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enilria
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Trump to Meet with Airline CEOs Thursday

Sun Feb 05, 2017 9:50 pm

It doesn't specifically say if this is about the Middle Eastern carriers, although it is certain to come up. I'm hoping at least AS and B6 will be there to counter the Big3 asks. I'd say if Fair Skies puts out a press release after the meeting then things are going to be ugly. If there is silence afterward it is probably good for the ME3.

U.S. President Donald Trump will meet with the chief executive officers of airlines on Thursday, the White House said, another in a series of meetings the new president has had with business leaders. The White House statement on Friday did not say who would attend the breakfast and "listening session."

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-t ... SKBN15J00D
 
CX747
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Re: Trump to Meet with Airline CEOs Thursday

Sun Feb 05, 2017 9:54 pm

Do we know what is supposed to come out of this meeting? What are the airline's looking for? What is the Administration looking for?
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enilria
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Re: Trump to Meet with Airline CEOs Thursday

Sun Feb 05, 2017 9:56 pm

I'm sure the visa mess will be a topic. I'm sure airspace modernization and pre-clearance are likely to be covered. ...and the ME3.
 
commavia
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Re: Trump to Meet with Airline CEOs Thursday

Sun Feb 05, 2017 10:04 pm

enilria wrote:
I'm sure the visa mess will be a topic. I'm sure airspace modernization and pre-clearance are likely to be covered. ...and the ME3.


Yep - all of those are entirely predictable topics of discussion. The attendee list will also obviously have an impact on what's discussed, and with what tone. Infrastructure investment - and specifically, airports - is almost certainly a "safe" subject for discussion since most airlines agree, at least in general, on the need for it and this administration had said a lot about the subject. That said, if it's just the CEOs of the U.S. network carriers - AA, Delta and United - then the ME3 "subsidy" issue is likely to get a lot more focus than if, say, the CEOs of JetBlue, Southwest and the cargo airlines are there. Similarly, the more airlines are represented, the more likely it is that alternative FAA ATC funding mechanisms will get attention - since just about every airline except Delta supports that. Additionally, the article didn't state it explicitly - but if, for instance, unions in addition to management are there, that, too, will clearly affect the course of the conversation.
 
Planesmart
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Re: Trump to Meet with Airline CEOs Thursday

Sun Feb 05, 2017 10:08 pm

Airspace, slot, gate and airport changes for Trump, but not high on the agenda for US3. As stated, it very much depends on the guest list, and how firmly the meeting is managed.
 
Varsity1
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Re: Trump to Meet with Airline CEOs Thursday

Sun Feb 05, 2017 10:15 pm

NAI is going to be a bigger topic than the ME3.
 
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PatrickZ80
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Re: Trump to Meet with Airline CEOs Thursday

Sun Feb 05, 2017 10:37 pm

Varsity1 wrote:
NAI is going to be a bigger topic than the ME3.


They'll probably discuss that too, but there's little they can do about it.
 
aviationaware
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Re: Trump to Meet with Airline CEOs Thursday

Sun Feb 05, 2017 10:44 pm

Will Secretary Chao be there?
 
INFINITI329
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Re: Trump to Meet with Airline CEOs Thursday

Sun Feb 05, 2017 11:09 pm

I wouldnt be surprised if pretty high on the list would be the losenig of pilot flight hour requirements for new FOs
 
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rotating14
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Re: Trump to Meet with Airline CEOs Thursday

Sun Feb 05, 2017 11:11 pm

DY?
 
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BobPatterson
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Re: Trump to Meet with Airline CEOs Thursday

Sun Feb 05, 2017 11:29 pm

aviationaware wrote:
Will Secretary Chao be there?


Excellent question. After the White House breakfast the airline execs all ought to trot over to Dept. of Transportation for a quiet meeting.

It's going to be interesting to see just how much independence the Department Secretaries have in this administration.
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sandyb123
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Re: Trump to Meet with Airline CEOs Thursday

Sun Feb 05, 2017 11:55 pm

Does 'listening session' mean Trump speaks and the airlines listen? Or maybe the opposite?

What if the ME3 are restricted in their access to US airspace on the terrorism bandwagon excuse to put America (the airlines of America) first. Given the Visa debacle this might be retaliation? After all, terrorists only fly Middle East carriers, right? (Sarcasm).

If Trump tries to interfere in a deregulated industry, that isn't going to go down well.

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frmrCapCadet
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Re: Trump to Meet with Airline CEOs Thursday

Mon Feb 06, 2017 12:25 am

I hope the issue in dysfunctional IT is raised.
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Varsity1
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Re: Trump to Meet with Airline CEOs Thursday

Mon Feb 06, 2017 12:54 am

PatrickZ80 wrote:
Varsity1 wrote:
NAI is going to be a bigger topic than the ME3.


