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jfklganyc
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JetBlue downguages Cuba

Tue Feb 07, 2017 7:45 pm

Everywhere-Havana 321-> 320

FLL-secondary cities 320->190

A bunch of us on here called this!
 
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ua900
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Re: JetBlue downguages Cuba

Tue Feb 07, 2017 7:52 pm

Seems in line with others, no? Interesting to see the Cuba enthusiasm waning so quickly. Is it primarily due to a drop in non-VFR traffic to Cuba beyond the initial curiosity or did the carriers grossly overestimate growth rates resulting from the licensing changes?

Side note, passing by the UA Cuba check in at EWR the other day the welcome committee in the form of 4-5 heavily armed port authority police officers would have made me feel less welcome than a EWR-TLV flight at the zoo that is gate 138.
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richierich
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Re: JetBlue downguages Cuba

Tue Feb 07, 2017 7:59 pm

ua900 wrote:
Seems in line with others, no? Interesting to see the Cuba enthusiasm waning so quickly. Is it primarily due to a drop in non-VFR traffic to Cuba beyond the initial curiosity or did the carriers grossly overestimate growth rates resulting from the licensing changes?
.


I think you answered your own question, at least partly. My hunch is that the uncertainty provided on travel to Cuba by the current political administration in Washington has more than somewhat dampened the fire as well.
None shall pass!!!!
 
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jfklganyc
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Re: JetBlue downguages Cuba

Tue Feb 07, 2017 8:15 pm

please dont blame the guy in office for 2 weeks

The Canadians and Europeans on here made me feel like I was posting BS when I reported on my flights there

The planes are empty

No credit cards excepted

Pos from Cuba non existant

Too much, too quickly and neither Cuba nor US travellers ready


Next will be the route cuts
 
lavalampluva
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Re: JetBlue downguages Cuba

Tue Feb 07, 2017 8:15 pm

Cuba just isn't panning out right now. No wonder SY asked for the 1-year delay to start.
Remind me to send a thank you note to Mr. Boeing.
 
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787fan8
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Re: JetBlue downguages Cuba

Tue Feb 07, 2017 8:16 pm

This does not surprise me one bit
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flyby519
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Re: JetBlue downguages Cuba

Tue Feb 07, 2017 8:18 pm

jfklganyc wrote:
please dont blame the guy in office for 2 weeks

The Canadians and Europeans on here made me feel like I was posting BS when I reported on my flights there

The planes are empty

No credit cards excepted

Pos from Cuba non existant

Too much, too quickly and neither Cuba nor US travellers ready


Next will be the route cuts


Yep, non-HAV routes will be chopped next.
 
commavia
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Re: JetBlue downguages Cuba

Tue Feb 07, 2017 8:23 pm

jfklganyc wrote:
please dont blame the guy in office for 2 weeks

The Canadians and Europeans on here made me feel like I was posting BS when I reported on my flights there

The planes are empty

No credit cards excepted

Pos from Cuba non existant

Too much, too quickly and neither Cuba nor US travellers ready

Next will be the route cuts


Indeed. Setting aside the politics or reasonable opinions one way or another, I highly doubt that the new administration has virtually anything to do with the relative performance of any of the U.S. carriers' new flights to Cuba. The reality was plainly obvious, clear to see, and entirely predictable - long before even the election let along inauguration. And, indeed, many of us predicted pretty much exactly what has happened. As said, there is simply not that much of a market from the U.S. to Cuba given the travel limitations in place - which, again, obviously existed long before the current administration - and the sheer economic weakness of the country. What market there is for scheduled commercial air service between the U.S. and Cuba is, and likely will for the foreseeable future remain, heavily weighted towards VFR, and thus heavily concentrated in a few, select markets - namely MIA and then, far behind, NYC and a few other Florida markets. The irrational exuberance aside, the market didn't need, and clearly cannot support, all the capacity dumped in by numerous entrants trying to "stake a claim." I still contend that, barring something dramatic changing anytime soon, the Cuba market for U.S. airlines will settle into a distinct bifurcation - with AA clearly out in front due to its structural advantages, followed distantly by JetBlue, and then just about everyone else (with maybe a few, minor exceptions) essentially way behind desperately trying to figure out how to make the market marginally viable.
 
tsnamm
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Re: JetBlue downguages Cuba

Tue Feb 07, 2017 8:35 pm

I'd be interested to see how long UA keeps IAH/HAV around. It is only once a week, but I'm pretty sure it has to suffer from the over exuberance plaguing these other cities besides MIA, NYC
 
JAAlbert
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Re: JetBlue downguages Cuba

Tue Feb 07, 2017 8:41 pm

When USA citizens can travel to Cuba as easily as we can get to the Domican Republic or Jamaica, you will see a flood of USA travelers to Cuba. Right now travel is still restricted to certain categories, which means that if you are just looking for a vacation, you can go - but it will cost you an arm and a leg. Why go now when you can wait a few years for the restrictions to ease? There are lots of interesting islands in the Caribbean in the meantime.

