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New Zealand Aviation - February 2017

Mon Feb 06, 2017 8:44 am

Welcome to the February 2017 edition of the New Zealand Aviation Threads. Link to previous thread viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1351883&start=250

Please note: Moderators have decided to let all country/regional aviation threads like this thread be a month long thread instead of the usual 200-250 post limit as per before, hence the February 2017 title

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NZ6
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Re: New Zealand Aviation - February 2017

Mon Feb 06, 2017 7:11 pm

Reading back over the previous thread. There was some talk of a Airport north of Auckland just south of WRE.

Here are my two cents worth to kick that off again as I found the thought/concept interesting.

* Whenuapai needs to be closed in a near future. I believe the Air Force committed to the base for a period of time a while ago. I can't recall if this is true or how long this is for but if this is true once that time is up expect to see the Air Force leave and sell this land.
* Expect to see the Air Foce move to Ohakea in full. Don't expect them to build a new facility anytime soon. Purely a cost consideration. Our Air Force size does not warrant multiple locations and given we're largely a search and rescue, aid, transport service there isn't the need for more locations from a tactical point of view.
* Without defense force funding who would pay for a 3000ft runway, oil, landworks etc. You'd be looking at over a $1B I would imagine, that would need to be privately funded of funded by local government. Good luck getting the super city to chip in there given they've already got an airport in their eyes.
* Would an airport so far north appeal to the freight market?
* Tourism would only appeal to this airport in the summer months.

A domestic airport around Wellsford would be worth a discussion once the motorway is built but would need high speed links to both WRE in the north and Warkworth, Orewa, Albany and the CBD to the south. Again who would fund this though.

I have real concerns for AKLI's medium to long term future. They're barely supplying facilities now. They seem to be more focused on the retail area vs passenger space/comfort and gates. The second runway needed to be built 10 years ago to allow the dated and cramped domestic terminal to move. I read something last year that unless JQ or airworks move there is less than 5% capacity growth left in the current domestic terminal for NZ.

I would hate to see the airport in 10 years if the second runway is not built and there is no heavy rail link to downtown AKL or at least onto the rail network.

If you wanted to see a consolidated airport, I see more benefit from a HLZ, TRG, ROT joint venture to great a major hub with rail to all major centers.
 
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Re: New Zealand Aviation - February 2017

Mon Feb 06, 2017 8:58 pm

[This is not directed at NZ6, but at the debate in general]. All this talk of a new airport somewhere (Whangarei, Wellsford, Whenuapai) is just fanciful - it seriously isn't going to happen! The only reason that we're even discussing it is because of a perceived dissatisfaction with AKL. Hate to break it to you guys, but the VAST majority of users of AKL are not unhappy with the status quo, and there's only been one newspaper article in recent times that has even questioned AIAL's approach, in my recollection. Many sophisticated/experienced travellers fully accept that there will be times that they have to be bussed to an aircraft, because there are so many airports world-wide where that is also the case. There is not a spare billion or two in public money lying around (plus extra billions for the "high speed links" to the facility) and I cannot see any private company thinking that they could invest that many $$$ and compete with AIAL. It's fun to speculate, but in the real world we're stuck with AIAL.

That said, I do agree with many of the criticisms of AIAL, especially their focus on commercial revenue-generating initiatives rather than the longer-term development of the facility. The sole parties calling the shots here are the shareholders (including Auckland Council) and unless you can persuade the shareholders that their facility, which consistently features on the lists of "favourite" airports in the region, is in need of an emergency upgrade, then it just ain't going to happen. But shareholders typically vote on the basis of what will give the best return, and it's clear that the upgrade/expansion of the facilities, and the new runway, do not (yet) provide the best bang for buck. At a future yet-to-be-determined time I'm sure that they will, but for the moment the airport is attracting record business without that investment. If the public started flying long-haul from WLG or CHC in preference to using AKL, or if airlines chose WLG or CHC over AKL for new route development, then that might change, but I don't see that happening on any significant scale.

There are those who believe that all would have been OK if only the airport had remained completely in public hands, and had never been privatised. That, too, is completely fanciful: look at the difficulty that Auckland has had in getting arguably even more urgent public transport infrastructure off the ground (viz City Rail Link) and the strong possibility that three other essential rapid transit network initiatives (Airport Rail Link, Northwestern Busway and Pakuranga Busway) will take years more to come to fruition. Public money is arguably harder to liberate than private money - especially where central government has a finger in the pie. The best strategy IMHO is to mobilise dissatisfaction with the status quo and put pressure on AIAL. How many of the critics of AIAL from A-Net are shareholders and attend the annual meeting to make these points? Otherwise, the bleating is just hot air without substance.
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Re: New Zealand Aviation - February 2017

Mon Feb 06, 2017 9:57 pm

DavidByrne wrote:
All this talk of a new airport somewhere (Whangarei, Wellsford, Whenuapai) is just fanciful - it seriously isn't going to happen! The only reason that we're even discussing it is because of a perceived dissatisfaction with AKL.


Not by me.

I have no reason to be dissatisfied with AKL, except that I loathe the drive to get there. The reason I'm in the debate is mostly because the plan is for Whangarei to get a new airport and the only question is where.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/northern-advo ... d=11377793

"New airport site on council's agenda

The decision comes after the Whangarei Airport Strategic Study found issues with the current site in Onerahi, including problems associated with Civil Aviation rules and runway length."


Onerahi's runway could be extended, at a cost of about $140 million, but it isn't an ideal location and they're looking for somewhere else. Given that, the obvious location - to me - is ZKpilot's idea of Marsden. They're also taking about a (commercial) jet capable airport.

Do I think such an airport would become an immediate alternative to AKL? No, not in the short, or perhaps even medium, term, but I do think it could take some pressure off AKL - and the Harbour Bridge - and would go some way to realising the extraordinary potential that exists at Marsden.