They'll probably discuss that too, but there's little they can do about it.


The President of the United States vs. DY.

"little they can do about it"

:lol:

This website...
 
IPFreely
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Re: Trump to Meet with Airline CEOs Thursday

Mon Feb 06, 2017 1:10 am

frmrCapCadet wrote:
I hope the issue in dysfunctional IT is raised.


I second that. Not IT specifically, but the possibility of making the U.S. "tarmac rule" meaningful or maybe even bringing in a European-style passengers' bill of rights. I was not a big fan of the tarmac rule when it was enacted -- I thought airlines would operate with common sense and realize that they have a competitive advantage if other airlines hold customers hostage on planes and they don't. But the rule had little effect. All four major airlines have happily accepted seven figure fines and continue to hold customers hostage for hours. Part of the problem is that most of the fines aren't real -- they are greatly reduced by giving the airlines breaks for absurd excuses and giving them credit for the cost of re-booking passengers. If the tarmac rule is going to continue the fines need to be increased by perhaps a factor of 10. And they need to be enforced -- no excuses, no credits, no exceptions. And perhaps a good chunk of the fine needs to be returned to passengers instead of being taken by the government.
 
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TWA772LR
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Re: Trump to Meet with Airline CEOs Thursday

Mon Feb 06, 2017 1:39 am

I hope NextGen ATC is on the agenda, as well as making more airports CATIIIB approved. This would help a lot not just with irrops, but with airspace congestion.
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JayBCNLON
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Re: Trump to Meet with Airline CEOs Thursday

Tue Feb 07, 2017 8:35 am

He said "buy American, hire American" .... so maybe US airlines can only buy Boeing ... all flights to US on Boeing planes ...
 
Aither
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Re: Trump to Meet with Airline CEOs Thursday

Tue Feb 07, 2017 8:45 am

Strangely I never hear the US airlines complaining about Chinese airlines massive routes subsidies... why such a difference with the ME3?
Never trust the obvious
 
VSMUT
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Re: Trump to Meet with Airline CEOs Thursday

Tue Feb 07, 2017 8:45 am

JayBCNLON wrote:
He said "buy American, hire American" .... so maybe US airlines can only buy Boeing ... all flights to US on Boeing planes ...


Airbus makes A320s in the US these days, remember? ;) They even make them in a state that voted for Trump, unlike Boeing and Seattle...
 
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Re: Trump to Meet with Airline CEOs Thursday

Tue Feb 07, 2017 1:51 pm

Trump should give incentives to airlines to bring aircraft maintenance back into the US. Currently, all of United's widebody heavy maintenance is performed outside of the US.
 
ExDubai
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Re: Trump to Meet with Airline CEOs Thursday

Tue Feb 07, 2017 2:01 pm

JayBCNLON wrote:
He said "buy American, hire American" .... so maybe US airlines can only buy Boeing ... all flights to US on Boeing planes ...

So what, other countries will take reciprocative actions. So all flights to Europe only on Airbus..... This xxxx measurement contest doesn't make any sense.
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enilria
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Re: Trump to Meet with Airline CEOs Thursday

Tue Feb 07, 2017 2:09 pm

ME3 is a real question mark, but as a populist I don't see how Trump can be happy with the airlines and I think we saw that in his Tweet aimed at DL's IT meltdown on visa ban weekend. Absent the ME3, I think we will something along the lines of what we are seeing with the cable companies. IMHO, I think he will remove regulation while attempting to create an environment supportive of new upstart airlines.
 
PanHAM
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Re: Trump to Meet with Airline CEOs Thursday

Tue Feb 07, 2017 2:29 pm

JayBCNLON wrote:
He said "buy American, hire American" .... so maybe US airlines can only buy Boeing ... all flights to US on Boeing planes ...


I'd love that, in return EU carriers could demand that traffic rights could be given only to flights carried out with Airbus equipment
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zeke
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Re: Trump to Meet with Airline CEOs Thursday

Tue Feb 07, 2017 4:01 pm

CX747 wrote:
Do we know what is supposed to come out of this meeting? What are the airline's looking for? What is the Administration looking for?


Probably just a simple plan to have the airlines that are not US carriers from the seven Continents of the World namely North America, South America, Antarctica, Europe, Asia, Africa and Australia banned from flying into the US. The number 7 was chosen as is not only a Mersenne prime but also a double Mersenne prime. It is also a Newman–Shanks–Williams prime, a Woodall prime, a factorial prime, a lucky prime, a happy number, a safe prime, and the fourth Heegner number. A justice department spokesman was quoted as saying that primes are a threat to national security and the Constitution gave the president the power under these circumstances to ban the airlines from the seven Continents of the World.