I think the airlines jumped on Cuba in a big way to lock up routes and market share on the belief that the travel restrictions would begin easing fairly quickly. With the new administration those assumptions may no longer be accurate.

It's a shame because I would visit Cuba in a heartbeat if it were a reasonably priced vacation.
 
FSDan
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Re: JetBlue downguages Cuba

Tue Feb 07, 2017 8:59 pm

commavia wrote:
I still contend that, barring something dramatic changing anytime soon, the Cuba market for U.S. airlines will settle into a distinct bifurcation - with AA clearly out in front due to its structural advantages, followed distantly by JetBlue, and then just about everyone else (with maybe a few, minor exceptions) essentially way behind desperately trying to figure out how to make the market marginally viable.


I think UA and DL should do OK in Cuba - neither applied for non-HAV routes, and with the exception of IAH-HAV (which is only 1x weekly) the markets seem to make sense. DL has 1x daily 320 from MIA, and 1x daily 319 each from ATL and JFK. UA has 1x daily 738 from EWR. None of that seems like overkill in the same way that 3M and AS's applications do.
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commavia
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Re: JetBlue downguages Cuba

Tue Feb 07, 2017 9:06 pm

FSDan wrote:
I think UA and DL should do OK in Cuba - neither applied for non-HAV routes, and with the exception of IAH-HAV (which is only 1x weekly) the markets seem to make sense. DL has 1x daily 320 from MIA, and 1x daily 319 each from ATL and JFK. UA has 1x daily 738 from EWR. None of that seems like overkill in the same way that 3M and AS's applications do.


I agree. I should clarify - I think others will struggle with supporting both the scale and financial performance that AA, and to a lesser extent JetBlue, will be able to make viable. In general, both Delta and United seemed to have approached Cuba very logically - going for the one market that actually seems to work, HAV, from key hubs and gateways. Smart. I think both will be able to make those routes work.
 
Aeroflot001
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Re: JetBlue downguages Cuba

Tue Feb 07, 2017 9:43 pm

JAAlbert wrote:
It's a shame because I would visit Cuba in a heartbeat if it were a reasonably priced vacation.


I went to Havana for 4 days/3 nights and I found it to be a very cheap trip. I stayed at a casa particular through AirBNB for $35 a night, food and drinks were very cheap at paladares with excellent reviews and so was transport (haggling in Spanish did help though). Even the hop-on/hop-off bus is $10 a day.

Hotel prices in Havana are outrageous at $300+ p/night.

Something that needs to change is the visa policy, $100 for a single entry tourist card which costs $15-$20 elsewhere in the world is not a good way to promote visitors.
 
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ua900
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Re: JetBlue downguages Cuba

Tue Feb 07, 2017 10:19 pm

Aeroflot001 wrote:
JAAlbert wrote:
It's a shame because I would visit Cuba in a heartbeat if it were a reasonably priced vacation.


I went to Havana for 4 days/3 nights and I found it to be a very cheap trip. I stayed at a casa particular through AirBNB for $35 a night, food and drinks were very cheap at paladares with excellent reviews and so was transport (haggling in Spanish did help though). Even the hop-on/hop-off bus is $10 a day.

Hotel prices in Havana are outrageous at $300+ p/night.

Something that needs to change is the visa policy, $100 for a single entry tourist card which costs $15-$20 elsewhere in the world is not a good way to promote visitors.


Interesting, so where there any restrictions for you to prove that it wasn't tourist travel? From what I heard, there are lots of category of cultural activities that qualify under a general license. Obviously not taking cards could be a bit of a issue, but a number of countries still have problems with that. Don't you basically self-certify with the airline to ensure compliance with the terms of the general license, put together a non-tourist itinerary and then go?

Gouging on tourist cards and insurance aside, I'd still go given that it's now more accessible. I applied for a license in the past since I'm now subject to U.S. jurisdiction but it seemed like a very opaque process with lots of U.S. cultural tour operators ready to charge exorbitant fees to the tune of $4-5k. I figured that's not worth it in return for say attending a May Day parade or some other government event that provides support for the Cuban people as a general license might call for.

As far as the new administration, I agree that two weeks isn't nearly enough to say what's going to happen. IMO the current president may surprise us by being more pragmatic and business friendly than many folks realize. After all Cuba has a trade deficit with the United States, we're gaining in many areas, for example with agricultural sales.
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Re: JetBlue downguages Cuba

Tue Feb 07, 2017 11:11 pm

I think everyone was experiencing a little irrational exuberance at what the relaxation of travel to Cuba would bring. Credit to UA as they had the most conservative approach, daily to EWR and SA to IAH. I think the Cuban market has a long way to go before it can support the type of flights everyone was applying for, it's not the Dominican Republic or Cancun. The infrastructure, hotels, tour guides etc.. have to have time to develop and market themselves for the US-Cuba tourist.