Such an airport at Marsden would put us a long way towards that which we've been discussing. Even a revamp of Onerahi would do that.

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Re: New Zealand Aviation - February 2017

Mon Feb 06, 2017 10:12 pm

I would be gutted to lose Whenuapai. I get great amusement from C-130s buzzing my house. However that does explain why people over here don't like it so much.

AKL should have weathered the storm and finished the second runway during the economic disaster where they still pumped out profits. The new domestic should have been done at the same time, and the Auckland Council needs to come to the party with any kind of rapid transport solution. I suspect Phil Goff may have the clout to do it - I mean Len Brown got the City Rail Link done.
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Re: New Zealand Aviation - February 2017

Mon Feb 06, 2017 10:16 pm

A couple of points re DavidByrne's post.

Firstly I completely agree this won't happen. WRE's new airport if this happens will be a local airport which will hopefully be located somewhere where a runway can either be built for A320/B737 Ops or at least be extended to future proof the investment.

* New airport is not a reaction to AKLI. The conversation is based on WRE talking of a new airport and the fact Auckland is going nort rapidly. Essentially Warkworth is now a suburb of Auckland and if you disagree on that then you will agree once the motorway is built. It wasn't until the motorway extension to Silverdale was built until we considered that area a apart of Auckland also. We've got a very along city growing north and south but not so much east/west. We have our primary airport located at the southern end of it. So based on this could/should a larger airport be built midway.

* As mentioned above, this will not happen. But fast forward 50 years. Auckland is a city of 3 million and urban areas spread to Warkworth and inward to Paraki, What does AKL need to do to remain viable for transport options.

* Just because other airports around the world bus passengers it should mean it's acceptable for Auckland.

* As I mentioned on my post earlier. It would cost over $1B to so what was muted and I would much rather have a dedicated rail line from the CBD, a rail line to the north shore and a second runway built. That would solve the most of the issues raised here. I wonder what will cost more?
 
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Re: New Zealand Aviation - February 2017

Tue Feb 07, 2017 3:34 am

Are there any updates on Air New Zealand's B77W refurbishment? Where and when will B77W with new PE seats start flying?
 
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Re: New Zealand Aviation - February 2017

Tue Feb 07, 2017 4:34 am

Speaking of alternatives to Air New Zealand. I had a fantastic flight to Sydney recently with Qantas on a refurbished A330-300. Fantastic experience all around (other than the bus gate...its not much fun to have your face 20cm from someone's armpit due to the bus being way overcrowded on a hot day) and the service from the crew was excellent. Much nicer than Air New Zealand's 'upgraded' 772s. I might do a trip report when I get the time.

Was also particularly lucky on the return leg with no holdups at all through MPI, only a small queue at Border Control due to a whole lot of Smartgate machines breaking down. Wouldn't have been more than 15-20 minutes between leaving the aircraft and being airside. For sure that's a record for the last five years.


Regarding a Northern Airport, it would certainly be nice if there was a decent airport up North, not just for commercial pax, but I'm sure it could attract plenty of business jets who's pax are visiting the Bay Of Islands over summer. All the runways up North are pathetically small. I wonder if that Russian Billionaire who owns the massive development at Helena Bay would be willing to chip in a few million for airport upgrades so that he could land his A319ACJ a bit closer by.

Regarding Devonport Navy Base, I believe that it is built on Maori land which would be returned to the local tribe in the event of the Navy moving elsewhere.



coolian2 wrote:
I would be gutted to lose Whenuapai. I get great amusement from C-130s buzzing my house. However that does explain why people over here don't like it so much.

As someone who lives under the approach path, I'd be very disappointed if NZWP closed and the 757s coming overhead stopped.
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Re: New Zealand Aviation - February 2017

Tue Feb 07, 2017 4:37 am

Has ZK-NCJ departed yet with its new registration yet (N930WE)?
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Re: New Zealand Aviation - February 2017

Tue Feb 07, 2017 7:06 am

mariner wrote:

Onerahi's runway could be extended, at a cost of about $140 million, but it isn't an ideal location and they're looking for somewhere else. Given that, the obvious location - to me - is ZKpilot's idea of Marsden. They're also taking about a (commercial) jet capable airport.

Do I think such an airport would become an immediate alternative to AKL? No, not in the short, or perhaps even medium, term, but I do think it could take some pressure off AKL - and the Harbour Bridge - and would go some way to realising the extraordinary potential that exists at Marsden.

Such an airport at Marsden would put us a long way towards that which we've been discussing. Even a revamp of Onerahi would do that.

mariner


A lot of pressure will come off the Harbour Bridge once Waterview comes on line and the Western Ring Route is completed.
 
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Re: New Zealand Aviation - February 2017

Tue Feb 07, 2017 7:09 am

coolian2 wrote:
I would be gutted to lose Whenuapai. I get great amusement from C-130s buzzing my house. However that does explain why people over here don't like it so much.

AKL should have weathered the storm and finished the second runway during the economic disaster where they still pumped out profits. The new domestic should have been done at the same time, and the Auckland Council needs to come to the party with any kind of rapid transport solution. I suspect Phil Goff may have the clout to do it - I mean Len Brown got the City Rail Link done.


As I said in the previous thread the Govt is speand nearly 100m on rebuilding Whenuapai, it's not going anywhere for a long time.

As for rapid transport the heavy rail solution currently is significantly closer to the airport than any other kind of rail, light rail doesn't exist in Auckland.
 
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Re: New Zealand Aviation - February 2017

Tue Feb 07, 2017 8:22 am

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news ... d=11796179

Looks like NZ/QR having an bit of an media war over NZ cutting QR SPA access.
 
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Re: New Zealand Aviation - February 2017

Tue Feb 07, 2017 8:44 am

zkncj wrote:
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11796179

Looks like NZ/QR having an bit of an media war over NZ cutting QR SPA access.