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joeljack
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Re: Trump to Meet with Airline CEOs Thursday

Tue Feb 07, 2017 4:13 pm

Maybe DAL airport will be a conversation and we can get rid of this silly 20 gate limit and 4 years from now this airport will have 50 gates, and a light rail connection directly to the airport! :)
 
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Re: Trump to Meet with Airline CEOs Thursday

Tue Feb 07, 2017 5:18 pm

ExDubai wrote:
JayBCNLON wrote:
He said "buy American, hire American" .... so maybe US airlines can only buy Boeing ... all flights to US on Boeing planes ...

So what, other countries will take reciprocative actions. So all flights to Europe only on Airbus..... This xxxx measurement contest doesn't make any sense.


To add; European carriers have healthily bought Boeing products, since the start of the company (in many cases, both...). Demanding that U.S. carriers only buy Boeing - would have a MAJOR negative effect on Boeing's business. It's not as if the rest of the World, will sit idly by, and buy, by command of will. The knock on effects will be significant, and I cannot envision a market where the current administration has curried favor, with which to alternatively sell that many aircraft.

The current administration has angered and/or soured so many nations that I cannot imagine where such a notion (buy American, hire American); that it could be supported in an actual working, modern economy. Pressing past the issue that Airbus has a major manufacturing plant in the U.S., and not touching on the issue of retaliation, how will anyone but WN actually benefit? No other major carrier in the nation operates and all-Boeing fleet. The Legacy 3 all have outstanding order with Airbus (for aircraft that will prove pivotal for them in the future). Should they cancel? Will Boeing offer premium slots and comparable pricing? Will Boeing be able to offer superior financing terms and/or support package? What will then become of Airbus U.S., and their staff at the manufacturing plant here? Or pilots certified to fly exclusively on Airbus products - will the same jobs, and salary capabilities be possible in an all-Boeing fleet?

If we jump to the international front - and retaliatory 'strikes' occur - where other nations 'close' their requirements, to whom will Boeing then use, as substitute - for that market? Backing to my original point, it is not as if Boeing could assume the loss of international customers will be substituted by U.S. based carriers - and not at all so, healthily or profitably even medium term. The current administration, has - in as many days, soured relations with as many nations - from Mexico, to the PRC, to the Germany, to the loyal Ally Australia. The question then becomes; If you alienate all of your export partners, and your local carriers will not ever be able to properly pick up the slack of those orders lost; indeed who will pick up that slack? From every bussiness accounting, in the modern era - Boeing will bear the brunt of that reality - and I suppose that their well 'rooted' support, and with Congressional assistance; a message could be made to the current Administration that they should not be as responsible for that loss. If there were justice left to the World, sanity would prevail. However, much more likely is that a tax cut/'loans' will be procured (the chagrin of the WTO about subsidies will sprinkle like sugar on the top of it all) and the ultimate cost will be passed to the U.S. Tax payer. As is, the current administration has quite a heavy bill of spending, and so - the question becomes; will the future U.S. citizen be 'taxed out' to approve future 'bailouts'?

Returning to the original topic, though - there is quite some to discuss. Security is likely the largest issues at present, and airlines are likely keen to gauge how the current administration not only deals with, but views specific issues, threats, or common concerns. Despite the current administration blitzkrieg-style informational relationship, and the 'now and here' thinking that it evokes - I have to trust that industry leaders actively discuss some of their longer-range concerns, and stress some of the long-held grievances. A Trump Presidency will likely be a greater opportunity than most in recent history, for airlines (as large parts of the U.S. economy, and also as massive corporations based in the U.S.) to have greater control in the tools (airports, facilities, routes) and practices that they use. I could well see a Trump Presidency being receptive to discussion of not necessarily exclusion of foreign carriers, but greater use of U.S. carriers to compete. I can see carriers asking for better facilities, and like many have stated - that is an issue that will sell well with almost everyone concerned (airlines, and perhaps even tax-payers, if not a break-even expectation wise). What I can hope for, is that Trump understands at least a little of where the airlines are coming from, and can relate a little, in part - to the challenges that they are facing. As a President, he will have to temper their fears/concerns/demands, and his not being completely alien to their concerns bodes well for them.

If I can muster any positive hope - it is that as the U.S. carriers are large corporations, and well supported by Wall Street, and as Mr. Trump has experience with airlines (as superficially as it may have been) - the middle ground is more fertile, than most - in seeing some of the concerns of the airlines aired more openly and freely than perhaps any time in the past 20 years.
 
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Re: Trump to Meet with Airline CEOs Thursday

Tue Feb 07, 2017 5:31 pm

Trump will ultimately side with manufacturers like Boeing, thus customers like Norwegian that buy American assembled planes while Delta is dumping 787 orders in favor of AB foreign assembled tubes. Norweigian is promising to create American Jobs and reduces cost for American citizens. Things that Trump can tout err...Tweet about while the American carriers only have the status quo to tout.
 