I think the industry best prepared to benefit from US-Cuban tourism would be the Cruise industry. They don't need the infrastructure, they bring their own restaurants and hotel with them, and they can tie it in to other ports. You can link Cuba to current Key West and Bahama cruises, or tie it into the Cozumel, Jamaica, Grand Cayman routes.
Being so close to Florida the Cruise market has some real upside , and soon. However I think they're still operating with some restrictions. Besides Florida I can see cruises to Cuba from New Orleans and Galveston being popular, I could even see Cuban cruises joining the portfolio of Cruises from New York (Cape Liberty, Manhattan, Brooklyn).
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Re: JetBlue downguages Cuba

Tue Feb 07, 2017 11:16 pm

jfklganyc wrote:
please dont blame the guy in office for 2 weeks

Because we had no idea he was going to be in office since November AT ALL
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jumbojet
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Re: JetBlue downguages Cuba

Tue Feb 07, 2017 11:51 pm

any sensible person would think, what in the heck was JetBlue thinking by being as aggressive as they were with secondary Cuban markets. Seems that Delta played it smartly and safely with HAV only flights. Another classic example of jetblue not doing their homework. Their is still a lot regional carriers like JetBlue can learn from the more experienced 'big 3' network carriers. JetBlue definitely got schooled in Cuba, big time.
 
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Re: JetBlue downguages Cuba

Wed Feb 08, 2017 12:51 am

jumbojet wrote:
Any sensible person would think, what in the heck was JetBlue thinking by being as aggressive as they were with secondary Cuban markets. Seems that Delta played it smartly and safely with HAV only flights. Another classic example of jetblue not doing their homework.

The biggest problem here is ... what homework?

When airlines start into markets, they have a pretty good idea how many people in A want to fly to B. Airline alliances make that even easier. But ... for American carriers, there isn't really that much on what one can draw when it comes to traffic to Cuba, as that information would not be easily available.

Maybe jetBlue looked at the Canada to Cuba market and thought similar travelers would result in similar demand. Right now, Air Canada, rouge, Air Transat, Sunwing and Westjet have roughly a hundred flights a day from Canada to Cuba. Only one, is to Havana! All of the rest are to "secondary markets". I can see how jetBlue came to the conclusion that it was a reasonable gamble.

In retrospect though, it would appear that while there is tepid demand to Havana, the vacation/leisure market has not developed at all. Airlines will have to put together more than just a flight to Santa Clara (for example) without also arranging the entire vacation package.
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tp1040
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Re: JetBlue downguages Cuba

Wed Feb 08, 2017 12:57 am

Until Cuba develops world class all inclusive resorts, I would imagine most people on holiday would just rather go someplace else.
 
jetbluefan1
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Re: JetBlue downguages Cuba

Wed Feb 08, 2017 1:15 am

Not a surprise. The markets will take awhile to mature and A321's to HAV and A320's to secondary cities is a whole lot of capacity. It's a relatively painless move given B6 has the fleet flexibility.

My big question is where all those A321 seats will be redeployed. B6 can't get A321's in fast enough, and even leased 2 to start HAV service.

B6 management alluded to some quick adjustments after the disastrous January outlook. This down gauge looks to be well in line with that, and is included in the 100bp reduction in 2017 capacity growth announced yesterday (5.5-7.5% from 6.5-5.5%).
 
fastmover
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Re: JetBlue downguages Cuba

Wed Feb 08, 2017 1:25 am

jumbojet wrote:
any sensible person would think, what in the heck was JetBlue thinking by being as aggressive as they were with secondary Cuban markets. Seems that Delta played it smartly and safely with HAV only flights. Another classic example of jetblue not doing their homework. Their is still a lot regional carriers like JetBlue can learn from the more experienced 'big 3' network carriers. JetBlue definitely got schooled in Cuba, big time.



You just can't help yourself.
They are slots that might not ever come around again. So they were aggressive, if they were not people would be on here saying what the heck were they thinking. I am sure they always knew if it didn't work right away they could grow some 190s on it hold onto the rights and see what happens. It's not the end for JetBlue.

I do find you love for mighty Delta amazing. Yes yes so smart, let's just overlook that BK issue and the taking of the pilots pensions no big deal. Maybe JetBlue should learn for the big 3 about how to not pay your bills and get away with it while screwing over your people.

Did JetBlue leave your family stuck somewhere? Why the hate in every post of yours?
 
airliner371
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Re: JetBlue downguages Cuba

Wed Feb 08, 2017 1:51 am

jfklganyc wrote:
Pos from Cuba non existant

Not entirely true, Gary Kelly of Southwest said, "I've been actually pleasantly surprised at the demand from Cubans flying to the U.S and back a lot of times with our international routes and the again you have to understand that we're new at this, we've only been flying international about two and a half years. A lot of our markets we've built up the airplanes with U.S citizens only operate and coming back. In this case where we're getting a fair amount of local traffic coming to the U.S as well."
 