I am actually glad in a way, next minute, NZ will end up a puppet arm of QR, much like QF has with EK.
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Re: New Zealand Aviation - February 2017

Tue Feb 07, 2017 9:51 am

zkncj wrote:
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11796179

Looks like NZ/QR having an bit of an media war over NZ cutting QR SPA access.

You'd think they would just do it with JQ instead as they are owned by QF, which is in the same alliance as QR.
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Re: New Zealand Aviation - February 2017

Tue Feb 07, 2017 10:36 am

LamboAston wrote:
zkncj wrote:
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11796179

Looks like NZ/QR having an bit of an media war over NZ cutting QR SPA access.

You'd think they would just do it with JQ instead as they are owned by QF, which is in the same alliance as QR.


Errr... what happened to the QF-EK alliance, and by extension, JQ? Joyce's handlers in Dubai would never let this happen...
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Re: New Zealand Aviation - February 2017

Tue Feb 07, 2017 11:14 am

77west wrote:
zkncj wrote:
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11796179

Looks like NZ/QR having an bit of an media war over NZ cutting QR SPA access.


I am actually glad in a way, next minute, NZ will end up a puppet arm of QR, much like QF has with EK.

Do you have the slightest shred of evidence to back up this assertion?

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Re: New Zealand Aviation - February 2017

Tue Feb 07, 2017 11:39 am

If only AIAL gave Qatar a bus gate...then instead Akbar would be picking a fight with AIAL....and over an issue that actually mattered. Akbar is just the kind of person needed to put pressure on the airport to upgrade/expand their facilities.
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Gasman
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Re: New Zealand Aviation - February 2017

Tue Feb 07, 2017 6:08 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
As I said in the previous thread the Govt is speand nearly 100m on rebuilding Whenuapai, it's not going anywhere for a long time.


Indeed. Mention in the previous thread about Whenuapai being basically on death-row is nothing more than baseless wishful thinking, and has no place here. It's a fully functional major airport *right now*, and if there was the political and commercial will to start domestic and trans-Tasman ops they could start this year. Don't forget that up until 1965 it was the international gateway airport to New Zealand.

Whereas spread over a huge geographical area, Northland's population amounts to 150,000 which, coincidentally is also its contribution to the nation's GDP. A new airport of any significance supplying that region is fairy tale stuff. A judicious upgrade to WRE isn't impossible; but it'll still be a tough cost-benefit argument to make especially when you consider the hoops WLG is having to jump through over the runway extension there.
 
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Re: New Zealand Aviation - February 2017

Tue Feb 07, 2017 6:51 pm

Gasman wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
Mention in the previous thread about Whenuapai being basically on death-row is nothing more than baseless wishful thinking, and has no place here. It's a fully functional major airport *right now


You say it's a fully functional major airport. It's a military base for 2 squadrons. There are no civilian facilities here. Border protection, MPI, terminal facilities, parking, cargo, air-bridges etc.

There is no controlled tower for civilian Ops either.

In addition to this, we've had this debate several times over the last decade and the proposal has been rejected, that was prior to the residential development in the area. If it's declined prior to this there's no hope now. I'm predicting pressure will come on the air foce to move within the next 10 years and/or as the P3 and C130's are replaced they will be moved to Ohakea.

So what comments have no place here?

Gasman wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
Whereas spread over a huge geographical area, Northland's population amounts to 150,000 which, coincidentally is also its contribution to the nation's GDP. A new airport of any significance supplying that region is fairy tale stuff. A judicious upgrade to WRE isn't impossible; but it'll still be a tough cost-benefit argument to make especially when you consider the hoops WLG is having to jump through over the runway extension there.


I think we agreed on this. It would merely a concept and discussion around what it would look like.

In my opinion however, Auckland has a real issue where travel to and from the airport is already in excess of an hour. Air travel is expected to double in the next 20 years and Auckland is growing rapidly. Will we see 2+ hour commutes? (no rail till 2040) Consider the duration of the majority of departures from AKL. Imagine a 2 hour commute for a 45 minute flight to NPE.

Will there be calls for a second airport at some point (even domestic) The only other airfield's of note in AKL is Ardmore which is pointless given where it is or dairy flat which isn't worth mentioning. I believe there is one at Paraki to but very small.

So what do you do?
 
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Re: New Zealand Aviation - February 2017

Tue Feb 07, 2017 7:21 pm

zkncj wrote:
Looks like NZ/QR having an bit of an media war over NZ cutting QR SPA access.


It's just another dummy spit by Akbar al Baker, the CEO of Qatar, who is notorious for throwing his toys out of his pram. I n this case, he appears to be covering his butt - if the Qatar flight doesn't work, for whatever reason, he can lay part of the blame on Air NZ - LOL.

The greater slight to al-Baker may be that CEO Luxon declined an invasion to the Qatar gala, but the idea of involving the government in this is just silly, because it isn't the end of the word for Qatar. As he says in the article

"Al Baker said Qatar would try and mitigate the impact of the breakdown in the deal by forming a stronger relationship with Jetstar."

Which was always the most sensible thing and according to Air NZ, it wasn't much of a deal and it ended last year anyway.

"But Air New Zealand has fired back saying it had a very limited agreement with Qatar for three years since 2013 which covered flights between Auckland and Wellington and Auckland and Christchurch only. "The agreement was withdrawn last year," a spokeswoman said."

Kiwirob wrote:
A lot of pressure will come off the Harbour Bridge once Waterview comes on line and the Western Ring Route is completed.


Maybe. But given the relentless growth of Auckland, in about five years the traffic will likely be back up to, or beyond, present levels.

Gasman wrote:
It's a fully functional major airport *right now*, and if there was the political and commercial will to start domestic and trans-Tasman ops they could start this year. Don't forget that up until 1965 it was the international gateway airport to New Zealand..