Varsity1
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Re: Trump to Meet with Airline CEOs Thursday

Tue Feb 07, 2017 7:35 pm

http://video.foxnews.com/v/530828270400 ... show-clips

Anti NAI picking up traction in the media.

US carriers comprise 5% of the U.S.'s GDP. You have an entire sector going to battle with a single company.

Not a battle Boeing/NAI is poised to win.
 
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JetBuddy
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Re: Trump to Meet with Airline CEOs Thursday

Tue Feb 07, 2017 7:49 pm

During the White House press briefing today, Press Secretary Sean Spicer was asked about Norwegian and Emirates. The question was more directed towards Norwegian and and their temporary carrier permit. Basically Spicer responded that as far as he knew, Norwegian employed 50% US crew on these long haul aircraft, flew Boeing airplanes, and that there was a clear contribution to the US economy through their operations.

All of this is good news for Norwegian, and if Spicer is on par with President Trump on this - maybe there won't be such a protectionistic stance against them as some of us have predicted.

http://youtu.be/XIaoJ8137t4?t=1h12m56s
 
KarlB737
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Re: Trump to Meet with Airline CEOs Thursday

Tue Feb 07, 2017 7:51 pm

enilria wrote:
It doesn't specifically say if this is about the Middle Eastern carriers, although it is certain to come up.


I just viewed the "daily press briefing" and a reference to Norwegian Air came up in the discussion. Apparently there have been some favors granted to Norwegian however it was pointed out that there were many American employees as part of that airline so time will tell. It's possible that some of the discussion will be on CSPAN.
 
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Re: Trump to Meet with Airline CEOs Thursday

Tue Feb 07, 2017 8:06 pm

JayBCNLON wrote:
He said "buy American, hire American" .... so maybe US airlines can only buy Boeing ... all flights to US on Boeing planes ...


It is easy to explain and RA explained several times. System is rigged to help foreign airlines, federal EXIM, WA state subsidies and volume discounts. Boeing ignored 4000 plane US market and bet on 300-600 plane ME market. When US and State governments themselves are helping foreign carriers, you cannot pullout national solidarity card on commercial airlines.
All posts are just opinions.
 
winginit
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Re: Trump to Meet with Airline CEOs Thursday

Tue Feb 07, 2017 8:17 pm

Aither wrote:
Strangely I never hear the US airlines complaining about Chinese airlines massive routes subsidies... why such a difference with the ME3?


Nothing strange about it - there is no open skies agreement between China and the United States.
 
MSJYOP28Apilot
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Re: Trump to Meet with Airline CEOs Thursday

Tue Feb 07, 2017 8:58 pm

JetBuddy wrote:
During the White House press briefing today, Press Secretary Sean Spicer was asked about Norwegian and Emirates. The question was more directed towards Norwegian and and their temporary carrier permit. Basically Spicer responded that as far as he knew, Norwegian employed 50% US crew on these long haul aircraft, flew Boeing airplanes, and that there was a clear contribution to the US economy through their operations.

All of this is good news for Norwegian, and if Spicer is on par with President Trump on this - maybe there won't be such a protectionistic stance against them as some of us have predicted.

http://youtu.be/XIaoJ8137t4?t=1h12m56s


But how much of that is posturing for negotiations? Surely, if Trump could negotiate more blue collar maintenance jobs to be brought back to the US that have been outsourced then it stands to reason that NAI and ME3 restrictions could be the bargaining chip. But to make the deal, you need to let the other side know that you are just as happy with the way things are now and wont settle for a bad deal.
 
RL757PVD
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Re: Trump to Meet with Airline CEOs Thursday

Tue Feb 07, 2017 9:09 pm

So how is the spin going to be when Norwegian cancels Billions in Boeing orders and Boeing announces mass layoffs, all for routes that the US airlines would never touch, at the same time as they are not growing and not hiring. That sounds like a great win for the american people and economy.
Experience is what you get when what you thought would work out didn't!
 
McG1967
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Re: Trump to Meet with Airline CEOs Thursday

Tue Feb 07, 2017 9:24 pm

Currently there 306 orders for the 777-X series. About 3/4's of these orders are from the ME3 - Emirates 150, Qatar 60, Etihad 25.