Varsity1
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Re: JetBlue downguages Cuba

Wed Feb 08, 2017 2:17 am

fastmover wrote:
jumbojet wrote:
any sensible person would think, what in the heck was JetBlue thinking by being as aggressive as they were with secondary Cuban markets. Seems that Delta played it smartly and safely with HAV only flights. Another classic example of jetblue not doing their homework. Their is still a lot regional carriers like JetBlue can learn from the more experienced 'big 3' network carriers. JetBlue definitely got schooled in Cuba, big time.



You just can't help yourself.
They are slots that might not ever come around again. So they were aggressive, if they were not people would be on here saying what the heck were they thinking. I am sure they always knew if it didn't work right away they could grow some 190s on it hold onto the rights and see what happens. It's not the end for JetBlue.

I do find you love for mighty Delta amazing. Yes yes so smart, let's just overlook that BK issue and the taking of the pilots pensions no big deal. Maybe JetBlue should learn for the big 3 about how to not pay your bills and get away with it while screwing over your people.

Did JetBlue leave your family stuck somewhere? Why the hate in every post of yours?


Jetblue already pays it's crews less. Well on their way to 'not paying bills'.
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jumbojet
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Re: JetBlue downguages Cuba

Wed Feb 08, 2017 2:42 am

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that Cuba lacks most of the basics that we take for granted. As others have pointed out, lack of ATM's, banking, woefully inadequate infrastructure. JetBlue simply did not do their homework. It will be years upon years before Cuba can build itself up to be a destination that people will want to visit. So, if JetBlue wants to send near empty aircraft to Cuba for 10 years until it can become marketable for outsiders, than that is their prerogative. This sort of decision reminds me a lot of the inexperience's of JetBlue's past (think February 2007).
 
Biged
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Re: JetBlue downguages Cuba

Wed Feb 08, 2017 2:43 am

Good loads out of TPA in December but fares where very cheap.
 
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Re: JetBlue downguages Cuba

Wed Feb 08, 2017 2:44 am

fastmover wrote:
I do find you love for mighty Delta amazing. Yes yes so smart, let's just overlook that BK issue and the taking of the pilots pensions no big deal.


Besides the BK and pensions, don't forget about losing millions trying to run an oil refinery. Millions that could have been spent on a functional IT system that doesn't shut down flights globally every time someone trips over a power cord in Atlanta.
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: JetBlue downguages Cuba

Wed Feb 08, 2017 3:05 am

ua900 wrote:
Seems in line with others, no? Interesting to see the Cuba enthusiasm waning so quickly. Is it primarily due to a drop in non-VFR traffic to Cuba beyond the initial curiosity or did the carriers grossly overestimate growth rates resulting from the licensing changes?

Not sure why anyone would've expected otherwise, as long as there are still bullshit artificial restrictions that make travel there an exercise in tediousness.

Unless someone has a strong desire to see Cuba as it is before it changes, why bother booking there, when you can go to Jamaica, the D.R., St.Maarten, Puerto Rico, etc?
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
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BobPatterson
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Re: JetBlue downguages Cuba

Wed Feb 08, 2017 3:25 am

jumbojet wrote:
It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that Cuba lacks most of the basics that we take for granted. As others have pointed out, lack of ATM's, banking, woefully inadequate infrastructure. JetBlue simply did not do their homework. It will be years upon years before Cuba can build itself up to be a destination that people will want to visit. So, if JetBlue wants to send near empty aircraft to Cuba for 10 years until it can become marketable for outsiders, than that is their prerogative. This sort of decision reminds me a lot of the inexperience's of JetBlue's past (think February 2007).


Why do so many people from Canada and Europe visit and vacation in Cuba every day (numerous flights)? Obviously you have failed to consider this.
Facts are fragile things. Treat them with care. Sources are important. Alternative facts do not exist.
 
jumbojet
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Re: JetBlue downguages Cuba

Wed Feb 08, 2017 3:33 am

BobPatterson wrote:
jumbojet wrote:
It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that Cuba lacks most of the basics that we take for granted. As others have pointed out, lack of ATM's, banking, woefully inadequate infrastructure. JetBlue simply did not do their homework. It will be years upon years before Cuba can build itself up to be a destination that people will want to visit. So, if JetBlue wants to send near empty aircraft to Cuba for 10 years until it can become marketable for outsiders, than that is their prerogative. This sort of decision reminds me a lot of the inexperience's of JetBlue's past (think February 2007).


Why do so many people from Canada and Europe visit and vacation in Cuba every day (numerous flights)? Obviously you have failed to consider this.


Really? truly pathetic comparison. Then according to you, people from the U.S.A. should be flocking to Camaguey, Holguin and Santa Clara but there not, which is why JetBlue is down-gauging flights to those cities. :roll:
 
StuckinCMHland
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Re: JetBlue downguages Cuba

Wed Feb 08, 2017 3:33 am

BobPatterson wrote:
jumbojet wrote:
It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that Cuba lacks most of the basics that we take for granted. As others have pointed out, lack of ATM's, banking, woefully inadequate infrastructure. JetBlue simply did not do their homework. It will be years upon years before Cuba can build itself up to be a destination that people will want to visit. So, if JetBlue wants to send near empty aircraft to Cuba for 10 years until it can become marketable for outsiders, than that is their prerogative. This sort of decision reminds me a lot of the inexperience's of JetBlue's past (think February 2007).


