andrej
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Austrian Courts Stops 3rd RWY at VIE (LOWW)

Thu Feb 09, 2017 4:53 pm

Austrian Federal Court ruled against a third runway at Vienna (VIE / LOWW) as "an increase in air traffic would lead to a significant increase in greenhouse gas emissions in Austria" and it would increase "carbon dioxide levels responsible for climate change." (https://www.bvwg.gv.at/presse/dritte_pi ... _wien.html)

Is this the end of VIE's plan to construct this RWY? No more passenger expansion to 30 million target? In the worst case, Bratislava could benefit from this (just build direct rail connection to Vienna - city and airport). :)
 
LGAviation
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Re: Austrian Courts Stops 3rd RWY at VIE (LOWW)

Fri Feb 10, 2017 7:41 pm

Thanks for sharing. I always thought us Germans were crazy with our strict noise level provisions, but carbon dioxide takes this to another level. I believe that the better solution would be to aim at having the carriers operate modern engines with less emissions.
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ScottB
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Re: Austrian Courts Stops 3rd RWY at VIE (LOWW)

Fri Feb 10, 2017 10:23 pm

LGAviation wrote:
Thanks for sharing. I always thought us Germans were crazy with our strict noise level provisions, but carbon dioxide takes this to another level. I believe that the better solution would be to aim at having the carriers operate modern engines with less emissions.


I can't say I understand the logic unless the intent is to ultimately reduce the number of people flying to & from Vienna/Austria. Connecting traffic will simply flow through other airports and the net impact on CO2 emissions will be zero. In fact, emissions might ultimately be higher if congestion at VIE increases due to lack of adequate runway capacity.
 
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eisenbach
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Re: Austrian Courts Stops 3rd RWY at VIE (LOWW)

Fri Feb 10, 2017 10:59 pm

The airport will bring this topic to the next level. The court made references to laws, reducing CO2, and therefore the runway should not be built. I guess it will be quiet easy to argue against that (e.g. less holding pattern), but our judges in Austria are more than strange, so you never know what will come :)
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VS11
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Re: Austrian Courts Stops 3rd RWY at VIE (LOWW)

Sat Feb 11, 2017 12:18 am

ScottB wrote:
LGAviation wrote:
Thanks for sharing. I always thought us Germans were crazy with our strict noise level provisions, but carbon dioxide takes this to another level. I believe that the better solution would be to aim at having the carriers operate modern engines with less emissions.


I can't say I understand the logic unless the intent is to ultimately reduce the number of people flying to & from Vienna/Austria. Connecting traffic will simply flow through other airports and the net impact on CO2 emissions will be zero. In fact, emissions might ultimately be higher if congestion at VIE increases due to lack of adequate runway capacity.


The logic seems pretty straightforward. Decrease frequency and use bigger planes. Less is more.
 
kalvado
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Re: Austrian Courts Stops 3rd RWY at VIE (LOWW)

Sat Feb 11, 2017 12:37 am

VS11 wrote:
ScottB wrote:
LGAviation wrote:
Thanks for sharing. I always thought us Germans were crazy with our strict noise level provisions, but carbon dioxide takes this to another level. I believe that the better solution would be to aim at having the carriers operate modern engines with less emissions.


I can't say I understand the logic unless the intent is to ultimately reduce the number of people flying to & from Vienna/Austria. Connecting traffic will simply flow through other airports and the net impact on CO2 emissions will be zero. In fact, emissions might ultimately be higher if congestion at VIE increases due to lack of adequate runway capacity.


The logic seems pretty straightforward. Decrease frequency and use bigger planes. Less is more.

And all connections should go through DXB. That way 2 or 3 daily A380 would cover all the bases. VIE-DXB-FRA is only 5200 miles detour!
 
VS11
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Re: Austrian Courts Stops 3rd RWY at VIE (LOWW)

Sat Feb 11, 2017 1:25 am

kalvado wrote:
VS11 wrote:
ScottB wrote:

I can't say I understand the logic unless the intent is to ultimately reduce the number of people flying to & from Vienna/Austria. Connecting traffic will simply flow through other airports and the net impact on CO2 emissions will be zero. In fact, emissions might ultimately be higher if congestion at VIE increases due to lack of adequate runway capacity.


The logic seems pretty straightforward. Decrease frequency and use bigger planes. Less is more.

And all connections should go through DXB. That way 2 or 3 daily A380 would cover all the bases. VIE-DXB-FRA is only 5200 miles detour!


What exactly is your point? I am pretty certain there are destinations out of Vienna that are served multiple times on some A320 derivative. They could be reduced by using a bigger aircraft.
 
kalvado
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Re: Austrian Courts Stops 3rd RWY at VIE (LOWW)

Sat Feb 11, 2017 2:05 am

VS11 wrote:
kalvado wrote:
VS11 wrote:

The logic seems pretty straightforward. Decrease frequency and use bigger planes. Less is more.

And all connections should go through DXB. That way 2 or 3 daily A380 would cover all the bases. VIE-DXB-FRA is only 5200 miles detour!


