norwegian or WOW face any service limitations?

I'm kind of surprised WOW can't do daily service to YUL and YYZ, plus that DY isn't in the market at all. It would seem their FDF/PTP service would work better from Canada than BWI. Is there a bilateral issue? Political issue? Or just they haven't tried yet?
Last edited by enilria on Wed Feb 01, 2017 8:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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kelvin933
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Re: Are WOW and Norwegian Restricted from Expanding in Canada?

Wed Feb 01, 2017 8:03 pm

The restrictions on Wow in 2016 were the number of A321s they had, when the Wow S17 schedule is published it should have daily flights for both KEF-YUL and KEF-YYZ.
As I understand under the Canada-EU Open Skies agreement, Canada has very limited powers to impose seat or frequency restrictions on Icelandic and Norwegian airlines (or EU airlines). For FI the agreement was a major change because prior to the agreement there were restrictions on the number of flights they were allowed to fly imposed by Transport Canada.
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enilria
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Re: Are WOW and Norwegian Restricted from Expanding in Canada?

Wed Feb 01, 2017 8:06 pm

kelvin933 wrote:
The restrictions on Wow in 2016 were the number of A321s they had, when the Wow S17 schedule is published it should have daily flights for both KEF-YUL and KEF-YYZ.
As I understand under the Canada-EU Open Skies agreement, Canada has very limited powers to impose seat or frequency restrictions on Icelandic and Norwegian airlines (or EU airlines). For FI the agreement was a major change because prior to the agreement there were restrictions on the number of flights they were allowed to fly imposed by Transport Canada.

Do you expect that DY will get a lot of flack that could delay them like they saw in the USA, or less of an issue?
 
mjoelnir
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Re: Are WOW and Norwegian Restricted from Expanding in Canada?

Wed Feb 01, 2017 8:18 pm

enilria wrote:
I know that Emirates has a frequency limit in Canada. Do Norwegian or WOW face any service limitations?


No
 
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Re: Are WOW and Norwegian Restricted from Expanding in Canada?

Wed Feb 01, 2017 8:25 pm

enilria wrote:
Do you expect that DY will get a lot of flack that could delay them like they saw in the USA, or less of an issue?


The USA was or is breaching the open skies agreement in regards to Norwegian, they caved when the European side got serious. Do you expect that Canada would stress the open sky agreement?
The proper answer is for Canadian airlines to start competing.
 
SCQ83
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Re: Are WOW and Norwegian Restricted from Expanding in Canada?

Wed Feb 01, 2017 8:31 pm

I assume several reasons:

- Canada is only 35M people. That is less than the population of California. In a country the size of the US.
- Canada has several stablished long-haul leisure carriers: Air Transat, Air Canada Rouge or WestJet.
- Canada has little touristic interest for most Europeans. Canada is not California, Florida or New York. Norwegian is ultimately an European leisure carrier, so it caters to the tastes of European passengers.
 
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Polot
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Re: Are WOW and Norwegian Restricted from Expanding in Canada?

Wed Feb 01, 2017 8:45 pm

SCQ83 wrote:

And on top of those reasons Canada is usually more expensive to operate to (although I believe Canada has been working to lower taxes/fee and make Canadian airports more competitive).
 
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reidar76
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Re: Are WOW and Norwegian Restricted from Expanding in Canada?

Wed Feb 01, 2017 9:47 pm

I could see Norwegian trying out the interest from Scandinavia, London and maybe Paris and Nice, to Montreal, Québec and Toronto. Maybe only seasonal, and maybe only 2 x per week. Their new 737-8 MAX will be excellent for the EU-Canada market, as its only about 2700 nm to 2900 nm great-circle distance between many city pairs.

Norwegian already fly from the French Caribbean Islands (EU) to New York. I wouldn't be surprised if they also add flights from the French Caribbean Islands to the French parts of Canada. Québec and Montreal to the Canary islands is also within 737-8 MAX range (2800 nm).
 