Why do so many people from Canada and Europe visit and vacation in Cuba every day (numerous flights)? Obviously you have failed to consider this.


With respect, because it is easy to stay in beach hotels where prices are low and ignore the horrible poverty, obscene treatment of black and minorities, and the ruthless totalitarian state the rest of Cuba is living under. If you do not know what is going on, its easy to find a reason to stay there. The island is a modern day Potemkin village, and the Castro brothers have done a good job pulling the wool over people's eyes.

This is the best news I've read all day.
 
fastmover
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Re: JetBlue downguages Cuba

Wed Feb 08, 2017 3:53 am

Varsity1 wrote:
fastmover wrote:
jumbojet wrote:
any sensible person would think, what in the heck was JetBlue thinking by being as aggressive as they were with secondary Cuban markets. Seems that Delta played it smartly and safely with HAV only flights. Another classic example of jetblue not doing their homework. Their is still a lot regional carriers like JetBlue can learn from the more experienced 'big 3' network carriers. JetBlue definitely got schooled in Cuba, big time.



You just can't help yourself.
They are slots that might not ever come around again. So they were aggressive, if they were not people would be on here saying what the heck were they thinking. I am sure they always knew if it didn't work right away they could grow some 190s on it hold onto the rights and see what happens. It's not the end for JetBlue.

I do find you love for mighty Delta amazing. Yes yes so smart, let's just overlook that BK issue and the taking of the pilots pensions no big deal. Maybe JetBlue should learn for the big 3 about how to not pay your bills and get away with it while screwing over your people.

Did JetBlue leave your family stuck somewhere? Why the hate in every post of yours?


Jetblue already pays it's crews less. Well on their way to 'not paying bills'.


What a joke.
Yeah well on their way to not paying bills. Sure man.
They have been paying cash for airplanes and paying down debt(have you seen Americans debt?)
They are far from using BK because that can't manage their airline.
 
fastmover
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Re: JetBlue downguages Cuba

Wed Feb 08, 2017 4:06 am

IPFreely wrote:
fastmover wrote:
I do find you love for mighty Delta amazing. Yes yes so smart, let's just overlook that BK issue and the taking of the pilots pensions no big deal.


Besides the BK and pensions, don't forget about losing millions trying to run an oil refinery. Millions that could have been spent on a functional IT system that doesn't shut down flights globally every time someone trips over a power cord in Atlanta.


But they are Delta, I am sure jumbo will tell us that it was a great idea. Seems like Delta does no wrong.
Look in airline history JetBlue is still a kid. But they are growing and innovating(jumbo was not impressed with mint) They are paying down debt and paying cash for airplanes. They have a CEO who is very aggressive and wants to do things to make JetBlue a real competitive airline. The big 3 have tons of planes and huge networks and vast amounts of experience, but little JetBlue keeps growing and even taking them on. Heck everyone just about ditched BOS until JetBlue made it work(without JetBlue you would see all the international traffic). There just seems to be a little anti JetBlue bias on here and I don't know why. Meanwhile Delta or Southwest could announce they are going with rubber band powered planes and everyone on here would be like what a great idea.
 
usflyguy
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Re: JetBlue downguages Cuba

Wed Feb 08, 2017 4:19 am

tsnamm wrote:
I'd be interested to see how long UA keeps IAH/HAV around. It is only once a week, but I'm pretty sure it has to suffer from the over exuberance plaguing these other cities besides MIA, NYC


Or AS on LAX-HAV... aren't they supposed to up it to double daily? Anyone have any idea what the current LF's are like? If the seat maps are any indication, it doesn't look good. Also, I can book a RT departing tomorrow for $385.
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BobPatterson
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Re: JetBlue downguages Cuba

Wed Feb 08, 2017 4:40 am

jumbojet wrote:
BobPatterson wrote:
jumbojet wrote:
It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that Cuba lacks most of the basics that we take for granted. As others have pointed out, lack of ATM's, banking, woefully inadequate infrastructure. JetBlue simply did not do their homework. It will be years upon years before Cuba can build itself up to be a destination that people will want to visit. So, if JetBlue wants to send near empty aircraft to Cuba for 10 years until it can become marketable for outsiders, than that is their prerogative. This sort of decision reminds me a lot of the inexperience's of JetBlue's past (think February 2007).


Why do so many people from Canada and Europe visit and vacation in Cuba every day (numerous flights)? Obviously you have failed to consider this.