Any cancellation of orders as a result of lost traffic rights could lead to question marks around the viability of the 777-X programme.
 
jumbojet
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Re: Trump to Meet with Airline CEOs Thursday

Tue Feb 07, 2017 9:47 pm

so is the meeting just for the legacy, network carriers or are the regionals such as JetBlue and Alaska also invited? What about the LCC's, what role if any can they play in this meeting?
 
ual777
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Re: Trump to Meet with Airline CEOs Thursday

Tue Feb 07, 2017 10:03 pm

RL757PVD wrote:
So how is the spin going to be when Norwegian cancels Billions in Boeing orders and Boeing announces mass layoffs, all for routes that the US airlines would never touch, at the same time as they are not growing and not hiring. That sounds like a great win for the american people and economy.


This is false. The US3 are hiring thousands of pilots every year and have been since around late 2012. That doesn't even include WN, NK, VA, B6, and AS who are hiring full bore as well. They have also been hiring hundreds (if not thousands) of flight attendants, mechanics, rampers, and other staff.

Norwegian likes to trumpet that they hire US workers, but so far it's mostly been flight attendants working on contracts under awful terms. It's been so bad there is already a unionization drive.

They further claim they want to hire pilots for an FLL base, but anyone hired with an FAA license has two years to convert it to an EASA license (a process that costs thousands of dollars and something like 13 written exams).

Oh, and let's not forget that said pilot receives NO retirement plan of any sort, is paid far less than what comprable companies pay in the US, works as a contractor under almost non-existent work rules, and has to sign a $30,000 dollar training bond over 3 or 4 years that forces you to stay as an OSM contractor.

It's a publicity stunt on Norwegian's part and nothing more.
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par13del
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Re: Trump to Meet with Airline CEOs Thursday

Tue Feb 07, 2017 10:13 pm

"Boeing ignored 4000 plane US market and bet on 300-600 plane ME market."
Considering that US airlines ordering non-Boeing a/c drove Boeing to create the NG series, NW skipped on the 777 and the USA was at one time the largest operator of Airbus a/c, either those airlines are non-professional or the US market is so huge that it can accommodate both OEM's.
I think you have a straw man argument here, after all, US carriers did not order the 777W until it was in its sunset years, so why would they be expected to order its replacement the 777X when some have already ordered its Airbus replacement?
 
RL757PVD
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Re: Trump to Meet with Airline CEOs Thursday

Tue Feb 07, 2017 10:34 pm

ual777 wrote:

Norwegian likes to trumpet that they hire US workers, but so far it's mostly been flight attendants working on contracts under awful terms. It's been so bad there is already a unionization drive.

They further claim they want to hire pilots for an FLL base, but anyone hired with an FAA license has two years to convert it to an EASA license (a process that costs thousands of dollars and something like 13 written exams).

Oh, and let's not forget that said pilot receives NO retirement plan of any sort, is paid far less than what comprable companies pay in the US, works as a contractor under almost non-existent work rules, and has to sign a $30,000 dollar training bond over 3 or 4 years that forces you to stay as an OSM contractor.

It's a publicity stunt on Norwegian's part and nothing more.


That sounds to be like a supply and demand problem, If someone wants to work under those conditions, let them and let the market sort that out.

But lets not kid ourselves that the airlines have been doing any favors for the traveling public, the only notable growth has been competitive responses in top markets while cutting services (basic economy) and dropping service to smaller markets.
Experience is what you get when what you thought would work out didn't!
 
FlyUSAir
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Re: Trump to Meet with Airline CEOs Thursday

Tue Feb 07, 2017 10:35 pm

I can't stand the US3 not only for their contempt of other airlines but also other US airlines like WN, B6, AS, HA, NK, and G4. Want an example of this? AA and the whole Dallas Love Field fiasco.
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n272wa
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Re: Trump to Meet with Airline CEOs Thursday

Tue Feb 07, 2017 10:52 pm

Today, White House Press Secretary Sean Spicer said when it comes to the meeting, the president will want to talk about economic growth and job creation and keeping the country safe.

He said his understanding was that 50% of the Norwegian crews were going to be American-based and they were going to be flying Boeing planes on the transatlantic routes.

Responding to a question about whether the president would "upend" the foreign carrier permit issued under the Obama administration, Mr Spicer said the US currently had a "huge economic interest" in that deal.

He said he did not want to "get ahead of the president" on the issue but it was a matter of US jobs - both in terms of the people who would be serving the planes and the people who are building them.
 
oslmgm
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Re: Trump to Meet with Airline CEOs Thursday

Tue Feb 07, 2017 11:03 pm

KarlB737 wrote:
I just viewed the "daily press briefing" and a reference to Norwegian Air came up in the discussion. Apparently there have been some favors granted to Norwegian however it was pointed out that there were many American employees as part of that airline so time will tell. It's possible that some of the discussion will be on CSPAN.

Favors...??? :roll: The journalist said that Norwegian Air got a "special advantage" from the Obama administration, which is bollocks. He also called it a violation of the "Blue Skies Act". He obviously hasn't done his research.