Be careful what you wish for - LOL. It's one thing to disregard the fact that Whenuapai is getting hemmed in by residential development, but even if it is possible I'd assume that AIAL would go nuclear if they didn't get to run it. It's easy enough to make the case that a second Auckland airport would harm it's commercial prospects - its profits - at AKL.

SYD airport has it written into its contract with Canberra that it has first refusal on the second Sydney airport at Badgery's Creek, and while I suspect - but don't know - that AIAL has no such a right of first refusal on a second Auckland airport, I imagine they'd create an almighty stink if it were to happen and they didn't get first dibs.

And since AIAL appears to be the black beast in all of this, it would be amusing if they ended up running both. Image

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Re: New Zealand Aviation - February 2017

Tue Feb 07, 2017 8:01 pm

mariner wrote:
And since AIAL appears to be the black beast in all of this, it would be amusing if they ended up running both. Image

mariner


A strange use of the word "amusing" indeed! :)

In my opinion, Auckland's area geography, the harbour with its single bridge and the exponential growth on the North Shore with commute times to AKL that are not getting any shorter, are compelling arguments for commencing civil ops out of NZWP, which could commence with a fairly trivial initial capital investment. But if I'm wrong - ie the NZWP option isn't viable - that in itself does not create an argument for a completely or virtually new facility being built somewhere else. It'll just never happen. Going from nothing, or even WRE to something the standard NZWP is right now would cost many hundreds of millions. There'll be no new airports in New Zealand, and probably no huge upgrades to existing ones either.
 
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Re: New Zealand Aviation - February 2017

Tue Feb 07, 2017 10:27 pm

zkojq wrote:
Speaking of alternatives to Air New Zealand. I had a fantastic flight to Sydney recently with Qantas on a refurbished A330-300. Fantastic experience all around (other than the bus gate...its not much fun to have your face 20cm from someone's armpit due to the bus being way overcrowded on a hot day) and the service from the crew was excellent. Much nicer than Air New Zealand's 'upgraded' 772s. I might do a trip report when I get the time.

I think you have hit on my biggest complaint with bus gates. If they can manage to get truck mounted stairs with a rain cover (they exist) and use a few more buses instead of waiting to see how many they can jam in each one then the bus process would be much easier to take. In fact, given the choice between gate 10 and a bus, the bus involves much less walking.

I have been to airports where there is a queue of buses waiting for the aircraft and the process is very smooth. The worst bus gates I have seen are at LAX and FRA. At LAX the bus gates are so far from TBIT that they need to jam everyone into a small number of buses. Same kind of problem at FRA where a bus gate can easily add 30 minutes to your transit time. AKL doesn't have that problem. The bus ride is just a few minutes long. You spend more time loading and unloading than driving.
 
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Re: New Zealand Aviation - February 2017

Tue Feb 07, 2017 10:48 pm

The biggest argument against NZWP (and you have no idea how much I would love it to become a civil/military split) is.....if I don't want to bring my car, how am I getting there?

Admittedly you could almost say the same about AKL.
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Re: New Zealand Aviation - February 2017

Tue Feb 07, 2017 11:29 pm

coolian2 wrote:
The biggest argument against NZWP (and you have no idea how much I would love it to become a civil/military split) is.....if I don't want to bring my car, how am I getting there?

Admittedly you could almost say the same about AKL.


Actually I'd say that is very weakest argument imaginable. Taxi? Uber? Someone else's car? Bus services?

The impetus would have to come from the airlines. If JQ and NZ started announcing that they'd *love* to start services out of NZWP if only the pesky government would let them; sit back and watch public support north of the harbour bridge go stratospheric.

While nothing would make me happier than living adjacent to a noisy airport, not everyone feels this way and there would certainly be some opposition from residents immediately around the facility as has been seen previously. Whichever side prevailed would be determined by the balance of opposition, political expediency and projected value of the service to the community and airlines.
 
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Re: New Zealand Aviation - February 2017

Tue Feb 07, 2017 11:49 pm

Gasman wrote:
coolian2 wrote:
The biggest argument against NZWP (and you have no idea how much I would love it to become a civil/military split) is.....if I don't want to bring my car, how am I getting there?

Admittedly you could almost say the same about AKL.


Actually I'd say that is very weakest argument imaginable. Taxi? Uber? Someone else's car? Bus services?

The impetus would have to come from the airlines. If JQ and NZ started announcing that they'd *love* to start services out of NZWP if only the pesky government would let them; sit back and watch public support north of the harbour bridge go stratospheric.

While nothing would make me happier than living adjacent to a noisy airport, not everyone feels this way and there would certainly be some opposition from residents immediately around the facility as has been seen previously. Whichever side prevailed would be determined by the balance of opposition, political expediency and projected value of the service to the community and airlines.

Taxi? May as well take my own car. Uber? May as well take my own car. Someone else's car? They'd tell me to take my own car. Buses? Given how pitiful AT has been about AKL it might happen 20 years after ops start. We're a city that needs to accept that not everyone is going to drive everywhere. Admittedly from my house in Glenfield a well designed zipline could probably do the job....

I would agree with you that the second an airline says "we'll start serving XYZ from NZWP" 90% of the Shore would shut up and say "what noise?". The second an airline says something it'll be all guns blazing.
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Re: New Zealand Aviation - February 2017

Wed Feb 08, 2017 2:02 am

Gemuser wrote:
77west wrote:
zkncj wrote:
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11796179

Looks like NZ/QR having an bit of an media war over NZ cutting QR SPA access.


I am actually glad in a way, next minute, NZ will end up a puppet arm of QR, much like QF has with EK.

Do you have the slightest shred of evidence to back up this assertion?