Really? truly pathetic comparison. Then according to you, people from the U.S.A. should be flocking to Camaguey, Holguin and Santa Clara but there not, which is why JetBlue is down-gauging flights to those cities. :roll:


There are numerous reasons why Americans are not flocking to Cuba, the main one being that the US Government makes it somewhat difficult for Americans to do so.

If JetBlue was flying from Canada they would have no trouble filling seats.
Facts are fragile things. Treat them with care. Sources are important. Alternative facts do not exist.
 
texdravid
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Re: JetBlue downguages Cuba

Wed Feb 08, 2017 7:30 am

I for one am happy that the Cuba routes are doing poorly.

Cuba is still a totalitarian communist state that simply traded one Castro for another. It is a rancid mix of state controlled poverty, racism toward Afro-Cubans and despair.

Yeah sure, Canadians go there for the urban "cool" feeling that they can tell their fellow hipsters on Younge and Eddleston streets, and so can the same hipsters in the east village, but for the vast majority of Americans, they have no interest. None at all.

As it should be.

Let Cuba finally become free instead of an Obama vanity pet project and then we can talk air travel.
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texdravid
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Re: JetBlue downguages Cuba

Wed Feb 08, 2017 7:30 am

I for one am happy that the Cuba routes are doing poorly.

Cuba is still a totalitarian communist state that simply traded one Castro for another. It is a rancid mix of state controlled poverty, racism toward Afro-Cubans and despair.

Yeah sure, Canadians go there for the urban "cool" feeling that they can tell their fellow hipsters on Younge and Eddleston streets, and so can the same hipsters in the east village, but for the vast majority of Americans, they have no interest. None at all.

As it should be.

Let Cuba finally become free instead of an Obama vanity pet project and then we can talk air travel.
Tort reform now. Throw lawyers in jail later.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: JetBlue downguages Cuba

Wed Feb 08, 2017 8:21 am

jumbojet wrote:
It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that Cuba lacks most of the basics that we take for granted. As others have pointed out, lack of ATM's, banking, woefully inadequate infrastructure. JetBlue simply did not do their homework.


The 2014 visitor count from Canada (population 35.4 million) was 1.2 million.

https://www.thestar.com/life/travel/201 ... mbers.html

That's more than a few hipsters who've been able to overlook the absence of ATMs. Statistics Canada puts Cuba as the 3rd most popular international destination for Canadians, with about 70% of the visitor count that goes to Mexico. More Canadians go to Cuba than to the U.K. It's not hard to think that lots of Americans will want to go to Cuba - but the nonsense of the travel limitations (liftable only by act of Congress) surely gets in the way.

http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/11-402-x/2 ... ut-eng.htm
 
klwright69
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Re: JetBlue downguages Cuba

Wed Feb 08, 2017 9:16 am

UA is not going anywhere. They clearly took a measured approach. A daily flight from EWR and a weekly flight from IAH to HAV is very limited exposure. Not very large aircraft for flights that are not terribly long. It's not a big risk and they will stick around. The airlines that took this approach will be okay in the long run.
 
jumbojet
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Re: JetBlue downguages Cuba

Wed Feb 08, 2017 10:19 am

MIflyer12 wrote:
jumbojet wrote:
It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that Cuba lacks most of the basics that we take for granted. As others have pointed out, lack of ATM's, banking, woefully inadequate infrastructure. JetBlue simply did not do their homework.


The 2014 visitor count from Canada (population 35.4 million) was 1.2 million.

https://www.thestar.com/life/travel/201 ... mbers.html

That's more than a few hipsters who've been able to overlook the absence of ATMs. Statistics Canada puts Cuba as the 3rd most popular international destination for Canadians, with about 70% of the visitor count that goes to Mexico. More Canadians go to Cuba than to the U.K. It's not hard to think that lots of Americans will want to go to Cuba - but the nonsense of the travel limitations (liftable only by act of Congress) surely gets in the way.

http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/11-402-x/2 ... ut-eng.htm


umm, last I checked, the USA and Canada, while all part of North America, are separate and distinctly different countries so I do not know why you are throwing Canadian stats at me. If JetBlue did their homework based on Canadian and European travel habits then they failed. Plain and simple. I don't know why so many people immediately get defensive when it comes to JetBlue. If this was DL that started up (which they wouldn't) Cuba service to secondary cities, they would get lambasted.
 
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jfklganyc
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Re: JetBlue downguages Cuba

Wed Feb 08, 2017 12:20 pm

All the slots outside of HAV are useless anyway. Easily available no?

JB, cut your losses...you need the aircraft and gates in FLL for a big fight coming up later this year...WN. Start gettimg ready for a prolonged battle in this hub.
 