What exactly is your point? I am pretty certain there are destinations out of Vienna that are served multiple times on some A320 derivative. They could be reduced by using a bigger aircraft.

SO you suggest eliminating the competition? If not, and separate airlines still may run 3-4 flights a day, there is pretty much low teens to single digit number of flights which can be eliminated. And that wouldn't actually guarantee any fuel savings as well..
 
VS11
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Re: Austrian Courts Stops 3rd RWY at VIE (LOWW)

Sat Feb 11, 2017 6:28 am

kalvado wrote:
VS11 wrote:
kalvado wrote:
And all connections should go through DXB. That way 2 or 3 daily A380 would cover all the bases. VIE-DXB-FRA is only 5200 miles detour!


What exactly is your point? I am pretty certain there are destinations out of Vienna that are served multiple times on some A320 derivative. They could be reduced by using a bigger aircraft.

SO you suggest eliminating the competition? If not, and separate airlines still may run 3-4 flights a day, there is pretty much low teens to single digit number of flights which can be eliminated. And that wouldn't actually guarantee any fuel savings as well..


Austrian Airlines runs 7 flights a day to Zurich, 6 a day to Frankfurt, 5 a day to Berlin, 5 a day to Sofia, 4 a day to Paris. This is just a random sample. Yes, I think they can use fewer flights and bigger planes.
 
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eisenbach
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Re: Austrian Courts Stops 3rd RWY at VIE (LOWW)

Sat Feb 11, 2017 7:35 am

VS11 wrote:
kalvado wrote:
VS11 wrote:

Austrian Airlines runs 7 flights a day to Zurich, 6 a day to Frankfurt, 5 a day to Berlin, 5 a day to Sofia, 4 a day to Paris. This is just a random sample. Yes, I think they can use fewer flights and bigger planes.


If they reduce frequency to the LH Group hubs FRA and ZRH the connections would be not very tempting for travelers and a disadvantage. And believe me, I have to fly very often to FRA, the A319 to A321s are very, very full and frequently overbooked.

For sure, you could argue, that two flights a day with a B748 or a A380 would be environmental better. But just having one morning flight and one evening flight would be not accepted by business travelers as you have hours of "dead" waiting time or that you have to plan a hotel night. So immediately the competition would jump into that gap and offer again higher frequencies.

I have to fly as well quiet frequent from VIE to LEJ (Leipzig), where OS offers a early morning flight and one flight in the evening (about 7PM) back. As I don't want to wait a whole afternoon in Leipzig all the time, I mostly book a connection flight back to Vienna, in order to be back home at my family much earlier.
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PanHAM
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Re: Austrian Courts Stops 3rd RWY at VIE (LOWW)

Sat Feb 11, 2017 8:14 am

The fundamental error of the judges is, that flights which cannot take place at VIE will go to Bratislava or other Airports. Actually there will be more emissions than less because the trips by bus to BTS must be added. A calculation the judges most certainly have not made. The ruling will not save a single flight and hence not reduce an ounce of Emission gases. Another example of judges ruling from an ivory Tower.

On the hub to hub routes, larger planes are used already, usually A321 but 320s as well. Judges cannot decide which aircraft type shall be used, that is dictated by the market and a lot of growth has been absorbed by putting more seats intp These types. Obviousöly the judges did not ask the right advisors. They should have looked at the yellow pages.
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Cassi
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Re: Austrian Courts Stops 3rd RWY at VIE (LOWW)

Sat Feb 11, 2017 8:33 am

VS11 wrote:
kalvado wrote:
VS11 wrote:
Yes, I think they can use fewer flights and bigger planes.


Do you have any data to back up this claim? We are talking about CO2 emission per passenger kilometer. What I could find is: about 69.7g for an A330 flying from Stockholm to New York, and 108.6g for a 737-600 Swedish domestic flight. In practice, in case of a relatively short distance flight, there shouldn't be a significant difference.
 
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OA940
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Re: Austrian Courts Stops 3rd RWY at VIE (LOWW)

Sat Feb 11, 2017 9:02 am

Overprotective af.
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Aeroflot777
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Re: Austrian Courts Stops 3rd RWY at VIE (LOWW)

Sat Feb 11, 2017 10:20 am

This is just another BS law made to justify their presence in the court system, they've got to do something these days... Same reason the speed limit in Tirol on the Autobahn has been lowered and remains lowered at 100 km/hr. They also blame emissions concerns.
 
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PW100
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Re: Austrian Courts Stops 3rd RWY at VIE (LOWW)

Sat Feb 11, 2017 2:49 pm

Am I correct that this third runway is/was planned on terrain (much) higher that the current airport elevation? Would this require removal of the hill south of 11-29?
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VS11
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Re: Austrian Courts Stops 3rd RWY at VIE (LOWW)

Sat Feb 11, 2017 3:52 pm

eisenbach wrote:
If they reduce frequency to the LH Group hubs FRA and ZRH the connections would be not very tempting for travelers and a disadvantage. And believe me, I have to fly very often to FRA, the A319 to A321s are very, very full and frequently overbooked.