If you were thinking of something else when you wrote "Apparently there have been some favors granted to Norwegian", please specify.
 
Ryanair01
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Re: Trump to Meet with Airline CEOs Thursday

Tue Feb 07, 2017 11:32 pm

The administration won't hit NAI because they are investing billions into the US via hundreds of new Boeing planes and then employing American workers to operate them. I agree the picture is much more complex, but at Washington level they won't get past that first sentence. Norwegian are shrewd, I'll give them that.

ME3 is murkier. Al Udeid is pretty important to US intelligence and Qatar have played along very nicely over it - Trump needs this to tackle ISIS, not to mention Qatari oil. Equally UAE still has a lot of oil and the oil lobby frankly outweighs the airlines (not least with Tillerson as SoS) - not to mention Boeing and GE who will be pro ME3. So whilst instinctively it might feel like ME3 could be losers, the administration is so closely tied to the oil lobby it seems hard to imagine anything will actually happen beyond a few tweets.
 
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lesfalls
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Re: Trump to Meet with Airline CEOs Thursday

Tue Feb 07, 2017 11:38 pm

ual777 wrote:
RL757PVD wrote:
So how is the spin going to be when Norwegian cancels Billions in Boeing orders and Boeing announces mass layoffs, all for routes that the US airlines would never touch, at the same time as they are not growing and not hiring. That sounds like a great win for the american people and economy.


This is false. The US3 are hiring thousands of pilots every year and have been since around late 2012. That doesn't even include WN, NK, VA, B6, and AS who are hiring full bore as well. They have also been hiring hundreds (if not thousands) of flight attendants, mechanics, rampers, and other staff.

Norwegian likes to trumpet that they hire US workers, but so far it's mostly been flight attendants working on contracts under awful terms. It's been so bad there is already a unionization drive.

They further claim they want to hire pilots for an FLL base, but anyone hired with an FAA license has two years to convert it to an EASA license (a process that costs thousands of dollars and something like 13 written exams).

Oh, and let's not forget that said pilot receives NO retirement plan of any sort, is paid far less than what comprable companies pay in the US, works as a contractor under almost non-existent work rules, and has to sign a $30,000 dollar training bond over 3 or 4 years that forces you to stay as an OSM contractor.

It's a publicity stunt on Norwegian's part and nothing more.

I have flown DY 8x longhaul with them and I have always talked to the crew and the majority said that they like the company. There was a stewardess I even spoke to who worked for UA for 10 years and said she prefered DY a lot more and she could have stayed at UA but decided to change.
Lufthansa: Einfach ein bisschen besser.
 
ual777
Posts: 1642
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2003 6:18 am

Re: Trump to Meet with Airline CEOs Thursday

Tue Feb 07, 2017 11:47 pm

RL757PVD wrote:
ual777 wrote:

Norwegian likes to trumpet that they hire US workers, but so far it's mostly been flight attendants working on contracts under awful terms. It's been so bad there is already a unionization drive.

They further claim they want to hire pilots for an FLL base, but anyone hired with an FAA license has two years to convert it to an EASA license (a process that costs thousands of dollars and something like 13 written exams).

Oh, and let's not forget that said pilot receives NO retirement plan of any sort, is paid far less than what comprable companies pay in the US, works as a contractor under almost non-existent work rules, and has to sign a $30,000 dollar training bond over 3 or 4 years that forces you to stay as an OSM contractor.

It's a publicity stunt on Norwegian's part and nothing more.


That sounds to be like a supply and demand problem, If someone wants to work under those conditions, let them and let the market sort that out.

But lets not kid ourselves that the airlines have been doing any favors for the traveling public, the only notable growth has been competitive responses in top markets while cutting services (basic economy) and dropping service to smaller markets.



What do you expect the US3 to do? Basic economy is a direct response to the growth of Spirit and Frontier. It gives people a choice in how much they want to pay/the amenities they receive. The hard fact is that many people travel solely based on price, and the explosive growth of Spirit backs that fact. The majors are not going to simply sit back and allow Spirit to grow in their markets without a competitive response. Basic economy is a direct response to the market so calling it a "cut" is misleading.

Let's take a look at UA as an example. Since their bankruptcy and merger UA has reintroduced snacks, refreshed the cabins on their entire fleet (excluding the soon to be gone 747s), installed wifi and some sort of entertainment (streaming or directv), is rolling out a new and very competitive international business product, improved food offerings, refreshed the entire 767 fleet, taken hundreds of new aircraft orders, invested billions in airport facilities, and has finally gotten a handle on operational integrity to the point of posting numbers that are the best in company history.

Markets that were previously flown by 50 seat RJs are now flown with E175s and mainline equipment, and that trend is to continue.