Gemuser
Sorry, was being mildly sarcastic... forgot to add a smily
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NZ321
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Re: New Zealand Aviation - February 2017

Wed Feb 08, 2017 5:04 am

Gasman wrote:
coolian2 wrote:
The biggest argument against NZWP (and you have no idea how much I would love it to become a civil/military split) is.....if I don't want to bring my car, how am I getting there?

Admittedly you could almost say the same about AKL.


Actually I'd say that is very weakest argument imaginable. Taxi? Uber? Someone else's car? Bus services?

We mustn't forget either the hard rail to Waitakere / Kumeu (not so far away) and the possibility of a Light Rail option including both the airport and North Harbour...
Plane mad!
 
zkncj
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Re: New Zealand Aviation - February 2017

Wed Feb 08, 2017 5:37 am

zkojq wrote:
If only AIAL gave Qatar a bus gate...then instead Akbar would be picking a fight with AIAL....and over an issue that actually mattered. Akbar is just the kind of person needed to put pressure on the airport to upgrade/expand their facilities.


If only... they should in theory get an Bus gate on arrival since they come in durring the AM peak and are the newest arrival.

So does this mean another Tasman flight now gets the bus treatment?
 
ZK-NBT
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Re: New Zealand Aviation - February 2017

Wed Feb 08, 2017 6:03 am

zkncj wrote:
zkojq wrote:
If only AIAL gave Qatar a bus gate...then instead Akbar would be picking a fight with AIAL....and over an issue that actually mattered. Akbar is just the kind of person needed to put pressure on the airport to upgrade/expand their facilities.


If only... they should in theory get an Bus gate on arrival since they come in durring the AM peak and are the newest arrival.

So does this mean another Tasman flight now gets the bus treatment?


No. QR arrives at 0500 which is before anything else, so long as it's ontime it will be pushed to the layover by 0600 to allow another arrival on the gate or an aircraft departing that's overnighted onto the gate.
 
Kiwirob
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Re: New Zealand Aviation - February 2017

Wed Feb 08, 2017 11:41 am

Gasman wrote:
mariner wrote:
And since AIAL appears to be the black beast in all of this, it would be amusing if they ended up running both. Image

mariner


A strange use of the word "amusing" indeed! :)

In my opinion, Auckland's area geography, the harbour with its single bridge and the exponential growth on the North Shore with commute times to AKL that are not getting any shorter, are compelling arguments for commencing civil ops out of NZWP, which could commence with a fairly trivial initial capital investment. But if I'm wrong - ie the NZWP option isn't viable - that in itself does not create an argument for a completely or virtually new facility being built somewhere else. It'll just never happen. Going from nothing, or even WRE to something the standard NZWP is right now would cost many hundreds of millions. There'll be no new airports in New Zealand, and probably no huge upgrades to existing ones either.


The Waitemata Harbour has two crossing not one, the Upper Harbour Brigde is part of the Western Ring Route which will be complete once Waterview is finished. A significant part of the North Shores growth will have better connection time to the other side and AKL via this route than going over the Harbour Bridge.

I do agree with the no upgrades to AKL, AIAL isn't interested in spending shareholders dividends, that's why if I was the NZ govt I'd grow a pair and nationalise the airport, in fact I'd nationalise all NZ's airports and set up a company like AVINOR in Norway. AVINOR don't stint on airport upgrades, there mission is to build the best airports possible, OSL is in my opinion the best Airport in Europe, which is a fine testament to AVINOR.
 
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SelandiaBaru
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Re: New Zealand Aviation - February 2017

Wed Feb 08, 2017 7:30 pm

DavidByrne wrote:
There are those who believe that all would have been OK if only the airport had remained completely in public hands, and had never been privatised. That, too, is completely fanciful: look at the difficulty that Auckland has had in getting arguably even more urgent public transport infrastructure off the ground (viz City Rail Link) and the strong possibility that three other essential rapid transit network initiatives (Airport Rail Link, Northwestern Busway and Pakuranga Busway) will take years more to come to fruition. Public money is arguably harder to liberate than private money - especially where central government has a finger in the pie. The best strategy IMHO is to mobilise dissatisfaction with the status quo and put pressure on AIAL. How many of the critics of AIAL from A-Net are shareholders and attend the annual meeting to make these points? Otherwise, the bleating is just hot air without substance.


Auckland Council had, has and will continue to have problems due to the bickering between the Government and Council. Having moved back to New Zealand fairly recently Auckland public transport is an absolute joke. There is a failure of governance at central and local levels that prevents appropriate infrastructure development in NZ and this needs to be addressed.

I'm a massive critic of AIAL - a shareholder, operator and frequent passenger and very keen to go to the next annual meeting. I hope that Auckland Council as a significant investor and stakeholder will be vocally critical at that meeting. Dreams are free.
 
NZ6
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Re: New Zealand Aviation - February 2017

Wed Feb 08, 2017 7:31 pm

Looking at google maps, the AT rail hub is on the main line immediately south of SH20.

Why can't AIAL, AT and Auckland City sort their stuff out and extend the rail line along SH20 and up adjacent to Puhinui Road. If not tunneling the last 2km to meet the terminal yet how about at least into the airport boundary and extend the terminal shuttle service to go Dom-Intl-Rail-Dom....

This would allow a heavy rail connection into the CBD without having to worry about the Onehunga connection/bridge etc.
 
Gasman
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Re: New Zealand Aviation - February 2017

Wed Feb 08, 2017 8:05 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
if I was the NZ govt I'd grow a pair and nationalise the airport, in fact I'd nationalise all NZ's airports and set up a company like AVINOR in Norway.


I would too. Privatisation of the AKL infrastructure has failed. New Zealand is just too small for the normal self-regulatory market forces to apply, yet big enough to be a captive market for AIAL. The free market only regulates itself if it is big enough and competitive, not monopolistic. Which doesn't apply to AIAL.

But it might if NZWP commenced civil ops under the auspices of a different company.............
 