For sure, you could argue, that two flights a day with a B748 or a A380 would be environmental better. But just having one morning flight and one evening flight would be not accepted by business travelers as you have hours of "dead" waiting time or that you have to plan a hotel night. So immediately the competition would jump into that gap and offer again higher frequencies.

I have to fly as well quiet frequent from VIE to LEJ (Leipzig), where OS offers a early morning flight and one flight in the evening (about 7PM) back. As I don't want to wait a whole afternoon in Leipzig all the time, I mostly book a connection flight back to Vienna, in order to be back home at my family much earlier.


3 times with an A330 seems adequate to me. You are correct that just one airline doing is not going to work out. So the airport can introduce some fee structures to incentivize airlines to use fewer flights with bigger planes.
 
VS11
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Re: Austrian Courts Stops 3rd RWY at VIE (LOWW)

Sat Feb 11, 2017 4:11 pm

Cassi wrote:
Do you have any data to back up this claim? We are talking about CO2 emission per passenger kilometer. What I could find is: about 69.7g for an A330 flying from Stockholm to New York, and 108.6g for a 737-600 Swedish domestic flight. In practice, in case of a relatively short distance flight, there shouldn't be a significant difference.


ICAO has a CO2 calculator, which is per pax depending on variety of factors:
http://www.icao.int/environmental-prote ... fault.aspx

They have also published a pretty good document explaining how the calculator works:
http://www.icao.int/environmental-prote ... 9_2016.pdf

Appendix C of the document contains a pretty detailed table how much each aircraft burns over various distances. This is a good table to use for rough estimates even though engine type would most definitely be a factor as well.
 
redcap1962
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Re: Austrian Courts Stops 3rd RWY at VIE (LOWW)

Sat Feb 11, 2017 5:31 pm

First the airport will make an "Extraordinary Revision" at the Administrative Court, then most probably go to the Constitutional Court, which is the last possible level. The thing is: Compliance with maximum quantities of carbon dioxide levels is part of the Austrian constitution:
https://www.parlament.gv.at/PAKT/VHG/XXIV/I/I_01255/
Hence, whatever the Constitutional Court will decide, their judges have to do it on the basis of the Austrian constitution 8-) .

Recent quote by an Austrian lawyer (not specifically regarding that case): Going to court is like sailing the seas - you never know how it's gonna end!

As for the expansion: Currently holdings before landing or long line-ups before take-off are the absolute exception at VIE. They might occur during very adverse weather conditions, like strong winds or heavy snowfall. Air Berlin will reduce VIE very much soon, cancelling most of their city-shuttle flights. Holiday-destinations will remain (merger with TUIfly), but even those may be less than before. This first of all will reduce passenger-frequency. It remains to be seen, if, at what time and to which extent other carriers (other than from the LH-Group) will take over. (Of course I am aware that plannings such as an additional RWY include a long period of time...)

The proposed position of the 3rd RWY:
http://www.viennaairport.com/jart/prj3/ ... ftbild.pdf
The hill south of 11/29 will have to be rermoved or lowered significantly.

Let's hope, if 11R/29L comes, that VIE will at least install the one or other spotting-location... :airplane:
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lancelot07
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Re: Austrian Courts Stops 3rd RWY at VIE (LOWW)

Sat Feb 11, 2017 5:38 pm

Aeroflot777 wrote:
This is just another BS law made to justify their presence in the court system, they've got to do something these days... Same reason the speed limit in Tirol on the Autobahn has been lowered and remains lowered at 100 km/hr. They also blame emissions concerns.

Exactly! Austrian courts are infested by Greens and their idiotic opinions.
 
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PatrickZ80
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Re: Austrian Courts Stops 3rd RWY at VIE (LOWW)

Sat Feb 11, 2017 7:21 pm

They obviously haven't learned that you can't reduce air traffic, people will always be flying. We've seen this before in the Netherlands during the flight taxes. Whilst the number of passengers at Amsterdam slightly reduced, Weeze (just across the border in Germany) saw significant growth. All together there were just as many passengers flying, they were just avoiding the Dutch airports because of the taxes. Eventually the taxes got scrapped because they did nothing to reduce the number of passengers. They wouldn't fly less, they would only fly different.

In Austria it's not the taxes, it's the lack of a runway that limits the growth of air travel. But people won't fly less because of it. As already said, they'll use Bratislava as an alternative for Vienna. There's plenty of capacity left in Bratislava. This may limit the amount of traffic in Vienna, but doesn't limit the amount of traffic overall.
 
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atypical
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Re: Austrian Courts Stops 3rd RWY at VIE (LOWW)

Mon Feb 13, 2017 7:13 pm

Something I have wondered about is commercial aviation pollution contributions. Is there data anywhere that shows what percentage of pollutants commercial aviation is responsible for on a regional and worldwide basis? I don't see anything wrong with an attempt to reduce pollutants in general but I find it silly when attacking it from the side diminished returns. For an example attempting to regulate pollution improvements from an industry that contributes so little to the problem the pollution situation would remain unchanged if that industry disappeared. I am not indicating this is or is not the situation with the commercial aviation industry because I don't know, and that is my problem.

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