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enilria
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Re: Are WOW and Norwegian Restricted from Expanding in Canada?

Wed Feb 01, 2017 9:51 pm

I was inspired to this because I just saw an article where WestJet said they feel they are the only necessary LCC for Canada and that they will defend that position. I guess the question is whether they will resort to a political solution.
 
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Re: Are WOW and Norwegian Restricted from Expanding in Canada?

Wed Feb 01, 2017 10:12 pm

I think MAX-operated services to Eastern Canada may come about from Ireland and the UK.
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pablo359
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Re: Are WOW and Norwegian Restricted from Expanding in Canada?

Wed Feb 01, 2017 10:17 pm

I can't see Norwegian operating any Canada-TFN or LPA flights. Plenty of beach destinations closer for Canadians to choose. However I wouldn't rule out some NYC or Florida flights, or an expansion to the Caribbean to places like SDQ with B738MAX.
 
whywhyzee
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Re: Are WOW and Norwegian Restricted from Expanding in Canada?

Thu Feb 02, 2017 1:47 am

SCQ83 wrote:
I assume several reasons:

- Canada has little touristic interest for most Europeans. Canada is not California, Florida or New York. Norwegian is ultimately an European leisure carrier, so it caters to the tastes of European passengers.


Lol what? In 2015, Canada saw over 1.6 million French, British and German tourists alone. That is not including any other european countries which would also contribute. Yes I am biased, however, I think it goes without saying that Canada has some of the worlds most pristine scenery and natural beauty. There is no shortage of European visitors to Canada.

I also might add that Canadians are also rather fond of travelling abroad. Roughly 4.1 million Canadians visited England, France, Germany, Spain, Ireland and the Netherlands in 2015. Once again, these statistics are limited to the countries mentioned. With numbers like that, Its hard to believe that Norwegian wouldn't be able to be extremely successful in Canada, and in multiple cities.

I could be wrong, however I am pretty sure I read it here on this site that Norwegian wasn't table to operate to Canada under its Norwegian operating certificate. With its Irish certificate now up and running, things could change.

Contrary to popular belief, Canada isn't just the land of polar bears and igloos, we do exist and we are pretty cool 8-)
 
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bluefltspecial
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Re: Are WOW and Norwegian Restricted from Expanding in Canada?

Thu Feb 02, 2017 2:12 am

There are two main things that will keep Canada on the back burner.

1.) Population density. DY has their business model focused on the 787 being more than 85% full, their fares are so low because they charge the passenger a little more than what it costs to transport them from point A to B. Majority of their revenue is made from things that don't cost much money like seat selection, bags (already built into cost), meals which the pay pennies on the dollar for but charge +$30 to the pax, and then have on board sales where they mark up to 300% cost. So, they need a huge population base that is constantly traveling year round. It's also the reason they only operate some destinations a few times a week. I can see a few places like YYZ or YUL working but you have heavy competition there.

2.) Canada's airport costs. The airports I've been to in Canada are beautiful and modern, but that comes at a cost. They are however very expensive to operate in and out of. That being said, you're more likely to see DY operating into places like BUF or BTV where it's cheap to operate and people are willing to drive or take a bus to save a few hundred dollars.

That is just my .02 though.
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YVRing
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Re: Are WOW and Norwegian Restricted from Expanding in Canada?

Thu Feb 02, 2017 2:14 am

whywhyzee wrote:
SCQ83 wrote:
I assume several reasons:

- Canada has little touristic interest for most Europeans. Canada is not California, Florida or New York. Norwegian is ultimately an European leisure carrier, so it caters to the tastes of European passengers.


Lol what? In 2015, Canada saw over 1.6 million French, British and German tourists alone. That is not including any other european countries which would also contribute. Yes I am biased, however, I think it goes without saying that Canada has some of the worlds most pristine scenery and natural beauty. There is no shortage of European visitors to Canada.