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mariner
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Re: New Zealand Aviation - February 2017

Wed Feb 08, 2017 8:06 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
The Waitemata Harbour has two crossing not one, the Upper Harbour Brigde is part of the Western Ring Route which will be complete once Waterview is finished. A significant part of the North Shores growth will have better connection time to the other side and AKL via this route than going over the Harbour Bridge.


I'm not sure why you're telling me this, I'm surprised you think I don't know about about the Upper Harbour Bridge. I've explored all my few options.

I thought I'd made it pretty clear that I'm not talking about Auckland, I'm not Auckland-centric, but development of the regions, in this case Northland. Posters have used the Northland population (150,000) as an argument against development of a decent airport, but that's a fairly poor metric for gauging air service - Queenstown has a permanent population of about 30,000 - LOL. Northland has a high tourist draw - not as high as Queenstown, perhaps, but up there - and with a considerable component of wealth. The summer influx of European and especially UK millionaires to their homes in Kerikeri is but one element of this wealth as is the new luxury resort at Helena Bay which isn't designed for the one Coke-two straws crowd.

We manage okay with the infrastructure that we have, but there is no question that the infrastructure could be better. And since Whangarei is - conceptually at least - to have a new airport, why not make that airport commercial jet capable? Excluding Whenuapai it would be the only one north of the harbour bridge - either of 'em - LOL.

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
Gasman
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Re: New Zealand Aviation - February 2017

Wed Feb 08, 2017 8:28 pm

I suspect mariner you have something of a pro-Northland bias in these discussions, which is understandable.

A few weeks ago, at the age of 50, I had my second trip to Northland in my life, having lived in New Zealand for all but 7 years of it and Auckland for the last 22. That in itself might say something.

I was amazed. Northland has an astonishing amount on offer. But yes, the infrastructure was below par. The road, north of Whangarei, is pretty substandard all the way up to Cape Rienga. I couldn't find a decent place to stay in Keri Keri. The restaurant scene there was pretty non-existent to be honest. But the scenery, and overall vibe of the entire region was superb.

The place needs an *entire* infrastructure, and not just a tourist one. But what happens first? Do you wait for the population to build, to justify the funding? Or build the infrastructure anticipating that if you do, the tourists and permanent residents will follow?
 
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SelandiaBaru
Posts: 95
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Re: New Zealand Aviation - February 2017

Wed Feb 08, 2017 8:50 pm

Gasman wrote:
I was amazed. Northland has an astonishing amount on offer. But yes, the infrastructure was below par. The road, north of Whangarei, is pretty substandard all the way up to Cape Rienga. I couldn't find a decent place to stay in Keri Keri. The restaurant scene there was pretty non-existent to be honest. But the scenery, and overall vibe of the entire region was superb.


I'm all for it getting better, but there are some great accommodation options in Kerikeri, and really good restaurants and cafe's too!
 
Kiwirob
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Re: New Zealand Aviation - February 2017

Wed Feb 08, 2017 9:50 pm

mariner wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
The Waitemata Harbour has two crossing not one, the Upper Harbour Brigde is part of the Western Ring Route which will be complete once Waterview is finished. A significant part of the North Shores growth will have better connection time to the other side and AKL via this route than going over the Harbour Bridge.


I'm not sure why you're telling me this, I'm surprised you think I don't know about about the Upper Harbour Bridge. I've explored all my few options.

I thought I'd made it pretty clear that I'm not talking about Auckland, I'm not Auckland-centric, but development of the regions, in this case Northland. Posters have used the Northland population (150,000) as an argument against development of a decent airport, but that's a fairly poor metric for gauging air service - Queenstown has a permanent population of about 30,000 - LOL. Northland has a high tourist draw - not as high as Queenstown, perhaps, but up there - and with a considerable component of wealth. The summer influx of European and especially UK millionaires to their homes in Kerikeri is but one element of this wealth as is the new luxury resort at Helena Bay which isn't designed for the one Coke-two straws crowd.

We manage okay with the infrastructure that we have, but there is no question that the infrastructure could be better. And since Whangarei is - conceptually at least - to have a new airport, why not make that airport commercial jet capable? Excluding Whenuapai it would be the only one north of the harbour bridge - either of 'em - LOL.

mariner


I'm not I'm telling gasman, since he's only been North twice he must have missed the second crossing.
 
Gasman
Posts: 2053
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Re: New Zealand Aviation - February 2017

Wed Feb 08, 2017 10:12 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
I'm not I'm telling gasman, since he's only been North twice he must have missed the second crossing.

I didn't miss it either. And lets be honest - it's not *really* a second crossing. In terms of traveling to AKL from the North Shore (or Northland) it's still pretty much irrelevant. It'll become less so once the Waterview interchange opens up, sure; but even then only for the western-most North shore residents. Your average punter traveling to AKL from Takapuna, Milford, Orewa etc. and all of Northland won't ever notice it.
 
coolian2
Posts: 2483
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Re: New Zealand Aviation - February 2017

Wed Feb 08, 2017 10:32 pm

Gasman wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
I'm not I'm telling gasman, since he's only been North twice he must have missed the second crossing.

I didn't miss it either. And lets be honest - it's not *really* a second crossing. In terms of traveling to AKL from the North Shore (or Northland) it's still pretty much irrelevant. It'll become less so once the Waterview interchange opens up, sure; but even then only for the western-most North shore residents. Your average punter traveling to AKL from Takapuna, Milford, Orewa etc. and all of Northland won't ever notice it.

I've lived on the Shore for about five months and I couldn't find it if I tried. I guess the fact that I could fall over and be on Onewa Road makes it a bit irrelevant. I admit some personal bias as, I've said before, I can see NZWP from my back deck.