The smaller markets that have been dropped/seen service cut have been linked to two events. The first being the absolute battering of the fracking industry and the second is the pilot shortage at the regional level. The "lost decade" as it's called within pilot circles choked off the supply of new pilots. Massive furloughs, age 65, and poverty level wages at the RJ level all helped fuel the small city cuts you see as airlines simply can't staff all the flying.

Having economically healthy airlines is a good thing, but is often bemoaned on anet for reasons I fail to understand.
It is always darkest before the sun comes up.
 
ual777
Posts: 1642
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2003 6:18 am

Re: Trump to Meet with Airline CEOs Thursday

Tue Feb 07, 2017 11:56 pm

lesfalls wrote:
ual777 wrote:
RL757PVD wrote:
So how is the spin going to be when Norwegian cancels Billions in Boeing orders and Boeing announces mass layoffs, all for routes that the US airlines would never touch, at the same time as they are not growing and not hiring. That sounds like a great win for the american people and economy.


This is false. The US3 are hiring thousands of pilots every year and have been since around late 2012. That doesn't even include WN, NK, VA, B6, and AS who are hiring full bore as well. They have also been hiring hundreds (if not thousands) of flight attendants, mechanics, rampers, and other staff.

Norwegian likes to trumpet that they hire US workers, but so far it's mostly been flight attendants working on contracts under awful terms. It's been so bad there is already a unionization drive.

They further claim they want to hire pilots for an FLL base, but anyone hired with an FAA license has two years to convert it to an EASA license (a process that costs thousands of dollars and something like 13 written exams).

Oh, and let's not forget that said pilot receives NO retirement plan of any sort, is paid far less than what comprable companies pay in the US, works as a contractor under almost non-existent work rules, and has to sign a $30,000 dollar training bond over 3 or 4 years that forces you to stay as an OSM contractor.

It's a publicity stunt on Norwegian's part and nothing more.

I have flown DY 8x longhaul with them and I have always talked to the crew and the majority said that they like the company. There was a stewardess I even spoke to who worked for UA for 10 years and said she prefered DY a lot more and she could have stayed at UA but decided to change.



This I find odd. Unless the flight attendant was perpetually on reserve or commuting I wonder if he/she worked for an express carrier operating for United. Otherwise it's a substantial cut pay and benefits wise.

If Norwegian was such a great place to work for employees they wouldn't be fighting court cases claiming they aren't the direct employers of their cabin crew, or have such bad reviews.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/tedreed/201 ... 2c707f5a94

https://www.glassdoor.com/Reviews/OSM-A ... 857857.htm
It is always darkest before the sun comes up.
 
Mortyman
Posts: 5879
Joined: Sat Aug 12, 2006 8:26 pm

Re: Trump to Meet with Airline CEOs Thursday

Wed Feb 08, 2017 12:11 am

Video of Sean Spicer commenting on Norwegian:

http://www.nrk.no/urix/trumps-pressetal ... 1.13365998
 
User avatar
lesfalls
Posts: 3379
Joined: Fri Dec 06, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: Trump to Meet with Airline CEOs Thursday

Wed Feb 08, 2017 12:17 am

ual777 wrote:
lesfalls wrote:
ual777 wrote:

This is false. The US3 are hiring thousands of pilots every year and have been since around late 2012. That doesn't even include WN, NK, VA, B6, and AS who are hiring full bore as well. They have also been hiring hundreds (if not thousands) of flight attendants, mechanics, rampers, and other staff.

Norwegian likes to trumpet that they hire US workers, but so far it's mostly been flight attendants working on contracts under awful terms. It's been so bad there is already a unionization drive.

They further claim they want to hire pilots for an FLL base, but anyone hired with an FAA license has two years to convert it to an EASA license (a process that costs thousands of dollars and something like 13 written exams).

Oh, and let's not forget that said pilot receives NO retirement plan of any sort, is paid far less than what comprable companies pay in the US, works as a contractor under almost non-existent work rules, and has to sign a $30,000 dollar training bond over 3 or 4 years that forces you to stay as an OSM contractor.

It's a publicity stunt on Norwegian's part and nothing more.

I have flown DY 8x longhaul with them and I have always talked to the crew and the majority said that they like the company. There was a stewardess I even spoke to who worked for UA for 10 years and said she prefered DY a lot more and she could have stayed at UA but decided to change.



This I find odd. Unless the flight attendant was perpetually on reserve or commuting I wonder if he/she worked for an express carrier operating for United. Otherwise it's a substantial cut pay and benefits wise.