I also might add that Canadians are also rather fond of travelling abroad. Roughly 4.1 million Canadians visited England, France, Germany, Spain, Ireland and the Netherlands in 2015. Once again, these statistics are limited to the countries mentioned. With numbers like that, Its hard to believe that Norwegian wouldn't be able to be extremely successful in Canada, and in multiple cities.

I could be wrong, however I am pretty sure I read it here on this site that Norwegian wasn't table to operate to Canada under its Norwegian operating certificate. With its Irish certificate now up and running, things could change.

Contrary to popular belief, Canada isn't just the land of polar bears and igloos, we do exist and we are pretty cool 8-)


Yea, we have some cool shit up here.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=RnM-zVwUM20
 
whywhyzee
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Re: Are WOW and Norwegian Restricted from Expanding in Canada?

Thu Feb 02, 2017 2:27 am

[quote="bluefltspecial"]There are two main things that will keep Canada on the back burner.

2.) Canada's airport costs. The airports I've been to in Canada are beautiful and modern, but that comes at a cost. They are however very expensive to operate in and out of. That being said, you're more likely to see DY operating into places like BUF or BTV where it's cheap to operate and people are willing to drive or take a bus to save a few hundred dollars.


This is where YVR could step in, they have some of the lowest airport costs in Canada, and are underserved to Europe compared to other Canadian cities. Furthermore, in terms of tourism, Vancouver and BC probably have the lowest seasonality, eastern Canada is great when it's warm out, but can get pretty drab in winter. BC has mountains and a great variety of winter activities.

With that being said, Toronto is the 4th largest city in North America and the 7th largest metropolitan area. Fees are excessive yes, but filling a plane wouldn't be very difficult. YYZ is growing quite rapidly, reflecting the growth levels of Toronto population wise, and tourism is something I personally believe could definitely improve. With a little bit of advertising and publicity, Norwegian could stimulate awareness of Toronto on a greater scale and build up a potentially large market.
 
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canadianpylon
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Re: Are WOW and Norwegian Restricted from Expanding in Canada?

Thu Feb 02, 2017 5:02 am

Polot wrote:
SCQ83 wrote:

And on top of those reasons Canada is usually more expensive to operate to (although I believe Canada has been working to lower taxes/fee and make Canadian airports more competitive).


Unfortunately, no, they are not.... #sadpanda
Always looking for the longest route with the most transfers.
 
BestWestern
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Re: Are WOW and Norwegian Restricted from Expanding in Canada?

Thu Feb 02, 2017 5:07 am

Seasonality.
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SCQ83
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Re: Are WOW and Norwegian Restricted from Expanding in Canada?

Thu Feb 02, 2017 7:09 am

whywhyzee wrote:
Lol what? In 2015, Canada saw over 1.6 million French, British and German tourists alone. That is not including any other european countries which would also contribute. Yes I am biased, however, I think it goes without saying that Canada has some of the worlds most pristine scenery and natural beauty. There is no shortage of European visitors to Canada.


Which is basically nothing, specially since those tourists are sparsed in a country the size of Europe, from Vancouver to Québec to Yukon to Toronto (so obviously they cannot be served by one single airport).

Compare it to NYC

2015
Total: 58.5 million
Domestic: 46.2 million
International: 12.3 million


http://www.nycandcompany.org/research/n ... stics-page
 
whywhyzee
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Re: Are WOW and Norwegian Restricted from Expanding in Canada?

Thu Feb 02, 2017 7:35 am

SCQ83 wrote:
whywhyzee wrote:
Lol what? In 2015, Canada saw over 1.6 million French, British and German tourists alone. That is not including any other european countries which would also contribute. Yes I am biased, however, I think it goes without saying that Canada has some of the worlds most pristine scenery and natural beauty. There is no shortage of European visitors to Canada.


Which is basically nothing, specially since those tourists are sparsed in a country the size of Europe, from Vancouver to Québec to Yukon to Toronto (so obviously they cannot be served by one single airport).