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Loew
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Re: JetBlue downguages Cuba

Wed Feb 08, 2017 2:42 pm

Just my two cents here, but Cuba is a specific market. That being said, statistics show Cuba got over 4 mil. tourist just during 2016, which is quite impressive for a country considered closed to the world. These tourists however, are coming from countries such as Canada, France, Germany, UK and other EU countries, as well as China. Most of these countries have long-standing air connections already in place. I personally have been to Cuba several times before, and fares from Europe to Havana or Varadero are always at least a double of the cheapest Germany-New York fare, but usually even more. Yet, planes are packed with tourists. In my opinion, US carriers found themselves in somewhat difficult situation, trying to serve market that is already well served. Canadians just fly Air Canada, Air Transat or Sunwing. Europeans just fly Condor, Air France, Edelweiss, Finnair, LOT, Air Berlin... the list goes on. And Chinese travellers just fly Air China. None of these travel groups need to/want to change planes in the USA. US carriers are therefore dependant primarily on US travellers. Sure I would fly American to Cuba from Europe for a change, but plane nuts are not your ordinary people on board. If USA would lift travel bans and restrictions, Cuban tourism market will absolutely soar. Varadero is already a peninsula 20km long with large and larger hotels running entire lenght both shores. Again very impressive capacity for such a country. Still that absolutely won´t be enough to handle sudden US tourism influx. With travel restrictions in place however, things are not going to change greatly for US carriers.
 
richierich
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Re: JetBlue downguages Cuba

Wed Feb 08, 2017 3:25 pm

IPFreely wrote:
fastmover wrote:
I do find you love for mighty Delta amazing. Yes yes so smart, let's just overlook that BK issue and the taking of the pilots pensions no big deal.


Besides the BK and pensions, don't forget about losing millions trying to run an oil refinery. Millions that could have been spent on a functional IT system that doesn't shut down flights globally every time someone trips over a power cord in Atlanta.


You didn't even mention Song. I guess if somebody can bring up a snowstorm from a decade ago, then a failed airline-within-an-airline model from the same period is game too. Yes, JetBlue should clearly be following Delta's model (sarcasm.) It is beyond idiotic and completely off-topic to insinuate that B6 is somehow in financial trouble because of the downgauging of equipment to one market (Cuba) - did that poster say the same thing when AA did the same and reduced frequency?

It is hard to pinpoint exactly why demand to Cuba is not as high as was expected but it seems to be affected all airlines proportionally. I absolutely believe it is the travel restrictions (for US travelers) to and from the island. Until tourism is a legitimate reason to go there, people will choose to go elsewhere. And, of course, the challenges don't end there - getting around Cuba is not easy. US travelers face difficulties accessing cash (the few ATMs don't accept US cards), and nowhere accepts US-based credit cards. As somebody who spent my own dime and went to HAV for a short trip, I can vouch that this is not somewhere to visit if you want a typical Caribbean vacation!

I apologize if this sounds like I'm dragging this thread into a political argument, but who knows if any US-airlines will even be operating to Cuba in a year or two. What is clear is that the Trump administration is hell-bent on reversing many Obama policies, for better or for worse, and he is certainly not pro-Cuba, so yes I do believe (without statistical backup) that this has an affect on the market performance. The few Cubans I had a chance to speak with welcomed the few US tourists they had seen, as well as mixing in some rebellious pride, but they too were concerned that the new WH regime may reverse course on the recent thaw in the relations of the two countries. And that really is too bad, in my opinion, as Americans are missing out on an amazing cultural and rich historical experience in Cuba.
None shall pass!!!!
 
flyby519
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Re: JetBlue downguages Cuba

Wed Feb 08, 2017 3:35 pm

richierich wrote:
IPFreely wrote:
fastmover wrote:
I do find you love for mighty Delta amazing. Yes yes so smart, let's just overlook that BK issue and the taking of the pilots pensions no big deal.


Besides the BK and pensions, don't forget about losing millions trying to run an oil refinery. Millions that could have been spent on a functional IT system that doesn't shut down flights globally every time someone trips over a power cord in Atlanta.


You didn't even mention Song. I guess if somebody can bring up a snowstorm from a decade ago, then a failed airline-within-an-airline model from the same period is game too. Yes, JetBlue should clearly be following Delta's model (sarcasm.) It is beyond idiotic and completely off-topic to insinuate that B6 is somehow in financial trouble because of the downgauging of equipment to one market (Cuba) - did that poster say the same thing when AA did the same and reduced frequency?

It is hard to pinpoint exactly why demand to Cuba is not as high as was expected but it seems to be affected all airlines proportionally. I absolutely believe it is the travel restrictions (for US travelers) to and from the island. Until tourism is a legitimate reason to go there, people will choose to go elsewhere. And, of course, the challenges don't end there - getting around Cuba is not easy. US travelers face difficulties accessing cash (the few ATMs don't accept US cards), and nowhere accepts US-based credit cards. As somebody who spent my own dime and went to HAV for a short trip, I can vouch that this is not somewhere to visit if you want a typical Caribbean vacation!