I would agree Whangerei needs a lot. Let's face facts: at some point the majority of Port of Auckland will be evicted. Northland is going to wear that capacity and will need a bit of a cargo/transport hub. It's annoying there's no strong government advocate for the north (It is amusing the furthest north I've been is Omaha) because I think the emphasis for improving practically everything will be when Auckland closes.
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mariner
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Re: New Zealand Aviation - February 2017

Wed Feb 08, 2017 11:58 pm

Gasman wrote:
I suspect mariner you have something of a pro-Northland bias in these discussions, which is understandable.


Sure, I am. I don't think I've ever made a secret of it. Image

I'm a bit schizophrenic about it because I like what we already have, but it puzzles me that the potential - at Marsden Point/North Port, for example - is fairly static for want of clear direction by the government. It's why I think it's a sensible place for the new WRE airport - masses of relatively flat land without encroaching too much on any population and very close to existing infrastructure.

So:

coolian2 wrote:
It's annoying there's no strong government advocate for the north


Image

The advocate was supposed to be Winston Peters, of course, that's why people voted for him.

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
coolian2
Posts: 2483
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Re: New Zealand Aviation - February 2017

Thu Feb 09, 2017 12:04 am

mariner wrote:
coolian2 wrote:
It's annoying there's no strong government advocate for the north


Image

The advocate was supposed to be Winston Peters, of course, that's why people voted for him.

mariner

That probably should have been less of a surprise, but if it helps get Labour/Greens/NZ First into power in the end I think it will improve the situation anyway.
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mariner
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Re: New Zealand Aviation - February 2017

Thu Feb 09, 2017 12:33 am

Airline ructions in Samoa?

Once again, the Samoan government has stated its desire to grow Polynesian Airlines rather than Virgin Samoa, and has suggested that the deal with Virgin may be in trouble.

http://sobserver.ws/en/05_02_2017/local ... -focus.htm

"Govt. outlines financial centre, air traffic focus. The ruling Human Rights Protection Party administration also wants to grow Polynesian Airlines in a bid to attract more tourists to Samoa.

“We [Polynesian Airlines] have a joint venture with Virgin [Australia Airlines] and there are quite a lot of flights from New Zealand, but still we think it is not enough.

“We are now looking at the possibility of having our own planes again.

“Our joint venture is coming up for review and the feeling is generally that, subject to a review, we should fly our own planes once again [internationally].” (Polynesian Airlines got into financial difficulties and stopped flying internationally after the downturn that followed the terrorist 9/11 attacks of 2001.)

“This would give a real boost to tourism because it’s quite possible that Virgin will still fly its planes in if we terminate our joint venture so that would mean extra flights and more tourists.

“What we want to do is get more flights and more visitors in. As it is now, both Virgin and Air New Zealand are deliberately controlling the flights into Samoa to ensure that fares are raised as high as possible. The fares from here to New Zealand are extremely expensive and they are doing that by limiting the flights.”

Both Virgin Australia and Air New Zealand reject the claim from the Prime Minister, according to The Banker."


As always I wish them well, and I understand the desire for more tourists, but I always thought the relationship with Virgin was a great idea for a small airline.

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
ZKOJH
Posts: 1495
Joined: Mon Sep 13, 2004 9:51 am

Re: New Zealand Aviation - February 2017

Thu Feb 09, 2017 1:58 am

Waiting at SIN at gate A4 for my flight to Mel, and can see accross the active runway and behind a LH MD11 there is an NZ aircraft in the shed, any idea which one, can see the tail sticking out.
Air New Zealand ~ dreams of flying
 
ZKOXA
Posts: 84
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Re: New Zealand Aviation - February 2017

Thu Feb 09, 2017 3:14 am

ZKOJH wrote:
Waiting at SIN at gate A4 for my flight to Mel, and can see accross the active runway and behind a LH MD11 there is an NZ aircraft in the shed, any idea which one, can see the tail sticking out.


It looks like ZK-OKM which positioned there earlier in the week.

ZKOXA
 
coolian2
Posts: 2483
Joined: Sun Oct 22, 2006 3:34 pm

Re: New Zealand Aviation - February 2017

Thu Feb 09, 2017 6:18 am

It is exceptionally hard to drive though Auckland in rush hour when you're trying to watch a pair of C-130s fly in formation over the harbour.
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DavidByrne
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Re: New Zealand Aviation - February 2017

Thu Feb 09, 2017 9:46 pm

NZ6 wrote:
Looking at google maps, the AT rail hub is on the main line immediately south of SH20.

Why can't AIAL, AT and Auckland City sort their stuff out and extend the rail line along SH20 and up adjacent to Puhinui Road. If not tunneling the last 2km to meet the terminal yet how about at least into the airport boundary and extend the terminal shuttle service to go Dom-Intl-Rail-Dom....

This would allow a heavy rail connection into the CBD without having to worry about the Onehunga connection/bridge etc.

Sigh. If only it were so easy. Don't get me started . . . The bridge is the least of the problems. A billion dollars would be a help though.
This is not my beautiful house . . . This is not my beautiful wife
 
NZ6
Posts: 1154
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2010 6:50 pm

Re: New Zealand Aviation - February 2017

Thu Feb 09, 2017 10:30 pm

DavidByrne wrote:
NZ6 wrote:
Looking at google maps, the AT rail hub is on the main line immediately south of SH20.

Why can't AIAL, AT and Auckland City sort their stuff out and extend the rail line along SH20 and up adjacent to Puhinui Road. If not tunneling the last 2km to meet the terminal yet how about at least into the airport boundary and extend the terminal shuttle service to go Dom-Intl-Rail-Dom....

This would allow a heavy rail connection into the CBD without having to worry about the Onehunga connection/bridge etc.

Sigh. If only it were so easy. Don't get me started . . . The bridge is the least of the problems. A billion dollars would be a help though.


With all seriousness though, SH20 has just been built. Why on earth was a rail corridor not included there?