Compare it to NYC

2015
Total: 58.5 million
Domestic: 46.2 million
International: 12.3 million


http://www.nycandcompany.org/research/n ... stics-page


Yes they cannot be served from one single airport, but those numbers aren't drastically smaller by any stretch. In 2015, Toronto had over 40 million tourists, roughly 70% of what NYC saw. Let's compare apples to apples here.
 
SCQ83
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Re: Are WOW and Norwegian Restricted from Expanding in Canada?

Thu Feb 02, 2017 7:51 am

whywhyzee wrote:
SCQ83 wrote:
whywhyzee wrote:
Lol what? In 2015, Canada saw over 1.6 million French, British and German tourists alone. That is not including any other european countries which would also contribute. Yes I am biased, however, I think it goes without saying that Canada has some of the worlds most pristine scenery and natural beauty. There is no shortage of European visitors to Canada.


Which is basically nothing, specially since those tourists are sparsed in a country the size of Europe, from Vancouver to Québec to Yukon to Toronto (so obviously they cannot be served by one single airport).

Compare it to NYC

2015
Total: 58.5 million
Domestic: 46.2 million
International: 12.3 million


http://www.nycandcompany.org/research/n ... stics-page


Yes they cannot be served from one single airport, but those numbers aren't drastically smaller by any stretch. In 2015, Toronto had over 40 million tourists, roughly 70% of what NYC saw. Let's compare apples to apples here.


http://media.seetorontonow.com/press-re ... l-economy/

Umm 1.75 million international visitors (excluding the US) led by China. Drastically smaller than NYC and probably Miami, SFO or LAX.
 
Viscount724
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Re: Are WOW and Norwegian Restricted from Expanding in Canada?

Mon Feb 06, 2017 5:30 am

bluefltspecial wrote:

2.) Canada's airport costs. The airports I've been to in Canada are beautiful and modern, but that comes at a cost. They are however very expensive to operate in and out of. That being said, you're more likely to see DY operating into places like BUF or BTV where it's cheap to operate and people are willing to drive or take a bus to save a few hundred dollars.



The weak Canadian Dollar, currently around 77 cents US, helps offset the higher airport costs for foreign carriers.
 
mjoelnir
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Re: Are WOW and Norwegian Restricted from Expanding in Canada?

Mon Feb 06, 2017 11:00 am

The question was, do WOW or Norwegian face restrictions in Canada comparable to Emirates. The answer to that is no.
Another question is, can Canadian airlines put political pressure on the government so that restrictions are placed? My answer would be not without shooting down the complete Open Sky agreement with the EU/EEA. I would question if that would be worth it.

Regarding if there are enough tourists or not for increased air traffic, is like with the hen and the egg. Do you get tourist because there are good, efficient and affordable connections, or do you get good effective and affordable connections because there are a lot of tourists.

The argument used here on A.net that if a connection does not exist, is enough proof that such a route or connection would not needed or would not be economical feasible, is about the silliest argument one can hear, even if it was tried 10 years ago and failed, it is no proof for it failing today.
We have the example of airlines adding route after route, opening new markets, where others have not gone or failed. If we look at the expansion of FI in North America, it is exactly about opening routes that have not been there before.
FI has not long ago started Toronto, Vancouver, Montreal, Edmonton and Halifax to KEF.
On YYZ-KEF, a route that did not exist a few years ago, we get this simmer the third airline flying it.
 
Dominion301
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Re: Are WOW and Norwegian Restricted from Expanding in Canada?

Tue Feb 07, 2017 5:03 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
The question was, do WOW or Norwegian face restrictions in Canada comparable to Emirates. The answer to that is no.
Another question is, can Canadian airlines put political pressure on the government so that restrictions are placed? My answer would be not without shooting down the complete Open Sky agreement with the EU/EEA. I would question if that would be worth it.

Regarding if there are enough tourists or not for increased air traffic, is like with the hen and the egg. Do you get tourist because there are good, efficient and affordable connections, or do you get good effective and affordable connections because there are a lot of tourists.