I apologize if this sounds like I'm dragging this thread into a political argument, but who knows if any US-airlines will even be operating to Cuba in a year or two. What is clear is that the Trump administration is hell-bent on reversing many Obama policies, for better or for worse, and he is certainly not pro-Cuba, so yes I do believe (without statistical backup) that this has an affect on the market performance. The few Cubans I had a chance to speak with welcomed the few US tourists they had seen, as well as mixing in some rebellious pride, but they too were concerned that the new WH regime may reverse course on the recent thaw in the relations of the two countries. And that really is too bad, in my opinion, as Americans are missing out on an amazing cultural and rich historical experience in Cuba.


Additionally, I think the relationships are much more complicated between Cuban-Americans, Cuba, Cuban Government, and Cubans. It isn't the same as Dominican-Americans, Dominican Republic, Dominicans.
 
danduc
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Re: JetBlue downguages Cuba

Wed Feb 08, 2017 3:53 pm

jumbojet wrote:
BobPatterson wrote:
jumbojet wrote:
It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that Cuba lacks most of the basics that we take for granted. As others have pointed out, lack of ATM's, banking, woefully inadequate infrastructure. JetBlue simply did not do their homework. It will be years upon years before Cuba can build itself up to be a destination that people will want to visit. So, if JetBlue wants to send near empty aircraft to Cuba for 10 years until it can become marketable for outsiders, than that is their prerogative. This sort of decision reminds me a lot of the inexperience's of JetBlue's past (think February 2007).


Why do so many people from Canada and Europe visit and vacation in Cuba every day (numerous flights)? Obviously you have failed to consider this.


Really? truly pathetic comparison. Then according to you, people from the U.S.A. should be flocking to Camaguey, Holguin and Santa Clara but there not, which is why JetBlue is down-gauging flights to those cities. :roll:


Millions of Canadians and European do flock to Santa Clara, Holguin and Camaguey. World class resorts are a bus ride away. Infrastructure are fine. Of course, you will want to experience the Real Cuba also. Been there a few time with the family and loved it.
 
richierich
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Re: JetBlue downguages Cuba

Wed Feb 08, 2017 4:07 pm

danduc wrote:
Millions of Canadians and European do flock to Santa Clara, Holguin and Camaguey. World class resorts are a bus ride away. Infrastructure are fine. Of course, you will want to experience the Real Cuba also. Been there a few time with the family and loved it.


Unfortunately that is not true for Americans. Living in the US, it would be extremely difficult to book a family vacation at "world class resort" in Cuba. Not impossible, but difficult...difficult enough that I would choose to go elsewhere with my family.
None shall pass!!!!
 
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yellowtail
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Re: JetBlue downguages Cuba

Wed Feb 08, 2017 4:08 pm

what everyone fails to realise is that the Canadian market to Cuba is for the most part very price sensitive, that is why you see players like Sunwing etc in there. Sunwing even runs its own hotels there to keep the vacations costs low.

While the US market does have price sensitive travellers, currently the kind of traveller that wants to go to cuba is more up market, that will demand a higher standard of resort etc. The price sensitive US travellers are still hooked on going to CUN and the DR and to a lesser extent MBJ and Cabo
When in doubt, hold on to your altitude. No-one has ever collided with the sky.
 
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BobPatterson
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Re: JetBlue downguages Cuba

Wed Feb 08, 2017 5:39 pm

StuckinCMHland wrote:
BobPatterson wrote:
jumbojet wrote:
It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that Cuba lacks most of the basics that we take for granted. As others have pointed out, lack of ATM's, banking, woefully inadequate infrastructure. JetBlue simply did not do their homework. It will be years upon years before Cuba can build itself up to be a destination that people will want to visit. So, if JetBlue wants to send near empty aircraft to Cuba for 10 years until it can become marketable for outsiders, than that is their prerogative. This sort of decision reminds me a lot of the inexperience's of JetBlue's past (think February 2007).


Why do so many people from Canada and Europe visit and vacation in Cuba every day (numerous flights)? Obviously you have failed to consider this.


With respect, because it is easy to stay in beach hotels where prices are low and ignore the horrible poverty, obscene treatment of black and minorities, and the ruthless totalitarian state the rest of Cuba is living under. If you do not know what is going on, its easy to find a reason to stay there. The island is a modern day Potemkin village, and the Castro brothers have done a good job pulling the wool over people's eyes.

This is the best news I've read all day.


With respect to you and your opinions, my response to jumbojet was with regard to his illogical statement "It will be years upon years before Cuba can build itself up to be a destination that people will want to visit". There is a thriving tourist industry in Cuba today, and jumbojet chooses to ignore that fact.

The main reason Americans are not flocking to Cuba is travel restrictions. There is absolutely no reason to think (as far as I can see) that many Americans will refuse to vacation in Cuba when they are free to do so. In fact, I would suggest that they would oversubscribe available resort accommodations until the Cuban tourist industry can build additional facilities (probably dominated by American and other hotel chains).

Regarding the political considerations that you mentioned, I pretty much agree with you. But people will ignore such niceties to save money, just as they ignore or passively accept the "race-to-the-bottom" in air travel.
Facts are fragile things. Treat them with care. Sources are important. Alternative facts do not exist.

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