If Norwegian was such a great place to work for employees they wouldn't be fighting court cases claiming they aren't the direct employers of their cabin crew, or have such bad reviews.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/tedreed/201 ... 2c707f5a94

https://www.glassdoor.com/Reviews/OSM-A ... 857857.htm

She didn't go into the details about it. She just said that it was bad. I have read those reviews but it shocks me as I have had very long discussions with the crew on each flight about it. I know another steward who moved from a big Asian airline to DY and he said that DY was not as good as the company that he was originally in but he did say that DY was still quite a good company though. It still shocks me though about the links that your showing me.
Lufthansa: Einfach ein bisschen besser.
 
ual777
Posts: 1642
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2003 6:18 am

Re: Trump to Meet with Airline CEOs Thursday

Wed Feb 08, 2017 12:38 am

lesfalls wrote:
ual777 wrote:
lesfalls wrote:
I have flown DY 8x longhaul with them and I have always talked to the crew and the majority said that they like the company. There was a stewardess I even spoke to who worked for UA for 10 years and said she prefered DY a lot more and she could have stayed at UA but decided to change.



This I find odd. Unless the flight attendant was perpetually on reserve or commuting I wonder if he/she worked for an express carrier operating for United. Otherwise it's a substantial cut pay and benefits wise.

If Norwegian was such a great place to work for employees they wouldn't be fighting court cases claiming they aren't the direct employers of their cabin crew, or have such bad reviews.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/tedreed/201 ... 2c707f5a94

https://www.glassdoor.com/Reviews/OSM-A ... 857857.htm

She didn't go into the details about it. She just said that it was bad. I have read those reviews but it shocks me as I have had very long discussions with the crew on each flight about it. I know another steward who moved from a big Asian airline to DY and he said that DY was not as good as the company that he was originally in but he did say that DY was still quite a good company though. It still shocks me though about the links that your showing me.


The biggest issue I have with carriers like Norwegian (aside from their attempts to play the "direct employment" and flag of convenience game) is their training bond. Emirates practices this as well. They can take a young pilot, dangle a fancy jet in front of him/her and tell them how awesome working for that carrier is. They then say "oh, but we have a training bond" and either require $30,000 dollars upfront for "training costs" that is released after 3 years or go after the pilot in court if they decide to leave. Its doubly difficult in a place like the UAE where unions are outlawed and Emirates can change the "contract" on a whim.

Its very easy for people on anet to say "oh well they signed up for it" but the objective of a recruiting department is to attract candidates and they can and do spin the truth. Common ways are saying they can expect a captain upgrade in a short period of time, promote a lifestyle that doesn't exist, etc. etc.

The practice itself should be outlawed.

It should also be noted that training for pilots and flight attendants is very different. Pilot training takes far longer and is much more expensive. There many airlines worldwide (including the US) that "churn and burn" flight attendants. At some of the regional carriers the attrition rate can be over 50% in the first 12 months. They do it to keep costs down by not having very many senior cabin crew.
Last edited by ual777 on Wed Feb 08, 2017 12:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
It is always darkest before the sun comes up.
 
FlyUSAir
Posts: 387
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 6:26 am

Re: Trump to Meet with Airline CEOs Thursday

Wed Feb 08, 2017 12:41 am

ual777 wrote:
lesfalls wrote:
ual777 wrote:


This I find odd. Unless the flight attendant was perpetually on reserve or commuting I wonder if he/she worked for an express carrier operating for United. Otherwise it's a substantial cut pay and benefits wise.

If Norwegian was such a great place to work for employees they wouldn't be fighting court cases claiming they aren't the direct employers of their cabin crew, or have such bad reviews.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/tedreed/201 ... 2c707f5a94

https://www.glassdoor.com/Reviews/OSM-A ... 857857.htm

She didn't go into the details about it. She just said that it was bad. I have read those reviews but it shocks me as I have had very long discussions with the crew on each flight about it. I know another steward who moved from a big Asian airline to DY and he said that DY was not as good as the company that he was originally in but he did say that DY was still quite a good company though. It still shocks me though about the links that your showing me.


The biggest issue I have with carriers like Norwegian (aside from their attempts to play the "direct employment" and flag of convenience game) is their training bond. Emirates practices this as well. They can take a young pilot, dangle a fancy jet in front of him/her and tell them how awesome working for that carrier is. They then say "oh, but we have a training bond" and either require $30,000 dollars upfront for "training costs" that is released after 3 years or go after the pilot in court if they decide to leave. Its doubly difficult in a place like the UAE where unions are outlawed and Emirates can change the "contract" on a whim.

Its very easy for people on anet to say "oh well they signed up for it" but the objective of a recruiting department is to attract candidates and they can and do spin the truth. Common ways are saying they can expect a captain upgrade in a short period of time, promote a lifestyle that doesn't exist, etc. etc.

The practice itself should be outlawed.


You point out that Norwegian and Emirates have this, yet I know first hand most if not all US regional carriers have the same thing, with a worse pay rate. Some that offer these are even owned by AA or DL. Not a good argument.
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