I appreciate one on side of Puhinui Road there is a cemetery and the other is private land but surely purchase of the private land was an option? We're talking a 10km extension at the most.
 
nascarnut
Posts: 305
Joined: Sun Oct 05, 2008 3:43 am

Re: New Zealand Aviation - February 2017

Fri Feb 10, 2017 3:42 am

Could 2017 be a year of consolidation for the AIAL.
So far they have hastily added 3 new layover gates, construction on 2 additional A380 gates or 4 more narrowbody gates depending on mix is well underway and appears will be completed prior to Christmas 2017.
Qatar has started and fitting in quite well with their 0500 or earlier arrival and 1440 departure. Airbridges are not a problem for them.
No new airlines have been announced.
Only airline announcements have been
KE - maintaining 747-800 over the winter albeit with the usual reduced schedule
TG - moving from 777-200 to 777-300 from September.
UA - after a six month hiatus from Apr to Sep will return with daily 777-200 increasing to 10 777-200 per week. Layover time for the three additional allows for them to operate Transtasman if they wanted.
Norfolk Air - weekly 737-300 AKL-NLK replacing NZ.
New Airlines Internationally. Hard to say. Is AKL proving profitable for Air Asia and Hong Kong Airlines to encourage other Asian low cost carriers to consider (Scoot, Cebu etc)
Garuda has mentioned AKL but nothing yet. Air Nuigini remains quiet while the Japanese carriers are also leaving AKL alone. Surprised to see JL give monopoly service from AKL to NRT/HND and KIX all to NZ along with the NH codeshare.
Could the Chinese still be sleeping. They seem to need very little lead in time for a start-up service.
3U from Chongqing
CZ from Shenzhen
MF from Xiamen or Fuzhou
CA from Chegdu
MU from Wuhan or Kunming
Along with HU and GS possibly increasing frequency. All cities for 6-7 million plus populations.

Very little will change domestically, NZ has received the last of the A320's while they will continue to get ATR72-600, these are primarily to replace the older 500, not for expansion at this stage.
Could Jetstar, Air Chathams or Sounds Air look at new services to challenge Air NZ.

Could be a very quiet year but time will tell
 
DavidByrne
Posts: 1431
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2007 4:42 pm

Re: New Zealand Aviation - February 2017

Fri Feb 10, 2017 3:43 am

NZ6 wrote:
DavidByrne wrote:
NZ6 wrote:
Looking at google maps, the AT rail hub is on the main line immediately south of SH20.

Why can't AIAL, AT and Auckland City sort their stuff out and extend the rail line along SH20 and up adjacent to Puhinui Road. If not tunneling the last 2km to meet the terminal yet how about at least into the airport boundary and extend the terminal shuttle service to go Dom-Intl-Rail-Dom....

This would allow a heavy rail connection into the CBD without having to worry about the Onehunga connection/bridge etc.

Sigh. If only it were so easy. Don't get me started . . . The bridge is the least of the problems. A billion dollars would be a help though.


With all seriousness though, SH20 has just been built. Why on earth was a rail corridor not included there?

I appreciate one on side of Puhinui Road there is a cemetery and the other is private land but surely purchase of the private land was an option? We're talking a 10km extension at the most.

There's serious antagonism at central government level to any form of transport that is in public ownership and especially to any with steel wheels. Liberating $$$ to pay for any of these projects is worse than getting blood from a stone. You might just as well ask why the NW Motorway has just been completely reconstructed without any provision for the proposed NW Busway. Same answer - strong philosophical opposition. The latest big idea is that we do nothing because autonomous cars will make public transport obsolete. The problem is absolutely not at Auckland Council/AT level - they would invest like a shot - IF, that is, central government didn't nix all the funding options that have been discussed.
This is not my beautiful house . . . This is not my beautiful wife
 
User avatar
LamboAston
Posts: 617
Joined: Thu Nov 12, 2015 6:46 am

Re: New Zealand Aviation - February 2017

Fri Feb 10, 2017 4:26 am

nascarnut wrote:
Could 2017 be a year of consolidation for the AIAL.
So far they have hastily added 3 new layover gates, construction on 2 additional A380 gates or 4 more narrowbody gates depending on mix is well underway and appears will be completed prior to Christmas 2017.
Qatar has started and fitting in quite well with their 0500 or earlier arrival and 1440 departure. Airbridges are not a problem for them.
No new airlines have been announced.
Only airline announcements have been
KE - maintaining 747-800 over the winter albeit with the usual reduced schedule
TG - moving from 777-200 to 777-300 from September.
UA - after a six month hiatus from Apr to Sep will return with daily 777-200 increasing to 10 777-200 per week. Layover time for the three additional allows for them to operate Transtasman if they wanted.
Norfolk Air - weekly 737-300 AKL-NLK replacing NZ.
New Airlines Internationally. Hard to say. Is AKL proving profitable for Air Asia and Hong Kong Airlines to encourage other Asian low cost carriers to consider (Scoot, Cebu etc)
Garuda has mentioned AKL but nothing yet. Air Nuigini remains quiet while the Japanese carriers are also leaving AKL alone. Surprised to see JL give monopoly service from AKL to NRT/HND and KIX all to NZ along with the NH codeshare.
Could the Chinese still be sleeping. They seem to need very little lead in time for a start-up service.
3U from Chongqing
CZ from Shenzhen
MF from Xiamen or Fuzhou
CA from Chegdu
MU from Wuhan or Kunming
Along with HU and GS possibly increasing frequency. All cities for 6-7 million plus populations.

Very little will change domestically, NZ has received the last of the A320's while they will continue to get ATR72-600, these are primarily to replace the older 500, not for expansion at this stage.
Could Jetstar, Air Chathams or Sounds Air look at new services to challenge Air NZ.

Could be a very quiet year but time will tell

Will be good to see B733s at AKL again. Can't wait to see the new gates and how soon they are constantly filled (immediately) with A380s and KE's 748. Will be busy next summer.
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