The argument used here on A.net that if a connection does not exist, is enough proof that such a route or connection would not needed or would not be economical feasible, is about the silliest argument one can hear, even if it was tried 10 years ago and failed, it is no proof for it failing today.
We have the example of airlines adding route after route, opening new markets, where others have not gone or failed. If we look at the expansion of FI in North America, it is exactly about opening routes that have not been there before.
FI has not long ago started Toronto, Vancouver, Montreal, Edmonton and Halifax to KEF.
On YYZ-KEF, a route that did not exist a few years ago, we get this simmer the third airline flying it.


Yep you can create a new market with a new service, especially to/from a leisure market despite the much regurgitated dribble about 'if the market were there someone would already be serving it'.

Once FI have the MAX on property, I fully expect further cities in Canada to be added namely Ottawa, Winnipeg and Quebec City....unless WOW beats them to the punch.
 
slcdeltarumd11
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Re: Are WOW and Norwegian Restricted from Expanding in Canada?

Tue Feb 07, 2017 6:16 pm

Eastern Canada i think we will see WOW and Norwegian try some single aisle flights. YOW and YQB i think we perfect for seasonal less then daily service.


YXU (london ontario) i could even see work less then daily summer to europe or to the Caribbean in winter.
 
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TheLion
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Re: Are WOW and Norwegian Restricted from Expanding in Canada?

Tue Feb 07, 2017 6:37 pm

SCQ83 wrote:
Canada has little touristic interest for most Europeans.


Are you serious? Where did you get that from? Canada is actually pretty popular for Europeans and the number of markets served is increasing at a fair pace.
 
usflyer123
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Re: Are WOW and Norwegian Restricted from Expanding in Canada?

Tue Feb 07, 2017 7:00 pm

SCQ83 wrote:
whywhyzee wrote:
SCQ83 wrote:

Which is basically nothing, specially since those tourists are sparsed in a country the size of Europe, from Vancouver to Québec to Yukon to Toronto (so obviously they cannot be served by one single airport).

Compare it to NYC



http://www.nycandcompany.org/research/n ... stics-page


Yes they cannot be served from one single airport, but those numbers aren't drastically smaller by any stretch. In 2015, Toronto had over 40 million tourists, roughly 70% of what NYC saw. Let's compare apples to apples here.


http://media.seetorontonow.com/press-re ... l-economy/

Umm 1.75 million international visitors (excluding the US) led by China. Drastically smaller than NYC and probably Miami, SFO or LAX.


I would add Orlando, Boston and maybe Chicago to the list. As said above, I think DY will have tough competition with Air Transat, AC rouge and WestJet. I do think that LGW-YVR and maybe summer seasonal OSL-YVR could work if they have the planes needed.
for most people the sky is the limit. for those who love aviation, the sky is home...
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Are WOW and Norwegian Restricted from Expanding in Canada?

Tue Feb 07, 2017 8:17 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
The argument used here on A.net that if a connection does not exist, is enough proof that such a route or connection would not needed or would not be economical feasible, is about the silliest argument one can hear, even if it was tried 10 years ago and failed, it is no proof for it failing today.
We have the example of airlines adding route after route, opening new markets, where others have not gone or failed. If we look at the expansion of FI in North America, it is exactly about opening routes that have not been there before.
FI has not long ago started Toronto, Vancouver, Montreal, Edmonton and Halifax to KEF.
On YYZ-KEF, a route that did not exist a few years ago, we get this simmer the third airline flying it.


It's easy to create a market in an unrestricted space - drop the price enough. There's a market for sewage treatment plant solids - ponder that for a minute.

The proper question is, can carrier XX earn a risk-adjusted yield by operating a route, and does that return exceed returns from all other possible routes? Even smart people can lose money in the airline biz - ask Warren Buffet - but not indefinitely.

It seems the OP's question has been answered. The follow-up question - will Canadian carriers seek a political solution - is a good one. IMHO, yes, they will. The Government is susceptible to political pressure because there are so few carriers in Canada with what approximates a national footprint. As with Bombardier, some solution(s) will be cobbled together if the need arises.

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